GalvanAir777
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What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:13 am

Now, i recently understand that TED now flies out of Midway International (i love saying that by the way) but whats the chance of seeing UALs mainline birds out of the MDW?

Since AA,DL,CO, and NW all fly out of MDW, why not UAL?

Id love to see some UAL 57s and 37s out of MDW.  Smile
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StevenUhl777
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:15 am

Slim and none, and slim just left town.

If anything, TED will expand there to meet low-cost leisure demand.
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GalvanAir777
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:24 am

But why? It seems to me anyway that the other bigs AA and DL do well out of MDW?

Is it because UAL dominates ORD? but wouldnt that be the same for AA too?
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jdaniel001
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:43 am

Quoting GalvanAir777 (Reply 2):
Is it because UAL dominates ORD? but wouldnt that be the same for AA too?

UA could be it's worse enemy by offering mainline service out of MDW. They are doing the right thing by just adding TED.
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iowaman
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:02 am

Quoting GalvanAir777 (Reply 2):
But why?

Because of the ATA codeshare, WN already sells tickets to DEN and DCA, thus the need for low-fare TED rather than UA mainline.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:23 am

UA tried flying mainline to MDW four times in the past (not including pre-ORD days). They failed each time. I hope Ted works out there, but with WN, I'm not holding my breath.
 
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:35 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 4):
WN already sells tickets to DEN and DCA, thus the need for low-fare TED rather than UA mainline.

I would have thought it would be exactly the other way around. Why not offer the MDW pax something different from WN, not something similar.

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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:36 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
Why not offer the MDW pax something different from WN, not something similar.

They have something different. It's called O'Hare.  Wink
 
iowaman
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:41 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
I would have thought it would be exactly the other way around. Why not offer the MDW pax something different from WN, not something similar.

Well there probably is a few people that want something different than WN, but then again people are more concerned about price. People near MDW are most likely acustomed to low fares and not willing to pay more than 20 bucks more then WN's fare to fly UA Mainline. Also, your username reminded me Frontier flies to DEN, there is lots of competeion between the three, thus the need for low fare TED.
 
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:06 am

Iowaman:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 8):
your username reminded me Frontier flies to DEN, there is lots of competeion between the three, thus the need for low fare TED.

I suppose that's my point. Why join the mob? Why not give 'em something different?

I take your point about fares, and you may be correct, but United mainline doesn't seem to charge much more than any LCC on routes where they dirtectly compete. In fact, on a lot of routes, United mainline is sometimes cheaper than the LCC competition.

So I'm just puzzled. No more than that.  Smile

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stirling
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:38 pm

Because it would go against the "grain" of what Midway is becoming, a low-fares airline airport. Airlines by serving Midway, align themselves with that identity.
The public is developing the perception, if they have not already, that by traveling out of Midway-The Budget Airport, they are somehow saving money. Almost second-class status in Chicagoland.

(Besides hubs, and a few cities, how many airports does UA and TED serve together; excluding SFO, DEN, LAX....?)

Keeping TED separate from Mainline is a difficult task. UA doesn't need to muddle the identity of it's core brand in it's strongest market; Chicago.
I say the perfect arrangement until such time Ted is spun off, or goes away. (Which we all know is going to happen someday, it's only inevitable)

Wondering if it should be done, SFO>>OAK, LAX>>BUR/ONT....?
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:50 pm

Stirling:

You're probably right. It still puzzles me, though.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 10):
how many airports does UA and TED serve together; excluding SFO, DEN, LAX....?)

Only the hubs (including IAD), I think. Which I thought was the point of Ted.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 10):
Keeping TED separate from Mainline is a difficult task. UA doesn't need to muddle the identity of it's core brand in it's strongest market; Chicago.

They don't seem to mind doing it at DEN, or SFO. Or even IAD.

Or, oddly, in Mexico. I can't see the logic, for example, of mainline DEN/CUN, and Ted DEN/SJD. Which is DEN/PVR - mainline or Ted? Does it matter?

However, given that Ted is for the leisure routes and MDW/DEN and MDW/IAD are not famously leisure routes, maybe I shall remain puzzled.

That's okay. I've been puzzled before.  Smile

cheers

mariner
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Mexicana757
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:19 pm

Quoting GalvanAir777 (Reply 2):
But why? It seems to me anyway that the other bigs AA and DL do well out of MDW?

