NYCAAer
Topic Author
Posts: 595
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New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:18 pm

I've been hearing this a lot in the company rumor mill. I don't have anything to substantiate it yet, but you never know. I heard about AA reinstating JFK-BRU from other employees long before any mention had been made of it anywhere else.

Supposedly American is considering starting New York JFK-Dusseldorf and reinstating JFK-Frankfurt using 757s with an all-coach service, much like the BOS-MAN and new BOS-SNN flights.

AA has had a 10% gain in passenger traffic in the New York O & D market and they may be trying to capitalize on it.

Star Alliance killed us the last time we entered (and subsequently exited) the JFK-FRA market, so this would be the third time AA would be trying to gain a foothold on the route. CO used to fly EWR-DUS with a 2-class service on a 757 up until a few years ago.

It would be great if we started these new routes, but I'm less than thrilled about working a 757 on such a long route. Time will tell if it all pans out!
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:49 pm

I would like to see DFW-MUC on a widebody rather than all these B757 services to other destinations.  Wink


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
airstatdfw
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:55 pm

DFW-MUC would be nice would go in the new Terminal very nicely.  bouncy 
 
LAXintl
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:02 pm

Like you mentioned USA-Germany is an extremely tough market to crack as a result of the Star Alliance and its marketing power.

US airlines has slowy drawn down service to Germany in the last decade, (AA reductions, DL FRA hub reduction, TWA closure) and those new routes added generally been with smaller equipment and operated on more low key basis, and often avoiding the FRA and MUC Star hubs.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ACDC8
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:09 pm

The all coach class AA757 JFK-DUS would be a nice treat, competing against LTU and LH (Privateair) A319 biz jet EWR-DUS.

cheers,
Patrick
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Udo
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:17 pm

Quoting AirStatDFW (Reply 2):
DFW-MUC would be nice would go in the new Terminal very nicely.

T2 at MUC? The Star Alliance Mafia around its boss Mayrhuber would grant no access to rival "organisations"...  Wink


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
padcrasher
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:19 pm

Where do you get the 10% figure from for gain in NYC O&D?
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:25 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 4):
The all coach class AA757 JFK-DUS would be a nice treat, competing against LTU and LH (Privateair) A319 biz jet EWR-DUS.

An all coach 757 competing against a biz jet? come on... AA is not that good, especially after dropping MRTC...

I can rather see more service into FRA or MUC rather than JFK-DUS.

Much more I am thrilled to see how AA will react to the change in the Swiss market as LX is moving into Star... UA has some presence there, but so far ZRH has been a "strong" OW hub... in the means of a strong OW presence...

DL has been operating ATL-STR for years now, with a 763, STR could work for other airlines as well...

As to new Berlin service... we will see...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
BOSSAN
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:30 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 5):
T2 at MUC?

I think AirStatDFW meant DFW's new international Terminal D.
 
Jettravel
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:31 pm

Quoting Udo
The Star Alliance Mafia around its boss Mayrhuber would grant no access to rival "organizations".

Don´t forget: Without this "Mafia" MUC airport would be a province airport as before.
 
Leskova
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:51 pm

Hmm... an "all coach B757" from FRA to JFK, competing with LH's several daily flights, as well as a daily SQ B747-400 and a DL B767-300?

Not sure about how you guys see the chances - but I can see AA quitting FRA-JFK for the third time not far down the line...

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
ACDC8
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:06 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 7):
An all coach 757 competing against a biz jet? come on... AA is not that good, especially after dropping MRTC

What I meant was, it would be neat to see, an all econo class of OneWorld flying along an all business class of Star. I wasn't trying to compare services or anything, just trying to point out the opposites. Unfortunately, I couldn't see it happening because there is more demand for business traffic from the Rhein-Ruhr area to the New York area then there is for tourists, at least thats what the DUS airport management has said.

cheers,
Patrick
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Udo
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:12 pm

Quoting Jettravel (Reply 9):
Don´t forget: Without this "Mafia" MUC airport would be a province airport as before.

You mean a province airport like VIE?  Wink


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Andreas
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:13 pm

Depends on premises! Last time I flew AA, which was in late February...LHR-JFK, I liked it a lot..the seat pitch was pretty good, so there could be an alternative! Now if they go back to 31'' AND use a 757...I'm afraif Leskova is dead right...they'll give up VERY SOON!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
PRGLY
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:18 pm

How far is CO with their plans to start operating PRG? Or any other carrier will join the party?
just fly - it is nice
 
VORFMD
Posts: 325
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:53 pm

@Udo,

LH did and will do their best to keep VIE a "provincial" Airport.

Cheers
Martin
 
jasepl
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:58 pm

Shouldn't AA try to get to other European markets too? They fly to barely a handful of destinations as it is. Strange, albeit unsurprising, for the world's biggest airline.
 
