cornish
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BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:24 pm

From this morning's ATW.....

BA in no hurry to find 747 successor
Friday April 15, 2005
In response to speculation that British Airways will be a launch customer for the 747ADV, CEO Rod Eddington told ATWOnline yesterday that "the most pressing aircraft acquisition project for BA is the 767 replacement." According to Eddington, BA currently is looking at both the A350 and 787. It was one of the airlines heavily involved in the evolution of the 7E7/787 from the Sonic Cruiser program, with Eddington arguing that efficiency was far better than speed.

BA's interest in the 787/A350 comes as speculation mounts that Northwest Airlines is about to order 18 Dreamliners (ATWOnline, April 13). Balance sheet issues still dominate the strategy at BA and Eddington said the airline's oldest 747-400 is only 15 years old. It currently operates 57 747-400s, according to the Airclaims CASE database.

"We have plenty of time to make a decision and the 777-300ER looks very attractive. We may never buy the A380 or 747ADV," he said. In the late 1990s, BA canceled a number of 747-400 orders and replaced them with 777-200ERs as it pursued more long-haul nonstops.

by Geoffrey Thomas
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
scotron11
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:48 pm

Quoting Cornish (Thread starter):

"We have plenty of time to make a decision and the 777-300ER looks very attractive

Past statement by Mr Eddington have indicated they have coveted smaller rather than larger aircraft, as part of their Future Size & Shape program. Did they not at one time want to off-load some of their 744's?

While not saying they would definitely "not" buy the 747ADV or A380, maybe a sizeable order for T7's is a surer thing.
 
thaigold
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:55 pm

How many 767's does BA currently operate? And when would a replacement start?

Would the 767's be replaced 1 for 1??

Thanks!
Dunbar Rovers forever
 
cornish
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:56 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 1):
While not saying they would definitely "not" buy the 747ADV or A380, maybe a sizeable order for T7's is a surer thing.

It does rather sound that way. I think that might be their next significant order - or at least delivery if they do get the 787/A350 order in first.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
cornish
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:58 pm

Quoting Thaigold (Reply 2):
How many 767's does BA currently operate? And when would a replacement start?

21 I think - used on a mixture of short haul and long haul in different configurations.

As to 1 for 1 ? who knows for sure ?
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
na
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:16 pm

That the 767 need replacement before the 744 is clear and no surprise. That there is no need to replace 744s before 2010, also.

That they contemplate to order 773ERs instead of 747Advanced or A380 sounds alarming to me, though. How do they think to be competitive in the future then when VS and all major foreign airlines coming to LHR have the A380? Especially in First or business the A380 will be miles ahead of a 777. I always thought BA is especailly looking for that type of client. I wouldn´t think about BA a single second anymore if this foolish idea becomes reality.
 
zvezda
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:21 pm

I expect BA will order at least as many Dreamliners as they have B767s to replace, probably with options for expansion.

I don't think BA were ever a plausible customer for the WhaleJet. LHR is slot-restricted, but BA have the slots. They will replace their JumboJets with either the B747Adv or the B777-300ER or more likely a combination of the two.
 
ha763
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:34 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 5):
How do they think to be competitive in the future then when VS and all major foreign airlines coming to LHR have the A380?

All of those airlines have limited slots at LHR and the only way for them to increase capacity is to use a larger aircraft, the A380. BA doesn't really have this problem, having the most slots at LHR. As for interiors, BA can always upgrade them.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:40 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
I don't think BA were ever a plausible customer for the WhaleJet.

I think they are, on specific routes where not only slot restrictions apply, but other operating restrictions that require flights to arrive or depart at specific times, eg inbound from SA or Far East. But BA are going to wait and see how QF get on with their 380's on the Kangaroo Route before committing - they are in no rush, and being an early adopter is always risky (and expensive). I could see BA operating A380's to JNB, SIN, SYD, HKG and JFK (6 daily 744's and a 777, that's a lot !).
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cornish
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:41 pm

I think BA will pay a waiting and watching game with the A380.

They want to see if it proves to be a real success I think. Should it really revolutionise the skies and VS in particular do very well with it, then BA will very likely look to purchase the aircraft to compete with its closest rivals. If they order, it will be once the aircraft is flying, not prior to the programme. I don't think they (and the shareholders) are prepared to invest that sort of money right now. I just don't think they will commit until they can clearly see what is being offered by the manufacturers in reality - i.e. some real costs, not projected ones.

