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northwestEWR
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Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:35 am

Can i buy a ticket on Qantas for JFK - LAX and back or do i have to fly to Sydney from LAX ??
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Avianca
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:37 am

fly to Sydney via LAX.
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northwestEWR
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:40 am

so i cant buy a ticket for just JFK - LAX ?

DAMN !!! wanted to fly QF !
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Avianca
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:43 am

sadly yes.

regards
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northwestEWR
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:53 am

Couldnt QF make a little extra $$ if they did ticket passengers on JFK - LAX ?
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Avianca
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:56 am

Quoting NorthwestEWR (Reply 4):
Couldnt QF make a little extra $$ if they did ticket passengers on JFK - LAX ?

problem is to get the right to sell tickets.
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daron4000
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:19 am

Too bad because that would be exciting to the route, although it would greatly hurt UA's new PS service, aimed at high yield pax. Are there any international airlines that you can fly between two American cities? I know Cathay, but I was wondering about any others.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 6):
Are there any international airlines that you can fly between two American cities? I know Cathay

No foreign carrier, including Cathay, sells domestic tickets wholly within the U.S. End of story.
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rjpieces
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:23 am

I know Cathay, but I was wondering about any others.

Last time I checked, Vancouver wasn't an American city!

Are there any international airlines that you can fly between two American cities?

Off the top of my head, I don't think any foreign airlines have the rights to fly US pax domestically. There are foreign airlines that fly flights between US cities (but not able to sell tix to pax going between those two cities)--Saudi Arabian IAD-JFK is an example.
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nycflyer
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:23 am

are you sure about Cathay? I know you can (or at least, could) fly JFK-YVR, but are there two US destinations you can fly between on CX?
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:27 am

LAS-YVR ticket on Philippines (340) is doable.
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Avianca
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:29 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 10):
LAS-YVR ticket on Philippines (340) is doable.

but it is also US-Canada not a domestic US flight.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:30 am

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 9):
are you sure about Cathay? I know you can (or at least, could) fly JFK-YVR



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 10):
LAS-YVR ticket on Philippines (340) is doable.

Gentlemen, in case you haven't noticed, YVR=Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. Not part of the United States.

Thank you.  Smile
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Pe@rson
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:32 am

Yes, I am well aware of the country in which YVR is located. However, having established that foreign airlines do not seem to be granted permission to carry passengers on domestic US flights, I decided to submit a close alternative.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Gemuser
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:40 am

QF do not have domestic rights LAX-JFK-LAX, all tickets must be part of an international iteniary.

As well the flight is an international one even if that sector is wholley within one countries domestic airspace and so you must have a passport. Normally on flights like this only pax leaving the flight at the first point of entry would clear Customs & Immigration there, the rest would do so at the final point. That the way it works in most of the world and did with this flight before 911, not now tho.

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JET1977
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:37 am

If you were looking to go to LAX in a round about way, you could fly up to YYZ and then take El Al to LAX.
 
AirlineBrat
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:55 am

What you are referring to is called Cabotage. That allows a foreign carrier to transport passengers between two US domestic cities. It is not allowed and the US carriers lobyists would fight it all the way. Stinks since it would allow American citizens the choice of flying on a better quality carrier if they so chose. Qantas provides far superior service than any US carrier today.... in coach. But instead, the biggest competition out there is to provide the worst level of service possible for the lowest airfare.... Except for JetBlue and Southwest.

I also support cabotage for another reason. To fly from Anchorage to New York City, you have to change planes or stop somewhere.. often several times depending on the carrier. That means the shortest flight from ANC to EWR is 10-11 hours. There are several Asian carriers that fly from ANC to EWR/JFK non-stop. A non-stop flight would only take 7 1/2 hours depending on what direction you are flying. Alaskan travelers are not allowed to take advantage of that. Bah Humbug. I hated the 12-15 hour marathon flights on Delta from FAI-EWR (FAI-ANC-SEA/SLC-ATL/DFW/CIN-EWR). That was back in the 80's and 90's, I guess thing are slightly better now during the summer, but AS runs the show during the winter so airfares are really high 8 months of the year. Delta always had you changing flights in DFW or ATL. Might as well changed planes in Mexico City....
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N1120A
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:11 am

Quoting NorthwestEWR (Reply 4):
Couldnt QF make a little extra $$ if they did ticket passengers on JFK - LAX ?

