7e72004
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How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:40 am

Taking into account PHL as it exists right now, how much more can the airport handle in terms of flights, etc.? Were they going to build another runway to help alleviate the problem? Is it possible for them to build a parallel runway far enough away from the curren one for parellel landings? The last time i was at PHL there seemed to be some land to the west of the terminal across the highway but that was 3 years ago. Any thoughts/info.? thanks.  Big grin
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:43 am

as i understand it, PHL is nowhere near capacity. consider the fact that it is a nice-sized airport in the country's fourth largest city, yet it is not in the top 30 busiest airports in the country.

with the new international terminal up and running, i think PHL is well sized for what it is used for (not too many airports you can say that about these days!)
 
USAFHummer
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:53 am

PHL's room for physical expansion is severely limited by geographic constraints with I-95 to the north, shipyards to the east, and Delaware River to the south, which effectively have hemmed in the airport to its current area...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
usairways85
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:04 am

In regards to terminal space, PHL is not near capacity. However, where the problem comes in is runways and taxiways. PHL often faces delays due to the FAA and once flts become backed up at PHL there isn't very many places for them to go. Thus causing gateholds and further delays just in taxing.

As for the third runway. The likely option will be to build a 3rd runway partly out in the Delaware to allow for parallel landings/takeoffs. However this runway is at least 10 years from being built.
 
727LOVER
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:27 am

Any chance Philadelphia will take the Denver solution?
Love Trumps Hate
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 4):
Any chance Philadelphia will take the Denver solution?

there was talk many years ago of building a second airport in jersey, but the land restrictions in philly and its surrounding cities, most of which are 400 years old and incredibly dense, are much different compared to the land use issues outside of denver. it is inconceivable that the denver solution would ever happen in southeastern PA, jersey, or deleware.

i think that PHL, by most standards, is an airport that is logically sized for the market it serves. could it be more efficient with another runway? probably. but i could name 25 airports that need expansion more than PHL does right now.

PHL is not a major hub. it is a fine second-tier airport that is doing about what it is expected to do.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 5):
PHL is not a major hub.

Tell that to US Airways.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
BigOrange
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:12 am

Why don't they just move PHL to ILG???
 
7e72004
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:12 am

I know that this has been discussed before but what about PNE? Would that be a viable alternative as a "2nd" airport?
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
SESGDL
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 5):
PHL is not a major hub. it is a fine second-tier airport that is doing about what it is expected to do.

PHL is a major hub, it's the second largest hub for US Airways. What are you thinking? US and US Express have over 450 daily flights from PHL to destinations all over.

Jeremy
 
supa7E7
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:40 am

PHL has around 30 million annual pax. Second tier perhaps, but then so are NRT, HKG....


"The 28.5 million passengers [in 2004] will likely move PHL into a virtual tie with Seattle/Tacoma as the 16th busiest U.S. airport in terms of passenger traffic. The latest airline schedules show PHL with 665 scheduled daily departures to more than 130 domestic and international destinations.

Complementing the new heights reached in passenger traffic and plane movements is the all-time best 604,683 tons of freight moved in 2004, which eclipsed the previous mark of 570,838 tons set in 2002."

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050223/235462_1.html
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 6):
PHL is not a major hub.

Tell that to US Airways.

sorry to insult US -- you're right, PHL is a major hub for US. what i really meant to say is that it is not a top tier hub, like ORD, DFW, IAD, JFK etc. it's not even a hub that gets as much traffic as CVG!

it's the 30th busiest airport in the US (or something like that) -- it's hard to argue that it's a top tier hub.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 10):
"The 28.5 million passengers [in 2004] will likely move PHL into a virtual tie with Seattle/Tacoma as the 16th busiest U.S. airport in terms of passenger traffic. The latest airline schedules show PHL with 665 scheduled daily departures to more than 130 domestic and international destinations.

wow, if that's right, i apologize. i just read in the washington post a few days ago the top 50 airports in terms of passengers and i could have sworn i saw PHL in the 30th slot.
 
