boeingforever
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:05 pm

How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:24 am

Look at this picture and description of an iberia flight, being pilotted by a friend of the pilot. This is a commercial airline, on a commercial flight, and thres a civilian flying it!!



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Photo © Ismael Jorda




Description:EC-FGV (cn 207) Pilot flying is my friend Rub�n Beter� turning on right base with a sharp turn of 30 degrees bank. Landing gear is in transit and flaps two are set. With landing gear down he will ask for flaps 3 and turning on final Rub�n will demand flaps full for a perfect visual approach and landing on runway 27. Congratulations Rub�n.
 
zonky
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:31 pm

RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:30 am

If we assume that the photographer is a iberian pilot;

why do assume that the person in the right seat is not?

Are you not 'friends' with some of your fellow workers

Why are you assuming he is a civillian?

[Edited 2005-03-29 17:32:25]
 
boeingforever
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:33 am

if thats the case, then its very unprofessional that he is in civilian clothes
 
A319114
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:35 am

It's probably a training flight, too. Secondly, mr Beteré (the 'civilian' flying) is probably a pilot (in training maybe)

And of course, there's still someone on the left seat.
Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation
 
zonky
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:40 am

No it's not.

Try this pic.


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Photo © Ismael Jorda



Look at the description.

Eat humble pie.

Relax.
 
boeingforever
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:50 am

so why is he wearing civilian clothes
 
TACAA320
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:05 am

Quoting BoeingForEver (Thread starter):
Look at this picture and description of an iberia flight, being pilotted by a friend of the pilot. This is a commercial airline, on a commercial flight, and thres a civilian flying it!!

Why are you making conclusions based only in the clothes he was wearing?

IB is a very serious airline, and will not put in risk passengers life?
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
AirNZ
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:16 am

Boeing ForEver

What exactly are you getting so het up about, and what exactly do you mean by a 'civilian'?
Irrespective of whether a pilot is wearing his airline's uniform at any particular time he, or she, is still a commercial pilot.....and thus a civilian!
Furthermore, I see no description in any photo which indicates to me it is a 'scheduled' flight, so why are you assuming that something (in your opinion) is so-called badly wrong here? Personally speaking, as long as the guy is qualified to fly the plane, what difference does it actually make how he's dressed, remembering that 'professional' is an arbitary opinion.
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sabenapilot
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:16 am

Base training is the final stage of the type rating training and comprises some touch and go maneuvers... Just like all training, it is done in casual clothing at most airlines.... Although you always will have the odd company where pilots always have to show up in uniform, even for their simcheck!
 
boeingforever
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:19 am

very unprofessional..he shouldnt publish those pictures without a complete description..very misleading
 
petertenthije
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:34 am

Where does it say that the person in control is NOT a pilot? He says that the pilot that is flying is his friend... that's all!
Attamottamotta!
 
TedTAce
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 8):

Good Analysis Sabenapilot

The Picture says "for a base training session". I'm sorry, but if there are no Pax involved you can wear whatever you want as far as I'm concerned.
This space intentionally left blank
 
Shamrock_747
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:50 am

I think by reading the description it is quite obvious what the situation is.
 
mandala499
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:51 am

Civilian = Non Diplomatic and non Military and in some countries non-law enforcement personnell... So, airline pilots "are" civilian...  Smile

"so why is he wearing civilian clothes"

Some (if not most) allow training flights to be conducted out of uniform though restrictions on what type of clothing apply.

So what's so unprofessional about it?
I don't see why this picture is misleading... afterall, the photographer is not obliged to put information in the description box. And he didn't lie either...

mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
HR001
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:51 am

Does the uniform makes the pilot or the licence on his wallet?
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:55 am

I thought I read somewhere that pilots can wear street clothes if they're assigned to a cargo flight.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
sabenapilot
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting BoeingForEver (Reply 9):
very unprofessional..he shouldn't publish those pictures without a complete description

There is a complete description actually, maybe not on EACH picture as such, but the full series was well commented... besides, even without a description it is perfectly simple to understand what is going on there, it's just that you didn't think of it. You just thought the pilots invited some guy up in front to actually fly a plane! very plausible indeed, certainly at a world class airline like Iberia!

Anyway, being a professional pilot is something different then walking around whole day long in a uniform.
 
boeingforever
Posts: 200
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 11):
The Picture says "for a base training session". I'm sorry, but if there are no Pax involved you can wear whatever you want as far as I'm concerned.

where does it say that?? picture implies some guy just came up to fly the plane
 
Leskova
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:30 am

Quoting BoeingForEver (Reply 18):
where does it say that?? picture implies some guy just came up to fly the plane

No, it doesn't.

It just implies, and rightly so, that Rubén Beteré is a friend of Ismael Jorda - everything else is what you're reading into the description...