Billy
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:17 pm

It is true that AA has a number of German airports on their list of 757 all-econ services. However, the process is entirely academic at the moment and the German route analysis is purely based upon the theoretical range of their equipment. That includes FRA-JFK but also includes JFK-STR, LYS. There are also optins to flip a 76 to a 75 including BOS-CDG and BRU-JFK. It should also be mentioned that there are some Brazilian options in there too so it is not entirely safe to assume that the capacity will come to Europe.
 
gkirk
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:41 pm

Anything more on the rumoured JFK-NCL Billy, or is it just that - a rumour?
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Billy
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:06 pm

Until it happens, it is a rumour. However, that's not to say people are not working towards making this happening.
 
cornish
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:07 pm

I find the idea of an AA all coach service between JFK and FRA somewhat odd I have to say. OK I can understand that Star Alliance would compete heavily on this route, but I still think there must be some sort of business market for AA to capture to make the route worthwhile.

OK they may not pick up much of the Germany orginating traffic, but surely there are enough business flyers based in NYC who have accounts with AA to put enough bums on seats in the front cabin to bring in some worthwhile money on the route - surely they'd prefer to fly direct than via LHR, ORD or wherever just to stick with oneworld carriers.

I just can't see why they'd want to operate an all economy service between two of the largest financial centres in the world, when with a bit of effort they could get a decent higher yield passenger load on board.

Ok, maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but I'm surprised why they don't fly it at all - despite Star competition.

[Edited 2005-04-05 11:12:00]
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
BA380
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:12 pm

The AA all coach service to DUS will be up against stiff competition: the Privatair all business service and LTU's service. This would seem odd. If I were them, I would look to use a 767 (or a 757 with some premium seats).
cabin crew: doors to automatic and cross-check...
 
cornish
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:17 pm

Quoting BA380 (Reply 21):
the Privatair all business service and LTU's service. This would seem odd. If I were them, I would look to use a 767 (or a 757 with some premium seats).

I guess they would reckon that LTUs flights would have few US originating passengers on it.

Again though, I have to agree that surely it would make sense to put some business seats on board - it wouldn't need that many filled on a 757 and there must be enough AA frequent flyers in the NYC area with business in the Ruhr to justify doing so (again avoiding the need to change in LHR or train from BRU or wherever).
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Udo
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:41 pm

Quoting VORFMD (Reply 15):
LH did and will do their best to keep VIE a "provincial" Airport.

We shouldn't forget the AUA group's Star Alliance entry secured the hub status for VIE. Without LH's and Star's backing VIE would be in danger becoming a truly provincial airport.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
NYCAAer
Topic Author
Posts: 595
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:23 pm

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 6):
Where do you get the 10% figure from for gain in NYC O&D?

From meetings and forums held by local management for AA flight and ground personnel at JFK. Load factors have increased substantially from JFK.
 
MCIrunway
Posts: 43
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:34 pm

ATL-STR does pretty well for DL, right? I would think Stuttgart is a decent option due to a nice mix of business and tourist traffic. But of course that's speculation on my part, I don't know any numbers.
 
Jettravel
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:50 pm

"Quoting Udo: Without LH's and Star's backing VIE would be in danger becoming a truly provincial airport."

Oh now you are a supporter of Star Alliance. In your statement from Tue Apr 5 2005 08:17:29 you called them "Mafia".
Fact for MUC and VIE is a big growth after the homecarrier´s found or joined Star Alliance.
 
rjpieces
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:05 am

I'd much rather see AA expand elsewhere in Europe, rather than entering JFK-FRA.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ssides
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:13 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 3):
Like you mentioned USA-Germany is an extremely tough market to crack as a result of the Star Alliance and its marketing power.

You're right. However, the brilliant US and EU antitrust regulators could care less. They'd rather destroy Oneworld than pay any attention to this little tidbit.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
fraT
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:45 am

Quoting MCIrunway (Reply 25):
ATL-STR does pretty well for DL, right? I would think Stuttgart is a decent option due to a nice mix of business and tourist traffic. But of course that's speculation on my part, I don't know any numbers.

Delta used to fly STR-JFK as well. They dropped the route so I don't think AA would make money there. The only U.S. carrier who could make a profit on this route is CO as they are the only carrier with a hub in the NYC area. Plus they use 757s on the transatlantic runs.
 
N1120A
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:54 am

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 7):
An all coach 757 competing against a biz jet? come on... AA is not that good, especially after dropping MRTC...

Well, not exactly all coach. Sold as all coach, but with domestic F seats up front that go to full Y and elite pax

Quoting Billy (Reply 17):
There are also optins to flip a 76 to a 75 including BOS-CDG and BRU-JFK

Both of those routes are premium heavy, particularly BRU-JFK, so they are more likely to keep the 763 on the route to sell the forward cabins

Quoting Ssides (Reply 28):
Quoting Laxintl (Reply 3):
Like you mentioned USA-Germany is an extremely tough market to crack as a result of the Star Alliance and its marketing power.

