njdevilsin03
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It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:30 pm

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...997.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

The Federal Aviation Administration has limited the number of planes allowed to land each hour at Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport and may expand the use of two secondary runways because of concern about increasing travel delays.

In January and February, almost a third of the 12,000 commercial flights into Fort Lauderdale arrived late. Among the nation's 33 busiest airports, only Atlanta, Boston, Newark, Chicago's O'Hare and New York's LaGuardia posted worse on-time performance records during those months.

To meet the demand, FAA officials have told the airport that they want to remove longtime flight restrictions so small jets can use the south runway and both commercial airliners and private jets can use the crosswind runway. Only propeller planes currently use the south runway, and the crosswind strip is open only during emergencies.
717, 727, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 753, 762, 763, 777, DC9, MD80, DC10, L1011, ERJ, CRJ, ATR, DH8, A300,
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:49 pm

Thats a bummer, FLL is one of my favorite airports to shoot over to.
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hawk44
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:13 pm

Quoting Njdevilsin03 (Thread starter):
To meet the demand, FAA officials have told the airport that they want to remove longtime flight restrictions so small jets can use the south runway and both commercial airliners and private jets can use the crosswind runway. Only propeller planes currently use the south runway, and the crosswind strip is open only during emergencies.

Not sure if this is a good thing or not  boggled 

Hawk44
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padcrasher
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:15 pm

The only answer is to ban any aircraft with less than 170 seats..Just tell the no, you cannot land here with these puny aircraft, go somewhere else. Song employees will monitor this ban for the FAA free of charge..JMHO.
 
MAH4546
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:34 pm

One of the main reasons why jetBlue is coming to MIA in less than nine months...
a.
 
hawk44
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:49 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
One of the main reasons why jetBlue is coming to MIA in less than nine months...

Not doubting you or nothing as your usually correct about 95% of the time, but have you gotten conformation on this? The few people I know over at B6 have not heard anything internally.


Hawk44
Never under estimate the power of US
 
MAH4546
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:59 pm

Quoting Hawk44 (Reply 5):

Not doubting you or nothing as your usually correct about 95% of the time, but have you gotten conformation on this? The few people I know over at B6 have not heard anything internally.

Nothing is ever confirmed until it is made public, but MIA and jetBlue have been talking. jetBlue's tentative plans for MIA are to start with at least ten daily flights to at least three cities - most likely JFK, BOS, and LGB. They are also tossing around starting flights to about half a dozen other cities, including San Diego and DC, and possibly EMB service to smaller markets. The target date is January 2006. I would guess they may land sooner...late October 2005.

The fact is that jetBlue would perfer to create their South Florida focus city out of FLL, but can't due to FLL's congestion and space limitations. MIA is not congested at all, and has plenty of space to offer jetBlue.
a.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:06 pm

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 3):
The only answer is to ban any aircraft with less than 170 seats..Just tell the no, you cannot land here with these puny aircraft, go somewhere else. Song employees will monitor this ban for the FAA free of charge..JMHO.

THAT'S an awfully arbitrary number...basically, what you are saying is that nothing smaller than a 757 should be allowed into FLL (Spirit's 321's have more than 170 seats, however, US Airways' 321's have 169)...in my opinion, how about putting that baseline at, say, 100 seats...(to be honest, with the High-Density restrictions being put in place in Fort Lauderdale, I can't really see jetBlue operating many E190's into Fort Lauderdale)
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miamix707
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:55 pm

I thought reply 3 was made by a 10 year old but oops it wasn't. Sorry, not trying to offend anyone.

What's the problem with using runway 13/31? After the repaving was completed one day I was there and for a space of about 2 hours arrivals were using both 9L and 13. Even saw some 757s that landed on 13. So why can't, for example aircraft that are lightly loaded whatever size don't just use 13?
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:57 pm

They don't need to exapnd the use of 09R/27L, they have to expand the whole runway! Ok, the neighbors will b!tch about it, but NIMBYs always do that. It is not as if ERJs or CRJs are noise monsters. The ERJ could easily use 09R/27L already (at least lenght-wise) because they have the necessary take-off performance. Same can of course be said for all GA and prop traffic. Opening the south runway and allow for parallel operations, which could very well reduce delays, without issuing a flight number limit.
Also, I don't see a big problem with using the crosswind runway, there are other airports around the world where it is also done.
Allowing only planes with a minimum seat number would effectively kill a lot of the routes out of FLL. Delta for example would have to give up essentially all DCI routes, except maybe RDU, and the same goes for US. That would only be a major advantage for AA at MIA, with their proposed Eagle buildup.
 