PHLB707320B
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:45 am

While PHL ranks 16th in terms of passengers, there was a ranking referenced on this site a number of months ago, which ranked PHL 11th in terms of aircraft movements. While the airport may not be at capacity, it's primary runway utilization (27R for arrivals and 27L for departures) often compromises efficiency, leading to delays. The high volume airspace above also poses constrants. My experience for departures at a hub such as DFW, seems that things happen much more quickly. As one aircraft begins it's take-off roll, the aircraft holding behind it immediately makes it's way into position and is ready to go. Here at PHL, you often play the sitting, going nowhere game.....the aircraft on the active departs and all other aircraft just sit and wait. When the next in line moves onto the runway and leaves and all the rest just sit and wait. At any rate, anyone in viewing PHL's future development plans can find it at www.phl.org. There are two versions, one basically keeping the current runway configuration and adding a 3rd east/west runway. The second is a complete overhaul building 4 Northeast/Southwest runways, two on either side of the terminal complex.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:03 am

As mentioned, PHL is constrained by its airfield capacity, not the terminal & concourse infrastructure. A lot of improvements have been made to the terminal & gate areas over the past few years, especially the new international terminal and regional concourse. PHL sees an awful lot of RJ's and props thanks to USAirways, hence why PHL is high in movements, but lower in passenger numbers. The prop traffic is actually not a problem as they can generally use 8-26 which is pretty much exclusive to prop traffic, but too short for RJ's.

DEN is arguably the only city in the country that could pull off what they did.....that is go and build a brand new airport at a greenfield site. No other city has as much open land that close to the city center. Certainly almost no on on the East Coast. Even ORD and the whole Peotone issue, its a lot farther away from the city center than DEN is now currently. With PHL you would have to go almost all the way up to the Lehigh Valley or out past Coatesville to even thing about doing something like that, and even then there is a lot of terrain and development issues. Then it is nowhere close to being convienient for most of the metro area.

Going forward, the airfield will need to be reconfigured to expand runway capacity. That will be a huge undertaking, but it will be necessary to fix the delay problems that arrise whenever there are weather issues. PHL can jam up on overcast days, which most other major airports can handle just fine. Also reliever airports will play an important role in air service in Southeastern PA/Northern Delaware/Western New Jersey.....specifically ILG, LNS, RDG, AVP, and TTN.

In the future PHL will have to
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:21 am

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 8):
I know that this has been discussed before but what about PNE? Would that be a viable alternative as a "2nd" airport?

as a person who grew up in the northeast, my guess is that PNE is even more landlocked and limited to growth than PHL. believe it or not, the area near the airport might be more "rural" (if you can call it that) than the areas around PNE.
 
MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
The prop traffic is actually not a problem as they can generally use 8-26 which is pretty much exclusive to prop traffic, but too short for RJ's.

Partially correct, there. RJs have used 26 for landings at least.. An E170 landed on it a couple days ago.

I guess I should mention that I saw Miami Air also land a 738 on it..

[Edited 2005-04-14 05:00:10]
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
usairways85
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:51 am

PNE doesn't have the facilities to handle much commercial traffic. Is there even much of a Terminal there. I know they have several hangars holding private planes. I've driven past it many times but have never really seen an actual terminal. Anyway it is also a hassle to get there if you are not from the immediate area. Stuck between rt. 1 (Roosevelt Blvd.) and 95. There are many traffic lights on the roads leading to the airport.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 8):
I know that this has been discussed before but what about PNE? Would that be a viable alternative as a "2nd" airport?

Also NIMBY central...seeing as PNE is right in the middle of densely populated Northeast Philadelphia...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
cha747
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:27 pm

My question is, how come the Philadelphia Naval Yard cannot be turned into a set of runways with a taxiway and (complete with a bridge to cross the Delaware River tributaries) that connects it to the main airfield? IIRC, the base is just sitting there and rotting. Or else, demolish the whole naval yard, have a separate set of runways and terminal, and have the two separate airfields that sit only a mile apart linked by high speed rail. Nahh...that's just too easy and makes too much sense.

