Btblue
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Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:47 am

Times, April 10th.

BOEING is to strike back at Airbus with the launch in a few months of a new version of the venerable Boeing 747 called the 747 Advanced. British Airways may become one of the first customers.
Revelations of Boeing’s plans will intensify its commercial rivalry with Airbus, which is due to stage the first flight of its new $13.5 billion (£7.2 billion) A380 within weeks. It will supersede the 747 as the largest passenger airliner.

The Boeing move will also add fuel to the trade battle between Europe and America over subsidies to aircraft makers. A breakdown in talks last week between Peter Mandelson, the European trade commissioner, and Robert Zoellick, his US counterpart, means the issue may now have to be resolved by lengthy litigation through the World Trade Organisation.

Boeing has flirted with new versions of the 747 for more than a decade, but to date has failed to win interest from airlines, leaving the way clear for Airbus to develop the A380.

The advent of the A380 has killed off sales of 747 passenger aircraft, although Boeing is still working through a small backlog of orders and continues to sell 747 freighters. If Boeing fails to back the new plans, 747 production could end next year.

Senior sources at British Airways said the airline had held talks with Boeing about the new aircraft. Japan Airlines and Cathay Pacific, which like BA have not ordered the A380, have also been in negotiations over the 747 Advanced.

The aircraft would use new engines from Rolls-Royce and General Electric that were developed for another new Boeing product, the mid-sized 787.

The 747 Advanced would have greater range, modified wings and carry 30 more passengers — 450 rather than 420 — than the existing 747. The rival A380 will carry about 550.

The BA source indicated an announcement could be made at the Paris Air Show, the biennial showcase of the world’s aerospace industry that starts on June 13.

An announcement in Paris would be doubly galling for Airbus, as the event was intended to be a showcase for the A380, which was unveiled to the public in January by Tony Blair, France’s Jacques Chirac, Germany’s Gerhard Schröder and Spain’s José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero. Airbus executives told journalists that the A380 — which had been expected to fly at the Paris show — would probably be only on static display.

The A380 has yet to make its first flight — originally this was forecast for the end of April.

Boeing declined to comment, but a senior company source confirmed that it was “almost certain” to launch the 747 Advanced within “the next few months”. There was no current plan to make the announcement at the Paris Air Show.

“We see the aircraft as filling a gap between the 777 (Boeing’s next-smallest aircraft that carries up to 380 people) and the A380. There are airlines that would love a more efficient aircraft, but cannot justify all the seats of the A380, or the price,” the source said.

If Boeing decides not to go ahead with the 747 Advanced, it will probably mean the end of an aircraft that has dominated long-haul aviation for more than 30 years. With- out approval for the 747 Advanced, production of the aircraft would probably end at Boeing’s Seattle commercial aircraft plants some time next year.

Boeing started an in-depth review of its plans for the future of the 747 at the start of this year. An insider said the company had concluded that it could not leave Airbus to exploit a large part of the commercial aviation market unchallenged
146/2/3 737/2/3/4/5/7/8/9 A320 1/2/18/19/21 DC9/40/50 DC10/30 A300/6 A330/2/3 A340/3/6 A380 757/2/3 747/4 767/3/4 787 77
 
TACAA320
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:51 am

That sounds great. I loved the 747!
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
AC787
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:52 am

There's another thread exactly like this that was posted today... "Boeing Launching A Rival For The A380"

AC787
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting AC787 (Reply 2):
"Boeing Launching A Rival For The A380"

Except.... it isn't

The 747-Adv compete only nominaly. The -Adv might pose an alternative to the much larger A388, but it is not A388, plain and simple. This paragraph summerizes it perfectly:

“We see the aircraft as filling a gap between the 777 (Boeing’s next-smallest aircraft that carries up to 380 people) and the A380. There are airlines that would love a more efficient aircraft, but cannot justify all the seats of the A380, or the price,” the source said.

