howard500
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Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:57 am

Hi guys,

Just wondering what your opinions are on this. I mean, in a way it seems logical that a side joystick is the most efficient system yet.... It saves space and thus allows for a useful table to take its place for flight paperwork among other things, plus it requires minimal pilot movement to direct the aircraft.....

Having said this, to me, a good old yoke feels much better than a skimpy joystick!!!!  Smile Plus I see the yoke as a trademark for Boeing, something that keeps their identity..... but is this a pride vs practicality issue?? And of course there is Embrear, Bombardier, Dornier.......

Please dont miss interpret.... this is NOT a A vs B!!! Just looking to see if there are any genuinely intelligent arguments....  Smile
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qwerty
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:04 am

NO. And I sure hope I am correct.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:07 am

No, Boeing pilots wants the driving wheel whatever the cost! *lol*

Micke//FÖ  Wink
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HAWK21M
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:17 am

No Way.Boeing would never do that.
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isitsafenow
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:23 am

Boeing is not a "monkey see-monkey do" company. Not in this generation at least.
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leelaw
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:30 am

If they can offer interchangeable engines on the 787, why not interchangeability between yolk and sidestick depending on the preference of the operator?
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SK A340
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:39 am

Will BMW put flashers in their side mirrors? Eventhough they are good to traffic safety the answer is NO. Reason: Mercedes "introduced" them.

The same argument can be used on the question in the topic of this thread (with the exception that yolk/sidestick doesn't affect the safety, or does it?). Airbus was first.

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 5):
If they can offer interchangeable engines on the 787, why not interchangeability between yolk and sidestick depending on the preference of the operator?

I think this has been discussed before and the answer is that they have to certify to different aircrafts, one with yolk and one with sidestick.

/Micke
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:45 am

Quoting SK A340 (Reply 6):
Airbus was first.

Actually, if you want to get into it, Lockheed was first with the F-16.
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nucsh
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:49 am

Why fix what's not broken? The yolk has worked for generations.

I've had the chance to fly in both Airbus and Boeing simulators (A320 and 737-400, both USAirways), and I definately prefer the yolk. Same thing with private aircraft, I've flown C172s and an SR22, I prefer the C172.


I guess it's just all up to personal preferance.  bigthumbsup 
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SK A340
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:49 am

As I wrote Mercedes "introduced" them, I should have written Airbus was "first". Sorry about that.  Embarrassment

/Micke
 
khenleydia
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 5):
If they can offer interchangeable engines on the 787, why not interchangeability between yolk and sidestick depending on the preference of the operator?

I have often thought about this. As more planes go fly-by-wire, wouldn't it be possible for A or B to offer customers whatever they want? Want a yoke? Okay... plug it in! Want a joystick? Okay. Clearly they would have to make layout change in the flightdeck for this, but I am sure they could come up with a pretty easy and cost effective way to do it.

Besides, when they are working on billion dollar orders, I am sure the buyer wouldn't mind spending a couple hundred grand to equipped their flight decks with the control of their choice.

Crazy thinking, I know!

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nucsh
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:57 am

I'm not entirely sure, but wouldn't an interchangeable cockpit, as in the instance of the yolk/sidestick, require different type-ratings per configuration?
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N1120A
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:03 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 5):
If they can offer interchangeable engines on the 787, why not interchangeability between yolk and sidestick depending on the preference of the operator?

That would change a good deal of the systems and wiring, and not allow for a common pilot type certificate because of inherent differences in flying.

Quoting Nucsh (Reply 8):
I've had the chance to fly in both Airbus and Boeing simulators (A320 and 737-400, both USAirways), and I definately prefer the yolk. Same thing with private aircraft, I've flown C172s and an SR22, I prefer the C172.

I understand prefering a yoke, but a 172 to an SR-22?? That is like comparing an RJ to a 747
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:23 am

G´day

Not until the day one takes over the other will Boeing adopt the side stick. Boeing just does not do sidesticks (eek) and will stick with the oversized stick they call yoke, though it works the exact same way as the side stick. That of course applies to Boeings more advanced designs only, i.e. the 777 and the future 787 series.

On all older, non electric Boeing models and the A 300/310 the yoke is mechanically linked to control surfaces using pulleys and cables, requiring some force to operate and thus giving pilots a perceived feel of flying the plane.

So much for two philosophies/systems. I am at a total loss as to how the yolk control system works. Some system sensing at which point the yolk is squeezed and then make the plane move that way?  Wink

Cheers

Peter
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howard500
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:47 am

Thanks for your comments!