I could see the 777-300s joining the fleet - in part replacing some 747s but not all. Some 747s got replaced by 777-200s in the past, so it would not be a huge surprise to see -300s replacing some (but certainly not all) of the 747s
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
CRJ900
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:42 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 5):
That they contemplate to order 773ERs instead of 747Advanced or A380 sounds alarming to me, though. How do they think to be competitive in the future then when VS and all major foreign airlines coming to LHR have the A380? Especially in First or business the A380 will be miles ahead of a 777. I always thought BA is especailly looking for that type of client. I wouldn´t think about BA a single second anymore if this foolish idea becomes reality.

Perhaps BA is the smart one, being able to offer small "exclusive" cabins on the 777 as opposed to huge A380 cabins. Being one of 30 "exclusive" customers sounds more appealing than being one of 140. Even though the seat and amenities will be better on the A380 (so I hear...), exclusivity consist of BOTH quantity and quality, not one out of two...
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zvezda
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:53 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 8):
I could see BA operating A380's to JNB, SIN, SYD, HKG and JFK (6 daily 744's and a 777, that's a lot !).

The B747Adv would do fine on all of those routes. If BA can carry the same number of passengers on 6 B747Adv or 5 A380-800 with the same operating costs, then Boeing wins. Passengers will pay slightly higher fares for the added frequency and BA has more flexibility. I don't think BA will switch to, say, 8 B777-300 per day to JFK because the B777-300 has higher seat-mile costs than the A380-800 and B747Adv. The only chance Airbus have of selling the WhaleJet to BA will be if the B747Adv fails to match or beat the WhaleJet's seat-mile costs.
 
Btblue
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:20 pm

Do you honestly think the A350 is a contender?

BA Looking at the A350 is merely a matter of procedure. My money is on the 787.

[Edited 2005-04-15 12:21:24]
146/2/3 737/2/3/4/5/7/8/9 A320 1/2/18/19/21 DC9/40/50 DC10/30 A300/6 A330/2/3 A340/3/6 A380 757/2/3 747/4 767/3/4 787 77
 
JGPH1A
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:47 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 11):
Passengers will pay slightly higher fares for the added frequency and BA has more flexibility.

True, where frequency still means travelling when you want. On some specific longer routes, pax will only travel at night, eg JNB/CPT-LHR - airlines have tried daylights services, to up aircraft utilisation, but nobody's interested, especially not those travelling up front. On JNB-LHR, BA have 2 744's travelling out within an hour of each other - That could either be one or two 380's, making tons more money using the same slots etc. Similiar on SIN-LHR - BA16/BA18 leave SIN within half an hour of one another. Similiar from TYO, 2 744's within 2 hours. These are all routes where the travel window is not a 12 hour period all day, like to the US East Coast, you have maybe 3 or 4 hours max. The only way to make more money on these types of time-constrictive longhaul routes is to put bigger aircraft on. That, combined with the fact that their larger competitors on the Kangaroo Route (SQ, TG and QF - ok not a competitor, but still) will all be offering the theoretical extra space and comfort of the 380, could push BA towards looking at the 380.
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cornish
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:53 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 13):
On JNB-LHR, BA have 2 744's travelling out within an hour of each other - That could either be one or two 380's, making tons more money using the same slots etc.



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 13):
The only way to make more money on these types of time-constrictive longhaul routes is to put bigger aircraft on.

Yep and those South Africa flights are very full indeed (for SA and VS too). Remember in some cases that BA might have the slots at LHR but the bilaterals won't allow more flights. I'm pretty certain that is the case with UK-SA, so it may be that only a larger aircraft would fulfil the demand on the routes if a renegotiation isn't successful.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
BA380
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:10 pm

I would personally be staggered if BA don't at some point look at the 747adv or the 388.

But I don't think they will do so any time soon. They are still working on their balance sheet cleansing programme, which is going down well in the city.
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lutfi
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:17 pm

Or put the prices up. Or increase # of front end seats, and fewer economy class seats.

That is what I have always found odd about Airbus A380 market analysis. They take it as given that airlines should meet demand with bigger aircraft, rather than make more money by increasing average fares.
 
leelaw
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:22 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 5):
How do they think to be competitive in the future then when VS and all major foreign airlines coming to LHR have the A380? Especially in First or business the A380 will be miles ahead of a 777. I always thought BA is especailly looking for that type of client.