JBLUA320
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:23 pm

Don't mind padcrasher... he's just trying to get song the competitive edge over jetBlue wherever possible-- here's an idea, padcrasher: give up.

On that note, I do think jetBlue will shift some ops to MIA... it makes sense, as they get a great deal of traffic from there.

JBLU
 
miamix707
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:00 pm

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 10):
Don't mind padcrasher... he's just trying to get song the competitive edge over jetBlue wherever possible-- here's an idea, padcrasher: give up.

lol he is a she

Thats why I think women belong in the kitchen


FLL needs to expand that south runway, However on one side there's I-95, on the other there's the railroad so.. while they do that, give some use to that runway 13.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:05 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 11):
Thats why I think women belong in the kitchen

What's this? Little House on the Praire? Are we in the wild wild west or something? Surely this isn't 21st century way of thinking? If that is truely your thinking, then someone belong back on the wagon trail with the natives chasing/scalping him/her... in the middle of a shootout in front of the saloon.. Yippie Kai-ah..
Aiming High and going far..
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:26 pm

Quoting Njdevilsin03 (Thread starter):
Only propeller planes currently use the south runway

Not true anymore. They removed that restriction recently (See A/FD). I even verified it with my own two eyes a few weeks ago when I witnessed a Citation and a Lear departing from it.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
PHLBOS
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:33 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 7):
Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 3):
The only answer is to ban any aircraft with less than 170 seats..Just tell the no, you cannot land here with these puny aircraft, go somewhere else. Song employees will monitor this ban for the FAA free of charge..JMHO.

THAT'S an awfully arbitrary number...basically, what you are saying is that nothing smaller than a 757 should be allowed into FLL (Spirit's 321's have more than 170 seats, however, US Airways' 321's have 169)...in my opinion, how about putting that baseline at, say, 100 seats...(to be honest, with the High-Density restrictions being put in place in Fort Lauderdale, I can't really see jetBlue operating many E190's into Fort Lauderdale)

Padcrasher, I have to agree with SHUPirate1 on this. Your 170 seat minimum would knock FL and WN out of FLL because they don't fly anything larger than a 737; to their credit they don't fly anything smaller than a 117-seat 717 (FL). It sounds like the culprit of the traffic problem is the 40-70 seat rjs; most if not all of them at FLL are operated by the legacy carriers. Any truth to that?

As with ORD a few months ago, the cause of the plane traffic surge at FLL could very well be due to these particular carriers using these rjs at a greater frequency than the other carriers that only use mainline planes.

[Edited 2005-04-07 14:44:57]
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stlgph
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:32 pm

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 3):
The only answer is to ban any aircraft with less than 170 seats..Just tell the no, you cannot land here with these puny aircraft, go somewhere else. Song employees will monitor this ban for the FAA free of charge..JMHO.

Utterly brilliant.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 11):
Thats why I think women belong in the kitchen

Even more brilliant. What time's your flight back to Brunei?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Thrust
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:39 pm

Padcrasher, I really like your idea too. I had no idea demand on these routes to FLL was this great. So the smallest aircraft at FLL could be a 757....is it possible the A380 could come to FLL? I'm just sayng, if demand is 170 passengers at least....I see FLL as being a great candidate for the A380...but I am only basing this on opinion. Can somebody support or argue against this idea just for my education?
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stlgph
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:52 pm

Quoting Thrust (Reply 16):
Can somebody support or argue against this idea just for my education?

Yes. Putting a seat restriction simply restricts business. Let's help all the airlines with their financial burdens even more.


I'm sure taking this idea to:

County Government
Airport Authority
Chamber of Commerce
Florida State Legislature
The local convention & visitors bureau
Tourism Councils
All the tourist-generated industry & business in the area (especially mini golf)
The airlines themselves


They'll give you all the rest you need to hear.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
MAH4546
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:02 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 14):
It sounds like the culprit of the traffic problem is the 40-70 seat rjs; most if not all of them at FLL are operated by the legacy carriers. Any truth to that?