It doesn't rival the A388 any more than the CRJ-200 rivals the A320, the capacity gap is literally that large. It does; however, offer an alternative large airplane, so maybe Boeing can exploit that niche (for whatever it's worth)
 
behramjee
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:07 pm

I find it utterly senseless for Boeing to build the B 747 ADV with only 450 seats in a standard 3 class layout...it should be at least for 480-500 pax maximum. Even though the A 380 can seat 550 pax in a 3 class layout, many airlines are comprising that for less seats (EK 533-EY 490-QR 510-QF 530-SQ 530) in a 3 class layout and using the extra space of the double decker for extra amenities such as a lounge room with bar-mini casino-on board store-pool etc.

One must remember that when Boeing says 450 seats in 3 classes, their configuration is the standard one of the 1980s which was 62-42-32 seat pitch in F-J and Y classes respectively...therefore taking this consideration, BA will at the most fit in 400-410 pax in their 4 classes of service on this B 744 ADV as their F class is 79, J 60, Y+ 38 and WT 32!!!

VS can easily take away a sizeable chunk of BAs high yield traffic with the on board attractions they plan on installing in their A 380s when they arrive as the aircraft is large enough to accomodate all of Branson's creative ideas.
 
AirbusCanada
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:09 pm

Since when the 747 adv is a super jet?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:19 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
I find it utterly senseless for Boeing to build the B 747 ADV with only 450 seats in a standard 3 class layout...it should be at least for 480-500 pax maximum.

They tried a 747 stretch that large. No one wanted it

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
therefore taking this consideration, BA will at the most fit in 400-410 pax in their 4 classes of service on this B 744 ADV as their F class is 79, J 60, Y+ 38 and WT 32!!!

Still more than their current 744. The specific point of the 747-Adv is to fill a gap between the 773ER and the A388, growing the -Adv any larger defeats that point. Same logic as to why Embraer doesn't stretch the hell out of the E195: there's a damn good product to go against, and they obviously think they can exploit a market below the A388. More importantly, it makes an A387 nearly impossible (if it already isn't)

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
VS can easily take away a sizeable chunk of BAs high yield traffic with the on board attractions they plan on installing in their A 380s

Take a look at some of the features Boeing are marketing. Not so uncreative one might say.

One feature departs from the overhead crew-rest module and allows F passengers their own private cabin. Not only does this add comfort, it allows those massive, heavy lie-flat beds to be replaced by traditional F seats. Since you would be free to retire to your personal cabin, more seats can be installed without compromise.
 
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mariner
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:51 pm

Boeing has said there is not sufficient market for two super jumbos.

They have said that there is not sufficient market for one super-jumbo, which is why (supposedly) they went with the 7E7.

So what's this all about - sticking it to Airbus?

Because that's what it sounds like.

If there is not sufficient market, why build it?

cheers

mariner
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Lemurs
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:47 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
So what's this all about - sticking it to Airbus?

Because that's what it sounds like.

If there is not sufficient market, why build it?

Let's answer this question by reading and quoting the post that started this thread. (DfwRevolution pointed it out as well)

Quoting Btblue (Thread starter):
“We see the aircraft as filling a gap between the 777 (Boeing’s next-smallest aircraft that carries up to 380 people) and the A380. There are airlines that would love a more efficient aircraft, but cannot justify all the seats of the A380, or the price,” the source said.

In other words, the 747Adv isn't another super-jumbo. 30 more seats isn't very super.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
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mariner
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:56 pm

Lemurs:

Hang on - the thread title is:

"Boeing to Build New Super Jet to Challenge the A380."

You're saying that is not so?

cheers

mariner
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AirAmericaC46
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:01 pm

I'll say amen to the 747. It is far more symmetrical and photogenic than the A380!!
 
Lemurs
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:04 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
"Boeing to Build New Super Jet to Challenge the A380."

You're saying that is not so?

That's exactly what I am saying. I know what you mean, but really; headlines are written by journalists whose job it is to sell newspapers. Do you really think they understand (or more importantly, care) about the realities of the business of building and selling airliners? Of course not.

The second Boeing said it would offer a newer, slightly larger 747, the press was almost certain to treat it as a A380 competitor. In fact, I'm certain Boeing knew that and is quite happy with it. That doesn't change the reality of the airplane though. A and B, as well as the airlines they are courting, will all realize that these planes are offering a different kind of service and sweet spot.