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 13):
The only way to make more money on these types of time-constrictive longhaul routes is to put bigger aircraft on.

BA's boardroom must be populated with myopic ostriches, they won't even defend their nest!  Wink
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DeltaWings
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:39 pm

When they day comes (about in 5 years) and BA has to replace its 747 fleet, then I definetly think they will stick to the 773 and 747ADV. I definetly dont think BA will get the A346 to replace its current 747s, so if they go for Boeing then (773), the 747Adv and 787 have a high chance.


~DeltaWings
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keesje
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:40 pm

Quoting Cornish (Thread starter):
Rod Eddington : "We have plenty of time to make a decision and the 777-300ER looks very attractive. We may never buy the A380 or 747ADV," he said.

 Smile

option 1 : BA may never buy the A380 or 747ADV, they will replace 747's with smaller aircraft on the rapidly growing Asian markets. Seat mile cost are not an issue.

option 2 : Rod doesn't like the options / prices he has from Boeing & Airbus & is sending out "I don't need you" signals as part of (future) negotiations.

pick one..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
JoFMO
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:45 pm

@Lufti: On most routes BA has strong competitors. They cannot simply higher the fares. At a certain degree aven the higher paying passengers switch to your competitor.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:30 pm

Isn't Rod Eddington on his way out at BA.......?

I also think Keesje is right with option 2.

Cheers!
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A350
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:20 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 21):
Isn't Rod Eddington on his way out at BA.......?

Thats the point! Who cares about Eddington's opinion of BA's long-term fleet strategy? I think Keesje is right with option 2: he just wants to give his successor the best possible position for future negociations.

Quoting Cornish (Thread starter):
Eddington said the airline's oldest 747-400 is only 15 years old

That's funny. It will be difficult to get an A380 long before 2010 if you order now, and then the oldest 747 is 20 years old. As I say in my signature: maybe they wait for the A380-900.

A350
 
N1120A
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:36 am

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 1):
Did they not at one time want to off-load some of their 744's?

They were supposed to be sending some to CX, though that has not happened yet

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 8):
I could see BA operating A380's to JNB, SIN, SYD, HKG and JFK (6 daily 744's and a 777, that's a lot !).

The reason they converted 744 orders to 772ERs was because they wanted to go with higher frequency. Still, the 747ADV would provide an extra 40-50 seats for them as well as lower CASM. As it is, 773ERs will not replace the 3 744s on LHR-LAX, as the window is rather small for the flights as is, and LAX will certainly not have the facilities for that many A380s, as LAX is having trouble finding a way to fit just one A380 into the airport. The 747ADV would make that much easier
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JGPH1A
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:39 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
The reason they converted 744 orders to 772ERs was because they wanted to go with higher frequency.

Yes - on routes where frequencies can be offered throughout the day. On routes where they can't (e.g. HKG, TYO, JNB etc), they are operating the largest aircraft possible, multiple times within a short window. These are the routes that the A380 is designed for.
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Beaucaire
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:53 am

Well since Eddington will be history soon, the strategy of BA's procurement policies might be slightly up for review as well.
Although not related - when the former Lufthansa boss Weber was replaced,his credo of never to have LH invest into a foreign airlines was relatively soon revoked by his successor.(they are now clearly out looking actively to buy another airline )
On the longrun ,BA will have a hard time competing against the A380 for obvious slot restrictions on some airports and comfort -competetiveness reasons.
The 767 replacment will most likely go to Boeing -the brotherhood link with big brother USA is simply to strong.
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airfrnt
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting NA (Reply 5):
That they contemplate to order 773ERs instead of 747Advanced or A380 sounds alarming to me, though. How do they think to be competitive in the future then when VS and all major foreign airlines coming to LHR have the A380? Especially in First or business the A380 will be miles ahead of a 777. I always thought BA is especailly looking for that type of client. I wouldn´t think about BA a single second anymore if this foolish idea becomes reality.

The compete by offering more frequency out of the airport at less seat cost. British Airways is one of the companies that was actually around when the 747 introduction blew capacity problems sky high with a huge boost in the number of seats without the route structure/utilization to actually require it.

Quoting Btblue (Reply 12):
Do you honestly think the A350 is a contender?