There are very few RJ flights to FLL. It wasn't until two years ago that FLL even saw ten daily RJ flights. Delta Connection operates about 35 daily RJ flights thanks to a recently huge RJ build-up that added 12 destinations from FLL, US Airways Express operates four daily RJ flights, and Northwest Airlink has a seasonal extra daily flight to Memphis that is an RJ. That's it.
a.
 
slider
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:09 pm

No question FLL has a capacity issue. My understanding is also that the taxiways are limited in terms of bottlenecking and flow, particularly (and someone correct me please because I'm pulling this from memory) around the end of the terminal where CO/3M/B6 is.

There is a pinchpoint there that has impact on both 9l and 27R depending on volume. And the local FAA ATC wonks won't go to LAHSO operations either with 13/31.

There is capacity there, but the small plane issue is a thorny one. EAA, AOPA, etc are all advocates of keeping in open, but the proliferation of bizjets is a concern, esp when they don't have holding fuel for ATC issues like the larger Part 121 carriers.

FLL is just a mess right now.
 
stlgph
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:12 pm

MAH--

What about the props?
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ERJ170
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:13 pm

Will FLL become slot controlled?

Is there another airport between MIA and FLL that could become commercial ready?
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MAH4546
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:23 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 21):

Is there another airport between MIA and FLL that could become commercial ready?

OPF, but there is no point. MIA is more than capable of handling extra capacity. It is under capacity and one of the most uncongested major airports in the country.
a.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:31 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
It is under capacity and one of the most uncongested major airports in the country.

It's also close to being one of the most expensive, isn't it.. so finding another airport that doesn't charge half the fees that MIA does would be beneficial. Plus, finding an airport that isn't dominated by a single airline would also be helpful. So perhaps OPF will become the new BUR, ONT, LGB, SNA of S. Florida.
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stlgph
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:31 pm

MAH--

What about the props?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
MAH4546
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 23):
It's also close to being one of the most expensive, isn't it.. so finding another airport that doesn't charge half the fees that MIA does would be beneficial.

MIA, pending approval, will soon be offering a first year incentive program. Regardless of being expensive, it is one of the highest yielding airports in the US. Airlines are able to charge premium fares out of MIA that they can't out of FLL. The average fare is usually $30-$50 more. That more than makes up for the fact that MIA fees are $10 higher per passenger.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 23):
Plus, finding an airport that isn't dominated by a single airline would also be helpful. So perhaps OPF will become the new BUR, ONT, LGB, SNA of S. Florida.

OPF isn't becoming anything. It needs at least $250M in rennovations and a new passenger terminal.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 24):
What about the props?

Continental Connection has an extensive prop operation. There are a few commuter carriers too. Though prop planes aren't contributing to the congestion, they use seperate runways.
a.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 25):
MIA, pending approval, will soon be offering a first year incentive program.

What would be the likely turns of those programs.. will the airline be required to remain a certain amount of time?

How long until the MIA bonds or whatever are paid down and fees can start to be lowered? or will it remain at the levels it currently is?
Aiming High and going far..
 
UN_B732
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:46 pm

Why not just have the NIMBys let them build another runway? I mean geezz..Your fare rise, not mine!
-Mr. X
What now?
 
MAH4546
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:47 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 26):
What would be the likely turns of those programs.. will the airline be required to remain a certain amount of time?

Unlikely. They will simply get incentives for the first year of service, just like FLL does.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 26):
How long until the MIA bonds or whatever are paid down and fees can start to be lowered? or will it remain at the levels it currently is?

MIA fees aren't going to get lower. While the media loves to make a big deal about it, it is not that huge of a problem. Airlines simply pass the increased costs to the passengers. It doesn't cost the airlines more, it cost the passengers more. The average fares at MIA are higher, as a result.
a.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 23):
It's also close to being one of the most expensive, isn't it.. so finding another airport that doesn't charge half the fees that MIA does would be beneficial. Plus, finding an airport that isn't dominated by a single airline would also be helpful.

AA hub-dominance at MIA is one of the main reasons why LCCs deliberately chose FLL.

Worth noting, FL presently offers ATL-MIA service; if they can't add more non-stops to/from FLL, they could add some at MIA.

Edited to add:

From Thrust's earlier post:
So the smallest aircraft at FLL could be a 757....is it possible the A380 could come to FLL? I'm just sayng, if demand is 170 passengers at least....I see FLL as being a great candidate for the A380...but I am only basing this on opinion. Can somebody support or argue against this idea just for my education?