As has been said, they would have to have the 8th Freedom (Cabotage rights) to carry US domestic PAX. Currently, no airline has that right. As for connecting in another country, that is not allowed either, as Asiana found out when they were carrying citizens of Saipan (US Territory) to the US mainland and undercutting NW and CO. They were carrying them through SEL, often times on 2 seperate tickets, but were fined big time because of it
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STT757
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting AirlineBrat (Reply 16):
There are several Asian carriers that fly from ANC to EWR/JFK non-stop

There might still be one, but not "Several". With 777s and A340-500s Anchorage stops are mostly all cargo flights.

CO was flying nonstop EWR-Anchorage for two Summers, if there was that much demand they would be serving the route nonstop every Summer.

Offering cabotage rights to foreign airlines is a joke, it would have nothing but negative effects for Americans. Foreign carriers get access to the US Domestic market which is by far the largest aviation market in the World, and what do US carriers get in return?..

The right to fly between Munich and Stuttgart?...

Im sorry but there are no other same Country route pairs that are as large as NYC-Florida, NYC-Chicago, NYC-LAX, NYC-SFO, Chicago-LAX, Houston-Dallas etc..

London-Manchester?

Hamburg-Dusseldorf?

Paris-Lyon?..

No where's near as close to NYC-Florida, NYC-Chicago, NYC-LAX. There's a reason why all the foreign carriers are begging for access to the US Domestic market and not one single US carrier has asked the US to negotiate for similar rights anywhere else.
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ACB777
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:48 pm

Is it possible to fly from SEA-IAH on China Airlines?
 
ahlfors
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:50 pm

Is it possible to book a stopover on QFs flight? Say fly QF MEL/SYD-LAX, stop for a couple days, continue QF LAX-JFK, and on the return fly QF JFK-LAX, stop for a couple days, continue LAX-SYD/MEL. ?
 
rjpieces
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:55 pm

Is it possible to book a stopover on QFs flight? Say fly QF MEL/SYD-LAX, stop for a couple days, continue QF LAX-JFK, and on the return fly QF JFK-LAX, stop for a couple days, continue LAX-SYD/MEL. ?


I'm pretty sure you can, but not 100% sure.
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LAXintl
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:02 pm

While cabotage within the US is a political hot potato, I would argue that is would ultimately benefit the US consumer.

With the ability to sell seats between two domestic points, several smaller and interior cities within the US would gain the benefit of direct air service by foreign airlines.

For instance look at medium sized cities like New Orleans, St Louis, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Kansas City etc.. whom all currently lack direct intercontinental flights.
As a hypothetical with the ability to pick up domestic fill up traffic could allow BA to operate LON-DEN-PHX, LON-IAD-MSY or an Asian airline to operate NRT-SFO-SLC.

I doubt a handful of internal US segments being operated by foreign airlines could be even close to damaging to the US mainline carriers.

One must remember not every foreign airline would even be interested in taking up such rights of flying large widebodies on tag on legs.

US unions have for years complained that domestic cabotage would lead to a loss of US jobs. From my point if anything US cabotage could lead to an increase in employment and economic stimulus. These foreign carriers would have staffing needs at their new US destinations, provide increased tax revenue for the airports and lastly lead to increased foreign business and tourism which all equal increase economic activity.
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AirlineBrat
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:17 pm

I am really enjoying this conversation as I have toyed around with the concept of Cabotage since I was a nerdy teenage airplane geek.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
There might still be one, but not "Several". With 777s and A340-500s Anchorage stops are mostly all cargo flights.

You got me on "Several". The number of foreign passenger carriers flying the ANC-EWR/JFK route has varied over the years. I know Korean and China Airlines have flown the route and I know there have been others but I have been studying for an exam and didn't have the time to do an intensive web-research.


I agree that CO didn't have the loads to continue that route this summer but if there are empty seats on a foreign carrier flying that route, why can't I sit in that seat? It's empty and the plane is going where I want to go nonstop. Instead I am a victim of foreign politics and I have to go through West Timbuktu to get to my destination.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
doubt a handful of internal US segments being operated by foreign airlines could be even close to damaging to the US mainline carriers.