It seems to me that an option for a yoked/sidesticked 787 seems slightly strange when it comes to type certifiction but is it really that different? I mean, sure it would take a pilot some hours to get used to the difference but it would be less difficult/logistically complicated than when an A319 pilot transfers to an A330, would it? In the Boeing case would be the same aircraft just slightly different initial feel... Im sure that if they wanted to they could but I dont think it would be worth it...

On the other hand what Nucsh says is quite true why chage something that has proven itself very worthy? Although the answer to this might be "evolution" not "revolution"  Wink

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Pihero
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:14 am

Hello,
Are you guys trying to make an omelet by separating the yolk from the stick? laughing 

Heavierthanair,

On all older, non electric Boeing models and the A 300/310 the yoke is mechanically linked to control surfaces using pulleys and cables, requiring some force to operate and thus giving pilots a perceived feel of flying the plane.

Not right.The main link is to hydraulic jacks.The only "feel" is totally artificial in normal ops.

The argument linking the yoke to a phallic symbol never fails to amaze me.

regards.
Contrail designer
 
gearup
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:52 am

Sure they will....as soon as they figure out a way to make it look as if they invented it, or at least make sure that they don't come close to giving Airbus the credit for being the first to use it on a commercial aircraft.

GU
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mtnmanmakalu
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:01 am

Quoting Gearup (Reply 16):
Sure they will....as soon as they figure out a way to make it look as if they invented it, or at least make sure that they don't come close to giving Airbus the credit for being the first to use it on a commercial aircraft.

Why so angry, Gearup? Why should Boeing change something that has worked for them for many, many years. There isn't a clear advantage either way, so why change?

Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder about Boeing.... I'm sorry you don't make any "adult-sized" commercial A/C in Canada... maybe that's why you are grumpy!  Wink
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N766UA
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting SK A340 (Reply 6):
why not interchangeability between yolk and sidestick depending on the preference of the operator?

Because pilots aren't that fond of eggs!  Big grin

Seriously, though... Boeing has always built pilot's airplanes and pilots traditionally prefer the control column. Embraer and Canadair realize this as well and still build jets with yokes.
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gearup
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 17):
Why so angry, Gearup?

????????????? 'fraid you lost me on that one!!!

GU
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Starlionblue
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:57 am

Yolk - in an egg
Yoke - in an airplane.

Well if they ever want to get really serious about weight savings Boeing will have to do the stick. It weighs hundreds of pounds less given all the support structure those Boeing yokes have to keep them upright. Big grin
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MEA310
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting SK A340 (Reply 6):
Will BMW put flashers in their side mirrors? Eventhough they are good to traffic safety the answer is NO. Reason: Mercedes "introduced" them.

Great comparison!
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777STL
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:46 am

A lot of you are assuming a side stick is better than a yoke, which is not necessarily true. I don't see any huge advantages of one over the other, so why should Boeing develop a side stick?

If it ain't broke don't fix it.....
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keesje
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:47 am

If the customers want it,

Boeing will probably introduce the side stick.
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airfrnt
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting Howard500 (Thread starter):
Just wondering what your opinions are on this. I mean, in a way it seems logical that a side joystick is the most efficient system yet.... It saves space and thus allows for a useful table to take its place for flight paperwork among other things, plus it requires minimal pilot movement to direct the aircraft.....

It's also important to note that Boeing does force feedback via the yoke. While the yoke is no longer pysically linked to the subsystems that move the plane, that feedback is important.

Think of it this way. When my car does cruise control, the feeling of the gas pedal still moving via the computer gives me a sense that the system is working and how much gas is being used via a tactile response.
 
flyabunch
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:01 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 7):
Actually, if you want to get into it, Lockheed was first with the F-16.

Actually, it was General Dynamics that designed the F-16. Lockeed got the line much later after several corporate mergers and consolidations in the aerospace industry.

The F-16 sidestick was ridiculed by the USAF at the time of its invention. It was only after they got some "stick" time that they realized the increase in versatility it gave the pilot. The stick takes one hand. Leaving the other completely free to do other things.

Althogh a yoke technically takes only one hand, the normal usage is two.

I like the yoke too, but I think its actual need has become somewhat superficial with fly-by-wire.

Mike
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:12 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 24):

It's also important to note that Boeing does force feedback via the yoke. While the yoke is no longer pysically linked to the subsystems that move the plane, that feedback is important.

Think of it this way. When my car does cruise control, the feeling of the gas pedal still moving via the computer gives me a sense that the system is working and how much gas is being used via a tactile response.