FLL, as with most airports in the U.S., is not FAA Design Group VI aircraft compliant; the A380 is a Group VI aircraft, the 747 is a Group V aircraft. The main issue with upgrading an airport to regularly handle a Group VI aircraft like the A380 is spacing between runways and taxiways to allow for sufficient aircraft wingtip clearance. Since FLL is in a fairly confined space (with I-95, I-595, US 1, Route 818 and a railroad surrounding the property); expanding the airport to that level of magnitude would be a very costly venue to undergo. Especially with the already high-NIMBY factor that may presently exist.

[Edited 2005-04-07 17:21:29]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
ATLgaUSA
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:21 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 19):
There is capacity there, but the small plane issue is a thorny one. EAA, AOPA, etc are all advocates of keeping in open, but the proliferation of bizjets is a concern, esp when they don't have holding fuel for ATC issues like the larger Part 121 carriers.

General Aviation aircraft in the U.S. are required to have 45 minutes extra fuel available for diversions/holding. Most business jets operate under NBAA standards which are even more stringent.

The problem with banning GA aircraft at FLL (which will never happen, it hasn't even happened at ATL yet) is that FLL has the only customs available to general aviation after 5:00 or 6:00pm. A lot of gen. av. flights coming out of the Bahamas don't make the closing time at FXE and thus have to use FLL.
 
slider
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting ATLgaUSA (Reply 30):
General Aviation aircraft in the U.S. are required to have 45 minutes extra fuel available for diversions/holding.

For IFR flight plans perhaps, but FLL has a boatload of GA prop and recreational A/C. ATC in turn gets them on the deck. Most SEL pilots fuel their planes up, go flying, do their thing, etc, etc. There's no planned concern for reserve fuel, hate to tell you. Astute pilots certainly won't push it, but there's no scientific approach either.

You're right about the Customs thing though- that may be one more reason why the Wayne Huizenga's of the world operate out of FLL and not FXE.
 
TedTAce
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:47 am

I would love it if FLL was forced to effectively close to commercial traffic, and make Broward create a whole new Airport from scratch, WSW of the 75/595 intersection, that would Pi** (upset) EVERYONE OFF, especially those people with the 2X4's in the wrong place in WESTON!! Too bad the environmentalists would rather see a version of the Asian solution to that problem (Offshore airport with land reclamation), but I can dream can't I?
This space intentionally left blank
 
USAFHummer
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @

Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 32):
Broward create a whole new Airport from scratch, WSW of the 75/595 intersection, that would Pi** (upset) EVERYONE OFF, especially those people with the 2X4's in the wrong place in WESTON!! T

I'd love it, as it would make my trips to South Florida a bit more convenient, as well as spotting visits, but theres no way that will ever happen, so keep dreaming...

Greg
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ScottB
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 25):
MIA, pending approval, will soon be offering a first year incentive program.

Short-term incentives are nice for airlines that don't plan much more than six months in advance, but the decision on whether to enter a market should be predicated on the long-term viability of the routes the airline chooses to operate. Incentives can help mitigate losses at weaker carriers from opening a station, but the service decision needs to be based on forecasts that go beyond the first year.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 25):
Airlines are able to charge premium fares out of MIA that they can't out of FLL. The average fare is usually $30-$50 more. That more than makes up for the fact that MIA fees are $10 higher per passenger.

Actually, $33 higher on average (domestic flights only) as of the 3rd quarter of last year. But you fail to mention that, as a result of MIA's higher fares, FLL had nearly two-and-one-half times as much domestic O&D traffic as MIA in the same period. Having LCC's go into MIA would deflate the fare premiums seen at the airport, and it's not necessarily clear that the LCC's would be able to make up for it by charging $10 more per passenger.

MIA is an unattractive facility for the LCC's due to its high operating costs, its often-shoddy and poorly designed facilities, and the presence of the AA hub. AA will defend its key domestic markets from MIA if necessary.
 
galapagapop
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:43 am

Now will this be the end of all B6 expansion at FLL, no, but this decision will likely push B6 to move new ops to MIA, but I feel thats the better decision overall, except one thing, AA, who as we know dominated MIA and has/were pursuing B6 not long ago, but moving there will bring the wrath of AA who has the advantage of nice modern 738/757's to compete with those modern B6 A320/E190's, ratehr than at LGA and for the most part JFK where Maad Dogs are used for most routes outside of the transcons.

