GaleaoCumbica
Topic Author
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:11 am

WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:30 am

Hi all,

Sorry if this topic was posted before but I was out for a while and I would like to know why BA left these two countries (Venezuela and Colombia) from their routes.

Thanks

GaleaoCumbica
 
flyyul
Posts: 4405
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:38 am

Not profitable.

Enough said.
 
Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2389
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:25 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:16 am

I never understood that route anyway.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:25 am

Fly 'em to MIA, put them on an AA codeshare, put your T7's on another route.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
RCS763AV
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:39 am

They said no profits. Really weird considering loads in both Y and J were good. Maybe the stopover made it unprofitable. And now people are using AC, IB and AF. AA, DL and CO get almost no traffic from BOG to LON. A real loss for oneworld.
 
JUANR
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2000 12:37 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 3):
Fly 'em to MIA, put them on an AA codeshare, put your T7's on another route.

Not a smart choice for those passengers who has no US Visa, and for those of us who have one is not smart either, who would like to deal with that rude immigration agents at MIA?; it was a bad move from BA which has certainly make IB and AF happy. Fortunately AV plans to restart their non-stop BOG-LON service soon.

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
BAxMAN
Posts: 654
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:13 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 4):
They said no profits. Really weird considering loads in both Y and J were good. Maybe the stopover made it unprofitable. And now people are using AC, IB and AF. AA, DL and CO get almost no traffic from BOG to LON. A real loss for oneworld

Given AA and IB's big presence in BOG and CCS, BA's departure won't be noticed by Oneworld.

The addition of PVG and BLR will be noticed, though.

As to it being a 'bad move' by BA....well, it's bad for the users of the service but good for the company as a whole in using those very expensive slots at LHR to almost dead cert money spinners in China and India.
I need to get laid
 
RCS763AV
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:18 am

Yes, India and China are monney makers. But BOG and CCS werent money loosers either. I think we are seeing the consecuences of aircraft shortage.
AA and IB carry a lot of O&D pax, almost full flights, they have not much seats left to accomodate ex-BA pax. IB carrying more then AA b/c of visa restrictions.
 
BAxMAN
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
Yes, India and China are monney makers. But BOG and CCS werent money loosers either

Clearly, they were money losers. Or at least not earning enough money to justify a slot at LHR.

BA is doing pretty well financially at the moment and management would not have jacked in the routes if they were contributing to that.

If BA had plenty of slots to play around with then BOG and CCS would have stood a good chance of remaining on the schedules. The reality is that every Tom, Dick and Harry wants to fly from LHR so if you're lucky enough to get a slot, you're going to want to get the maximum benefit from it.
I need to get laid
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:05 pm

CCS and BOG used to be flown from LGW. It changed back to LHR around 2002 when service was downgraded from 772 to 763.When it was upgraded back to 772 last year, I thought that they were going to fly to LGW again....

If BA decided to have the flight departing from LHR instead of LGW in the last couple of years is because of something good about the route...
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:28 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 9):
If BA decided to have the flight departing from LHR instead of LGW in the last couple of years is because of something good about the route...

No it was simply a move based on the fact that the longhaul 767s are LHR and that was the aircraft used on those routes for a period. Similarly, NAS/GCM/PLS isare LHR based as the aircraft on those routes are 767s.
 
luisde8cd
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:52 pm

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 10):
No it was simply a move based on the fact that the longhaul 767s are LHR and that was the aircraft used on those routes for a period.

Exactly that's why I expected the flight to move back to LGW when it was upgraded last year from 763 to 772, but that didn't happen. Why did they keep LHR after changing from 763 to 772?
 
Orion737
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:04 pm

If the CCS and BOG slot at LHR was wanted for other routes, then they should have moved it back to LGW where both destinations were served from for years by BCal and then BA.

The real reason they abandoned the routes may have something to do with their partner IB and their greed for total domination in Spanish South America,
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:13 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 12):
If the CCS and BOG slot at LHR was wanted for other routes, then they should have moved it back to LGW where both destinations were served from for years by BCal and then BA.

