UnitedTristar
Posts: 842
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UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:18 am

Sorry if it was already posted, I looked and couldn't find it!

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050404/cgm045.html?.v=3

Looks like AA won't be getting those dormant UA slots after all!

-m

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PPVRA
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:26 am

Great to see them doing well and expanding on the IAD-GRU leg! Too bad it's just another 763, but that's better than nothing  Smile

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
zvezda
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:27 am

I would have thought that LAX-GRU would be a better market for UA than a second IAD-GRU, but LAX-GRU exceeds the range capability of the B767-300ER. UA might not be able to fill a B777-200 on LAX-GRU. Where is a B787-8 when you need one?

BTW, the article doesn't indicate whether or not the new service is daily.
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:30 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
BTW, the article doesn't indicate whether or not the new service is daily.

Actually Zvezda the title of the article is

"United Airlines Adds Second Daily Washington Dulles-Sao Paulo Flight"

 Smile

-m

 airplane 
 
zvezda
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:40 am

UnitedTristar, you're right, of course. I carefully read the body of the article looking for frequency and didn't bother checking the headline.  ashamed 
 
PPVRA
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
UA might not be able to fill a B777-200 on LAX-GRU.

RG's GRU-LAX-NRT is always full, and they are not daily service either. I bet UA could fill them well and I think that would have been a better idea, but I don't know, maybe they don't have available aircraft...

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
erikwilliam
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:32 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
UA might not be able to fill a B777-200 on LAX-GRU

yes they´ll. The majority of people flying from GRU to LAX is going to NRT after, the same with JL and GRU-JFK-NRT, pretty good loads on both legs
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MAH4546
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting Unitedtristar (Thread starter):
Looks like AA won't be getting those dormant UA slots after all!

Not nessecairlily, because it doesn't look like DL is going to be using the other five dormant UA slots.
a.
 
jrlander
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:47 am

I think DL has just requested an extension until October, when they will have a plane available. They are working to convert some more 767-300ER's to international configuration. They do hope to restart service to GIG, though.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:58 am

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 8):
I think DL has just requested an extension until October, when they will have a plane available. They are working to convert some more 767-300ER's to international configuration. They do hope to restart service to GIG, though.

You are correct about DL delaying GIG service. DL wanted to start this service in June, but because of UA delaying the DOT decision, they instead requested to start ATL-SVO, because they had already given up hopes of ATL-GIG. When the DOT finally decided to give DL the traffic rights, DL had already gotten ATL-SVO, and didn't have the necessary aircraft and requestd to delay the start until October (still no decision on that). However, the planes used for Rio would be 763ERs that only operate summer services to Europe (ATL-BCN/FCO, 4th LGW flight), and the reconfigured planes would come for the next summer.
On the topic, I find quite interesting that UA is actually starting to use some of their frequencies. Now with UA using 7 frequencies, how much of their frequencies would be left for DL to compete about?
 
MAH4546
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:07 am

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 8):
I think DL has just requested an extension until October, when they will have a plane available. They are working to convert some more 767-300ER's to international configuration. They do hope to restart service to GIG, though.

Yes, that is true.

However, IIRC, because they did not start the service in June, the slots are not theirs and go back into the pool. Now they and AA must compete with each other for them. Delta definitley has the upper hand, though.

The US-Brazil bilatteral really needs to be updated, though. AA would love to go into many of the smaller Brazilian markets, like Manaus and Belem, but can't because of it.
a.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:00 am

This certainly does put a twist on the fight for frequencies between AA, DL and UA. With UA using these seven, it leaves only seven remaining unused. If UA can make a strong enough case that they will use those remaining seven within a reasonable amount of time, then neither AA or DL will get them.

If UA can't keep those frequencies, I'd expect DL to get the five they want. DL's case would be way stronger than AA given that AA has far more frequencies than DL at the present time.

I agree with MAH4546 that the bilateral between the US and Brazil desperately needs expansion. The number of frequencies available for US carriers is far too few given the amount of traffic between the US and Brazil.
 
incitatus
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:08 am

If the bilateral gets updated, this new second IAD-GRU will suffer a very quick death. United is only adding it to prevent other airlines from getting their hands on UA's dormant frequencies.
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MAH4546
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:41 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
If the bilateral gets updated, this new second IAD-GRU will suffer a very quick death. United is only adding it to prevent other airlines from getting their hands on UA's dormant frequencies.