You're right. However, the brilliant US and EU antitrust regulators could care less. They'd rather destroy Oneworld than pay any attention to this little tidbit.

Well, given that DL has a rather strong position in the German market, as does BA, and the other non-STAR airlines all have hub flights, I really don't see the problem.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MYT332
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting NYCAAer (Thread starter):
I heard about AA reinstating JFK-BRU

Am I the only one that see's what's wrong there.....Brussels is in Belgium not Germany.
One Life, Live it.
 
GeneralA
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:08 am

Quoting MCIrunway (Reply 25):
ATL-STR does pretty well for DL, right? I would think Stuttgart is a decent option due to a nice mix of business and tourist traffic. But of course that's speculation on my part, I don't know any numbers.

That's correct. According to a local newspaper, STR-ATL had a load factor of 82% last year. Fifteen percent of all passangers have traveled in C, contributing to 45% of the total revenue.

GeneralA

[Edited 2005-04-05 18:10:22]
 
N1120A
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:08 am

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 31):
Am I the only one that see's what's wrong there.....Brussels is in Belgium not Germany.

This thread, contrary to the title, seems to be more about AA offering new service to Germany and how it compares to other european service
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
godbless
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:23 am

Ít is funny how airlines one by one say goodbye to certain destinations, as for example US flights to Berlin or the longhauls to DUS (AA, AC, CO, UA,...) and then all of a sudden a bunch of airlines find it possible to make money there... CO and DL in Berlin, and then LT. LH and maybe AA in DUS... Seems like a new round of price war to arise over the Atlantic.

It seems that the American airlines try to move away from their problems they obviously have in their home market and just shuffle their capacity to international ops (rededicating a few 757's to longhauls seems to prove that). Anyways, it's always great to see new longhauls, just it's no fun seeing them leave again...

Max
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:00 am

Quote:

An all coach 757 competing against a biz jet? come on...
.
.
Hmm... an "all coach B757" from FRA to JFK...
.
.
Again though, I have to agree that surely it would make sense to put some business seats on board - it wouldn't need that many filled on a 757...

What you guys don't realize is that AA will fly a 757 config'ed with F, but sold as all Y. They do this on BOS-MAN. That flight is a great value for AA elites as they get a F seat for a Y price, and only they can book them in advance.

AA isn't going to spend the money to create a subfleet and remove all the F seats on intl 757's.

Quote:

It seems that the American airlines try to move away from their problems they obviously have in their home market and just shuffle their capacity to international ops (rededicating a few 757's to longhauls seems to prove that).

Just like CO.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
NYCAAer
Topic Author
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:22 pm

RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 31):
Am I the only one that sees what's wrong there..... Brussels is in Belgium not Germany.

I was using my reference to the reinstatement of JFK-BRU coming up in the company rumor mill long before it happened and before it appeared on the web that the same could happen with JFK-DUS and JFK-FRA with 757s.
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 793
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:16 am

FACT:

A month or so ago, AA actively participated in a job fair in Berlin,including sending managers and HR staff from LHR & LON.

FACT:

When I inquired for the reason for this I was told it was because AA wanted to employ more German speakers at their DUB res office.

CONCLUSIONS:

Either AA are short of German speaking staff in Dublin ...

or

AA are very much looking to increase their German market by one way or another.

RGDS

Tugmaster
 
NYCAAer
Topic Author
Posts: 595
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:22 am

In the mid-90s AA closed its call centers in Britain, France and Germany and consolidated the operation in Dublin for cost-savings. Recruitment is always ongoing due to attrition, but you never know.
 
Leskova
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting TUGMASTER (Reply 37):
Either AA are short of German speaking staff in Dublin ...

After, occasionally, having to speak to them, I can only say the following: they are very, very short on German speaking staff.

Fortunately, we've got other phone numbers that we can use to call people at AA's office around here, near Frankfurt... as opposed to most of the people in Dublin, they actually know what they're talking about...

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 35):

What you guys don't realize is that AA will fly a 757 config'ed with F, but sold as all Y. They do this on BOS-MAN. That flight is a great value for AA elites as they get a F seat for a Y price, and only they can book them in advance.

Ok - so they might get a few AA elites that way... but they won't be getting much new business upfront that way.

Quoting Ssides (Reply 28):
You're right. However, the brilliant US and EU antitrust regulators could care less. They'd rather destroy Oneworld than pay any attention to this little tidbit.

