bohica
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4 Engine A/C Takes Off On 3 Engines W/pax?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:49 pm

http://www.toomuchfs.com/reallife/nicequality.htm

Can someone confirm or deny this really happened? To summarize, apparently an airliner had a bad engine and they just "deferred" the engine and strapped the fan so it would not windmill. Then the airline launched the plane full of passengers on only three engines. I just find it hard to believe.

[Edited 2005-04-01 05:50:32]
 
OPNLguy
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RE: 4 Engine A/C Takes Off On 3 Engines W/pax?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:02 pm

One cannot legally defer obvious items like engines and wings... A -3 or 4-engined aircraft can be ferried with an engine inop, but it's a "maintenance ferry" i.e. crew only and never any passengers.

I don't doubt the account of the aircraft depicted in the photos, as there are parts of the world where regulatory compliance isn't a high priority.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
N754PR
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RE: 4 Engine A/C Takes Off On 3 Engines W/pax?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:07 pm

Thats an engine on a trolly so I dont trust this story.... someones Idea of fun me thinks... liar 
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cloudy
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RE: 4 Engine A/C Takes Off On 3 Engines W/pax?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:40 pm

In this story, the crew decides to START a takeoff on 3 engines with passengers. That is indeed unusual, indeed, I believe it is unheard of in first world airlines.

However, there are many incidents in which a pilot will CONTINUE a takeoff when an engine fails after the takeoff begins. In fact, there is a point in the takeoff role after which this is standard procedure. This is because sometimes there is not enough runway left to stop the plane, but there is enough to take off even when short one engine. The FAA requires that there never be a point in the takeoff when the pilot can neither stop the plane nor takeoff safely, even if an engine fails.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: 4 Engine A/C Takes Off On 3 Engines W/pax?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:08 pm

Not quite true. In addition to regulatory approval for the ferry flight, which prohibits all but the basic flight crew, you would also need approval from the aircraft manufacturer. I certainly doubt if Boeing or Airbus would even think of allowing a 3 engine ferry.
Fly fast, live slow
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 4 Engine A/C Takes Off On 3 Engines W/pax?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:15 pm

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 3):
However, there are many incidents in which a pilot will CONTINUE a takeoff when an engine fails after the takeoff begins. In fact, there is a point in the takeoff role after which this is standard procedure. This is because sometimes there is not enough runway left to stop the plane, but there is enough to take off even when short one engine. The FAA requires that there never be a point in the takeoff when the pilot can neither stop the plane nor takeoff safely, even if an engine fails.

The point (actually it's a speed) you are tallking about is referred to as V1. Beyond this point the pilots are committed to take off. Attempting to stop beyond V1 will normally result in a runway overrun.

Reasons for stopping before 80 knots:
- Pretty much any problem.

Reasons for stopping beyond 80 knots but before V1:
- Engine failure.
- Fire.
- Flight control surfaces not responding.
- Other serious problem.

Beyond V1, it's up, up and away regardless. If there is a problem serious enough to warrant landing, you either dump fuel (if you are heavy enough) and land or land directly.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
northseatiger
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RE: 4 Engine A/C Takes Off On 3 Engines W/pax?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:39 pm

This article surfaced about 2 years ago at work but the story was far more detailed and I'm sure there was pictures of the engine actually on the wing.
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JeffSFO
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RE: 4 Engine A/C Takes Off On 3 Engines W/pax?

Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:56 pm

I always got a kick out of this photo from the database:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/224038/L/

But since it's a cargo operator, the missing engine scenario doesn't really pertain to the original question but it's interesting nonetheless.

-Jeff
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: 4 Engine A/C Takes Off On 3 Engines W/pax?

Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:30 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 1):
I don't doubt the account of the aircraft depicted in the photos, as there are parts of the world where regulatory compliance isn't a high priority.

The pressure is on here as well in the cut throat aviation market. I know instances in Europe and the US, where mechanics had to stand their ground when they condidered an aircraft not to be airworthy, but the management insisted on sending the plane out because of the revenue. The refusal to sign off the log book was in many cases detriminial to the mechanic´s career. The management will do anything which keeps their statistics and bottom line look good, as long as theydon´t have to take personal responsibility for it (like the mechanic, who can face jail if he knowingly signs off and unairworthy aircraft).

Jan
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se210
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RE: 4 Engine A/C Takes Off On 3 Engines W/pax?

Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:47 pm

On March 19, 1979, I was booked on DL #930 from MIA-TPA. This was a DL DC-8-61 (N1302L #46029). Although not advised at the gate, once we boarded the aircraft in MIA the Captain said we'd be flying on 3 out of 4 engines and we would have to change planes in PBI (West Palm Beach). I sat in the window seat near the "dead" engine and I remember there being an orange non-ops sticker on it! We flew at a lower altitude but aside from that the flight was routine. It was also a pretty light load, about 30% full. The flight from MIA-PBI was only 18 minutes according to my log. Once in PBI, we switched over to a DL B727-232 (FL#362 N484DA #20864) for the PBI-TPA leg (32 minutes).