777ER
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QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:13 pm

The "kangaroo" route between Australia and London is now under even more threat. Malaysia Airlines is refurbishing 17 Boeing 747-400 and 17 Boeing 777-200 aircraft for its long-haul flights in a bid to capture a greater market share of the global high-end traveller market.

http://finance.news.com.au/story/0,10166,12662058-14305,00.html

[Edited 2005-03-28 06:13:56]
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Ruscoe
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:17 pm

Whether they want to or not QF are going to have to purchase some 77LR or 345, to keep the opposition out.

Ruscoe
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:54 pm

Uh-oh,

When I grow up I hope to be a pilot for Qantas. I hope they will still be around. I want to fly the SYD-LAX route.
No Vueling No Party
 
6thfreedom
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:08 pm

Quoting 777ER (Thread starter):
The "kangaroo" route between Australia and London is now under even more threat. Malaysia Airlines is refurbishing 17 Boeing 747-400 and 17 Boeing 777-200 aircraft for its long-haul flights in a bid to capture a greater market share of the global high-end traveller market.

Under more threat??? and since when has the kangaroo route been owned by Qantas.??

New aircraft, improved service, more services and healthy competetion can only be good for the tourism industry.

MH is a quality carrier, and now ranked at no.5 in terms of market share of UK-Australia traffic.

If competition is such an issue for QF, just wait til SQ puts on the A380 LHR-SIN-SYD, when EK operates the A380 Europe-DXB-SYD/MEL, when Qatar Airways commences services!!!
 
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:35 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 3):
and since when has the kangaroo route been owned by Qantas.??

Well thats what the route is knowen by many airlines, australians etc

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 3):
Under more threat???

I didn't write the article in the paper, an Australian paper did.
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777ER
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:38 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 1):
Whether they want to or not QF are going to have to purchase some 77LR or 345, to keep the opposition out.

Fully agree. Once one of the airlines orders either the A345 or B772LR or puts one already in the airlines fleet on the route then the other airlines will place orders or lease soem because the other airlines will have an advantage
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QantasHeavy
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:03 pm

If Malaysian were to join an Alliance, such as Sky Team (which would be a good fit, as ST has a big gap in South Asia, in terms of hubbing, and virtually no service to Australia -- a flight to Cairns via 5 Micronesian islands and a couple flights from SYD and BNE to SEL... hardly a lot) they might get more appeal.

I like MH, but long-haul is a critical way for the business traveller to get miles and status points. While companies such as JAL, Emirates and Malaysian are linked to many FF prgrams, you don't get bonus or tier status with your other FF program.

As a QF paltinum, qualifying three time over each year, I would fly on the new MH configuration if I could get good miles banked. But, even with the QF points inflation, the 225% mileage for a premium ticket is too good to pass up.
 
PerthGloryFan
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:34 pm

Whether they want to or not QF are going to have to purchase some 77LR or 345, to keep the opposition out.

Aircraft types and configuration aren't the biggest threat to Qantas in this or any other market - their biggest problem is lack of route/destination choice.

Want to fly to Europe from Australia with Qantas? London (LHR) and Frankfurt, and that's it!!

C'mon give me a break - from Perth EK, SQ, CX and even Air Mauritius's once a week service, all give me more choice of destinations in Europe.

Instead of bleating about the big bad competition Dixon needs to show some leadership and make some route decisions that will counter this "threat" - and that may in turn mean appropriate fleet choices to make new routes profitable.

PGF
 
karan69
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:39 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 3):
just wait til SQ puts on the A380 LHR-SIN-SYD, when EK operates the A380 Europe-DXB-SYD/MEL, when Qatar Airways commences services!!!

Wont QF put their A380s on simialr routes to LHR via HKG.SIN.BKK
 
antares
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:49 pm

What's the point of suggesting QF go even further into debt to buy A345s or 777-200LRs when neither can do non-stop London from the east coast in either direction with enough passengers to make any money?
 
QANTAS077
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:50 pm

isn't Qantas restricted in the amount of flights ex Singapore to Europe, this is why John Anderson has been in Europe lobbying different countries to get better access for QF to european airports, it pulled out of CDG because it was restricted to 3 flights a week.

thats not really QF's fault, more to do with the EU govts and the restrictions imposed on our airline.
 
bill142
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:12 pm

Under threat? No way. Qantas competes with something like 24 other carriers and this route would have pretty good loads all year round.