An airline that isn't certain they can grow certain routes to accommodate the A380 profitably, but want more than a 773/346 will naturally settle on the 747Adv, assuming Boeing makes it attractive in the right fashion.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:13 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
I find it utterly senseless for Boeing to build the B 747 ADV with only 450 seats in a standard 3 class layout...it should be at least for 480-500 pax maximum.

Because after all, The A380 is such a stunning success. I mean, it even beat the 747s record of paying for itself twice over before the first plane took off!

(That's sarcasm for all you Americans).

One way or another, the market does not exist right now for two jumbos (I would argue that even one is pushing it). Boeing was smart enough to stay away from this concept in the mid to late 90s. I hope they will stick with that decision now.

On the other hand, If the A380 does become more popular, I think it's a fair bet that Boeing will have a much more robus 747ADV market then even Airbus's market for the A380. Carriers will want to move up, but the A380 is such a huge investment, the 747 will look very nice in comparison.
 
behramjee
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:52 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
They tried a 747 stretch that large. No one wanted it

Nobody wanted the stretch because it was based on current B 744 technical features and B 777 interiors...with BOEING now saying that the B 747ADV will see engine and technical benefits of the B 787 series, the fuel burn-range-more modern technology etc all make the B 747 ADV in this day and age a better option for the airlines who initially rejected the B 747 Stretch.

As for filling the gap between the B 773ER (365 seats in 3 classes) and A 380 (550 seats), the median is 455 seats and Boeing's aim is for a 3 class 450 seat layout but that too in Boeing's configuration. What Boeing should aim for is to build a plane that can accomodate 440-450 pax in BAs 4 class layout with the current seat dimensions-sizes-weight etc in order to effectively bridge the gap between the B 773ER and the B 744...otherwise the B 747ADV like Lemurs said will only have 30 more seats than the current BA B 744s have so whats the point of buying new aircraft just for 30 seats???!!!
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:57 pm

So is Boeing actually going forward with the 747Adv, or is this the same old story we've been hearing for the past 3 or 4 months?
 
lehpron
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:12 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
They tried a 747 stretch that large. No one wanted it

1) I do not think Boeing was sreious back then, they had not looked into what could be minimum airport modifications, the 746X was more like nearly 90 meters long.

2) The VLA market was way too early back then, of course nobody wanted it. With the rise of more frequent flight there was no justification for a VLA, in certain markets even now.

Thesedays on certian routes now and those forecasted by airlines, more people continue to fly and there is limited space available for frequent flights. For the time being A380 will shine for those carriers that purchase, as one fellow A.net member named her as, the Albatros (I like it). What happened in the 90's will happen again, people will want frequency over economy and it will not be from something like 787.

IMO, Boeing should cancel all 747 derivatives and concentrate all efforts on ANYTHING that can come out of experience with 787. I also think they should restart Sonic Cruiser within another 10 years, its market is there but has yet to mature, i.e. Boeing does not yet justify the R&D costs. IMO, SC would have completely killed A380.
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:30 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
If there is not sufficient market, why build it?

It looks like there is just enough market to justify it. Also, I firmly believe that the 747adv will mostly sell as a freighter. Since the A380 lacks a nose (or tail) door, they left open a large chunk of the freighter market.

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 15):
Boeing should cancel all 747 derivatives and concentrate all efforts on ANYTHING that can come out of experience with 787.

If it wasn't for the freighter, I would agree. However, there is money to be made off of those cargo doors...  Smile And this market would require a 777-400, with "787" technology. The 787 is a little small to compete in the market this thread has been discussing.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 14):
So is Boeing actually going forward with the 747Adv

I've been disappointed with a 747NG for too long... I'll believe it when I see the official press release with launch customers.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 13):
What Boeing should aim for is to build a plane that can accomodate 440-450 pax in BAs 4 class layout

While I agree from the enthusiast viewpoint, Boeing should only go for the upgrade with a profitable business case. I'd like to see a larger plane like others, but I also know that the cheapest stretch keeps the 950,000 lbm MTOW. (Same gear, brakes, etc.) In my humble opinion, the best business case (least capital expenditure with good ROI) is a minimal cost upgrade with the 787 engines (with bleed), wing tip treatments, and as much stretch as they can get and keep an 8,000nm+ range with improved cargo load. Recall, the stretch as well as the computer room changes will give them more cargo volume; Boeing just needs to do the math to get to an "optimal" cargo weight vs. pax number increase.