The real reason they abandoned the routes may have something to do with their partner IB and their greed for total domination in Spanish South America,

Which would be fine for BA - their weakest region, so leave most of it to IB to serve with AA. BA can concentrate on flying to the Middle and Far East.

IB's greed for total domination - a bit strong isn't it. They are maximising the strongest part of their network - nothing greedy in that. That's what any sensible carrier should do. IB is making a profit, so its the sensible thing to do. What are they supposed to do, not link MAD up with the major cities in Latin America ?? Let others take those market opportunities??
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Orion737
Posts: 3044
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:16 pm

No, I suppose it makes good sense for IB, its just that Caracas and Bogota have long been served from London with Bcal, BA and Avianca and Viasa and now we have no direct flight to either destination.

I would like to see AV return with their 767s to London. They would surely clean up!
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:19 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 14):
would like to see AV return with their 767s to London. They would surely clean up!

Yeah would be good to see AV back. I remember when they came back (for a brief while) in around 1999/00 (I think) and we used to see their distinctive orange colours fly past the office window into LHR.

Maybe with their new investment it might happen...
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
luisde8cd
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:57 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 15):
Yeah would be good to see AV back. I remember when they came back (for a brief while) in around 1999/00 (I think) and we used to see their distinctive orange colours fly past the office window into LHR.

I think you are confusing Viasa with Avianca. Avianca has a red livery and it is from Colombia (flew 767s). Viasa (RIP) was from Venezuela and had orange tails. Used to fly DC-10s to LHR.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:01 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 16):
think you are confusing Viasa with Avianca. Avianca has a red livery and it is from Colombia (flew 767s). Viasa (RIP) was from Venezuela and had orange tails. Used to fly DC-10s to LHR.

No no, I was referring to Avianca. I think of their old colur scheme as more deep orange than red. Viasa colurs I know - a lighter orange on white with some blue I beleive. But VIASA had already gone by the time I started work at IATA (in 1998, and VIASA went in around 96/97 I think).

AV was definitely what I was referring to. I think of Virgin colours for example as red - AV more orange to me, but maybe that's just a personal opinion.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Orion737
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:09 pm

Oh the good old days! when we had Viasa operating the DC10 from LHR to Caracas and Margarita and Avianca going into LGW with the 707!
 
Summa767
Posts: 1778
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:14 pm

LON, as well as LAX, are priority routes for AV to restart.
I trust that it will happen this Summer, or for the Winter timetable at the latest. They are working on it as we discuss this matter.

I do understand that there are other routes on which BA can make money more easily: China has been mentioned. Also new flights to India. This, added to the shortage of long haul aircraft influenced the decision to stop CCS and BOG.
BA may want to come back, from LGW perhaps, when all their 767s have been refitted. What I would like, of course, is for some other British airline to take on the route: Somebody like bmi, or Virgin, or evenone of the charter ones..
But for the moment, a clear path for AV suits me just fine.
 
miaskies
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:08 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:21 pm

I am in accordance w/ BA ending flights to BOG & CCS, they really did not make any sense. Yes they may have a percentage of business traffic coming in from the Mid-East and other points but not enough to make the route profitable in my opinion. Another interesting point to be brought up is that historically speaking their really is not a large British/Venezuelan population that either lives in Venezuela and travels to the U.K. or vice versa. For example, their is a large population of Italians/Venezuelans that travel in between the 2 countries and thus AZ can offer flights to MXP & FCO from CCS.
Keyword = Demand.

Just my 2cents...
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
behramjee
Posts: 4369
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:03 pm

With regards to BAs CCS and BOG flights, was it more O&D traffic or were their flights been fed from traffic scattered across Europe bound for these two South American cities?

If BAs main traffic consisted of O&D then I see no reason why they couldnt have switched the route from LHR to LGW if aircraft were available.
 
av757
Posts: 599
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:49 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:00 pm

The BA BOG-LON-BOG route started losing passengers to a point where it was not profitable any more, even with the stopover at CCS. The problem for the Colombian citizens who want to go to and from Europe through LON is the costly visas to the United Kingdom because:

1) The expensive visa that is required to visit the United Kingdom as a Colombian citizen.