As far as the Denver-type of solution, there are acres and acres of farmland in South Jersey that could be organized into enough space to accommodate a world-class international airport. Remember, Central Airport in Camden, NJ was the Philadelphia metropolitan area's major airport throughout the 1930's, but when all its tenants moved across the river to the longer runways at the current PHL, it was doomed. Currently, PHL is accessible by rail service to the city. Center City Philadelphia is only 8 miles away and downtown Wilmington, Delaware is only 25 miles away. With I-95 and I-476 offering such convenient highway access to the current PHL, I doubt that it's going anywhere anytime soon.
You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
 
usairways85
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:46 pm

Alright first, the Naval yard is not just sitting abandoned. Kaverner builds ships on old dry docks there. They currently have a crane used for the shipbuilding that would be in the way of the landing pattern if they extended the most recently built runway. The naval yard is also home to the Philly cruise ship terminal that has seen an increasingly number of trips over the past few years. Also there are long term plans to develope the old base into a downtown type setting where they might include places to gamble.

As far as South Jersey being farmland, yes i agree however as the years go on you have to travel further and further into Jersey to find wide open areas. The parts of Burlington, Camden, and Gloucster Counties that border the Delaware have been developed greatly in the past 5-10 years. It would be too far of a commute for people in the surrounding PA counties to travel into South Jersey to get a flt.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting Cha747 (Reply 18):

As far as the Denver-type of solution, there are acres and acres of farmland in South Jersey that could be organized into enough space to accommodate a world-class international airport.

PHL's current location is almost perfect... if moved into South Jersey then us PA suburbanites would scream bloody murder, and vice versa, and if they moved it west into, say, Chester County (just for argument's sake, I know that won't happen), then the South Jerseyites would be irritated...its location is just perfect currently...
Greg
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crownvic
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:19 pm

PHL has very high O&D and is far from a 2nd tier airport. If one has never been to the NE, they just do not understand what airports like DCA, PHL, EWR and DCA face. I can tell you this, if PHL had the space, based on population, O&D, location,etc. it would easily match ATL, ORD or DFW, if it were "blessed" with 4-10 full size runways. I would love to see these airports perform the same way these NE facilities manage. Although PHL has 3 parallel's and one crossing runway, it's practically impossible to utilize them all at once because of their close proximity to each other.
 
flyboy7974
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:28 pm

what is the intersecting runway, i believe, 17-35, wasnt there talk about extending that? i know that southwest uses that runway for landings, as i saw it when i was there mid january. what is the length of 17-35
 
USAFHummer
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:41 pm

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 22):
what is the intersecting runway, i believe, 17-35, wasnt there talk about extending that?

Yes, it will be extended another 1,000 feet or so in the coming years...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
cha747
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:43 pm

Hey Greg,

I completely agree with you; I was commenting that there IS space nearby. Heck, I live in Center City and most people who aren't from around here are surprised that I can make it from the gate back home in under 30 minutes; once I was home watching TV on my couch before the darn AF flight was supposed to even have landed! I don't think that the NIMBY's out in Medford would ever allow such a creatiion but it is theoretically possible.

USairways85...I know of the Kvaerner Crane and I've seen the cruise ships...but if you go to Google maps and find PHL and then click on the satellite button on the right, you'll see how it would have been such a nice natural extension to the airport to have another runway. It's good that Kvaerner brought these jobs to the area and were able to use the dry docks, but the fact remains that an exhorbitant amount of space is being wasted there with all of the mothballed ships and the old base housing.
You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:39 pm

you can view the proposed master plan here:

http://www.phl.org/master_plan.html

notice how they want to lengthen every runway, and build at least one more very long runway. i wonder why?

also, take a look at the idea of changing the orientation of all the runways -- the diagonal plan. how the heck would that work? wouldn't they have to shut down the airport for a long time? and doesn't that plan negate the noise advantage of having planes take off essentially over the deleware?
 
PHLBOS
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:30 pm

First and foremost.

When the 2 Airport Master Plans were unveiled last year; nearly everybody from the wealthier Delaware County townships and boroughs (Swarthmore, Springfield, Nether Providence, & Upper Providence) went absolutely biserk when they saw the diagonal runway layout because, to them, it would mean increased noise over their homes. Keep in mind that many of the residents residing in above-mentioned municipalities gave PennDOT a real hard time over the construction of I-476 (the Blue Route); that's why PennDOT foolishly scaled down the interchanges & dropped the number of lanes along the newer southern section, plus had sound walls erected all over the place.