I think AA isnt doing that good at MDW, they only have three flights to DFW. The four American Eagle flights to LGA no longer operate. When I do flight tracker checks those flights dont appear anymore.
 
midway7
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:50 pm

I think the majors AA and UA missed the boat several years ago when MDW was half empty. They should have went in there and did what ATA ended up doing. The problem is they weren't interested in the late 90's and their balance sheets went to hell after 2000.

Now, due to their lack of foresight, they have SWA to deal with. From all indications SWA is and will remain a big player in the Chicago market. Its my opinion that they are grabbing a lot more O&D traffic than people think.

At who's expense will SWA prosper, a few years back I would say AA. However, with UA's vicarious financial position and AA's more aggressive position at ORD the past few years, it is anyone's ballgame right now.

I think the majors did not realize what MDW would turn into after the new terminal was built. It's no longer a small, unfunctional, secondary facility catering to flight to MCO. It's a modern - fully functional 39 (I believe) gate facility capable of competing with ORD to a much greater extent.

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jdaniel001
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:16 pm

Quoting Midway7 (Reply 13):
It's a modern - fully functional 39 (I believe) gate facility capable of competing with ORD to a much greater extent.

How are the gates allocated. It sound like the city only had 1 gate for TED or am I wrong? Or is TED subleasing from another carrier.

I think UA is making the right decision by easing TED into MDW. They are taking the travelers who are confused or whatever by the ATA bankruptcy and pullout of some of the service there. UA would be smart to add more service and frequency slowly.
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SLUAviator
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:55 am

There was an article in Crain's Chicago Business a few weeks ago saying that WN is going to seriously expand at MDW this year. By serious expansion, they said as much as 30%. The article quoted a WN exec who said they have 25 gates at MDW, and they would love to run 10 flights per day from each. 250 flights a day out of MDW sounds like WN has UA and AA square in their sights. Oh... I forgot to mention, the title of the article was "Southwest Smells Blood."
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Capt.Fantastic
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:20 am

I believe the last time they tried mianline at Midway was in 1987 - they flew MDW - DEN and MDW - LAX with 727s. That didn't last long at all.
 
iowaman
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
Why not give 'em something different?

Drive to ORD in that case. As I said people just care about price, price and price. There is some variety with F9 having PTV's, etc. UA is trying to get TED as a recognized low-fare airline, even though it's part of UA. Maybe I'm doing a bad job explaining it.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
Or, oddly, in Mexico. I can't see the logic, for example, of mainline DEN/CUN, and Ted DEN/SJD. Which is DEN/PVR - mainline or Ted? Does it matter?

Not really, just F9 competition, and DEN to CUN seems to have fairly high fares still, which is obviously a popular destination.

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 15):
250 flights a day out of MDW sounds like WN has UA and AA square in their sights.

It won't affect UA and AA all that much, just the additional flights will clog up MDW more than it already is so it turns into ORD.
 
SLUAviator
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:00 am

WN having 250 flights a day out of MDW will directly affect UA and AA. They are competing head to head on lots of routes which will drive prices down. That hurts both UA and AA. The big difference is the airport--either origin or destination. I think a lot of people would go to MDW instead of ORD and arrive in OAK instead of SFO if it saved them money. WN is going after the big boys, and there is practically nothing UA and AA can do to stop them.
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iowaman
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 18):
WN having 250 flights a day out of MDW will directly affect UA and AA. They are competing head to head on lots of routes which will drive prices down.

AA only has three flights a day out of MDW and UA (Ted) 5. I don't think they are concerned. ORD is a totally different market and they benefit the connecting traffic there.
 
jdaniel001
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:40 am

I wonder if it would benefit TED to exploit the leisure market at MDW and offer service to Mexico?
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mariner
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:45 am

Jdaniel001:

I would think that ORD and MDW constitute a single destination (Chicago) under the US/Mexico bilateral agreement.

Since only two airlines from each country can serve any city pair between the two countries, I would guess - just a guess - that most of the Chicago/Mexico authoritiies are already taken.

I'd be fairly sure that Chicago/Cancun already has two US airlines serving the route.

But I could be wrong.  Smile

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mariner
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jdaniel001
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:48 am

Had no idea how bilateral agreements work. Thanks for the explanation Mariner.
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mariner
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 22):
Had no idea how bilateral agreements work.

It is only that bilateral agreement - US/Mexico - and it was to protect the two big Mexican airlines.