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
citationjet
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting BoeingForEver (Reply 5):
so why is he wearing civilian clothes

What's wrong with wearing civilian clothes on a training flight?
I have been on a 747 non-revenue ferry flight where the pilots wore civilian clothes in the cockpit. There were no flight attendants on board, and no one was in uniform. It was no big deal.
Are you OK with pilots not wearing their uniforms in the flight simulators?
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
ozglobal
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting BoeingForEver (Reply 9):
very unprofessional..he shouldnt publish those pictures without a complete description..very misleading

If you haven't worked it out, here's what happened:

i) You saw a photo, read the discription and jumped to conclusions
ii) Your conclusions made you indignant
iii) They were demostrated to be mistaken and even ill-judged
iv) Now you're mad at the photographer because you jumped to conclusions

Let it go.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
jtamu97
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:06 am

We are all missing the point..At Least he has CLOTHES on!!

[Edited 2005-03-29 21:08:31]
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
AT502B
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:13 am

My father who is a Flight Standards Captain/Check Airman for UA 767/757 fleet, has flown revenue trips out of uniform, it's not uncommon.
I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning.
 
LimaFoxTango
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:24 am

BoeingForEver, I guess you really didn't read what the Photographer said in the description. It said, and I quote "Pilot flying is my friend Rubén Beteré turning on right base with a sharp turn of 30 degrees bank....". It does not say "Person flying is.....". So thence forth, it is clear to see the individual flying is NOT a "civilian". Whether or not it is a training flight is another story and I shall not get into that.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
beeweel15
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:09 am

Wait a minute was it not here in the US, a few years ago, that two pilots flew a regualar schdueled flight naked. I cant remeber the airline but I do remember they got fired for doing it.

For many years I have seen many Pilots fly ferry and training flights in civilian clothing. I see no problem with it so why do you.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 26):
Wait a minute was it not here in the US, a few years ago, that two pilots flew a regualar schdueled flight naked. I cant remeber the airline but I do remember they got fired for doing it.

Southwest IIRC.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
zotan
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:20 am

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 26):
Wait a minute was it not here in the US, a few years ago, that two pilots flew a regualar schdueled flight naked

It was two WN pilots. Im not sure of the specifics, all I know is that it was two WN pilots naked in the cockpit.
 
QuestAir
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:39 am

I friend of mine went into the cockpit (invited, of course) of a Tristar a couple years ago inflight. The captain let him move the thrust handles forward and back a bit. Is that legal?
'Do we carry rich people on our flights? Yes, I flew on one this morning and I�m very rich.' - Michael O'Leary
 
jtamu97
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:41 am

Here is a link that kind of talks about the Southwest Incident:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/...003/2003-04-25-sw-naked-pilots.htm
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
FlyMeToTheMoon
Posts: 189
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:40 am

BoeingForEver...

it is not legal! Let's call the lawyers, sue them, transfer some wealth!

Why in the world do we have to start by assuming the worst? This is one of the reasons we end up with lawsuits over hot spilled coffee and such!

And besides, if it were not legal do you think the photographer is such a HUGE imbecil to make this public?
Fly me to the moon... but not through LHR!
 
Iberia340600
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:43 am

BoeingForEver:

Have you ever heard the saying..."when you assume..."

Geez....are you kidding me? You really think some guy just came up to the cockpit and started flying the plane?
Visca Barça!!
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting FlyMeToTheMoon (Reply 31):
This is one of the reasons we end up with lawsuits over hot spilled coffee and such!

FlyMe...the McDonald's hot coffee case isn't the best example of a frivolous lawsuit. Trust me, you don't want to go there - it's more legit than you realize.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
fspilot747
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:38 am

Quoting Iberia340600 (Reply 32):
You really think some guy just came up to the cockpit and started flying the plane?

And land it, too, smoothly.....
 
jafa39
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:41 am

"With landing gear down he will ask for flaps 3 and turning on final Rub�n will demand flaps full for a perfect visual approach and landing on runway 27. Congratulations Rub�n."

Whoever he is, by the description with the pic he knows what he is doing as he will be the one asking for flaps etc.

Lotta stressed people on a.net these days, must be the full moon!!!
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
CcrlR
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:09 am

There are a lot of reasons why they are dressed like that but the reasons from me are they are testing the aircraft out, learning to fly the aircraft, or reposessing the plane. Since the other two make sense I will go with either one. Sometimes they may do a casual friday type of dress code. Since this was taken on a saturday, it might have been a casual dress with some sort of flight they are doing. Just ask the photographer about the pilot dressed up like that.
"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
 
65captin
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:44 am

The point is... someone new to an aircraft, or in training will not have to wear their uniform. If they are in "Civilian" clothes then I can assure you that there are no pax on the plane, if its an airline. Whos going to pay for a seat when the plane is doing touch and go's? Plus that company might not have access to simulators, so their pilots will have to demonstrate their skills in a physical plane.


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AirRuss
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:18 am

It's obvious from a minimal amount of investigatory work that the photographer is an IB A320 First Officer. He is a frequent poster (669 photos) and has many many shots taken from the right seat of IB A320s. Additionally, over a two day period May 1, 2004 - May 2, 2004 he has many similar shots with First Officer 'friends' at the controls in the right seat of the same airplane (all in "civilian" clothes), which tells me that this was most likely a new-hire class of First Officers, plus I can't (upon a quick check) find any photos he took from the cockpit prior to May 1, 2004.
 