The extension of Runway 17-35 (which is scheduled to be completed by 2007) is first part of the other overall master plan which involves building a 3rd parallel runway and relocating UPS and Hog Island Road (yet again). As expected, there's already people (from South Jersey to the Main Line area (PA)) raising a stink about this extension with regards to added noise. Lower Merion Township residents and officials are using the tragic mid-air collision that killed U.S. Senator John Heinz back in 1991 as another reason for opposing the runway extension. On the South Jersey end, U.S. Rep. Robert Andrews (D-NJ) has gone on record as being opposed to the 17-35 extension. I'm guessing that he's basing his stance because he has received only negative feedback from his constituents. Any runway/airport supporters living in South Jersey (especially those in Andrews' district) may want to call or e-mail him to voice your support of the 17-35 extension project.

Any plans to extend 8-26 eastward (studies were done shortly before it opened) were halted when Kvaerner erected the Goliath Crane which just happens to be located right along the projected centerline of 8-26.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
USAFHummer
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:37 pm

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 25):
also, take a look at the idea of changing the orientation of all the runways -- the diagonal plan. how the heck would that work? wouldn't they have to shut down the airport for a long time?

Probably...the diagonal plan calls for essentially the demolition of much of the current terminal complex as well, and that would throw PHL travelers into fits...the parallel alternative, or parts of it, seems to be the more likely option at this point...step 1 is already being done, in that 17/35 is getting the long-awaited extension...step 2 , the extension of 8/26, is currently not possible because the Kvaerner Crane would interfere with the glideslope of any 8/26 extenion to the east...building that third parallel runway to the south is interesting, as the diagram has it going right through UPS's massive facility at PHL, and Im sure UPS wouldn't be too thrilled to get kicked out of there for this...but someone or something will eventually have to make some sacrifices at PHL for significant expansion/improvement to happen...
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7e72004
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:28 am

That would go over well...the tearing down of the "newly" remodeled airport and brand new international terminal!
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:10 am

Actually 7E72004,

Terminal A (West & East) would be the only terminals spared demolition in the diagonal runway layout scheme. The other terminals would be replaced with a tier-like setup similar to ATL w/an APM connection.

Side note: IAD's long-range goal includes a similar tier-terminal APM setup.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
7e72004
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:56 am

So everything else including the "new" F terminal would be demolished? What a mess that would create!! Wouldn't it be cheaper to just build a new runway, etc.?
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 30):
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just build a new runway, etc.?

The third parallel runway option not only involves the relocation of UPS' facilities and Hog Island Road it also involves landfilling part of the Delaware River. The high cost in obtaining enviromental permits from the Army COE and the state DEP alone closes the gap (and possibly surpasses) between the 2 options.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Beckaru
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:47 pm

I've only been to PHL twice, but was surprised that it wasn't bigger (compared to PIT, which is in a smaller city). I was flying Delta, but didn't notice it being overcrowded at all. But, I don't think they have a lot of room to expand there. I did notice that US Airways has a lot of flights in and out of PHL (not as many as they do at PIT, but still a lot).
 
PHLBOS
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:52 pm

Quoting Beckaru (Reply 32):
I was flying Delta, but didn't notice it being overcrowded at all. But, I don't think they have a lot of room to expand there. I did notice that US Airways has a lot of flights in and out of PHL (not as many as they do at PIT, but still a lot).

DL operates out of Terminal E; the same terminal as NW, WN, & YX. US operates out of A-West (international flights), B, C, & F (Express operations). Your last sentence is way off the mark. US operates over 430 + or - flights a day out of PHL; which is still a hub for them. PIT not only has a smaller number of US flights but it recently underwent a downgrade from its hub status.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:10 pm

Quoting Beckaru (Reply 32):
I did notice that US Airways has a lot of flights in and out of PHL (not as many as they do at PIT, but still a lot).

i'm sure that PHLBOS has a better sense of this than i do, but as i understand it US is no longer operating a hub at PIT. from reports that i've read in the post-gazette, they have downgraded operations there to a "concentration" city, whatever that means, and PHL has increased capacity since this change.
 
usairways85
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:20 pm

According the April Schedule PHL has 500 daily flts and PIT only has 233 only 67 of which are mainline flts. So PHL currently has more than double the number of flts PIT has.
 
runway27right
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:58 pm

BTW, PHL is ranked the 18th busiest airport up from 20th in 2000.
Keeping PHL Spotting Alive Daily!
 