Sure. This goes back to Airbus's chief problem with the A350. The A350 competes against the 777 not the 787 (unless Boeing streaches it). If BA is strictly looking for a replacement for their 767s, it means that the A350 or 777 is too large. Even if BA decides that they want to expand capacity they will do that by moving to a 777 or A350 not A380.

On the other hand, I think that BA will pick up a mixture of 787s and 777-300ERs for this. The 787 hits the sweet spot, and may even allow BA to double frequency to routes like LHR-ATL with better operating costs to boot while the 777-300ERs will allow upward growth on single frequency flights that tend to be filled up (for example LHR-DEN) but probably could not sustain 2x flights a day.
 
galapagapop
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:20 am

Now if they mention 773er's, what are the chances for a 787/777 order? Several airlines like the look of this combo maybe BA will as well.

Cheers!
 
daedaeg
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 25):
The 767 replacment will most likely go to Boeing -the brotherhood link with big brother USA is simply to strong.

I doubt it has anything to do with brotherhood, but more to do with Boeing having a superior product offering.
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
Shamrock_747
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:37 am

BA will select the aircraft which is best for the airline, regardless of any UK-USA/EU relationship.

As a private airline BA can hardly go to its shareholders trying to justify an aircraft purchase based on the political relationships of a government who have had little to do with BA for the best part of two decades.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:43 am

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 28):
I doubt it has anything to do with brotherhood, but more to do with Boeing having a superior product offering.

In all it's history BA has never choosen any Airbus-model but merely inherited the 320's from it's takeover from British Caledonian.It is highly unlikely that the complete model-range of Airbus has consistently the least feature list in compliance with BA requirements. I therefore have some doubts as to the unpartiality of some BA directors when it comes to replace aircraft.I have strictly nothing against Boeing and think their products are terrific pieces of technology and performance.But politics do play a role in strategic acqusitions -even in privately run and owned companies.
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jacobin777
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting Shamrock_747 (Reply 29):
As a private airline BA can hardly go to its shareholders

I think "publically traded company" would be a more suitable comment, but yes..your point was well understood and completely correct...  Wink

"It was one of the airlines heavily involved in the evolution of the 7E7/787 from the Sonic Cruiser program, with Eddington arguing that efficiency was far better than speed."

I wonder if that is a prelude of what's to come....my bet is on the 787, but only time will tell...

I also believe they will eventually go for the 747Adv (if its offered, which I think it will)

i'm still in the camp that AC will go for the A350..but I hope I'm wrong about this.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
WAH64D
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting Btblue (Reply 12):
Do you honestly think the A350 is a contender?

BA Looking at the A350 is merely a matter of procedure. My money is on the 787.

My money too! BA has an entirely Boeing long-haul fleet and went for A320 series for short haul over B737NG. BA has never had a long haul Airbus and I don't think they ever will. I think they are about as sure a bet as you can get for the 787 although I hope they stick to 772s instead of 773s. 773s have a strange and sickening motion in the cruise if you are sat too far away from the wing.
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Kangar
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:05 am

People forget that Rod Eddington probably won't have any major inputs on this call ultimately, Willie Walsh will be BA CEO by the time decision is made. In his time at EI, they have gone to a pretty much all Airbus fleet, so while not having the casting vote, he will probably have a small counterbalance effect on the board's tendency to go Boeing. Might make the outcome a little more difficult to predict.
The other thing I find hard to fathom, is various major airline's fascination with increasing frequency, and hence the airline's fuel seat mile costs. With other carriers probably being able to move folks out of heathrow with lower seat-mile costs due to the sheer bulk movement capability of the A380, I think the option of frequent flights may become a less viable business model. The economic world seems to have pretty much conceded that high fuel prices are here for the long term, possibly for good. I would struggle to believe it would cost more to fly 1100 folks to Singapore from LHR on 2 A380s versus say 4 777-200s. Not the best example, but I hope you see my point?
 
avek00
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:12 am

BA simply does not have the same need for a super-jumbo that SQ or EK does - when BA wants to fly somewhere or add capacity ex-LHR, they simply jigger the skeds to make it happen - SQ and EK lack the ability to do this, and therefore have to fly larger aircraft. Ditto for NH and JL in NRT.
Live life to the fullest.
 