Quoting PerthGloryFan (Reply 7):

Aircraft types and configuration aren't the biggest threat to Qantas in this or any other market - their biggest problem is lack of route/destination choice.

Agreed. LHR or FRA isn't a big choice unless you want to fly to LHR and the back track on a BA flight. You've got more options with CX, SQ and EK all with compareable prices and flight times. Qantas is shooting it self in the foot by not offering enough destinations. Perhaps they could expand the SIN hub and base a fleet of A330's or put the much rumored 777's there to serve other european destinations.
Going non-stop isn't going to change much either.
 
zvezda
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:19 pm

If I were running Qantas, I would buy 5 B777-200LR and operate LHR-SYD and LHR-MEL nonstop with a scheduled technical stop in Europe on the westbounds, which could be skipped when wind conditions are favorable or loads are light. I would configure about 100 C sleeper seats in 2-2-2 and about 100 Y seats in 2-2/2-2. I would sell only full C and full Y fares. No way for EK or SQ to compete directly with that.
 
antares
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:26 pm

Zvezda,

You'd also send them broke. Qantas has said neither jet can make money for it either way non stop.

A tech stop on the westbound trip would totally destroy the premium selling point of non-stop service since the trip time would be same as today's one-stops give or take a few minutes.

Incidentally if you've flown EK or SQ in First the last year as well as QF, and I have, they can stop twice as much as Qantas and I'd still give them my money.

Antares
 
6thfreedom
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:42 pm

Quoting Qantas077 (Reply 10):
isn't Qantas restricted in the amount of flights ex Singapore to Europe, this is why John Anderson has been in Europe lobbying different countries to get better access for QF to european airports, it pulled out of CDG because it was restricted to 3 flights a week.

thats not really QF's fault, more to do with the EU govts and the restrictions imposed on our airline.

Australia is holding talks with the EU next month, in the hope of getting increased rights to places like France.

I think the lack of capacity is also being played up by QF.. an excuse for pulling services. Realistically, I cant see QF resuming Rome, and Paris is marginal at best, especially given the new and extensive codeshare with AF over SIN.
 
B742
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:56 pm

Also TG are refurbishing their 744's with new cabins!

Rob!
 
danialanwar
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:19 pm

Quoting Qantas077 (Reply 10):
isn't Qantas restricted in the amount of flights ex Singapore to Europe

The problem here is not Singapore - they can fly as much out of Singapore as they like, but some European countries dont want to give QF more traffic rights (hence no reason to ban SQ from SYD to LAX for this reason). Even IF Singapore would restrict flights, SQ would surely have traffic rights to route more flights through Malaysia, Thailand, Dubai (or other gulf airports) even Hong Kong and India. So that cant be the excuse.

The problem now-a-days is that if you want to fly from any big city in Europe (excl. LHR, FRA) to - say - Sydney, it's one-stop same airline if you choose CX, TG, MH, SQ, EK, OS, UA compared to at least two stops and changing airline at FRA/LHR if you want to use QF.

Sadly, the A345 / B772LR cant make Europe to Sydney if any mentionable load. They could make LHR-PER, but the money is on the routes to SYD and MEL
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QANTAS077
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:39 pm

Quoting Danialanwar (Reply 16):
The problem here is not Singapore - they can fly as much out of Singapore as they like, but some European countries dont want to give QF more traffic rights (hence no reason to ban SQ from SYD to LAX for this reason). Even IF Singapore would restrict flights, SQ would surely have traffic rights to route more flights through Malaysia, Thailand, Dubai (or other gulf airports) even Hong Kong and India. So that cant be the excuse.

thats what i meant, QF is restricted in europe so no matter where they fly from in Asia they still face restrictions at european destinations.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:40 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 9):
What's the point of suggesting QF go even further into debt to buy A345s or 777-200LRs when neither can do non-stop London from the east coast in either direction with enough passengers to make any money?

Qantas' debt is quite managable - they have been making healthy profits.


As for the thread:

Qantas has almost ALWAYS had to compete for the Kangaroo route - it's a tough market out there. There are many many many airlines currently on the route or similar routes and Qantas seems to be operating it well, with good capacity and profitability. When SQ, EK, Qatar and possibly MK start to use the A380 on the route - ..... so will Qantas. The playing field may be elevated in terms of capacity, but I don't believe the playing field will be altered all together.

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 2):
Uh-oh,

When I grow up I hope to be a pilot for Qantas. I hope they will still be around. I want to fly the SYD-LAX route.