Nothing is stopping a manufacturer from implementing force feedback in a stick, so this argument doesn't really hold water. If Boeing go with a stick, I have no doubt it will have force feedback.

However, the difference between Airbus and Boeing stick/yoke is much deeper. While the Boeing yoke deflects control surfaces in proportion to input, the Airbus stick rolls and pitches the plane in proportion to input (the computers decide how to deflect the control surfaces). That's a very important difference. So force feedback in the Airbus case would be somewhat meaningless since it has no reference to reality.
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N766UA
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:12 am

The simple fact is that Boeing and Airbus don't design airplanes in the same fashion. Boeing designs jets based on what customers and pilots want, Airbus designs jets based on what the engineers want. This is a big reason Airbus has the sidestick and Boeing has the yoke. On the 777, for example, Boeing used a large test group of pilots and found the majority prefer a traditional column.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 27):
The simple fact is that Boeing and Airbus don't design airplanes in the same fashion. Boeing designs jets based on what customers and pilots want, Airbus designs jets based on what the engineers want. This is a big reason Airbus has the sidestick and Boeing has the yoke. On the 777, for example, Boeing used a large test group of pilots and found the majority prefer a traditional column.

An extremely simplistic and flawed analysis. If Airbus didn't listen to the customers, they wouldn't sell any planes.

Talk to some pilots who have flown both Boeing and Airbus (SlamClick comes to mind). You will find that many of them end up saying things like: "A plane is a plane, there are plenty of differences between them, and the stick/yoke is only one." I'm pretty sure for every weird disliked idiosyncrasy on Airbus they they could also name one for Boeing, and even between types.

This debate is way overblown IMHO. It's no huge deal really. When choosing an airplane, the stick/yoke is just one factor of thousands, and will never be the overriding factor. If carrier x wants likes everything about plane y except for the fact that it has a stick (or a yoke  Wink )you think they will not choose it?. Get real!
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 25):
Actually, it was General Dynamics that designed the F-16.

Gah! I know that. I had just been doing some photo corrections of newer F-16s to "Lockheed F-16" and I had it on the brain, I guess. Thanks, Flyabunch, for correcting the corrector when it needed to be done  Embarrassment
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mrocktor
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:46 am

The yoke is heavier;

The yoke is larger, it occupies significant volume outside the cockpit;

The yoke is less reliable since it has more moving parts;

The yoke occupies valuable cockpit space and blocks part of the instrument panel;

The Airbus A320, A330 and A340 have millions of flight hours between them without a single safety incident caused by the non force feedback sidestick.

Conclusion: Boeing did not adopt the sidestick for the 777 and 787 exclusively because the sidestick has become associated with Airbus and they lack the moral courage to admit their competitor´s solution is a good one.

Bombardier has announced a sidestick on the C-Series, if Embraer adopts a sidestick on their next design as well maybe Boeing will finally be able to say "well, the sidestick has become the industry standard so we have no choice but to use it".

mrocktor
 
keesje
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:55 am

the RRJ (with Boeing consultation) also will have a side stick.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:58 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 30):
The yoke is heavier;

The yoke is larger, it occupies significant volume outside the cockpit;

The yoke is less reliable since it has more moving parts;

The yoke occupies valuable cockpit space and blocks part of the instrument panel;

The Airbus A320, A330 and A340 have millions of flight hours between them without a single safety incident caused by the non force feedback sidestick.

Conclusion: Boeing did not adopt the sidestick for the 777 and 787 exclusively because the sidestick has become associated with Airbus and they lack the moral courage to admit their competitor´s solution is a good one.

An equally simplistic and flawed analysis. Boeing has more know-how invested in the stick if nothing else. Why reinvent the wheel (ok the stick...) if they know what they're doing with the yoke.

There are multitudinous reasons why Boeing has the yoke and Airbus has the stick, and the whole issue can't be condensed down to a few paragraphs.

Boeing and Airbus planes are way more similar than they are different. If you want different, look at some Rutan designs. Now those are radically different. But an A320 and a B737NG? Sure there are significant differences, but they are both tubes with wings, have a traditional planform, one engine under each wing, flaps, slats, hydraulics, tricycle, 3-3 seating, oxygen masks, bleed air systems, and APU in the ass, etc etc etc..... Similarities galore.

[Edited 2005-03-31 00:02:12]
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777STL
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:02 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 30):
Conclusion: Boeing did not adopt the sidestick for the 777 and 787 exclusively because the sidestick has become associated with Airbus and they lack the moral courage to admit their competitos solution is a good one.