Lightsaber
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DeltaWings
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:17 pm

While the 744 can take 660 pax in holiday configuration and the A388 can take 835, I think the 747Adv should be able to take a good 750 pax. Im shure with 750, BA would be able to put 450 pax in a 4.class config. That would be a good increas in pax, when you compare it to their currenr 744s.

Since the 747Adv will be a streched 744 (plus economical improvements of course), will it also have a streched upper deck with 2 doors on each side?


~DeltaWings
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Planesmart
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:32 pm

Lightsaber

'In my humble opinion, the best business case (least capital expenditure with good ROI) is a minimal cost upgrade with the 787 engines (with bleed), wing tip treatments, and as much stretch as they can get and keep an 8,000nm+ range with improved cargo load. Recall, the stretch as well as the computer room changes will give them more cargo volume; Boeing just needs to do the math to get to an "optimal" cargo weight vs. pax number increase.'

Minus the stretch, is Option 1, the preference of most 744 freight operators. Catch 22 for B is that the proposed changes could be retrofitted to the existing fleet.

Option 2 includes the stretch, plus cockpit upgrade, the preference of a few new-buy 744 passenger operators. Catch 22 here, is that if the 787 economics are as compelling as claimed, this is an interim model, with a short life, with few features / developments that would carryover to Option 3.

Option 3 is a replacement 747 utilising 787 technology and just about new everything.

Every airline that currently operates 744's has held talks with B regarding the 747ADV, and most i'm sure have said keep us informed of developments.

B is a conservative company. The 787 and 737 replacement projects are far more important than chasing, what is projected to be a small market through to 2023 (if you deduct current A38 sales) based on B's own projections. However, when two giants and egos come into play, commonsense may not necessarily prevail.
 
aa777jr
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:37 pm

Wow, this is awesome. I am glad to see the life of the 747 be extended that much more. Sounds like they've already got serious potential with rumored customers BA, CX, JL, SQ, and 5X. Just good old competition between two a/c companies.

Regards.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:21 pm

Wooohoooo, love the 747, would be great to see it live on. Long shot but wish that NZ go for the 744 advanced if it comes out.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:45 pm

"There's another thread exactly like this that was posted today... "Boeing Launching A Rival For The A380"

Ditto my comments from that thread; the press again blew it all out of proportion when rehashing the same old news we've been hearing for months. A new 747 variant would be nice but no true rival to the likes of the A388. But in the case of the proposed A380-700 shrink; perhaps it would be.
 
CM767
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 13):
whats the point of buying new aircraft just for 30 seats???!!!

In my opinion trying to match the A380 economics will be the most important feature of the 747 Advanced, passenger count will be second and probably helps achieve the first.
But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
 
viscount630
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:14 am

A (Yet another?) "modified" 747 is NOT a "New Super Jet". The "modifications" don't even seem that drastic. A rework on an increasingly old (over FORTY years old!) design. Nothing more.

You can only dig out the old blueprints and "tweak" them again a finite number of times. The 747 has run its natural course. Let it go. Boeing should concentrate on new developments of the 777 & 787 for it's long range/high capacity portfolio.
RIP Dan-Air. Where the Secret was SERVICE.
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 17):
Since the 747Adv will be a streched 744 (plus economical improvements of course), will it also have a streched upper deck with 2 doors on each side?

The upper deck of the passenger version will be stretched 3.5 meters. There will be one door on each side of the upper deck, just as with the B747-400. The freighter will not have a stretched upper deck and will not have any upper deck doors.
 
redflyer
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:45 am

I just read through this entire string and one thing no one has mentioned is the fact that current operators of the 744 are going to have to start considering replacing them as the oldest are now around 16 years old. I realize they could simply order new 744's since the production line is still open (for now), but they would be ordering the same aircraft with the same old technology.