I think I can safely say that of all the international routes Qantas currently flies, SYD-LAX is one of the safest in terms of future availability.

Remember - Qantas has an extensive Domestic network to fall back on - something that many competing airlines simply do not have.


QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
WunalaYann
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:55 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
I were running Qantas, I would buy 5 B777-200LR and operate LHR-SYD and LHR-MEL nonstop with a scheduled technical stop in Europe on the westbounds, which could be skipped when wind conditions are favorable or loads are light.

I see your point, but it's risky. I don't think passengers would relish the idea of a maybe/maybe-not stop on the return leg of a Europe-Oz-Europe trip. Tourists may not like the idea of "maybe" losing a precious day of holidays for a night in Singapore. Needless to say that business people would not even consider flying with that kind of schedule uncertainty...

Plus, having done the trip a few times, and knowing how physically draining it can be with just one stop-over, I cannot imagine sitting in a tube for 18 straight hours... Just a very personal opinion, sure, but most people I talk to feel the same.

Cheers,

Y.
 
dutchjet
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:20 pm

QF has always had a huge amount of competiton on the Kanagroo route....for years, it has always been possible to connect on airlines like SQ, MH, CX, TG and the others on a trip from Europe to Australia. This is nothing new - when BA and QF combined their London-Australia schedules back in the early 1990s when BA invested in QF, this was their prime arguement to the governmental authorites regulating competition. The two serious new players in the market are Virgin, with its direct LHR-HKG-SYD service and Emirates, with its ever growing network via Dubai. Luckily, the demand for flights between London and Australia seems to be growing.

QF has seriously cut back its European network which, over-time, could be a problem. That being said, per QF, the only real money to be made on the Kangaroo route is out of LHR and FRA due to the high demand for premium class seats. Cities like Paris and Rome were dropped from the QF network since most pax were lesiure travellers looking for inexpensive fares and the yeild were poor, also, I think QF could only fly 3 times per week out of Paris, and limited schedules such as these are not at all popular with premium fare pax who, more or less, require daily services. For the time being, it seems that QF is most focused on its London services.

If and when Boeing or Airbus develop advanced versions of the A345 or 777LR that can do LHR-SYD nonstop in each direction on a year round basis with full passenger loads, QF will be among the first purchasers of the new type, until then the situation will remain much as it is today. LHR-SIN-SYD is sure to be one of QF's first A380 routes.
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:04 am

I still think they can use the 777LR for some routes to compete better. For example, even though the money is in SYd/MEL, they still have traffic going from PER, so why not offered nonstops fom there: SYD-PER-LHR or MEL-PER-LHR. It seems to me that they could do SYD-ROME-LONDON or SYD-ATHENS-PARIS, for example, or any other combination of destinations in Europe. It they could at least do a LHR nonstop in either direction, i still think that is attractive to travelers and put thems ahead of the competition. They will still have the 1-stop a380, which is suppose to also attract traffic with the new aircraft. But if by offering a SYD-LHR and then, lets say, LHR-ROM-SYD, it is still Europe to SYD/MEL nonstop.
 
zvezda
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:35 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 20):
If and when Boeing or Airbus develop advanced versions of the A345 or 777LR that can do LHR-SYD nonstop in each direction on a year round basis with full passenger loads

I don't think it's practicable to add fuel capacity to either the A340-500 or the B777-200LR. That leaves weight reduction, drag reduction, and engine efficiency as ways to increase the range. I can imagine a combination of such improvments might increase the range of the B777-200LR to serve SYD-LHR nonstop year-round, but I can't imagine any combination of those sufficient in the A340-500 case.

I think Airbus would have a better chance developing a long-range version of the A350 than trying to further extend the range of the A340-500.
 
WunalaYann
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:45 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 20):
If and when Boeing or Airbus develop advanced versions of the A345 or 777LR that can do LHR-SYD nonstop in each direction on a year round basis with full passenger loads, QF will be among the first purchasers of the new type, until then the situation will remain much as it is today.



Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 21):
it is still Europe to SYD/MEL nonstop

Assuming that there IS interest for such a long flight. Again, outside of first class, and perhaps Business, 18 hours are a WHOLE lot to spend sitting on a plane.

And Boeing or Airbus have yet to build an aircraft able fly Europe/Oz non-stop, and both legs without strong-head-winds stops. That's the first hurdle to overcome.