A350
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting Kangar (Reply 33):
In his time at EI, they have gone to a pretty much all Airbus fleet, so while not having the casting vote, he will probably have a small counterbalance effect on the board's tendency to go Boeing.
...
I would struggle to believe it would cost more to fly 1100 folks to Singapore from LHR on 2 A380s versus say 4 777-200s. Not the best example, but I hope you see my point?

In the first part, I don't agree with you. It's the airlines needs what counts and what fits best in the existing fleet. The 773ER fits perfectly into the existing T7 fleet, and Airbus has nothing to counter the 783. After all, BA and LH are the only european airlines needing shorthaul widebodies.

For the second part, you are right. They won't come around the competitor's seat-mile-costs on their A380s, and even BA cannot easily get new slots for further growth.

A350
 
star_world
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 30):
In all it's history BA has never choosen any Airbus-model but merely inherited the 320's from it's takeover from British Caledonian

How would you then explain the addition of the A319 to the fleet (in very large quantities) and the even more recent addition of the A321?

Your comment is completely misleading. BA inherited a handful of A320s from BCal, it has made all the other choices (including adding much more A320s) all by itself...
 
Morvious
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 7):
All of those airlines have limited slots at LHR and the only way for them to increase capacity is to use a larger aircraft, the A380. BA doesn't really have this problem, having the most slots at LHR. As for interiors, BA can always upgrade them.

BA has the same issue on other airports around the world.

My guess is that BA will order some 787's first. The A350 started to late, and will be no player for this game!
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
NYC777
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:00 am

It sounds like BA is interested in the 773ER so I believe to sweeten the deal, Boeing should/would add the 787 and take the out dated 767s of BAs hands and give a great financing package to boot.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
iowa744fan
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RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting NA (Reply 5):
Especially in First or business the A380 will be miles ahead of a 777.

Just like with the new 787 seats, do you honestly think that airlines won't re-outfit aircraft with the newer product? My apologies if you mean the number as there is no argument there.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
LAX is having trouble finding a way to fit just one A380 into the airport.

Would they have to use the remote gates? Is there room to park them at the ends of any of the concourses?

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 26):
double frequency to routes like LHR-ATL

Just a minor correction, you mean LGW-ATL. Bermuda 2 doesn't allow them to fly ATL-LHR because Delta flies ATL-LGW.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 30):
In all it's history BA has never choosen any Airbus-model

As commented on just a second ago, they did order the A320 series in large number recently. However, your point is true with regards to widebody aircraft.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:57 am

Some BA watchers will have an indication of which way this will go, and a slight indiscretion on BA's part last year could explain a lot.

A BA staffer publicly stated that "the incoming CEO has a preference for Airbus aircraft". This was before Willie Walsh was publicly confirmed as the new CEO at British Airways.

Willie was in post at EI when they bought the A330 and A320 family. It also confirms what many BA-watchers have suspected, that Walsh was tapped up for the job some time ago and losers like me got it wrong when we thought Barbara Cassani might be the surprise appointment.

So it's Boeing's deal to win at this stage. I would love to see them go and play hardball for the BA fleet requirements as they could book 787 orders for BA in a mutually convenient timeslot. BA doesn't need a 767 replacement urgently and those Rolls powered airframes would be hard to place in the market for second users. Those 763 aircraft are also not exactly the oldest around, some being relatively young.

Willie also has a track record with GE after buying the CF6 family for the EI A330 instead of a Rolls or Pratt engine (both previously suppliers to Air Fungus) plus BA has GE90 powered 772 aircraft in the fleet. That makes the 773ER even more of a possibility in the BA longterm plans, maybe with an eventual 773ER/A380 split on longhaul.

BA is playing a longterm game which increasing financial stability and lower debt levels allows them to do. It'll be interesting to watch.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Planesmart
Posts: 1880
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:32 am

Given BA comments to financial markets including S&P about fleet additions/replacements (lack of), unless B or A make a short life offer they cannot refuse, don't expect to see ink on contracts soon.

Of course the unknown is the WW factor. New CEO's want to make a few quick decisions, popular with staff (and then usually a few more, popular with shareholders and the Board, and often less popular with staff), and an early announcement on fleet purchases could be just that.
 