Oh now that's clever!(rolls eyes)

Or maybe Boeing doesn't see the need to redevelop control and computer systems to replace something that has been proven to work?

When was the last time a Boeing aircraft crashed because the yoke broke?

-77

[Edited 2005-03-31 00:04:35]
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AR1300
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:02 pm

Quoting SK A340 (Reply 6):
Will BMW put flashers in their side mirrors? Eventhough they are good to traffic safety the answer is NO. Reason: Mercedes "introduced" them

Well,Airbus ''introduced''winglets and wingfences,and Boeing and the rest copied them.
Remember, before the A300-600 no Airliner had wingfences or so,after that came the A320 famliy with the introduction of wingfences in the -200 series,and after that almost every aircraft has some sort of thing installed, including B on the 744's wich was the first Boeing ac with winglets.Then they started fitting them on the 737NG,retrofitting them on 727's,now the 757's, etc.Resuming, Airbus discovered the ''winglet technology'' and after that everybody used it.
So even if they introduced them, they could copy it.


Mike
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zotan
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:43 pm

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 30):
The yoke is less reliable since it has more moving parts;

Ya, I hate it when the yoke breaks in flight.
 
ha763
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:53 pm

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 34):
Well,Airbus ''introduced''winglets and wingfences,and Boeing and the rest copied them

That is incorrect. The 747-400 was the first commercial airliner to introduce winglets. However, Airbus was the first and so far only manufacturer to use wingtip fences.
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:13 pm

It ain't gonna happen. If Boeing is going to lose this war, they are going to lose it on its own merits. duck 
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AR1300
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:13 pm

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 36):
That is incorrect. The 747-400 was the first commercial airliner to introduce winglets. However, Airbus was the first and so far only manufacturer to use wingtip fences.

I knew that.What I meant is that before Airbus, nobody thought on anything
to add to wingtips.After Airbus and the wingfences, all the others also implemented similar technology, being Boeing the first in the winglets.
As I said:

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 34):
Airbus discovered the ''winglet technology'' and after that everybody used it.

''Winglet technology'' meaning to add something in the wingtips.

Mike
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tito
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:07 pm

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 30):
The Airbus A320, A330 and A340 have millions of flight hours between them without a single safety incident caused by the non force feedback sidestick.

Actually, for the A320 a near disaster in 2001:

http://www.aviationtoday.com/sia/20010801.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_23_15/ai_75307962

Although the F/O reacted quickly and saved the day, I wonder how much faster the captain's sidestick problem would have been caught if the sticks had back driven feedback?
 
ha763
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:32 pm

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 38):
I knew that.What I meant is that before Airbus, nobody thought on anything
to add to wingtips.After Airbus and the wingfences, all the others also implemented similar technology, being Boeing the first in the winglets.

That again is incorrect. People have been researching wingtip modifications well before Airbus came into existance. Research into this has been going on since the 1800s. In fact, Frederick W. Lanchester patented a vertical endplate that reduced drag on a wing in high lift conditions in 1897.

In the early 1970s, NASA researches did research on wingtip airflow and came up with the winglet. McD, with assistance from NASA, actually retrofitted a CO DC-10 with winglets in 1981. After the tests, McD thought about offering winglets as a retrofit to other DC-10s, but the costs of doing so caused them not to offer them. Also, Boeing actually originally evaluated winglets for the 747 in 1977.

http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Concept2Reality/winglets.html
 
chicoco
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:51 pm

Maybe im wrong but I think the Gulfstream were first. Im not sure if it was the G3 or G4.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:15 pm

Quoting Tito (Reply 39):
Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 30):
The Airbus A320, A330 and A340 have millions of flight hours between them without a single safety incident caused by the non force feedback sidestick.

Actually, for the A320 a near disaster in 2001:

http://www.aviationtoday.com/sia/20010801.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_23_15/ai_75307962

Although the F/O reacted quickly and saved the day, I wonder how much faster the captain's sidestick problem would have been caught if the sticks had back driven feedback?

This error could also have happened on a 777 or any other FBW aircraft. Feedback would not have helped. The error was not caused by the stick, but by faulty wiring of the stick. Stick or yoke in this case is irrelevant.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting Nucsh (Reply 8):
Why fix what's not broken? The yolk has worked for generations.

Imagine if everyone followed that logic. You'd probably be writing that post with a stick in the sand and still be living in a cave.

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 25):
Actually, it was General Dynamics that designed the F-16.

Was the F-16 the first aircraft with a side-stick?