Cheers,

Y.
 
scotron11
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 23):

Assuming that there IS interest for such a long flight

Well, if you consider SQ EWR-SIN & LAX-SIN a long flight, I would "assume" there is interest in such a long flight. And being the configuration that SQ operate these flights with, Raffles and Premium Economy, there is certainly a market for it.

Personally, I say "bunkum" to MH and all the other "fringe" carriers trying to muscle in on the so called "kangaroo" route; it's not as if they are new or haven't been around for a few years. Notwithstanding that this market is very large and caters to all segments of the flying public.

QF, like BA, is a premium carrier and premium carriers will always attract premium customers, no matter what the competition or equipment they offer.
 
nycflyer
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting Qantas077 (Reply 17):
thats what i meant, QF is restricted in europe so no matter where they fly from in Asia they still face restrictions at european destinations.

why is QF limited in Europe? someone please explain this. thank you.
 
antares
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:24 am

Dear QANTASforever,

According to your leader Qantas is making half as much money as it needs to if it is to generate the profits to pay for the future investment schedule.

Back to work NOW

Antares
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 21):
For example, even though the money is in SYd/MEL, they still have traffic going from PER, so why not offered nonstops fom there:

You've already answered the latter part of this question with the former  Silly

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
leaves weight reduction, drag reduction, and engine efficiency as ways to increase the range.

Well, Boeing is studing a radical weight reduction of the 777 family, something akin to a true 777NG. Whether that would boost performance enough for a roundtrip nonstop Kangarro route is however, beyond my knowledge.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Ruscoe
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:52 am

Antares,
Does Qantas have a choice in Europe considering their fleet?

What aircraft are they going to use to open thinner routes in Europe?

IMO Qantas made a poor fleet decision a few years back when they did not go with the 777. Could now have a family of like airliners in service or ordered, to cover most possibilities.

Also an ULR aircraft can have range sacrificed for more cargo payload. Ever noticed how airlines gravitate to the derivative with the most payload/range.

330's are fine for Asia, but I would think not for Europe distances.

Ruscoe
 
antares
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:51 am

Ruscoe,

It seems that Qantas never took into real account the desire of people to avoid connecting backwards over heathrow to go somewhere else in Europe. Their major competitors on the route do it very effectively over Bangkok, Singapore and now Hong Kong, with even CX gladly taking Rome off their hands, and apparently making a return that Qantas never had the ability to make, no doubt aided by HK originating traffic.

I doubt that Qantas will address the 'thinner' routes with new aircraft but MAY get Australian to fly to say Athens or Rome over Bangkok with an A332 or maybe just (I'm not sure if this is possible) some 763s.

The carrier is in no position despite the progress it has made to order yet another type of jet. The stable door has been open for too long.

Not only that it will be some years before a jet able to make money non-stop to Europe becomes possible, the likely candidates being a cut-down A380, a four engined version of the A350, or a reworked 777 or extra range version of the 787.

However the total market for such a jet may be too small to entice either manufacturer, especially if the market outlook goes through one of its periodic setbacks.

Personally I think the A380 will suck an awful lot of activity into mega-hub to mega-hub flights, even though I don't personally like the idea. That is because the operating costs that come with larger scale can be a very potent weapon in attacking carriers using more expensive to operate medium capacity jets.

The Emirates strategy is to secure significant offshore investments. Some of its 80 (as rumoured) A380s may end up in an Emirates supported Garuda, or even Air New Zealand, or another Australian long carrier. No I'm not hallucinating. The future is always more surprising than we can ever imagine.

Antares
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:56 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 29):
a four engined version of the A350

...why would (the hindrance of) 4 engines be needed?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
monteycarlos
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:32 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 9):
What's the point of suggesting QF go even further into debt to buy A345s or 777-200LRs when neither can do non-stop London from the east coast in either direction with enough passengers to make any money?

Fair point.... I think the major protection for QF on this route is their continued alliance with BA. How the semi-recent stock sale buy BA will affect this remains to be seen but IMO as long as QF and BA maintain a strategic alliance the route will continue to remain profitable and more than likely the majority of the market share will remain with the two carriers.

Quoting B742 (Reply 15):
Also TG are refurbishing their 744's with new cabins!

Finally.  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 28):
IMO Qantas made a poor fleet decision a few years back when they did not go with the 777. Could now have a family of like airliners in service or ordered, to cover most possibilities.