Doesn't that simply give Boeing an opportunity to take advantage of this market segment (which Airbus doesn't have a product line for) by offering a much improved product (747-Adv) with better operating costs but with a lot of commonality for the airlines as well as low development costs for Boeing?
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UAMAYBACH1239
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:48 am

Boeings announcement is a confirmation of what a lot of us wondered .
One of the biggest questions was why no order commitment to AB by BA.
I dont think Boeing will do anything halfass. If they waited to this point I would assume they also have pretty firm asian commitments if they do go along with the plans. Even more so it will not be a stretched version of the 400, it will have the tech specs of the 787.
Its also a lot safer gamble than the A380, they could sell a number of these jets in asia which is where a bulk of the 787's are being sold, I think this is a very wise descision.  airplane   Cool
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a380900
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:24 am

There will never be a 747 adv. It is another stupid communication ploy by Boeing to withstand the image blow of the first flight of the A380.

These guys should spend more time building airplanes and less communicating.
 
a380900
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 14):
So is Boeing actually going forward with the 747Adv, or is this the same old story we've been hearing for the past 3 or 4 months?

It is the same old story dude (read the article, it is quite explicit, no decision has been taken). The story is repackaged for the A380 first flight... This plane will never be built. I'm tired of those losers at Boeing...
 
Rj111
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:49 am

One of the biggest questions was why no order commitment to AB by BA.

BA have no need to order the A380/744adv, they have little avaliable money and their 744 fleet is very young.

it will have the tech specs of the 787.

It won't, it will be a minor upgrade and stretch, giving the 747 a makeover to match the 787 economics would incur huge costs. Boeing would be far better sarting from scratch if they wanted to produce a 747-E, and there is simply not a market to justify two expensive VLA models at the moment.
 
PVD757
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:36 am

A380900- easy with the venom. You're plane hasn't taken off yet. Let's wait and see who is really serious about plane development in the next 6 months. By the time the Pairs airshow comes around, we should know how successful the A380 design is and whether or not Boeing needs to build the newer 747. I think they are just posturing now until they know more about the A380 and what it can do. I ultimately think this design is more of an economic design rather than a capacity design. If this plane can save on gas, airlines will buy it.
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting A380900 (Reply 27):
There will never be a 747 adv. It is another stupid communication ploy by Boeing to withstand the image blow of the first flight of the A380.

What is your source? Or do you believe that just because you want to believe that? It seems to me there is a strong business case for Boeing to build the B747Adv.
 
Thrust
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:14 am

If the A380 is successful, Boeing may very well likely challenge the A380 with a new 747 version. Unlike the 747X projects, this 747 would not be as expensive. As for A380-900 saying the people at Boeing are losers....don't listen to him. The 787 has Airbus very alarmed...that is apparent. And Boeing easily could challenge the A380 if they wanted to with their own double decker plane, or an even bigger 747 should the market justify it. Boeing could've done a full double-decker in 1969 if they'd wanted to (that wouldn't have been a great idea, but....)
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
Lockheed1011
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:25 am

Well said THRUST!  Wink

2005 is Boieng's year.
Boeing will take over the Wide Body market again this year.

Airbus is doing very well with the A319 & A320. A318 is not selling well at all, A321 not like expected.
 
norcal
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:42 am

Quoting A380900 (Reply 28):
This plane will never be built. I'm tired of those losers at Boeing...

I'm tired of your idiotic posts, if you have a logical reason why the 747adv won't be built, then please share. The only purpose your posts serve is to ignite meaningless A vs. B wars. If you think Boeing is going away you are incredibly stupid.

Quoting A380900 (Reply 27):
It is another stupid communication ploy by Boeing to withstand the image blow of the first flight of the A380.