7e72004
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:25 pm

If US had to choose between PHL and CLT which would they choose in terms of having to get rid of another hub? PHL would be my choice for the main reason of their international gateway but then again CLT does not have WN...yet  Big grin
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting Cha747 (Reply 18):
My question is, how come the Philadelphia Naval Yard cannot be turned into a set of runways with a taxiway and (complete with a bridge to cross the Delaware River tributaries)



Quoting Cha747 (Reply 18):
, there are acres and acres of farmland in South Jersey that could be organized into enough space to accommodate a world-class international airport.

As already mentioned Kaverner has a huge ship building facitlity at the Navy Yard. The Navy still owns and operated the reserve basis where many ships are mothballed int he ready reserve fleet. And lastly, you can't build a bridge arcoss the lower Schuykill becasuse ship ply up and down it to the oil refineries in SW Philly.

AS for the Jersey, I live in NJ, and unless you want a 45 drive to the Pine Barrens there is no "Open space" in SNJ. We have inititives to buy up farmland in order to preserve it, precicely becasue the whole area is becoming to urban. If you have to drive that far then you might as wel fly out of ACY.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
runway27right
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RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:26 am

Airport arrivals in past 24 hrs. Based on this, I guess LAX is also a second tier Airport.

Corporate Aircraft Only (8852 landings/24hrs)
Pos. Arrivals Code Airport Name
1 264 TEB TETERBORO,TETERBORO,NJ
2 156 IAD WASHINGTON DULLES INTERNATIONAL,WASHINGTON,DC
3 128 LAS MC CARRAN INTL,LAS VEGAS,NV
4 112 MDW CHICAGO MIDWAY,CHICAGO,IL
5 102 DAL DALLAS LOVE FIELD,DALLAS,TX
6 99 APA CENTENNIAL,DENVER,CO
7 98 PDK DEKALB-PEACHTREE,ATLANTA,GA
8 83 PHL PHILADELPHIA INTL,PHILADELPHIA,PA
9 79 HPN WESTCHESTER COUNTY,WHITE PLAINS,NY
10 75 CMH PORT COLUMBUS INTL,COLUMBUS,OH
11 73 CLT CHARLOTTE/DOUGLAS INTL,CHARLOTTE,NC
12 73 SDL SCOTTSDALE,SCOTTSDALE,AZ
13 72 BHM BIRMINGHAM INTL,BIRMINGHAM,AL
14 66 HOU WILLIAM P HOBBY,HOUSTON,TX
15 64 PBI PALM BEACH INTL,WEST PALM BEACH,FL

ALL Flights (52073 landings/24hrs)
1 1398 ATL THE WILLIAM B HARTSFIELD ATLANTA INTL,ATLANTA
2 1342 ORD CHICAGO O'HARE INTL,CHICAGO
3 960 DFW DALLAS/FORT WORTH INTERNATIONAL,DALLAS-FORT WORTH
4 827 IAD WASHINGTON DULLES INTERNATIONAL,WASHINGTON
5 807 PHL PHILADELPHIA INTL,PHILADELPHIA
6 790 DTW DETROIT METROPOLITAN WAYNE COUNTY,DETROIT
7 782 DEN DENVER INTL,DENVER
8 781 LAX LOS ANGELES INTL,LOS ANGELES
9 778 MSP MINNEAPOLIS-ST PAUL INTL/WOLD-CHAMBERLAIN/,MINNEAPOLIS
10 761 CLT CHARLOTTE/DOUGLAS INTL,CHARLOTTE
11 759 CVG CINCINNATI/NORTHERN KENTUCKY INTERNATIONAL,COVINGTON/CINCINNATI, OH
12 721 PHX PHOENIX SKY HARBOR INTL,PHOENIX
13 717 IAH GEORGE BUSH INTERCONTINENTAL ARPT/HOUSTON,HOUSTON
14 693 LAS MC CARRAN INTL,LAS VEGAS
15 629 LGA LA GUARDIA,NEW YORK
Keeping PHL Spotting Alive Daily!
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting Runway27right (Reply 39):
Airport arrivals in past 24 hrs. Based on this, I guess LAX is also a second tier Airport.

wow, i've never seen PHL rank that high on any frequency survey, even a daily one.

i guess the WN effect is really working. i remember reading all the time in the inquirer several years ago how PHL was constantly underperforming expectations. i guess that is no longer the case. glad to hear it!
 