I think they didn't stand as much to benefit a few years ago. The current variants of the aircraft really provide nothing that the QF 744's and ER's alike can't, and not to mind the extra capacity they provide on the route. Range is a non-issue and its only now a consideration because the 772LR and the A345 can make the distances (albeit one way). IMO what you're saying is true, but the vital decision period is now, but then there is the other issue of actually having the aircraft delivered in time to meet the threats to this route head on.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
antares
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:34 am

Concordeboy,

Qantas needs to retain capability to do two unusual things with a medium sized jet. 1. Fly non-stop from Australia to Buenos Aires or Santiago, and similarly to South Africa. There is no prospect of a network of emergency 24 hour alternative airports being created in Antarctica and as long as the current crop of engineers and flight standards people draw breath at Qantas they will never put passengers up to 8 hours from anywhere over the polar wastes.

2. Qantas pioneered the trans Tibetan corridor. It will not fly big twins along it, because even though alternates exist the safe minimum is apparently higher than the Afghan corridors and lower than a fully laden twin flying on one engine in heavy icing conditions. And that is even before you come to the issue of maintaining oxygen supply in a cabin decmpression, something they deal with on their 744s with supplementary packs.

Although I haven't heard anyone from Qantas address the 4 versus 2 issue as to range for some years, Qantas was also of the view in the past that a 4 would in theory always have longer range than a 2, and that the big issue for a very heavy 2 was what happened if on a hot day with a 49 second takeoff roll you blew one of them.

They may of course be weak kneed lemonade drinking sissy pants for all some of us might think, but whatever my personal criticisms of their attitude to customers, they set very brutal tests when it comes to where they will put their jets, how they will be flown, and what sort of one in a million contingencies they plan for.
 
chrisrad
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:58 am

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 24):
Personally, I say "bunkum" to MH and all the other "fringe" carriers trying to muscle in on the so called "kangaroo" route; it's not as if they are new or haven't been around for a few years. Notwithstanding that this market is very large and caters to all segments of the flying public.

QF, like BA, is a premium carrier and premium carriers will always attract premium customers, no matter what the competition or equipment they offer.

So you are saying MH,SQ,CX.TG,EK are not premium carriers, they are infact much higher rated in customer surveys than QF/BA?
Define "fringe" because MH,SQ have more flights to Europe from Australia than QF/BA???
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
gigneil
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 30):
...why would (the hindrance of) 4 engines be needed?

You couldn't possibly quote a single reason why 4 engines is a hinderance.

Having a love for something is one thing, childish rhetoric is something else.

N
 
scotron11
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting Chrisrad (Reply 33):

Define "fringe" because MH,SQ have more flights to Europe from Australia than QF/BA???

Maybe so. But I don't see QF or BA crying, do you? And my mention of the word "fringe", is in context that MH and SQ have been around for quite a while and I do not feel they pose any significant "threat" to BA/QF on the "kangaroo" route. And quite frankly, they never will. Nor will EK for that matter. Leisure travelers maybe, but not the F and J cabins.
 
antares
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RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:45 pm

Scotron11,

I beg to differ on the P cabin on EK which I flew to Europe several months ago. It made everything else I ever flown in first class look inferior, in the A345, not the connecting 777-300 which was an old fashioned type of seat which cannot fully recline.

The IFE, sleeping and working space, private coat locker, demi-suite storage space, and catering and service standards in the A345 were outstanding. The flight onwards to London in the Boeing was good but not sensationally good. Assuming EK upgrade their Boeings to a similar standard to the A345s and that the format is carried forward into the A380 I think EK will have a formidable offering in first.

EK's business class IS awful. It was before the A345 upgrade when it was a super economy, and it is not much better in the 345 now, although the service standards and IFE are no doubt very good.

For what it is worth, until I flew the EK 345 the best service standards I had seen in long haul first class were those of Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines. My colleagues insist that All Nippon is also in that same company while they claim JL has declined in quality.
 
scotron11
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:12 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 36):

It made everything else I ever flown in first class look inferior

There is a trip report by SQ722 on EK SYD-AKL. It makes interesting reading.

All experiences are subjective. I am not disparaging SQ or MH in any form. Or EK for that matter. I have experienced SQ and CX in the First cabin and they were both very nice. QF/BA are not the "flashiest" of airlines, but airlines that offer solid, good, consistent service. Sure, everyone has their "off" days, but by and large, they are quite good.

Not only that, BA/QF have a respect aspect which, I think, gives them an "edge" on their long-haul, which few airlines can match.

