SHUPirate1
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Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:07 pm

I would think that a GREAT way to make things more bearable for the passengers going to London from Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, New York, Orlando, Tampa, and Washington would be to have a mini-hub with six 757's, and one 747 that would connect in Bermuda for flights to London, and additionally, could capture some O&D traffic between the United States and continental Europe.

Potential setup:

Flights to/from the US: ATL, DFW, IAH, LGA, MCO (747), TPA, DCA

Flights to/from Europe: LHR (747), MAN, MAD, CDG, LIS, BCN, AMS

The idea here is as follows:
1) None of these airports have service to London-Heathrow, either being served to Gatwick, or from, in the cases of LGA and DCA, respectively, either JFK/EWR or IAD/BWI.

2) None of these passengers would have the hassle of clearing immigration formalities in either the overly congested arrivals halls of London-Heathrow and London-Gatwick or the US airports, as Bermuda has facilities for both British and US entry formalities.

3) As this would be the case, it would stand to reason that it would be GREAT for the price-insensitive, time-sensitive transatlantic passenger, and thus would ultimately be successful.

Just a thought, however, I wanted to throw this out there for thought.
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cha747
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:11 pm

SHUPirate - I see your logic....is there a market for it? And if so, would Americans REALLY get upset with the UK and just tear-up Bermuda II because now LHR would be connected to airports like LGA and DCA in a situation where it would be nearly impossible for US carriers to compete? Interesting idea nonetheless.
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LAXintl
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:17 pm

BA did operate BDA-JFK in the past.

BDA however on its own is a relatively small market, and is quite seasonal. Would be a waste of resources for BA to invest setting up a hub even if it was with narrow body aircraft.

In addition the terminal facilities including customs/immigration in BDA are not well suited for a hub like operation with multiple arrivals and departures within a brief period.

Lastly why would anyone wish to stop enroute in BDA when many of the cities you mentioned can be reached directly?
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SHUPirate1
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:19 pm

Laxintl-Because none of those airports can be served directly from Heathrow, and, like I mentioned, the customs boondoggle at Heathrow/Gatwick/the US airports would be avoided.
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toltommy
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:25 pm

Who says it has to be BA? Could be an interesting business model for a BDA based LCC. As a British subject, it would have access to LHR. Only problem I see is available space at BDA for a real hub operation (BDA uses ramp access to/from aircraft, not jetways), and that there is little BDA O&D given that the population of BDA is less than 80,000 residents. But it is an interesting idea, nonetheless.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 3):
Laxintl-Because none of those airports can be served directly from Heathrow, and, like I mentioned, the customs boondoggle at Heathrow/Gatwick/the US airports would be avoided.

While indeed the airports might not be able to connect to LHR, the cities are still linked with London.

Also for the record, Bermuda is not considered a domestic flight from the UK. Thus one could not clear immigration/customs at Bermuda. One must still clear customs/immigration upon arrival in the UK mainland.

Even UK citizens require a valid passport for travel to Bermuda, as Bermuda is its own country.
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roseflyer
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:31 pm

It is an interesting move. It is kind of like what Air Tahiti Nui is doing with its PPT hub. It primarily caters to O/D traffic, but is looking for connections for people from the US to Australia/New Zealand as a growth point.

It is a crazy idea, but it could work as an LCC type thing. Everyone transfers in BDA. It would kind of work like the NRT hub for UA and NW. The only bad thing is that the BDA doesn't have enough demand, especially on business. BDA could be used like Iceland and establish a mid ocean hub for low fare travelers.
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keno
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:33 pm

Extra flights between the US and Bermuda could be a good idea as the market is clearly there, e.g. there are now 4 daily flights between JFK/EWR and the island resort alone.

However, the same cannot be said for Europe. London only has 5 weekly flights to BDA (on 777). If the demand to/from the "mother country" is only that much compared to the US, how could you expect flights to/from CDG & AMS to work? Worst still, places like LIS, MAD and BCN have fantastic (and cheap) resorts in their own countries without having to travel far, espcially not to an expensive island like Bermuda.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
It would kind of work like the NRT hub for UA and NW.

Yes in principle, but in NW/UA's case, there's a high demand on both legs of the journey: US-Japan & Japan-Asia. So the hub at NRT is a huge success. When you talk about Bermuda, it's mostly US-BDA only.

Any given route cannot depend solely or mostly on connecting traffic. The O&D demand must be there too. The hub & spoke model you'd find in the US cannot possibly work in this case.