Cheers!
 
MAH4546
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @

Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:38 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
But you fail to mention that, as a result of MIA's higher fares, FLL had nearly two-and-one-half times as much domestic O&D traffic as MIA in the same period.

It is pretty well known, I didn't see the need to mention it. The actual split, however, is 64.6% FLL/34.4% MIA, which is slightly less than two times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
Having LCC's go into MIA would deflate the fare premiums seen at the airport, and it's not necessarily clear that the LCC's would be able to make up for it by charging $10 more per passenger.

AA is already starting to match fares out of FLL on many flights. The real money on domestic operations from MIA, at least for AA, comes from connecting international passengers. jetBlue isn't going to start connecting JFK passengers to Bogota or Mexico City.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
MIA is an unattractive facility for the LCC's due to its high operating costs, its often-shoddy and poorly designed facilities, and the presence of the AA hub. AA will defend its key domestic markets from MIA if necessary.

MIA's facilities are no more unattractive than certain terminals at JFK, SEA, DTW, LGA, or even LGB, and the recently constructed facilities, such as Concourse H, are very nice and modern facilities. The aged facilties are Concourse's C, G, and F. Concourse C is gone in a few months. LCC's really don't care if facilities are very outdated (jetBlue at LGB is very good example), what they care is that they can turn the plane around fast...MIA is an uncongested airport in a major market. When all the construction is done in two years, it will have capacity for upwards of 65M annual passengers, a number it will not reach for at least 20-25 years.

We'll see how strong AA defends their market. I don't think AA has much to worry about. They make their money, as I mentioned, on LGA-MIA-BOG passengers or MSY-MIA-LHR passengers, not MIA-JFK passengers.
a.
 
ScottB
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 36):
The actual split, however, is 64.6% FLL/34.4% MIA, which is slightly less than two times.

As of 2004Q3, DOT reported 1.403 million domestic O&D passengers for MIA in all markets with >20 daily passengers. The comparable figure for FLL was 3.456 million, or roughly 2.42 times MIA's number. In a split where the numbers actually add up to 100%, it's 70.7% FLL/29.3% MIA.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 36):
AA is already starting to match fares out of FLL on many flights.

Really? So that's why the lowest fare AA offers between BOS and MIA is fully 50% higher than their lowest fare between BOS and FLL or PBI? Or why AA's lowest NYC-MIA fare is 60% higher than their lowest NYC-FLL fare?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 36):
MIA's facilities are no more unattractive than certain terminals at JFK, SEA, DTW, LGA, or even LGB

Both FLL and PBI offer better facilities than MIA at significantly lower cost, and those are the appropriate comparisons. The design of Concourse E is horrible, since the satellite has a separate checkpoint for that extra-special touch of inconvenience.

LGB was a special case for jetBlue in that they had an opportunity to dominate that particular market by taking all the available slots at once.

That said, MIA could be viewed as the expensive, less-congested alternative to FLL if Broward County doesn't get off its @$$ and fix the problem with the airfield.
 
MAH4546
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 37):

As of 2004Q3, DOT reported 1.403 million domestic O&D passengers for MIA in all markets with >20 daily passengers. The comparable figure for FLL was 3.456 million, or roughly 2.42 times MIA's number. In a split where the numbers actually add up to 100%, it's 70.7% FLL/29.3% MIA.

The data I was using came from last week's Miami Herald. I'm not doubting your numbers are right, I'm sure they are.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 37):
Really? So that's why the lowest fare AA offers between BOS and MIA is fully 50% higher than their lowest fare between BOS and FLL or PBI? Or why AA's lowest NYC-MIA fare is 60% higher than their lowest NYC-FLL fare?

Because the fare classes are sold out. AA has a $165 round-trip fare for MIA-BOS. That fare is sold out for all but two days in April.

AA's lowest MIA-LGA round-trip airfare is $158, matching jetBlue's lowest FLL-LGA fare. Again, that fare is sold out for all but two days in April. The lower fares at MIA are more limited in numbers than the FLL fares. Simple yield management.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 37):
Both FLL and PBI offer better facilities than MIA at significantly lower cost, and those are the appropriate comparisons.

FLL offers better facilities, but there is no room for anybody else to use them, the airport is delay prone, and congested.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 37):
The design of Concourse E is horrible, since the satellite has a separate checkpoint for that extra-special touch of inconvenience.