QF is itself in the midst of upgrading their premium cabins and BA will shortly start. After that, I guess the proof will be in the pudding!

Cheers!
 
chrisrad
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2000 7:26 pm

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:13 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 37):
All experiences are subjective. I am not disparaging SQ or MH in any form. Or EK for that matter. I have experienced SQ and CX in the First cabin and they were both very nice. QF/BA are not the "flashiest" of airlines, but airlines that offer solid, good, consistent service. Sure, everyone has their "off" days, but by and large, they are quite good.

Not only that, BA/QF have a respect aspect which, I think, gives them an "edge" on their long-haul, which few airlines can match.

I beg to differ, QF/BA are the epitome of inconsistent service. Hence why they consistenty don't even get mentioned in Service awards, the view of 2million+ travellers surely must mean something?
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2628
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:16 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 35):
Maybe so. But I don't see QF or BA crying, do you? And my mention of the word "fringe", is in context that MH and SQ have been around for quite a while and I do not feel they pose any significant "threat" to BA/QF on the "kangaroo" route.

Are you kidding? QF whinges and cries all the time.
Have you ever read any of their media releases when they discuss EK or the like?? Geez!

Ask the QF and BA lads where they think there is a 'threat' on the Kangaroo route! within the next 12-18 months EK will be serving BNE, PER, SYD and MEL double daily, possibly with the A380.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:12 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 27):
Boeing is studing a radical weight reduction of the 777 family, something akin to a true 777NG. Whether that would boost performance enough for a roundtrip nonstop Kangarro route is however, beyond my knowledge.

Perhaps some educated guessing is in order here. Airbus are engaged in a major weight cutting of the A330 to produce the A350. I seem to recall they are saving 17tonnes by switching from aluminium to GLARE. Is that right? The B777-200LR is larger than the A330-300. Would it be fair to guess than a B777-200LR with a GLARE fuselage would be at least about 20 tonnes lighter?

How much would a 20 tonne reduction in EOW without an increase in fuel capacity increase the range of the B777-200LR? Less fuel would be burned on take-off and during climb. How much less?

Put another way, I think we all agree that a B777-200LR with full fuel and no payload could fly SYD-LHR nonstop any day of the year. Right? If so, then a 20 tonne lightening would allow for 20 tonnes of payload. If I'm not mistaken, 20 tonnes is nearly 200 pax with bags.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:19 pm

Quoting QantasHeavy (Reply 6):
a flight to Cairns via 5 Micronesian islands

skyTeam passengers can easily get to Cairns in two stops, such as AMS-NRT-GUM-CNS or EWR-HNL-GUM-CNS.
a.
 
scotron11
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:42 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 39):

Ask the QF and BA lads where they think there is a 'threat' on the Kangaroo route! within the next 12-18 months EK will be serving BNE, PER, SYD and MEL double daily, possibly with the A380.

So? Are you trying to say that all of a sudden, in 12-18 months, QF/BA are going to go from 60% of the market to less than 50% or lower? Do not forget, QF will be operating the A380 as well. As to BA, we don't know what they will go for, yet. But one thing is for sure, they won't give an inch without a fight!
 
antares
Posts: 1367
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:55 pm

Scotron11,

If you go to the DOTARS site and download the traffic stats you will find that Qantas struggles to get more than 40 % of the international market in the most recent reporting period on a year to date basis, but historically it was as low as around 31 % on key routes and was one of the reasons given for the establishment of Australian, ie, to lift the total share of the international market flying on Qantas or a Qantas owned carrer. The BA contribution to the inventory available on QF/BA code shares is much less than half.

Antares
 
ACB777
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:16 am

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:19 pm

I don't really think QF's Kangroo Route will be threatened. With the exception of Austrian Airlines, their fares are usually lower than every other airline offering connecting service from LHR-SYD.
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2628
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:46 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 43):
Scotron11,

If you go to the DOTARS site and download the traffic stats you will find that Qantas struggles to get more than 40 % of the international market in the most recent reporting period on a year to date basis, but historically it was as low as around 31 % on key routes and was one of the reasons given for the establishment of Australian, ie, to lift the total share of the international market flying on Qantas or a Qantas owned carrer. The BA contribution to the inventory available on QF/BA code shares is much less than half.

spot on! anyone that thinks that QF/BA are holding their ground needs to look at the stats. In some markets, such as MEL and BNE, QF now accounts for less than 30% of operating capacity and market share.
 
monkeyboi
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:12 am

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:46 pm

I cannot speak for the other european countries but I know that the frequencies the Italian and French governments granted to QF for flights were equivelant to the frequencies that the Australian government were prepared to give AZ and AF (hence the reason that AF/AZ do not serve OZ).