[Edited 2005-03-27 06:44:46]
 
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yyz717
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Interesting idea, but people want nonstops from the US to the UK. BDA is also not mid-ocean, it is barely 600mi from the SC coast so distance-wise, the 752 would be hardpressed to perform the BDA-LHR leg.

Interestly, BA used to fly to BDA from cities such as JFK and YUL in the 60's. Even in the 80's, the nonstop BDA-LGW L10 service was rerouted briefly as BDA-BWI-LGW.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Why would London Airways have any interest in this?

...would've been an interesting proposition for sir Dickie should he (have) fail(ed) to find American investers for his proposed startup.
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SHUPirate1
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:43 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 8):
distance-wise, the 752 would be hardpressed to perform the BDA-LHR leg

Yyz717-Might want to check your numbers...CLE-LGW is nearly 300nm further than BDA-LHR, and CO flies the preceeding route during the summer...all of those routes are well within the 757's range for BDA...
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yyz717
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:55 pm

With the 180 minute rule, and seasonal wind differences, the BDA-LHR route might still be a problem for the 752. Or maybe not.

Anyway, I misread the thread. The idea was BDA-based 752's for US ops.  Smile
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:00 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 11):
With the 180 minute rule, and seasonal wind differences, the BDA-LHR route might still be a problem for the 752.

Based on what?

...the route is completely within ETOPS120, let alone 138/180.
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A330323X
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:03 pm

Putting aside the (ridiculous) nature of the proposal, keep in mind that Bermuda II specifies which U.S. points can have nonstop service to BDA on U.S. airlines, and which U.S. points can have nonstop service to BDA on U.K. airlines. As with the LON lists, there have been some additions and substitutions (with a bit more flexibility by the parties than with LON), but the restrictions exist nevertheless.

IIRC, U.S. airlines are permitted by the bilateral to fly to BDA from ATL, BOS, BWI, CHI, DTW, EWR, FLL, MIA, NYC, PHL, WAS. The U.S. and U.K. have exchanged letters permitting CLT and MCO to be used as U.S. gateways on an extrabilateral basis, with U.K. airlines due the same courtesies. RDU was originally a gateway, but it was substituted with ACY, which was then substituted with FLL. I'm not sure of the U.K. list of gateways.
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hiflyer
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:06 pm

Been involved with BDA...dang interesting idea but I think the natives would want to talk to you quietly if it ever got proposed...grin.

There are only 8 hardstands at the terminal...and only 2 possibly for the 747/777 size aircraft. Fuel is not cheap on BDA...gas is about $6 usd/gal! Jetfuel is cheaper by far...less tax on it...but still not cheap...

Terminal has no jetways...larger boarding area for US traffic and only one small area for non US traffic. 1 767 can swamp BDA customs which probably is why the steel band is there to play. Outbound US customs has some lanes at best and remember you have to have your bags with you to clear......and then back to aircraft. 1 747 alone could strangle the place.

No caterer left at the airport by the way. Hotel is assisting the BA LGW trip.

Only 1 runway so crosswinds shut the place down...no other airport on the island so US-BDA trips have to have roundtrip fuel when leaving the states.

it's 20 miles shorter BDA-LGw than it is JFK-LGW. BDA is more 'on the way' for se us flying to europe as well as central america and carib area flying.
 
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posti
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:11 pm

Isn't this basically the model of FI, Trans-Atlantic flights with a hub in the middle of the ocean? Seems to work for them, why not Bermuda Air or even Azores Air for that matter.
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LAXintl
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:13 pm

Besides marketing issues, the logistics of BDA airport are terrible for a hub operation. The facilities are way too small to cope with multiple arrivals or departures within a short time frame.

And dont even consider expansion. Room is near non existent, and the locals would likely oppose such moves anyways.

Here is a nice aerial view of the airport.


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LAXintl
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RE: Totally Outside-the-box Suggestion: BA Hub At BDA

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:26 pm

Quoting Posti (Reply 15):
Isn't this basically the model of FI, Trans-Atlantic flights with a hub in the middle of the ocean? Seems to work for them, why not Bermuda Air or even Azores Air for that matter.

Some differences between Bermuda and Iceland are as follows.

1 - Icleand falls generally within the great circle route between Europe and North America
2 - Icelands population is nearly 300,000. Several times larger than Bermuda which thus provides a much larger O&D demand.
3 - Icleand has strong cultural ties to Europe and strong business ties with both both sides of the Atlantic
4 - Iceland has a thriving fishing industry which fuels a demand for air cargo.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California