The only extra-special touch of inconvenience comes when you have to make a connecting flight. Otherwise, it is just like any other terminal at any other airport, and the security lines are bound to be shorter than at FLL.

AA no longer uses the high Concourse E gates, and, in fact, they would be perfect for jetBlue to set up shop. They could have the whole place to themselves (realisticly, though, those gates are international, and they wouldn't be wasted on jetBlue).
a.
 
ScottB
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:55 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
Because the fare classes are sold out. AA has a $165 round-trip fare for MIA-BOS. That fare is sold out for all but two days in April.

I'm not looking at what's available for booking, I'm looking at published fares. AA's current lowest published fare for MIA-BOS in SABRE is $178. Their current lowest published fare for FLL-BOS is $118.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
AA's lowest MIA-LGA round-trip airfare is $158

And their lowest published NYC-FLL round-trip airfare is $98.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):

FLL offers better facilities, but there is no room for anybody else to use them, the airport is delay prone, and congested.

The NIMBY's are, unfortunately, running the show in Broward.
 
lowecur
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:09 am

Fort Lauderdale Executive has a 6000' strip that is easily expandable to 9000. They have plenty of G4 & G5 operations, had private 727s use the field, and once kept Elvis' CV880 on the tarmac. This would be a perfect field for Jetblue's 190s and the other RJs. Temps could be set up for limited terminal operations as a fix. Residents in the past have voted down any runway expansion as they feared this possibility.

I attended the FAA open house at the Sheraton last month. They are looking at 2011 before the new South Runway is up and running. With the existing runway being closed for construction starting in 2008, FLL would be totally unmanagable for that 3 year period with continued traffic growth.

I'm afraid MIA and PBI will have to handle the overflow until the new runway is functional. Of course one or two of the majors going belly up would temporarily reduce capacity.
 
hawk44
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
The NIMBY's are, unfortunately, running the show in Broward.

What does NIMBY stand for?

Hawk44
Never under estimate the power of US
 
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ERJ170
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:50 am

N = Not
I = In
M = My
B = Back
Y = Yard
Aiming High and going far..
 
miaskies
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:50 am

The design of FLL is nice? last time I flew out of FLL on AA!! it was dump!
I hated it. Dirty terminal and claustrophobic ticketing area...all the ticket counters were so close to the door it was a mess.

Overall certain parts of MIA are not any better than some of the other terminals at major airports. For example, the AA terminal at SFO is dump. Very damp and 70's/80's feel to it. Nicest things in that terminal is the Mission Cafe and the chairs! that's it...

Now give MIA a few years when both of the new huge terminals are up and running and those big 380's of LH & AF start comin' in..and you will see why MIA is MIA and regardless whether or not Domestic travel goes to FLL, why the big boys in the INTL market come to MIA!

If you have not flown out of MIA lately...then see it for yourself, I gotta hand it to AA and One World, regarldess of the hussle and bustle that has gone around about the building of the New AA /One World terminal, it is coming out great!! Termina;/Con D of American and A Eagle is amazing...endless high ceilings, awesome architecture...I would even it compare it to the AF terminals at CDG!...w/out them collapsing of course...  Smile
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
behramjee
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:15 am

Airlines such as Jet Blue, Southwest, Air Tran and Spirit are the lifeblood of FLL Airport and they cannot afford to let go of these airlines just because one person here says anything less than 170 seats shouldnt be allowed to fly into FLL!!!

Hell...Southwest and Air Tran dont fly anything bigger than 140 seats and they are quite big at FLL especially Southwest...and Spirit's main hub is at FLL!!!
 
padcrasher
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:56 am

OK ok 170 is a little harsh. How bout 157 seats and above only?  Smile
 
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ERJ170
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:09 pm

I say make it 100 seats or more.. that will encompass everything from the E90 and up..
Aiming High and going far..
 
adrianw
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:28 pm

How many seats are in the A320's B6 uses?
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:39 pm

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 45):
How bout 157 seats and above only?

How about I can fly a damn 172 in and out of there whenever I feel like it!!!  banghead   biting   gnasher   hissyfit 
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: It's Offically Happened...FAA Limits Planes @ FLL

Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:11 pm

Adrianw-156...Padcrasher is just attempting to do anything to keep jetBlue out...next thing we know, she's going to propose an exemption for everything with 155 seats or less...

[Edited 2005-04-08 06:23:37]
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