7e72004
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Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:15 am

RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:57 am

Just out of curiosity, how far is PNE from PHL?
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
haveric
Posts: 1219
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 9:31 am

RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 41):
Just out of curiosity, how far is PNE from PHL?

About 10 miles north on I-95. It's between I-95 and US-1 in Northeast Philly.

Hasn't had commercial service since the mid-90s, when a TWA affiliate ran connections to JFK. If you do a search, there have been more detailed postings on PNE.

FWIW, I played Little League across the street from PNE, back in the day.
 
SonOfACaptain
Posts: 1695
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 5:36 am

RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:57 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 40):
i guess the WN effect is really working.

Not really. The biggest thing that has afffect PHL is the closing of the PIT bub, and US shifting a lot of the flights to PHL, along with CLT.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
hjulicher
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:26 pm

RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:36 am

Although PHL is a large airport, I don't forsee it becoming an efficient hub any time soon. I have flown into the airport many times, and I must commend it for its passenger conveniences such as the septa lines right up to the terminals, and its convenient location. However, because of US's status, I really can't see PHL becoming a hub like NW's DTW hub. How many travelers use PHL as a hub airport. It's location is not convenient for connections unless you are traveling to/from some east coast city, which many people do, but also have many other options of getting there. The only time I have used the airport as a connection was on US when flying to Newport News/Williamsburg, and NW does not serve it from DTW. However, a city like Philadelphia does warrant to be a hub of some sort of legacy airline, so the current conditions are the result of that.

When flying out of PHL, a I overheard a NW pilot say that the terminal is not convenient because of the piers, and that planes must wait for departing planes to leave the gate before arriving ones can enter the area? (wording). Therefore causing many ground delays.

I have studied forms of the most efficient airport, and DEN and ATL as well as IAD all have the linear terminals connected with rail setup. If PHL did opt for the diagonal runway, which would be better for future expansion than the parallel set-up. Although, then a major overhaul of the terminals would be needed. I never understood why I-95 doesn't run under a runway. The way it's set up makes avoid the runway and airport by sort of semi-circling the complex. In AMS, I know that many of the highways go underneath the runways. Also, across from the airport, I think there is a lake or some swampy area that could also be used as airport land.

Additionally, I don't think that if the diagonal runway approach was used that the landing approaches would fly over Media, Swarthmore, and the other high-middle class suburbs. The runways would be almost perfectly aligned on the 9/27 direction. Therefore they wouldn't fly over the areas, but rather would fly along the I-95 corridor.

Lastly, here in Detroit, the flight path for landings actually does fly over the wealthiest suburbs. It would be as if the flight path went down the main line. And i know for sure that the approach in DTW flies where the planes start alligning themselves onto the runway are over Bloomfield Hills, Birmingham, Beverly Hills, Southfield and Dearborn. Just in case you didn't know, Bloomfield Hills is one of the top 10 wealthiest communities in the country, and they don't seem to have a problem with the planes flying over their community.

It would really be amazing to see PHL transform into a mega hub. -To the likes of ORD, ATL, DEN (sortof/will be), LAX. JFK has lots of flights, but mainly are international and therefore really don't apply to the hub system.
LH 442
 
usairways85
Posts: 3548
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 43):
Not really. The biggest thing that has afffect PHL is the closing of the PIT bub, and US shifting a lot of the flights to PHL, along with CLT.

While US has added a good 75-100 flts in the past year to PHL, Southwest has added 50 flts of its own. If Southwest gets another gate or two expect that number to go up to 60-65. So i wouldn't say Southwest hasn't had an affect on the increase in flts at PHL. Also Southwest has increased PHL O&D numbers considerably, up to where they should be for the size population wise of Philadelphia
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:22 pm

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 43):
Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 40):
i guess the WN effect is really working.

Not really. The biggest thing that has afffect PHL is the closing of the PIT bub, and US shifting a lot of the flights to PHL, along with CLT.

-SOAC

SOAC, what you describe IS the southwest effect!!!