Who said Boeing is suffering an image blow? If Boeing wanted to they could build a triple decker 2000 passenger a/c. Boeing is just building what it thinks is the right a/c for the right market. Time will tell who is right, though I think that we will see A380/747s and 787/A350s supporting each other where hub and spoke systems exist and 777/344s and 787/350s where point to point exists.
 
lehpron
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:17 am

Quoting CM767 (Reply 22):
In my opinion trying to match the A380 economics will be the most important feature of the 747 Advanced, passenger count will be second and probably helps achieve the first.

If 747A matched A380 in every aspect yet A380 is still able to acrry much more while 747A has reahed her limit, tell me who will come out on top when cpacity becomes as issue? IMO, 747A needes to supercede A380 to be better perfomance wise, scaled economics as if they could carry the same capacity.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 31):
It seems to me there is a strong business case for Boeing to build the B747Adv.

Of course there is A380, until its market full blooms, had created a niche such that some airlines see an immeidate need to something like that. My deal with 747A begins when capacity requires more 747A's to become consolidated for A380's. If Boeing is able to match economics with A380 then carriers will save by tossing the 747A's aside. NOTE: this forecasted opinion is only valid for certain carriers on certain routes, I will not entertain the idea that this will happen everywhere or everywhen. 747A, unlike A380, may be able to fill now, which will give a few ignorant/arrogant souls here the impression that A380 has failed if it doesn't fill immediately.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 34):
Who said Boeing is suffering an image blow?

Well you tell me, the United State of America through Boeing's commercial airplane empire has lead the world for so long and now another company in another country and continent has produced something bigger than anything we've done in the same market! The ONLY reason Boeing's burped out the Sonic Cruiser from a side project to PR posterchild was because they were overshadowed by Airbus' push for the A3XX, which Boeing at the time could not push the 745x, 746x and 747stretch aircraft. Airbus simply has more faith in the VLA market than Boeing and A380 is an ego-slam.

Boeing insisted there was no market for A380, ironically A380 created a niche market by being big & early for some airlines like BA (they could have made the A387 first and solved that problem...  Yeah sure )
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:25 am

Boeing will get their act together one of these days and confirm a updated 747.....
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:59 am

Quoting A380900 (Reply 27):
There will never be a 747 adv. It is another stupid communication ploy by Boeing to withstand the image blow of the first flight of the A380.

These guys should spend more time building airplanes and less communicating.



Quoting A380900 (Reply 28):
It is the same old story dude (read the article, it is quite explicit, no decision has been taken). The story is repackaged for the A380 first flight... This plane will never be built. I'm tired of those losers at Boeing...

You just gotta love the a.net forums sometimes..

Dude here is a tip for next time: Think before you post. However those geeky comments are not surprising from someone with a username such as A380900!  crazy  rotfl 
 
YYZ4RADD
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:32 am

RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:42 am

there is a saying....

If you can't beat em, join em.....somebody at Boeing is thinking this way...LOL

The 747Adv will do fine...and fill a niche market of its own...it will end up hurting the A345 / A346 more than the A380.....think about it...there is no plane at the moment between the A380 and the A346...and along comes the 747Adv and will fit in that gap nicely....I am sure Boeing must be aiming at that market as well...

Regards

YYZ4RADD
 
Propulsion
Posts: 282
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A38

Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:17 pm

I don't think the debate as to whether the 747Adv is built has much to do with how wonderful people think some aircraft are over others. The point is nothing to do with weighing up how good the A380 is or how bad any other plane is.  no  old 

All that it depends on is whether Boeing feel that it can economically produce a product that will both sell sufficient numbers and satisfy the requirements of airlines like BA and CX who feel that an aircraft bigger than a 777-300/A340-600 but smaller than an A380 will fulfil their fleet plans better.  yes  checkmark 

The problem is how to give the 747Adv its competitive edge beyond solely seating 50-100 fewer than an A380 and most importantly, WITHOUT becoming or being perceived as a stopgap plane that will be rendered obsolete barely a few years after entry into service due to technological advancement, market conditions or any other external factor (including the pursuit of A380's).  point  biggrin 

