komododx
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AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:18 am

AV and LA a/c touched each other's wings on entering the active rwy for takeoff. Some delays happened and the passengers had to be taken back to the terminal by bus. No word yet if the a/c's can still fly or might need repairs.

Click here for the article (Spanish only).

Can any of the Colombians provide more details or some pics?

Stefano
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A388
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:50 am

Thanks for the article Komododx,

However, I don't understand how two aircraft can "collide" or touch each other's wingtips while entering an active runway. Don't these aircraft taxi behind each other during such a procedure? Even when turning I still don't quite understand it as the aircraft are lined up behind each other, therefor it would be impossible that the wintips touch each other. There's quite a lot of room between a runway and a taxiway, right?

Anyway, I'm interested in knowing what exactly happened. Gracias para la informacion amigo  Smile

A388
 
TACAA320
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:59 am

Thanks for the article. Nevertheless, as A388 said, it's not very clear about how do they collided. Thanks God there are no casualties at all.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
bogota
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:04 am

I would tend to think that as the end of the taxiways in Bogota as you enter any of the two runways, their is a wider holding area where two aircraft can stop parallel to each other so to optimize the use of the runways. I would assume that is where the incident happened, clearly one aircraft must have been at the holding point first as the other arrived there was a miscalculation, either the first one was too far back at the holding point, or the second one turned sooner that he should into his holding point.
 
A388
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:09 am

That clears it up a bit more, thanks Bogota. Waiting on more details and hopefully there are some photos of this incident as well  Smile

A388
 
komododx
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting Bogota (Reply 3):
I would tend to think that as the end of the taxiways in Bogota as you enter any of the two runways, their is a wider holding area where two aircraft can stop parallel to each other so to optimize the use of the runways. I would assume that is where the incident happened, clearly one aircraft must have been at the holding point first as the other arrived there was a miscalculation, either the first one was too far back at the holding point, or the second one turned sooner that he should into his holding point.

That's what I thought. I know at MIA and FLL they have this wide area, sometimes I also see a/c "jumping" the line for t/o and I assume this is also done if someone is behind schedule. I do not recall seeing this in BOG thought. Check these two pics out (Assuming 13L/R were used, as 31L/R are rarely active):

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=356


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ray Harvey



Stefano

[Edited 2005-03-28 00:34:35]
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RCS763AV
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:18 am

What planes were those??? I assume it was an AV 767-200ER as it was going to MIA and the LA plane an A320 or 7663?????
 
PPVRA
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:31 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 6):
What planes were those??? I assume it was an AV 767-200ER as it was going to MIA and the LA plane an A320 or 7663?????

The article says both are boeings.

Really strange incident, but it sounds to me it's just a mistake on the part of the media and both planes were probably backing out of the gates or something like that...
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
bogota
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:02 am

I am not sure about 13R, but for sure 13L has it as I remember being at that holding point with a plane on my side.
 
JUANR
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:15 am

I just saw the images at Caracol Noticias, there is no mistake in the media, the incident happened at the holding point of runway 13L (runway 13R is closed due to maintenance) when both airplanes were side by side, as written before, on the wide area used to optimized departures. This area is really wide and certainly can handle two large boeings side by side so one of the pilots is to blame; which one? It is hard to say news are not that clear and the images do not let us see the yellow lines. Both Lan and Avianca pilots are very professional.

On the other side, a WCA Let-410 crashed Saturday morning at Providencia Island, the plane was on scheduled flight from Providencia to San Andres Island and 8 people died. Later on the day an emergency was declared on an MD-81 flying from ADZ-MDE-BOG route before landing at MDE where the oxygen masks fell and had to be used by the passengers. No explanation was given by the very rude crew and captain and those passengers flying to BOG demanded a new plane for the MDE-BOG leg; the incident took place at 4:00pm and the passengers finally arrived to BOG at midnight.

These are bad news for WCA which image certainly is going down, before these two incidents El Espectador newspaper had published an article about Colombian Air Safety where they said that inspectors from Aeronautica Civil Colombiana found that the airline broke 14 rules of the Aeronautical Code, including lack of crew-training, lack of maintenance of planes, exceeding the flight times, etc, etc, etc, That is not an airline I would fly at all.