One must remember not every foreign airline would even be interested in taking up such rights of flying large widebodies on tag on legs.

US unions have for years complained that domestic cabotage would lead to a loss of US jobs. From my point if anything US cabotage could lead to an increase in employment and economic stimulus. These foreign carriers would have staffing needs at their new US destinations, provide increased tax revenue for the airports and lastly lead to increased foreign business and tourism which all equal increase economic activity.

Laxintl, well said. I agree with you. Very few foreign airlines would take advantage of Cabotage or at least it would be in a handful of cases. Like I said, the only reason an airline would do that was to fill empty seats. Their main focus of international transport. This would be a small percentage of their revenue. It is interesting that existing companies in any discipline scream and yell about competition but then when it happens their revenue increases. Case in point.... The Southwest Effect. Airfares are too high and few people travel. Competition comes in and airfares drop. The outcome is that passenger loads increase for all the competitors. The reason that SWA ends up with most of the pie is that the legacies will offer a comparable airfare but place a bunch of Rube Goldberg style rules in the plane ticket fineprint and things get complicated and expensive.... thus the consumer goes to the least complicated carrier. The thing is, I doubt that foreign carries would undercut US Carriers. Airfares would be more expensive and it is the people that Primaris is after who would pay a little more for an international travel experience.
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planespotting
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:24 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):

For instance look at medium sized cities like New Orleans, St Louis, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Kansas City etc.. whom all currently lack direct intercontinental flights.

doesn't phoenix still have BA to LHR? when did they discontinue that? I was there in November and saw the 777. I haven't heard anything about it since then.
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boeingforever
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:35 pm

im flying EWR-MIA on LY next week
 
LAXintl
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:48 pm

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 24):
doesn't phoenix still have BA to LHR? when did they discontinue that? I was there in November and saw the 777. I haven't heard anything about it since then.

No BA is still in Phoenix.

Just making a general point that many mid size cities lack intercontinental connections and could greatly benefit with cabotage.
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LAXintl
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:50 pm

Quoting BoeingForEver (Reply 25):
im flying EWR-MIA on LY next week

But El Al is uable to carry local revenue passengers between EWR and MIA. Only online connection passengers.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
boeingforever
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:54 pm

i have a mileage ticket..and i split up the legs
 
LAXintl
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:07 pm

Quoting BoeingForEver (Reply 28):
i have a mileage ticket..and i split up the legs

Exactly, you could not buy a EWR-MIA ticket on EL AL. You have an award ticket as part of an international itinerary. You are considered an online passenger, with a stop over.


For instance I have flown Qantas LAX-JFK-LAX, Philippine Airlines LAX-HNL, EL AL LAX-JFK-LAX over the years however all as a nonrev passenger. To save my life I could not buy a revenue ticket between the two domestic points solely on these foreign airlines.
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texdravid
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:18 pm

Allowing cabotage to foreign carriers would be like allowing sabotage!!

I know, it's silly, but oh well!! Humor wasn't strong point!!
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6thfreedom
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:03 pm

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 20):
Is it possible to book a stopover on QFs flight? Say fly QF MEL/SYD-LAX, stop for a couple days, continue QF LAX-JFK, and on the return fly QF JFK-LAX, stop for a couple days, continue LAX-SYD/MEL. ?

Yes. Just make sure that the conditions on the fare, especially if its a resticted economy class fare, allows more than one stopover/transit.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
Offering cabotage rights to foreign airlines is a joke, it would have nothing but negative effects for Americans. Foreign carriers get access to the US Domestic market which is by far the largest aviation market in the World, and what do US carriers get in return?..

The right to fly between Munich and Stuttgart?...

Im sorry but there are no other same Country route pairs that are as large as NYC-Florida, NYC-Chicago, NYC-LAX, NYC-SFO, Chicago-LAX, Houston-Dallas etc..

London-Manchester?

Hamburg-Dusseldorf?

Paris-Lyon?..

As a city pair, Sydney-Melbourne has more pax movements per year compared to most US city pairs. I think the sector is top 3 in the world, behind osaka-tokyo, and one other.
 