Thrust
Posts: 2586
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:40 am

I never imagined anybody saying the 747-400 is too small for a market....just unbelievable that it is. I also agree that the 747-400s are being replaced way too soon...most are not even 10 years old.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 40):
Willie also has a track record with GE after buying the CF6 family for the EI A330 instead of a Rolls or Pratt engine (both previously suppliers to Air Fungus) plus BA has GE90 powered 772 aircraft in the fleet. That makes the 773ER even more of a possibility in the BA longterm plans, maybe with an eventual 773ER/A380 split on longhaul.

I think EI's balance sheet probably had more to do with the engine choice than personal preference. BA have extensive links with RR, hence the IAE engine on the A319/320/321s. As I said before, they only got GE engined 772s because of a very sweet deal where BA bought the GE engine plant in Cardiff. Even this was only for the first few 772s. The vast majority of BA 777-200s are RR Trent powered.

I can't see BA going GE anytime soon. Political pressure from the British government is another factor. RR employs a lot of people in the UK.

[Edited 2005-04-15 22:50:05]
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
ha763
Posts: 3170
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:36 pm

RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 43):
The vast majority of BA 777-200s are RR Trent powered.

Actually, more of BA's 777s have GE engines than RR engines. 16 -200ERs with RRs and 24 -200ERs and 3 -200s with GEs. I also believe BA got the RRs for the 777 when they converted their remaining 747 orders with RR engines to the 777.
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting Thrust (Reply 42):
I never imagined anybody saying the 747-400 is too small for a market....just unbelievable that it is.

Part of the problem is that many people insist on it. Personally, I think if BA goes for 787's as opposed to 747A, then I am not worried; it was expected.

Had it not been for the word 'may', I do think was very pretenious for Eddington say "We may never buy the A380 or 747ADV".
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
DarthRandall
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:17 am

RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
In all it's history BA has never choosen any Airbus-model but merely inherited the 320's from it's takeover from British Caledonian.It is highly unlikely that the complete model-range of Airbus has consistently the least feature list in compliance with BA requirements. I therefore have some doubts as to the unpartiality of some BA directors when it comes to replace aircraft.

AirFrance also has a history of choosing Boeing planes like the 747 and the 777 for similar routes. The transatlantic routes in general seem to fall heavily in Boeing's favor. They have since the 707. BA does have a close working relationship with Boeing, and there's no doubt that Americans in general love the Britts (hopefully the feeling is mutual despite Dubya's doin's). However, don't think that they would hesitate to buy an Airbus competitor if they thought that it would generate more profits. BA is a business, and in business it's all about getting payed. Look for them to jump the fence and buy a few A380s. They're just being carful about a new technology right now.

Quoting Thrust (Reply 42):
I never imagined anybody saying the 747-400 is too small for a market....just unbelievable that it is. I also agree that the 747-400s are being replaced way too soon...most are not even 10 years old.

The technology is moving faster these days. It's starting to feel like the computer maket in the late ninties. No question such an awesome aircraft deserves a longer run, but the arilines can't afford to wait too long on a plane like the A380 or the 747Adv.
Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads all the time and don't even think twice about it.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:19 am

I'm sure Eddington and Walsh have had some majour discussions about this..but as most of the posts stated above, I think it will boil down to which manufacturer will provide BA with the best overall service.....I think the 787 and 777s and possibly the 747ADV's are more in the cards than the A350, A340s and A380...also, is it not correct that some of the 787s technologies (such as engines) will be "swappable" with the 747Adv's? Would that play a hand in BA's decisions?
"Up the Irons!"
 
United Airline
Posts: 8782
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:51 am

The B 747-400s are still very new and they need not be replaced anytime soon. Maybe not for another 10 years!

So maybe they should first look at the B 787.

I doubt they will replace their B 747-400s with B 777-300ERs which means a capacity reduction. When it comes to replacement I am sure they will replace their B 747-400s with B 747 Advanced on a 1 to 1 basis. They might order some A 380s too. Who knows? BA LOVES the B 747s.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: BA Looking At 787/A350 Before 747ADV/A380

Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:08 pm

Quoting Iowa744fan (Reply 39):
Would they have to use the remote gates? Is there room to park them at the ends of any of the concourses?

Remote gates almost exclusively and that does not solve taxiway problems. TBIT has maybe 2 gates than can hold them, but not without f'ing things up

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 44):
16 -200ERs with RRs and 24 -200ERs and 3 -200s with GEs. I

The -200ERs with GE's are lower gross weight models and have shorter range than the -200ERs with Trents
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss

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