I think many of us would love to see another 747 variant so that the line doesn't close, but whether this will be a wise move by Boeing is largely estimation of interpreting future market trends, which is an inexact science that unfortunately results in gambles worth billions of dollars at huge risk to the company. Fingers-crossed, hope the 747Adv will be built and be a successful model.  crossfingers  pray 

Propulsion  thumbsup   veryhappy 
A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
 
norcal
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A

Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:48 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 35):
Boeing insisted there was no market for A380

Yes they definitely did, but they still can't let Airbus have the market entirely to themselves especially when a economic competitor can be developed. The 747adv is a short term solution to the problem, but it is a response and a response is better than no response. They can still compete with Airbus and in the meantime develop a true competitor for the A380 if the market matures for that size a/c in 15-20 yrs. If it doesn't, then they haven't risked as much as Airbus has. (Expect the 737 replacement before any VLA.)

Airbus scoffed at 787 when Boeing first introduced it, but look now, they are throwing the A350 into the mix. Just like Boeing couldn't utterly surrender the VLA market to Airbus, they won't surrender the 787 market to Boeing. The A350 is a temporary (10 years, maybe more) fix to steal some of Boeing's sales while in the meantime developing a true competitor.

The fact of the matter is that neither company can develop two new a/c at the same time. The A350 and 747adv offer both companies a temporary solution instead of surrendering the market to the otherside.

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 35):
they could have made the A387 first and solved that problem

The A380 isn't made to be shrunk, it could, but it is intended to grow much larger. If you shrink it, then it would become far too heavy to make it economical. Airbus designed it to grow, just look at the wings. Maybe a re-winged A380-700 would work, but at its current size it would be far too heavy.
 
vunz
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:18 pm

Why don't they simply call it the 747-500?
 
Ken777
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:59 am

Right now Airbus owns the 380 size slot and Boeing owns the 747 size slot. For either company to capture the other's market they would have to start with a clean sheet of paper and both companies have other, more important, priorities. It probably won't happen in my lifetime - but then I'm 60.

As long as airlines are efficient in matching the size of the plane to the markets in their routes then both the 747 and 380 will be viable, just like an airline assigning a 767 or 777 to a specific route. The 747ADV will sell because the airlines understand that Boeing will not move the 747 fully to "E" technologies for a long time. The 737 will be the next plane converted (797?) and I'm assuming that Boeing already has engineers working on that one - just waiting for the 787 to fly and WN to place a nice order.

The Sonic Cruiser, by the way, was not a burp. It was conceived and highly desired by the airlines at a time when the dot com boom was going wild and airlines felt the business pax would pay the 15% or so premium to fly it. A few bumps, like the dot com bust, 9/11 and SARS changed the airline industry and the Sonic Cruiser lost it's viability rather fast.

Boeing was lucky with the timing of the Sonic Cruiser in two ways. The first is that the program was cancelled before a majority of the development expense was incurred. The second is that Boeing was able to take advantage of the technology they did develop in the 787 program.

The challenge for Airbus is two fold. First he airlines will have to fill the seats. While this is assumed by a lot of people I don't believe it will be that easy on a day to day, high season to low season basis. I've been on more than a few 747s (like QFs LAX to SYD) where there were plenty of empty seats in the cattle car section and a lot of pax were able to lay down over several seats to sleep. Airlines like QF may well end up switching between the 380 and 744 on routes like this, based on the number of seats sold.

The other challenge is that the airline industry does not encounter major bumps (like a cot com bust or another 9/11) that dramatically cuts pax traffic for an extended period of time. The 380 is the most exposed plane in this type of situation, with the 747 in second place. This is where the development cost of the 747 ADV provides Boeing with an advantage.
 
RIX
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RE: Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380

Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting Viscount630 (Reply 23):
A (Yet another?) "modified" 747 is NOT a "New Super Jet".

- don't be that hurt by what journalists say.

Quoting Viscount630 (Reply 23):
The "modifications" don't even seem that drastic

- they still are modifications, without quotes.

Quoting Viscount630 (Reply 23):
A rework on an increasingly old (over FORTY years old!) design. Nothing more.

- worked pretty well for 737.

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