2) The mandatory transit visa required for Colombian citizens, even if you are only going to be at LHR for a couple of hours to catch a connecting flight to or from the European continent.

3) The mandatory Schengen visa to enter continental Europe as a Colombian citizen.

So I do not see BOG-LON-BOG as a viable route for AV at the moment when there are other routes that take you direct to Europe without going through LON to reduce travel costs to the Colombian passenger. Plus the fact that AV would also need to incorporate another Boeing 767 to its fleet to be able to operate this route.

The LAX route is also one that may be viable as a non stop flight BOG-LAX-BOG, having a decent operational departure and arrival time to allow passenger connections to and from the west coast of the U.S. and the orient;
and if it includes cargo to compensate for operational costs during the low season of the year since the historical occupation is mainly an ethnic Colombian passenger having good loads only on summer vacations and the Christmas holidays.

AV757
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:07 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 12):
The real reason they abandoned the routes may have something to do with their partner IB and their greed for total domination in Spanish South America

I agree with AV757. BA's withdrawal from CCS and BOG does not have anything to do with IB, othewrsie BA would have pulled out of GRU (daily B747), EZE (4 x week B747), GIG (3 x week B747) and MEX (3 x week B747).

Rgs,
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:19 pm

I think AV has 2 choices if they ever fly to LON again:

1) Fly nonstop with a small 762
2) Fly via CCS with a large 763

Which one do you think will be more profitable for AV if they ever fly to LHR again?
 
miaskies
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:08 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:26 am

I actually think it might be profitable for AV to fly with LON via SJU with 763. VS serves SJU right now w/ cruise charters so that would A) Give AV the chance to re-enter the SJU market which offers cruise connections, caribbean connections etc. B) Give AV a better chance of having better loads on the flight since it will carry SJU passengers as well and not only BOG and C) Offer passengers in the U.K. scheduled service to both SJU and BOG.

Just an idea...what do you guys think?
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
rojo
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:11 am

Quoting MIASkies (Reply 25):
I actually think it might be profitable for AV to fly with LON via SJU with 763. VS serves SJU right now w/ cruise charters so that would A) Give AV the chance to re-enter the SJU market which offers cruise connections, caribbean connections etc. B) Give AV a better chance of having better loads on the flight since it will carry SJU passengers as well and not only BOG and C) Offer passengers in the U.K. scheduled service to both SJU and BOG.

Just an idea...what do you guys think?

First, it will be hard for AV to get fifth freedom rights on the SJU-LON-SJU route. AV will have to ask the US government (DOT) but I don't think it will be easy. Second, you have the problem of the US Visa. All Colombian passengers will need a US visa to transit SJU in their way to LON, so you will end up with the same visa problems passengers face if they want to use a US carrier to fly from Colombia to Europe...
 
miaskies
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:08 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:13 am

Good point Rojo...missed that one.
But in my opinion, now a days everyone should just get the VISA anyway and just have it.

As for the 5th freedom rights, I would really try and apply for it see what happens. Didn't AV wayback when serve a European route through BOG-SJU?
Was that a fuel stop or did they have fifth freedom on that route?
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
bogota
Posts: 652
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RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:50 am

I was a regular on the route, now switched to AF as IB are not up to standard for me. AA is out of the question as the US is out of the question if it is just for transit. BA used to have full flights all the time until they moved down to LGW. Then things started downhill, it was noticeable through the years and many times I had to do something different as connections became ridiculously scarce. Then came the Visa problems, then came all the dissasters in Venezuela which really scared people away. I made a 20 hr flight via Barbados once and moved away until things normalized in Venezuela. Then came the strikes in Venezuela, then the 767 which was really slow. It would take me two more hours from LHR to BOG than FRA to BOG on LH. The 767´s were falling apart, video never worked, there was always a problem, the planes were always going tech. I think if BA had planned to kill the route, they did a fantastic job. I kept being a BA fan, because I simply liked it, but they did a fantastic work in killing that fan in me. I do have to say their crews are superb, they kept me flying, and in this route the local guys and girls were fantastic. But lets not say much about the managers here which were totally inexperienced in my opinion. Now if I just quoted what the gossip says then there is no wonder why things ended as they ended. I wish BA all the luck, I hope to see them back one day, and for me as a BA fan it did hurt to read the billboards all over Bogota that said AF a new way to see the UK, now daily direct to CDG.
 