Very true. I doubt this flight will even last past the winter 05/06 timetable. There really is very little market for a second daily flight. I think UA would have been better off bringing back MIA- or JFK-GRU.
a.
 
daron4000
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:22 am

It seemed like the airplane would be laying over in GRU for a long time? Why is this?
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:25 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Very true. I doubt this flight will even last past the winter 05/06 timetable. There really is very little market for a second daily flight. I think UA would have been better off bringing back MIA- or JFK-GRU.

Contrary to perception, Dulles is a great hub for UA (physical facilites aside). Pretty good yield and strong traffic flows.

The current IAD-GRU performs very strongly. JFK/MIA-GRU would be idiotic as it wouldn't capitalize on UA's growth at IAD...
no wire hangers!
 
incitatus
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting UA744Flagship (Reply 15):
Contrary to perception, Dulles is a great hub for UA (physical facilites aside). Pretty good yield and strong traffic flows.

The current IAD-GRU performs very strongly. JFK/MIA-GRU would be idiotic as it wouldn't capitalize on UA's growth at IAD...

I can agree with that provided the following bits of info:
(i) List of additional destinations that will connect to the new flight and do not connect to the current flight due to the long connect time (I'm guessing none).
(ii) Market size of the local IAD-GRU market (I'm guessing low double digits per day).

If UA wanted to improve its product and availability on the route, it should have placed with 777 with more seats and a real first class product in place of those miserable "F" seats of the 767-300s.
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Bicoastal
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:58 am

This is excellent news. The Dulles Sao Paulo/Rio flight is always packed during the winter. This new departure time is perfect for United's mega bank of flights to/from Dulles (15:00 to 19:00). Once United emerges from bankruptcy, expect new long range aircraft orders (possibly Airbus in return for exit financing) that can be used to enhance the product on this route.
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MAH4546
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:26 am

The new UA flight on IAD-GRU is going to do little but hurt yields. There is definitley a market for DC-Brazil traffic, but one daily flight is more than suffice. The new flight opens no new connecting oppurtunities, and even if it does fill, it will erode yields that UA has on IAD-GRU. The only reason they are bothering with this flight is because they were in jeopardy of losing their dormant frequencies, which are quite valuable. Starting JFK/MIA-GRU, on the otherhand, would bring them back to Sao Paulo's two biggest long-haul O&D markets, and really give Varig some much needed help to fill demand in the market. I don't think they would ever start either flight again, but I do think it would have been better use of the dormant slots.

Also, today UA filed with DOT with reference to the unused frequencies:
http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p80/323612.pdf

UA claims they have no perference over giving them to DL or AA, though there is an obvious bias to AA in the document. Delta wants permanent allocation, while American wants temporary allocation. That gives AA the upper hand, because DL is unlikely to get permanent allocation. AA also already has a station in GIG, while DL doesn't.
a.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:19 pm

Delta wants permanent allocation, while American wants temporary allocation. That gives AA the upper hand, because DL is unlikely to get permanent allocation.

That's actually not true. The DOT's initial award (for a June 1st start) was a permanent award to Delta.

The DOT actually prefers permanent awards. Temporary awards are a pain for the DOT because it just creates more hassle when the frequencies become available further down the road.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:23 pm

United hub to Varig hub has more than enough connecting opportunities to fill two flights a day each way from Dulles (IAD) to Sao Paulo (GRU). I know from first hand experience that these flights are packed daily during the winter. Plus the aircraft are filled with cargo and I'm sure United cargo sales will fill the second flight, too.
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tonytifao
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:29 pm

Did I get this right? United will add additional flight from IAD to GRU, but on Varig?
 
tonytifao
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:41 pm

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 20):
United hub to Varig hub has more than enough connecting opportunities to fill two flights a day each way from Dulles (IAD) to Sao Paulo (GRU). I know from first hand experience that these flights are packed daily during the winter. Plus the aircraft are filled with cargo and I'm sure United cargo sales will fill the second flight, too.

This is true. Flying to Brazil during Xmas time is a mess. All flights are completely full.

AA should start flying back to CNF.
 
hardiwv
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:28 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
I agree with MAH4546 that the bilateral between the US and Brazil desperately needs expansion. The number of frequencies available for US carriers is far too few given the amount of traffic between the US and Brazil.

I also agree. The US-Brazil bilateral needs an urgent revision, and it would be important to expand flights to medium-sized destinations in Brazil such as MAO, FOR, CNF and SSA (which could fit the profile of flights such as CO 757).
Of course, with limited positions, all airlines will want to capitalise on the highly profitable flights to GRU.