WN comes into a new market, they put pressure on other airlines to ramp up their flight schedules to compete. fares drop, the airport becomes more competitive, more flights from more airlines come out every day, and more passengers show up at the gates!

US's decision to shift operations came after WN announced entry into the PHL market.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 44):
I really can't see PHL becoming a hub like NW's DTW hub. How many travelers use PHL as a hub airport. It's location is not convenient for connections unless you are traveling to/from some east coast city, which many people do, but also have many other options of getting there.

The fact is is that it already is a hub airport. We aren't talking about an airport that wants to be a hub.

As for the East coast comment EWR is on the East coast and is a hub, IAD is an East coast city and is a hub, CLT is East Coast and is a hub, and ATL is an east coast city and is a hub. The fact that it is on the East coast makes it convienient for European operations. PHL is with in a 3 hour drive of over 50% of the nations population so O&D traffic is a draw. And with the use of small planes every little town up and down the Northeast corridor is connected by air. PHL is actually a great location that many airlines covet. UA still wants it if they can get it eventually. NW wants it with a passion. And as we have seen WN came in and immediately saw its potential and started building.

As for the pier problem. PHL is an old design, this is very true. However, ORD is a massive hub and most of its operations are still in piers. SFO is a huge hub and its operations are in piers.

I think that the parrell terminals have proven to be more efficent. And with the redesign of PHL that is a consideration. It was mentioned serveral times in articles about airport expantion in the Philadelphia Inquirer. However, for that massive an undertaking the runways must have priority. The Runways are the main reason PHL can't grow. The airport on busy days comfortably pushes back 40 or 50 airplanes which then sit for hours on end waiting to take off. The terminal isn't the problem at this point.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:56 pm

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 44):
If PHL did opt for the diagonal runway, which would be better for future expansion than the parallel set-up. Although, then a major overhaul of the terminals would be needed. I never understood why I-95 doesn't run under a runway. The way it's set up makes avoid the runway and airport by sort of semi-circling the complex. In AMS, I know that many of the highways go underneath the runways. Also, across from the airport, I think there is a lake or some swampy area that could also be used as airport land.

Additionally, I don't think that if the diagonal runway approach was used that the landing approaches would fly over Media, Swarthmore, and the other high-middle class suburbs. The runways would be almost perfectly aligned on the 9/27 direction. Therefore they wouldn't fly over the areas, but rather would fly along the I-95 corridor.

Oh man, where do I start:

1. The ground that PHL is situated on is mostly built on filled marshland; if there wasn't marsh or wetland out there, there would be skyscrapers on the ground today. It took PennDOT at least 15 years (mostly going through bureaucratic hurdles and appeasing NIMBYs) to finish building I-95 in that vicinity; the missing link opened in 1985. Originally, the southwestern terminus of another highway, I-695 a.k.a. the Cobbs Creek Expressway, was also planned to connect I-95 in this area; traces of ghost ramps are still visable at spots along the airport interchange w/95. That highway plan was killed off by the late '70s. One proposed alignment of I-95, way back when, had the roadway running along the southern edge of the airport. That being said, I don't believe that depressing I-95 and/or filling more land for a runway will ever get approved. The permitting process for a runway/highway tunnel alone would take 10 years never mind construction. This tunnel endeavor would be a lot larger than the Fort Mifflin Road tunnel under the Runway 8-26 embankment that was constructed several years ago.

2. Diagonal runway layout proposal: I have to call hogwash on your assertion that Media and Swarthmore won't be impacted by this layout. The proposed diagonal layout has the runways arranged in a northwest/southeast layout (12L-30R & 12R-30L) and not a northeast/southwest arrangement (example: 4L-22R & 4R-22L). When this proposal was unveiled at public meetings last year; many residents from the above-Delaware County communities (and then some) came in litterally tore this proposal apart verbally. I would suggest that you re-examine a map of the area before drawing to such a conclusion.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

RE: How Near Is PHL To Capacity?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:10 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 48):
Diagonal runway layout proposal: I have to call hogwash on your assertion that Media and Swarthmore won't be impacted by this layout.

where are the outward locators right now? where would they be shifted if PHL switched to a diagonal layout?

(sorry, air traffic control layperson speaking here)

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