Quoting N766UA (Reply 27):
Boeing designs jets based on what customers and pilots want, Airbus designs jets based on what the engineers want.

A bit of a generalization. I would have thought the "commonality," of Airbus cockpits definitely had the flight crew in mind, not the engineers. Btw, all commercial jets are designed with the customers in mind... How else do they sell planes that are only liked by engineers?

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 30):
The Airbus A320, A330 and A340 have millions of flight hours between them without a single safety incident caused by the non force feedback sidestick.

This is a non-issue. If Boeing were to employ a stick as opposed to a yoke they could easily connect it to an pneumatic actuator which would generate all the same effects that a yoke can. Believe it or not, but there are pros and cons to both yokes and sticks....

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 13):
Not until the day one takes over the other will Boeing adopt the side stick.

Why is everyone so certain that they won't, or that airbus won't revert back to the yoke? Ergonomics is a massive part of aircraft design and manufacture nowadays and IMO a manufacturer will not decided to use one or the other purely because of what their main rival is doing. There is a lot more to consider than that.
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gearup
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Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:23 am

RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:31 pm

This is really a silly debate. One day an airline who is considering a 787 purchase but has much Airbus sidestick experience (Air Canada is a possible candidate) is going to say to Boeing, "We want a sidestick, please". What do you think is going to happen? They will put a sidestick on it of course! It may even become optional just like manual or automatic transmission in a car. It is NOT a matter of IF but a matter of WHEN! 0.02c please!  hissyfit 

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monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:35 pm

Not to be technical, but didn't the Boeing candidate for the JSF contract have a sidestick and well as numerous other Boeing Military aircraft?
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mrocktor
Posts: 1390
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57 am

RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:21 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 42):
This error could also have happened on a 777 or any other FBW aircraft. Feedback would not have helped. The error was not caused by the stick, but by faulty wiring of the stick. Stick or yoke in this case is irrelevant.

Thank you. Hurrah for standard operating procedure.

Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 35):
Ya, I hate it when the yoke breaks in flight.

Yes, you would. A jam just before VR is neat. Take it from someone who actually works with safety assessments. Pulling yoke disconnect devices with the end of the runway in sight is pure adrenalin.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 43):
Was the F-16 the first aircraft with a side-stick?

Yes, and the original sidestick on the F-16 prototypes did not move at all, it measured the tension on a rigid stick. Pilots found the movable stick more intuitive and that has been the standard since.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 45):
Not to be technical, but didn't the Boeing candidate for the JSF contract have a sidestick and well as numerous other Boeing Military aircraft?

Yes. You see, sidesticks are actually better for a number of reasons (I listed a few) and the military wouldn't buy "we are putting a yoke on this fighter because its a Boeing trademark and we have been doing this for decades - why change whats not broken?"

mrocktor
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:44 am

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 45):
Not to be technical, but didn't the Boeing candidate for the JSF contract have a sidestick and well as numerous other Boeing Military aircraft?

Nope. The following US military aircraft have sidesticks or will have them - none of them are Boeing products.

F-16 (Originally General Dynamics, now Lockheed)
F/A-22 (Lockheed)
F-35 (Northrop-Lockheed)

In all fairness, Boeing hasn't exactly seen many fighter contracts, usually getting the heavies where they'll put a fighter-style center stick as of late (such as with the C-17). Last fighter contract Boeing received was for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, and those feature a center stick, but as the F/A-18E/F is an extension of the legacy versions of the McDonnell Douglas F/A-18, that's no big surprise.

The X-32 was (to my knowledge) the first and only Boeing military aircraft to sport a sidestick.

[Edited 2005-03-31 16:53:22]
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:49 am

The military using side sticks makes more sense since they are constantly moving that throttle in a dog fight, and thus it helps to have one hand devoted to this, but does it really matter in airliners? It seems more like the personal preference of the pilots from the particular airline. I do have to admit though that while I do like the yoke (just a personal preference), having the fold out tray would be nice. (Would beat the hell out of those damn knee boards!!!) Does Boeing feature any sort of a tray on their a/c?
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: Will Boeing Ever Adopt The Side Joystick?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting Nucsh (Reply 8):



Quoting Nucsh (Reply 8):
I've had the chance to fly in both Airbus and Boeing simulators (A320 and 737-400, both USAirways), and I definately prefer the yolk. Same thing with private aircraft, I've flown C172s and an SR22, I prefer the C172.

I know this is off topic, but I have about 250+ hours in a C172 and had the opportunity to fly an SR-22. Can you honestly say you liked the 172 better?
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."

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