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 17):
This new departure time is perfect for United's mega bank of flights to/from Dulles (15:00 to 19:00).



Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 20):
United hub to Varig hub has more than enough connecting opportunities to fill two flights a day each way from Dulles (IAD) to Sao Paulo (GRU). I know from first hand experience that these flights are packed daily during the winter. Plus the aircraft are filled with cargo and I'm sure United cargo sales will fill the second flight, too.

Also agree that UA's move was correct. Flights IAD-GRU have very high yields, excellent performance on business/first, and are almost always packed (UA 2004 load performance on the route was 92%).

We could also expect a new daily JJ flight to the US in 2005 (GIG-MIA?). LAX-GRU remains underserved and RG could upgrade its flights.

Rgs,
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 842
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 21):
Did I get this right? United will add additional flight from IAD to GRU, but on Varig?

No its a UA flight but they will code share with RG.

-m

 airplane 
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 842
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:06 pm

And it looks like UA will start additional service from Brazil in addition to the current service with in the next year!

Directly from the DOT filing "Consistent with United's assurances that it would reuse these frequency's it has today announced that it will start a second daily Washington Dulles-Sao Paulo service beginning on October 31, 2005...United is still actively reviewing its Brazil service with an eye on resuming use of its remaining Brazil frequency's by next year."

Another weekly flight...hummm...maybe a SFO GRU flight. Make it so it meets up with the pacific bank. Would probably make a killing!

-m

 airplane 
 
incitatus
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 23):
Flights IAD-GRU have very high yields, excellent performance on business/first, and are almost always packed (UA 2004 load performance on the route was 92%).

Hardiw: Are you saying the passenger load factor on that route was 92% over the year? I find that surprising. From UA's monthly traffic press releases, the avg load factor on the Latin American routes was 77.7% in 2004. Also it is very difficult to fill up a plane to South America because of no-shows.
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hardiwv
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:53 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):
Hardiw: Are you saying the passenger load factor on that route was 92% over the year?

Incitatus, the figure was for January/05:

UA load factor to Brazil in January/05 was 92%, while UA's load factor for its world network was 76.1% and UA's load factor US-Latin America was 76.6%. It shows that load factor US-Brazil are substantially higher than UA's world and regional load factor and underscores that the airline took the right decision to double its flights IAD-GRU.

UA's load factor to Brazil for the year 2004 was 88%, also a very high load factor.

Although now-show is common on routes to/from Brazil, airlines consistently overbook their flights to counteract this problem.

Rgs,
 
hoya
Posts: 460
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:57 am

From where is UA getting the extra plane from? I thought that they were experiencing a shortage of widebody international aircraft. Are they converting some of their domestic 767s?
Hoya Saxa!!
 
hardiwv
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:02 pm

Quoting Hoya (Reply 28):
From where is UA getting the extra plane from?

Good questions. But I think they have time to sort it out as the second flights IAD-GRU will only start 31 October/05. I expect a convertion of a domestic 763.

Rgs,
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:57 am

Because this new flight begins in October when the busy European travel season is ending, the aircraft will likely come from one of the Atlantic routes. United just added an additional London frequency (763) to and from IAD for the seasonal increase traffic. That equipment will likely be shifted to the GRU route in October. Note that United had a spare 763 last winter to wet lease to SAS for the winter to fly IAD to Copenhagen. SAS has now resumed the route with its own equipment.
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hardiwv
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 25):
Another weekly flight...hummm...maybe a SFO GRU flight

There is a lack of nonstop flight between US's West Coast and Brazil. Currently the only flight is RG's GRU-LAX, which is constantly overbooked. If I'm not mistaked UA operated in the past LAX-GRU.

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 24):
No its a UA flight but they will code share with RG

Correct, UA's two daily flights IAD-GRU will be codeshared with RG, as is the case of the ORD-GRU flight. RG's flights to MIA, JFK and LAX are also full codeshare with UA.

Rgs,
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
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RE: UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight

Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 31):
There is a lack of nonstop flight between US's West Coast and Brazil. Currently the only flight is RG's GRU-LAX, which is constantly overbooked. If I'm not mistaked UA operated in the past LAX-GRU

Yes, early 90's with a B747SP.
Right now the only international daily options for LAX > GRU (I mean not changing in a US airport) are CM via Panamá and TA via SAL/SJO/LIM. TA also gives the option of SFO > GRU
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