Its great reading all these posts by 'armchair CEOs'. At the end of the day QF seems to be doing just fine as it is. I'm sure that if they decide not to fly to certain destinations it is for a reason. Now if I put my armchair CEO hat on for a minute i'd say it probably relates to transit traffic and the ONEWORLD alliance.

Can QF really expect to fill it's premium cabins on a B747 from Australia to Roma or Paris with simple originating and destination traffic? I doubt it very much. In the case of Roma apparently the route was stopped as premium loads were low and the majority of the passengers were VFOR (visiting friends or relatives) hence fairly low yields. Paris i'm not sure, but considering it is only slightly further away from LHR than MAN is, it isn't much of a back track. BA has 12 x daily flights LHR/CDG each direction (with a flight time of around 45min) so able to offer good connections to all QF inbound/outbound flights. FRA is probably the biggest financial capital in europe (HQ of european bank etc) so is probably able to be profitable in it's own right with premium passengers.

Where can QF feed pax from/to elsewhere in europe (within the ONEWORLD alliance) other than LHR? If they fly to FCO or CDG the only oneworld partner with european connections is BA.....to LHR/LGW!

By concentrating its european flying from OZ to LHR it offers connections to over 50 european destinations, most more than daily, with BA (many of the most popular connections do not require a terminal change). It also enables QF to offer the best schedule of any airline with the most frequencies between OZ and LHR. And finally, it would allow QF to invest more heavily in its products at LHR (such as lounges etc) than if it had also to invest in products on the ground in CDG/FRA/ATH etc etc. When T5 opens at LHR QF will be able to offer even more seamless connections as all BA/QF flights will arrive and depart from the same terminal.

Some european destinations do require quite a bit of 'back tracking'. An example would be ATH and Australia has quite a sizeable greek community. But again that route, if served direct from OZ, would lack the much needed premium traffic. I did read a while back though that Australian Airlines were looking to serve the route with a B767.

I think the point that has been made on numerous threads on here regarding numerous airlines that success can no longer be measured on 'how many destinations are served' but more on 'how much money can be made'. While i'm sure it is a pain in the a*se for the 40 passengers on the LHR QF flight that have to get to LHR then back-track to, say rome, but would those 40 passengers warrant a 3 x weekly B747 to fly them direct?
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2263
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:48 pm

Antares: I found EK's business class on the A345 exquisitely superb!! I don't have a huge amount of j-class experience (only SQ and NZ), but it was fantastic i thought. Loved the egg seats and all their bits, and the service was amazing.
 
LXsaab2000
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:00 pm

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:21 pm

QF usually flew 4 times/week to Rome with 743/744.
They 've reported on these flights a medium LF of 88% (70% originated from Australia and 30% from Italy) all the year round.
They closed this route on October 2003 after 55 years of service probably for not excellent loads on premium classes.

Davide
Bye

[Edited 2005-03-29 12:23:06]
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat

Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:35 pm

Monkeyboi is pretty much spot on with his comments. VFOR traffic can work in some cases, but a flight from Australia and Europe containing low yield traffic is not the best use of a 747 when there are better opportunities on offer.

For decent yields, LHR and FRA are probably the only truly realistic routes that QF could serve in Europe. AMS and CDG would again be more leisure traffic - if there were the demand there then AF and KL would be flying for sure, even if it was less frequencies than they'd ideally want. Additionally as mentioned, it is such a short flight from LHR to CDG or AMS that BA could easily serve this leg of the journey if QF feeds its passengers through LHR.

Quoting Monkeyboi (Reply 46):
An example would be ATH and Australia has quite a sizeable greek community. But again that route, if served direct from OZ, would lack the much needed premium traffic. I did read a while back though that Australian Airlines were looking to serve the route with a B767.

I'd also heard this with regard to Rome services too. Would make much more sense to use the lower cost base to serve these destinations. However, again there is enough growth in Asia at present for these markets to be left aside for now.

But again - if there was serious money to be made then OA wouldn't have stopped their flights to Australia.

As has been said above - its not just about filling a plane with passengers, its about profitably filling a plane with passengers.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work

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