B707Stu
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:32 pm

I don't see 5th freedom rights coming to foreign carries on US soil anytime soon. Once that door is open someone like Sir Richard or AF/KL would jump on the market.
 
CXYYZ
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:46 pm

AC have been pushing the Canadian government pretty hard to open up the Free Skies agreement between the US and Canada to include cabotage. AC would love to build itself in the US domestic market. Also, a number of Canadian politicians are open to the idea of allowing foreign carriers into Canada, but on the condition that any such carrier's home country be willing to allow Canadian carriers (read: Air Canada) to fly domestically there as well.
 
iwok
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:14 pm

Don't most countries have cabotage laws? I thought it was standard practice.

I don't see what good loosening the cabotage regulations would do for the US. Clearly, airlines serving predominantly smaller markets would greatly benefit, but there would be little to offer the US airlines.

Quoting AirlineBrat (Reply 23):
Very few foreign airlines would take advantage of Cabotage or at least it would be in a handful of cases. Like I said, the only reason an airline would do that was to fill empty seats. Their main focus of international transport.

How can you be sure that they are only interested in international transport? Take Air Canada for example; they could very well set up a full network within the US. BA, LH etc could all do this. Cabotage would do no good for the US airline industry.

iwok
 
LAXintl
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:28 pm

Quoting Iwok (Reply 34):
How can you be sure that they are only interested in international transport? Take Air Canada for example; they could very well set up a full network within the US. BA, LH etc could all do this. Cabotage would do no good for the US airline industry.

The type of cabotage that the EU is pushing the US for is not for the ability to base aircraft here in the US. What is being asked for by European airlines and a lesser extent Asian carriers is for the ability for flights that originate outside the US to continue on a revenue segment within the US. For instance Japan Air being able to operate NRT-SEA-DEN, or KLM AMS-ATL-MSY as an example and be able to sell between the two domestic cities. Basically being able to fill up seats to allow the service to the secondary point to be economically viable. In many ways this would benefit US cities, and consumers.

On a side note, the US recently has liberalized its cabotage rules, by allowing Korean Air to uplift cargo from Alaska to the lower 48, as part of a test program. Often cargo traffic rights are liberalized prior to passenger services. Baby steps by governments involved.
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6thfreedom
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:44 pm

Another option would be to allow cabotage rights on a reciprical basis, where there is benefit to both sides.

for example, given that QF operates LAX-JFK, and UA operates SYD-MEL, why wouldn't u allow both carriers cabotage between these ports?
Perhaps have a cap of say, 50% of capacity being allowed to be sold on the cabotage rights.
 
Leskova
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:57 pm

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 20):
Is it possible to book a stopover on QFs flight? Say fly QF MEL/SYD-LAX, stop for a couple days, continue QF LAX-JFK, and on the return fly QF JFK-LAX, stop for a couple days, continue LAX-SYD/MEL. ?

The flight can be used for stopovers.

On the QF/BA Round-the-World fares we sell you can fly BA transatlantic, then use QF to fly on to LAX for a stop there after a Stopover in New York... obviously, it works the same way the other way around.

Actually, on the fares that we get from QF, the QF flight is the only JFK-LAX connection that's permitted: the QF/AA codeshare flights are all off-limits.

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 6):
Too bad because that would be exciting to the route, although it would greatly hurt UA's new PS service, aimed at high yield pax

How would a flight that only operates a single frequency on something like three days a week hurt UA's PS service?

Regards,
Frank
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United_fan
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:11 pm

I know you cannot book the JL LAS-LAX flight if you're not continuing on to NRT. Would be great to take a 744 for such a short flight,though  Smile  Smile  Smile
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Sydscott
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:42 am

"Offering cabotage rights to foreign airlines is a joke, it would have nothing but negative effects for Americans."

I would have thought AA would jump at the chance to have a potential daily LAX-JFK-LAX service on a fully equipped QF 747-400 or A380. They would make a fortune out of it and leave the competition for dead. You could man the plane with AA crew and have Qantas pilots fly it. Therefore no loss of jobs at AA and a QF plane gets used instead of sitting at LAX. Win-win. But it wont happen.
 
B742
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:52 am

How are the loads on LAX-JFK-LAX on QF?

Rob!
 