dsa
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:22 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:11 am

Not enough demand, not so many Britons are interested in visiting these countries regularly or at all!
Go Skybus!!!!
 
av757
Posts: 599
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:49 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:58 am

MIASkies your idea on the BOG-SJU-LON-SJU-BOG route is a valid one, but operationally speaking for transit passengers with the 9/11 security procedures imposed on AV and that it must comply with in its opsecs it can be a very long and tiring procedure for passengers to endure during the stop over. A lot of people do not want to go through the security hassle that the U.S. imposes on foreigners and the delay it creates for the flight.

The last time AV operated SJU with 5th freedom rights was in 1999-2000 for a few months on the BOG-SJU-FRA-SJU-BOG route, this was eventually cancelled due to the low volume of passenger traffic to and from San Juan from Colombia.

BOG-LON-BOG is best operated on a Boeing 767-200 as a direct flight, the CCS stopover is expensive and our neighbors in Venezuela are also having their share of economic dificulties.

AV757
 
JUANR
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2000 12:37 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting MIASkies (Reply 20):
For example, their is a large population of Italians/Venezuelans that travel in between the 2 countries and thus AZ can offer flights to MXP & FCO from CCS.
Keyword = Demand.

MIA there isn't either large populations of French in Colombia and Venezuela and still AF is now offering daily non stop flights from BOG and CCS.

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
Avianca
Posts: 5283
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:23 am

the problem of the lhr-ccs-bog route were the operational costs, and that just for 3 weekly flights with B767 and than B777. But on the other side the load were not that bad, also the cargodemand was high.

AF is doing so good on the route due the great conections that they have from cdg to asia, europe, north africa and middle east.

IB mainly on O/D traffic and also very good conections to european citys.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3664
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:55 am

Efromovich wants more AV routes. Dont be surprised to see AV in LON soon...but dont hold your breath. Also, AV´s old colors were deep red, not orange....
 
Summa767
Posts: 1778
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:58 pm

Whilst I have to agree with AV757's reasons against the BOG-LON route for Avianca, I think that the prospects for opening this route again should be looked at from a different perspective.
I mean, not so much from the point of view of a Colombian citizen wishing to travel from Colombia to Europe via London, but from Colombian residents in the United Kingdom, and other Latin Americans living in the United Kingdom, as well as Europeans wishing to travel to South America for business or pleasure. And that is not an insignificant market.
Importantly, there are other reasons that should be considered:

-Strength of European currencies against the dollar. Since AV's expenses mainly are in dollars, to sell tickets in Sterling and Euros will be beneficial to the company. It also increases its competitiveness against European carriers.
I have to agree that this could be a short term effect, but one that should be taken advantage of.

-The withdrawal of BA from the CCS/BOG route make it a wholly different ball game than when AV suspended the route a few years ago.

-Increasing security in Colombia mean that more people are traveling to Colombia. a 13% increase last year over the one before.

-Improving Colombian economy mean that more people are traveling generally than was the case a few years ago. Both for business and for leisure.

-Difficulty in obtaining student American visas mean that many Colombians are traveling to the UK to study. Many for English as a foreign language.

-Important cargo demand.

I understand that the market researchers are currently doing their job in evaluating the potential for this route. We should hear sooner rather than later what they come up with.

Kind regards,
Juan
 
Avianca
Posts: 5283
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: WHY BA Left Caracas And Bogota?

Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 33):
AV´s old colors were deep red, not orange....

depending what old colors, years ago (not the last red one) the color was deep orange!
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia

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