Source: http://www.elespectador.com/periodismo_inv/2005/marzo/nota3.htm

Juan
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komododx
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:05 pm

Quoting JUANR (Reply 9):
These are bad news for WCA which image certainly is going down, before these two incidents El Espectador newspaper had published an article about Colombian Air Safety where they said that inspectors from Aeronautica Civil Colombiana found that the airline broke 14 rules of the Aeronautical Code, including lack of crew-training, lack of maintenance of planes, exceeding the flight times, etc, etc, etc, That is not an airline I would fly at all.

Wow! I did read about the crash on the San Andres-Providencia route. This is really bad, especially breaking the AeroCivil routes. I had only heard good things about West... too bad!

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komododx
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:12 pm

Here is the pic from El Tiempo



Stefano
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kc135topboom
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:35 pm

There is leading edge damage to the B-767 on the right, and trailing edge damage for the one on the left. Looks like the guy on the right caused the incident. B-767s are not known for the ability to back up (unless they are rolling down an incline).

Fortunately the damage looks worse than it actually is.
 
komododx
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:57 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Looks like the guy on the right caused the incident.

Yup. According to the extended article on El Tiempo it was AV's pilot's fault.

Stefano
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757MDE
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:21 pm

That El Espectador article has errors, as usual with journalists trying to write about Aviation.
The West accident is not a good thing, but I'd still fly the Airline.
Incidents happen lots of times, the one of the masks is just another one, I mean, if it was for that I wouldn't fly AV P5 AA or any Airline, I don't there's one that hasn't had their attention called by the Aviation Authority of their country..it doesn't necessarily mean that it's unsafe...

As for the current investigations, I'll wait.
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RCS763AV
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:59 pm

Hey the LA plane was pretty empty huh....
 
OB1504
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:05 am

Am I right in guessing that the LAN aircraft involved in the incident is CC-CEB? The letters on the nose gear door look like "CE" and then a letter that I can't read. It can't be CC-CEN because she still has "LAN Chile" titles and this aircraft only has "LAN" titles. Interestingly, CC-CEB has a Peruvian flag over the registration.


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komododx
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:52 am



Stefano
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JUANR
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:55 am

it looks like it was the AV's pilot foult, Take a look at El Tiempo Web PAge where you can find the audio file in which the AV pilot tell the people on board what is going on and apologizes for the situation he has created for the passengers.

Juan
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757MDE
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:21 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 16):
Interestingly, CC-CEB has a Peruvian flag over the registration.

Must be one of LAN's known ways for overriding certain rules...
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danimarroquin
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:56 am

The AV plane , which 767 was it?
 
ghost77
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:41 am

Does anybody know the registrations?

Ricardo APM
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RJ_Delta
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:19 am

LAN's 767-300ER affected is the CC-CEB painted with old color scheme using only the word Lan. The 763 will return to Santiago today, and the passenger will continuing its flight to Lima and Santiago in a A320 CC-COC (special charter), that the company send to Colombia to carry all the passengers.
 
av757
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:13 am

The airplanes involved in the collision yesterday are:

LAN registry CC-CEB, Boeing 767-316ER, c/n 26327, l/n 621.

AV registry N985AN, Boeing 767-259ER, c/n 24618, l/n 292.

Both airplanes are grounded and out of service for now until a painstaking and time consuming inspection procedure of the wings off both aircraft are completed to asses the damage that may have occurred to the structure and to give a verdict on the repair needed to allow both planes to fly safely again.

The LAN airplane is parked at the international remote ramp, and the AV is in hangar 1 at AV maintenance with the left wing damaged areas removed and dismantled for inspection and damage evaluation. So far it seems that N985AN will be out of service for approximately one month while repairs are executed.

Investigation of the incident is in process by the Colombian Aeronautical Authorities and by both AV and LAN Flight Safety Divisions. It is not clear yet how both airplanes collided at the marked narrow holding point of RWY 13L.

It seems that the recently painted yellow taxi lines do not comply with the minimum specific wing clearance distance of two wide body airplanes side by side at the holding bay, as in RWY 31R holding bay; where the limitation exists and is published on the airport charts.