PHX Flyer
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:17 am

[/quote]

Quoting NorthwestEWR (Thread starter):
Can i buy a ticket on Qantas for JFK - LAX and back or do i have to fly to Sydney from LAX ??

Qantas does not have cabotage rights in the United States. Hence, the answer is no, you cannot buy a ticket for the JFK-LAX leg only, and I can tell you from first hand experience that it's not possible - anymore  Wink

Nonetheless I did it once, a couple of years ago, and this was possible because of a mistake in American Airlines' online reservation system, which erroneously allowed one to book the Qantas flight under AA flight number in a domestic itinerary - in my case JFK-PHX via LAX, where the return leg from LAX to JFK was on the QF flight. The anger and frustration at the check-in caused by this flaw in the system is enough to fill an entire trip report, which I am going to spare you. Suffice it to say, since we had luggage checked through from PHX and Qantas would have had to unload it, if they denied us boarding, they eventually let us on. But it was certainly an experience that I could have done without. There was a dozen customer service agents involved trying to fix the situation, while covering their own asses. Every single one of which showed such poor manners and complete lack of professionalism that American lost two frequent flyers that day. On top of that, the QF cabin service was also nothing to write home about. On the whole, it was without doubt the most unpleasant flying experience I have ever had in my life.
After this incident, it still took AA at least six months to correct the error in their res system, but now the loophole appears to be closed.
 
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STT757
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting CXYYZ (Reply 33):
AC have been pushing the Canadian government pretty hard to open up the Free Skies agreement between the US and Canada to include cabotage

I can see a deal with Canada, simply because of geographic conveinence, existing customs pre-screening agreements and existing free trade agreements.

The probablem though is once Canadians are allowed open access what to tell Sir Richard Branson, move to Ontario?..
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
daron4000
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 37):
How would a flight that only operates a single frequency on something like three days a week hurt UA's PS service?


Because high yield pax, who are knowledgeable about different airlines and flying on the days that Qantas flies would look at the two airlines and see that Qantas is easily better than UA.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 43):
Because high yield pax, who are knowledgeable about different airlines

An extremely limited market. Most frequent "high yield pax" in the JFK-LAX market are flying on tickets arranged by corporate travel departments. There's an enormous amount of traffic generated by premium passengers in the financial and entertainment sectors who, for the most part, travel on the carrier where the company has a contract, if the flyer does not qualify for private jet travel. Multiple daily frequencies by UA would not suddenly collapse due to the few open seats 3x per week leftover from connecting international passengers on the route. Let's be serious.
International Homo of Mystery
 
exFATboy
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:59 am

I don't think, given the state of the industry right now, there's any political appetite in the US for cabotage in general. However, I think that the US should consider offering very limited cabotage on a reciprocal basis, with tickets sold by a US partner airline. Especially in a case like this where a 747 is going to make the trip anyway - there's no economic or environmental sense behind making the plane fly half-full.
 
PresRDC
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:59 am

As has been pointed-out one cna fly QF between LAX and JFK (or vice versa) only as part of an international ticket. However, that ticket does not have to be entirely on QF. For example, passengers flying on a Oneworld Explorer RTW ticket can fly QF between JFK and LAX without having to fly on QF to Australia or even, for that matter, without having to make an immediate international connection (stopovers allowed). I know of many of people who have done this. More information can be found at Flyertalk. Interestingly, QF is far more generous offering "A" class availability on this route than AA is (A class is the class used for first class Oneworld Explorers).
 
JAGflyer
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Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:31 am

RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 6):

El Al sells YYZ-LAX and LAX-YYZ as well as codeshares on those flights with DL. I just flew YYZ-LAX-YYZ and they get a lot of pax flying between those two cities. The actual flight is TLV-YYZ-LAX-YYZ-TLV.
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tundra767
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RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:43 am

Actually I was looking up some flight on AA.com and found if I book AA LAX-CDG via JFK I was being booked on the QF flight. So there must be some loop hole if you are traveling international you can in fact fly this.
 
richierich
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Qantas JFK - LAX

Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:59 am

So it is safe to say that the QF 744 flights JFK-LAX are very quiet?
Ditto DL's CDG-DEL flight.
None shall pass!!!!