Most of the other countries do not have a limit on the number of airlines, but some have other twists and turns.

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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:27 am

The whole status thing really confuses me. I understand that some people think that by them flying, say, ORD-LAX on UA versus MDW-LAX on WN gives them a certain status or stigma. However, the overwhelming majority of people aren't going to care or remember who they are flying. A 747 and a 737 are all the same to most people and they don't care. They want the cheapest way from Chicago to Los Angeles. Besides people who find it easier to use one over the other or business people, they don't care if they use O'Hare or Midway. Cheap sells, obviously...
 
jdaniel001
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting Frequentflykid (Reply 24):
The whole status thing really confuses me. I understand that some people think that by them flying, say, ORD-LAX on UA versus MDW-LAX on WN gives them a certain status or stigma. However, the overwhelming majority of people aren't going to care or remember who they are flying. A 747 and a 737 are all the same to most people and they don't care. They want the cheapest way from Chicago to Los Angeles. Besides people who find it easier to use one over the other or business people, they don't care if they use O'Hare or Midway. Cheap sells, obviously...

I think cheap sells only to liesure travelers. I think the business travelers have a status thing and want the rewards of flying a larger a/c (with more possibilities to upgrade.) But, in Chicago, I think location does matter.
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iowaman
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 25):
I think cheap sells only to liesure travelers. I think the business travelers have a status thing and want the rewards of flying a larger a/c (with more possibilities to upgrade.) But, in Chicago, I think location does matter.

Location does definently matter, but I think the business people actually prefer smaller planes because it's quick boarding and unloading, and also quick to get your baggage if you checked any (which most probably don't).
 
milesrich
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:17 am

One thing that is never mentioned is the distribution of the population in greater Chicagoland. The western suburbs, (Naperville, Downers Grove, Oakbrook area, Elmhurst, are closer to ORD. The Northern Suburbs are much closer to ORD. MDW is closer to downtown and the Southside and South Suburban areas but the vast majority of O&D traffic in Chicago lives closer, or much closer to ORD than MDW. That is why WN is a niche marketer there, and most other service is out of ORD. And if you are driving into Chicago from the West (the Quad Cities, DeKalb, Sterling/Rock Falls, etc.) ORD is easier to get to than MDW. There now is a lot of growth the Southwest toward Joliet. This area is more easily accessed from MDW but that vast majority of the flying public lives North and West.
 
jdaniel001
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:27 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 26):
business people actually prefer smaller planes because it's quick boarding and unloading, and also quick to get your baggage if you checked any (which most probably don't).

True to a sense. Maybe a day trip. But is someone knows they are going to be gone a few days. They don't care about getting on and off quickly, they want to be upgraded.
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AADC10
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:58 am

Isn't TED essentially mainline? Other than not having First Class and being painted a different color it is the same as UA mainline and is operated by regular UA employees. It is certainly not like UAX or anything.
 
TedEx
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
However, given that Ted is for the leisure routes and MDW/DEN and MDW/IAD are not famously leisure routes, maybe I shall remain puzzled.

I would say in this case, MDW is a leisure/discount destination that's now served from two cities with Ted service to other primarily leisure destinations. I also think United wants to have some presence at MDW to block new possible entrants such as jetBlue.
 
jdaniel001
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:12 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 29):
Isn't TED essentially mainline?

It is, but with the added seats they are more competitive against other LCC's. But you probably already knew that.
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jacobin777
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:32 am

Quoting Midway7 (Reply 13):
I think the majors AA and UA missed the boat several years ago when MDW was half empty. They should have went in there and did what ATA ended up doing. The problem is they weren't interested in the late 90's and their balance sheets went to hell after 2000.

i absolutely agree, when I lived in Chicago, I occasionally fly out of MDW, from the mid 90's to the early 2000(AA MDW-LGA and ATA MDW-LGA/JFK). I still fly into MDW a couple of times a year from SFO (on ATA). The airport has changed A LOT the past 10 years..and though its still considered "2nd class" and a "cheap airport" compared to ORD, the growth rate there has been phenomenal. AA and UA missed a golden opportunity a few years ago...