The LAN airplane was parked on the left side of the holding bay waiting for take-off clearance, while AV was cleared to taxi from behind and on the right side of the holding bay into RWY 13L for take-off when the incident occurred.

I will pass on the official results when an official verdict is published after the investigation.

Regards:
AV757
 
OB1504
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:44 am

Does anyone know when CC-CEB will be back in service or how LAN flights with B763 equipment will be affected? I'm taking flight LP 0510 LIM-MIA tomorrow morning, and I wanted to know if there was any chance of the flight being delayed, cancelled, or at best, upgraded to A343 equipment. Big grin
 
bongo
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:21 pm

Quoting AV757 (Reply 23):
So far it seems that N985AN will be out of service for approximately one month while repairs are executed.

Thanks AV757, as always, your info is very valuable. AV will take "advantage" of the situation to repaint the a/c with the new livery ?
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komododx
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:13 pm

Quoting Bongo (Reply 25):
AV will take "advantage" of the situation to repaint the a/c with the new livery ?

This is the first thing that popped to mind when I read what AV757 posted. What will the use to replace this 762 for a whole month?

What's the status of the new livery on other a/c? IIRC there was another 752 in the paint shop.

Also, what's the status of the F-100's?

Keep us posted AV757

Stefano
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TACAA320
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:53 pm

Hopefully there was no casualties to regret. Nevertheless the AV pilot apparently has many reasons to be worry about.

[Edited 2005-03-29 06:07:23]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
adriaticus
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:20 pm

I saw CC-CEB parked out there from BOG's gate 6 of the international concourse, earlier today. I was able to snap a couple of pictures before someone came to tell me something about I shouldn't be taking photographs of the "damaged airplane". Then I boarded my BOG-MEX flight from gate 8. I'll try to post those pictures here in a-net (would be my first posting). Even from the distance, the damage to the wing is noticeable.

While in BOG, I heard the message the AV B762 pilot told his passengers, recorded by the popular Colombian cartoonist Vladdo, who was on board the flight. The pilot sounded not only deeply concerned, but sincerely sorry and embarrassed. I felt a great deal of sympathy for him.

The airport was quick to declare the control tower had no responsibility whatsoever in the incident. Interesting, however, what AV757 mentions...

Quoting AV757 (Reply 23):
It seems that the recently painted yellow taxi lines do not comply with the minimum specific wing clearance distance of two wide body airplanes side by side at the holding bay,

Let's see what the conclusions of the investigation are. Either way, this will be a very costly mistake for whoever ends up being responsible.

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av757
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:34 pm

The control tower issues instructions and clearances for taxi, pushback, take-off and many other details during airplane ground operations.

But the sole responsibility of maneuvering the aircraft at any time under its own power is on the captains shoulders.

Historically speaking this is not the first incident of this type that has occurred at the holding bay of RWY 13L, many years ago a Colombian Air Force C130 Hercules also hit an Iberia DC10 that was parked in the same position as Lan's 767; the damage done to the DC10 wing was of larger proportions since there was wing fuel tank rupture and spillage during the collision.

AV757

P.S.
I will try to find out more specific details on the damage that occurred to both aircraft wings and a possible repair time to see how long both airplanes are going to be grounded.
 
MATURRO727
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:35 am

Hey.


Thanks again AV757

regards

MATURRO727
 
bongo
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:52 am

According to this week's Semana ( www.semana.com.co ) the cost of fixing AV's wing is around USD$ 1 million. Why is that expensive? If it was just a touch it seems like its pure metal, or is there any expensive device inside the wing's end?

[Edited 2005-04-05 18:20:20]
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Summa767
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:42 am

Bongo, what section of Semana is this info in? Do you have a direct link?
How long do they say the airplane will be out of service?
I wonder if such an amount takes into account the lost revenue as a result of the aicraft downtime, as well as the physical repairs?
 
bongo
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:45 am

Summa767:

Saw it on the printed version of Semana Magazine... in a page where they show figures and other stuff, title: " La Cifra".
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Summa767
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RE: AV & LA Incident At BOG

Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:22 am

That's a section that is not on the online version.
Well, I hope that plane is flyng very soon, as lots of new flights seem to be on the cards!