The small difference is, FRA (as the Star Alliance's main European hub) is not as "closed off" as LHR is: if an airline from the US wants to fly to FRA, the only thing they need is to get slots - at LHR, they could have all the slots they want (not that, in most cases, they'd be able to get any in the first place, but they still couldn't fly there... Oneworld will be in a much better position, as soon as Bermuda II is lifted (if that ever happens).


Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Udo
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:42 am

Quoting Jettravel (Reply 26):
Oh now you are a supporter of Star Alliance. In your statement from Tue Apr 5 2005 08:17:29 you called them "Mafia".

Supporter? Just because I said what's fact at VIE? And yes, I called them "mafia" because LH are famous for blocking other airlines at MUC.

Quoting Jettravel (Reply 26):
Fact for MUC and VIE is a big growth after the homecarrier´s found or joined Star Alliance.

Never denied that.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 35):

AA isn't going to spend the money to create a subfleet and remove all the F seats on intl 757's.

Smart! Extending the previously domestic 757 fleet to trans-Atlantic market is a smart move for AA. They'll get better utilization and higher yields. AA was heavily burned by having

Quoting Leskova (Reply 39):
Ok - so they might get a few AA elites that way... but they won't be getting much new business upfront that way.

If AA keeps their elites happy was expanding the market... they'll do well enough.

I hope these rumors prove true! As soon as my current project ends, I'm heading out on a long vacation!

Udo,
Your tagline had me rolling! If that isn't an a.nutter signature...

Lightsaber
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747firstclass
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:23 am

I am wondering if perhaps, by some way, the CO or DL flights from EWR and JFK-TXL are successful, if AA would try to start ORD-TXL again. The AA presence at the job fair in Berlin has aroused my curiosity.
 
ckfred
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:10 am

In the late 80s and early 90s, AA codeshared with LH out of ORD. LH flew a 747 to FRA and a DC-10 to DUS, while AA flew either a 767-300 or MD-11 to FRA and a 767 to MUC.

AA also tried the ORD-Berlin route for a while.

After LH joined Star, AA flew the DUS route as well, while LH started to fly to MUC. I think AA first dropped MUC, then DUS.

If AA is seriously thinking of adding more flights to Germany, then it needs to do several things.

A) Avoid FRA and MUC. Star defends those two airports. AA ought to consider DUS, Hamburg, STR, or Berlin.

B) Do not scrimp by going to an all-coach service. There is a lot of business traffic between the U.S. and Germany, and an all-coach service won't get any high-revenue passengers.

C) Although adding service from JFK should be explored, I would think that adding service from ORD and/or DFW should also be considered. ORD certainly presents better feed than JFK, which would rely on more O&D traffic. DFW is probably not on Star's radar. I don't know if LH flies into DFW, but would it want to go to the effort of opening another U.S. airport operation, just to compete with AA?
 
VORFMD
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:32 am

RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:23 am

@Udo,

you don´t know many Fact´s about VIE, do you ?
But this is off Topic, only a sidenote. VIE´s growth is mainly because
of Airlines like Air Berlin, Germanwings,Niki, Emirates, Qatar..

You don´t believe me ? Look at VIE Apt Website.

However, we can discuss this in another Thread.

Cheers
Martin
 
Andie007
Posts: 827
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:33 am

Don't think that AA will return back to DUS Intl.
Privatair (LH) is grabbing up all premium pax that holds the high yield on the route. LTU has the main tourist/vacation tourism onboard which demands low fares on the route. Otherwise they fly via the mainhubs FRA/MUC/CDG/LHR/MAD.
Sorry - but DUS will not bring enough earnings for AA.

Same will be on a JFK-FRA route. AA pulled out because of the very high competition on this route. Flying against SQ,LH,DL,CO? No Way!
FRA-MIA would be a better deal.

[Edited 2005-04-05 22:35:24]
 
Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2375
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:25 am

RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:44 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 43):
A) Avoid FRA...

Are you referring to JFK-FRA? Otherwise, AA already flies DFW/ORD-FRA
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
DLHeavy
Posts: 3
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:19 am

Quoting Billy (Reply 17):
That includes FRA-JFK but also includes JFK-STR, LYS

Range is possible, but likelihood not probable, especially on JFK-LYS, which Delta tried for about six months in 2000-2001 using 763. I once flew the return to JFK and counted 6 people in coach.
 
MAH4546
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:34 am

Quoting DLHeavy (Reply 47):

Range is possible, but likelihood not probable, especially on JFK-LYS, which Delta tried for about six months in 2000-2001 using 763.

The flight last longer than that. June 2000 through September 2001 (it was not dropped as a result of 9.11). The 763 is perhaps to big for that route. AA could find more success with a 757. IIRC, AA did fly JFK-LYS in the early 1990s.
a.
 
LMP737
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RE: New Rumored AA Routes To Germany

Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:01 am

I would love for AA to start a Chicago-Salzburg(yes I know it's in Austria). It's right across the border from my favorite part of Germany.
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