Iberia340600
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:24 am

Quoting CcrlR (Reply 36):
There are a lot of reasons why they are dressed like that but the reasons from me are they are testing the aircraft out, learning to fly the aircraft, or reposessing the plane. Since the other two make sense I will go with either one. Sometimes they may do a casual friday type of dress code. Since this was taken on a saturday, it might have been a casual dress with some sort of flight they are doing. Just ask the photographer about the pilot dressed up like that.

CCrl:
The answer is quite simple. They were doing a training/rating flight. There are no passengers on that plane and they are allowed to wear causal clothing during these training flights. Its as simple as that.
Visca Barça!!
 
milan320
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:05 am

Someone is really uptight here. It happens once in a while that pilots wear casual clothes. I think it's cool.
I was on an AC flight, and the pilot wore a baseball cap. He told me it was his lucky cap.

Check these out. The first one is of Niki Lauda, and he's the president of the airline so I suppose he can do whatever he wants,but he's still the captain of this flight.
And the second one is of an F/O on British Midland I believe.

Perhaps Europeans are a little bit less stuffy????


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Photo © EDDL Photography
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Photo © Daniel Nicholson



I like the casual look, and I don't think it's disrespectful or unprofessional. Maybe it was a friday too?  

Cheers!
/Milan320

[Edited 2005-03-30 03:15:42]
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
Boeing727flyer
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:14 am

I would say that they are training flights.
Hail the mighty Boeing 727
 
flymia
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:13 pm

BoeingForEver: All it says is his friend is flying the plane. A friend can be a pilot too. Pilots have friends too.

[Edited 2005-03-30 05:13:43]
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
baylorairbear
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:21 pm

Quoting 65captin (Reply 37):
Whos going to pay for a seat when the plane is doing touch and go's?

You had the nerve to ask that around here?  biggrin 

BaylorAirBear
I'm just skipping stones...
 
David T
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:04 pm

Do you want to be Ruben's friend? I want to be Rubens friend! Looks like a sharp dressed man as well! (Now if there was a fuzzy guitar in the cockpit? Well....!)
 
Newark777
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:06 pm

Quoting 65captin (Reply 37):
Whos going to pay for a seat when the plane is doing touch and go's?

I would!  hyper 

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
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zippyjet
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:21 pm

Imitation is the best form of flattery! That feisty white palimono did it first and in his skivies!

Back in the early 60's, that talking horse, the famous Mr. Ed took control of the cockpit. Don't be suprised if his great grandson gallops his way to Iberia for a job as a First Officer at least. Ever heard of a talking horse? I am Mr. Ed!

¡Un caballo es un caballo por supuesto por supuesto! El pozo escucha esto; ¡Soy Sr. Ed!

A Horse is a horse of course of course! Well listen to this; I am Mr. Ed!

Mr. Ed is bi-lingual.  rotfl 
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
65captin
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:29 pm

lol...I guess I forgot who would be reading this.
"Dont you ever say an unkind word about Morris Day and Jerome!"
 
CaptainT38
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:20 pm

This is my first post to Airliners.....glad to be aboard. I work for a scheduled airline and there are times when it comes to having a crewmember fly a revenue flight without a uniform. If for some reason we have a crew member at the airport and we have a scheduled flight crewmember that isn't available for whatever reason, sure we will stick the other crewmember on that flight with uniform or not. It sure does beat canceling a flight due to a crewmember being without a uniform.
 
oly720man
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:57 pm

As a "civilian", though aeronautical engineer, I have sat in the captain's seat in a BA L1011 and in the copilot's seat of a BA B767, both en route MAN/JFK or vv, as the corresponding crew member has gone down the back for whatever reason.

These were the good old days when cockpit visits were much more relaxed and there were other passengers visiting the cockpit at the time when I was in the L1011 main seat. I was pointing out what various of the dials meant to some of the visitors, one of whom thought I was a "plain clothes" pilot. The L10 pilot was getting close to retirement and I think he was not as hidebound by regulations as other pilots may have been, or maybe he just wanted someone else to do the chat. Nice bloke, though. I wonder if he did retire to a house on Cape Cod as he planned to do.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
IL76TD
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:28 pm

Who says crews have to be in uniform in the cockpit, would you want to wear a tie and dress slacks for 9 hours while you are working in a private place...no.

Almost all cargo crews change out of their uniforms into t-shirts and shorts the second they get on the plane, who says a captain must be in full uniform in the cockpit.
 
howard500
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RE: How Is This Legal?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:42 pm

BoeingFor Ever,

seriously, relax.... its ok..... we all make mistakes. Yours is a pretty big assumption and a ridiculous conclusion so let it go.....

To the author of te picture...... thank you for sharing!!
advice is a form of nostalgia

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