Quoting Midway7 (Reply 13):
fully functional 39 (I believe) gate facility capable of competing with ORD to a much greater extent.

most of your thoughts were correct, but I wouldn't go that far..especially given ORD's international capabilities....and MDW is a national airport..unlike LGW where many international travelers and carriers recognise it as London's 2nd airport

Quoting Frequentflykid (Reply 24):
besides people who find it easier to use one over the other or business people, they don't care if they use O'Hare or Midway. Cheap sells, obviously...

Actually, it depends on traffic...I lived in downtown chicago for 15 years and both took as much time...however, when traffic was bad on the Kennedy (I-90), it was really bad....since the blue and orange train lines go to ORD and MDW respectively, there really isn't an issue of commuting to ORD/MDW via public transportation and both take 30-40 by train.

also, to a certain extent, price does make a difference if one is going to either ORD or MDW...

it costs a lot of money to go via taxi from the north suburbs to MDW , and from the south suburbs to ORD, there is also the time factor and convenience factor..... I wouldn't be surprised if people from the north suburbs such as Highland Park, Lake Forest, Glencoe, etc. avoid MDW like the plague, and I wouldn't be surprised if people from Joliet, Kankakee, etc. avoid ORD...

Also, the North Suburbs are VERY wealthy suburbs, some of the wealthiest and affuluent in the United States...with homes worth in the tens of millions...for them a few hundred dollars isn't anything, and commuting all they way down to MDW wouldn't be considered something they would do...

maybe the next time I travel to MDW, I'll take a quick poll...

From personal experience, my ORD/MDW flight ratio is 9/1...and part of that is due to the fact my family only lives 20 minutes away from ORD and 60-90 minutes from MDW.

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 27):
There now is a lot of growth the Southwest toward Joliet. This area is more easily accessed from MDW but that vast majority of the flying public lives North and West.

Yup...AA and UA didn't do a good job of understanding the potential growth rate of the south/southwest suburbs......with some good work and intuition...they could have gotten a strong foothold in MDW.
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GalvanAir777
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:31 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 32):
I wouldn't be surprised if people from Joliet, Kankakee, etc. avoid ORD...

I wouldnt be so sure of that. Living in Joliet myself, We almost exclusively fly out of O'hare. Even when we lived nearly a stones throw away(Oak Lawn) from MDW we still flew from ORD.

People out here in Will County (Joliet/Plainfield area) DONT want the 3rd airport built out here. People in my neighboorhood say they'd rather fly out of ORD then MDW or the proposed 3RD Airport.


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sendMEtoLAS
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:12 pm

When UA added MDW-DEN service, I was dumbfounded. Why would a carrier that is already bleeding uncontrollably expose itself to the fare wars at MDW?
So now we have UA(er..sorry..Ted), TZ, and F9 offering non-stop service to DEN. I'm predicting cheap fares and red ink, lots of red ink.
I know this is only one route for a this very large carrier, but every penny counts when you are operating in bk mode.
I'm sure UA feels threatened with WN expanding at MDW and codesharing with TZ, but it just seems foolish for a carrier in the financial situation like UA's to act aggressively at a LCC airport like MDW.
 
jdaniel001
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:53 pm

Quoting SendMEtoLAS (Reply 34):
When UA added MDW-DEN service, I was dumbfounded. Why would a carrier that is already bleeding uncontrollably expose itself to the fare wars at MDW?

Connection opportunities with other TED flights maybe?

Quoting SendMEtoLAS (Reply 34):
I'm sure UA feels threatened with WN expanding at MDW and codesharing with TZ, but it just seems foolish for a carrier in the financial situation like UA's to act aggressively at a LCC airport like MDW.

UA has to protect its marketshare. I can quote hundreds of examples where an airline (against the odds) tried to protect marketshare and succeeded.
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jacobin777
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RE: What Are The Chances Of UAL Mainline To MDW

Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:14 am

Quoting GalvanAir777 (Reply 33):

I wouldnt be so sure of that. Living in Joliet myself, We almost exclusively fly out of O'hare. Even when we lived nearly a stones throw away(Oak Lawn) from MDW we still flew from ORD.

ok..i should have said "most people".......especially if there are flights from MDW to their destination...

Quoting GalvanAir777 (Reply 33):
People out here in Will County (Joliet/Plainfield area) DONT want the 3rd airport built out here. People in my neighboorhood say they'd rather fly out of ORD then MDW or the proposed 3RD Airport.

i'm totally against the 3rd airport....AA/UA are already against it, and I wouldn't be surprised if WN isn't to thrilled about that either...I think its all politics.......
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