IAHTowTeam
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CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:54 am

I heard a rumor and was just wondering if it was true? CO's ExpressJet only has 37 and 50 seat jets. Does anyone think they will order the 170's or 190's to fill the gap between 50 and 104 seats, COEX to CO??? Maybe someone on the Express side and fill us all in?
 
avek00
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:59 am

Unless the mainline pilots agreed to scope relief in the concessionary contract, ExpressJet cannot fly planes with 70+ seats for Continental.
Live life to the fullest.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:59 am

Continental CEO Larry Kellner stated at the FlyerTalk gathering earlier this month there are no plans for ExpressJet acquiring planes over 50 seats.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
IAHTowTeam
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:04 am

Does anybody think this is a stupid idea??? I mean...what about those markets that the 145's are flying in that could definitley handle more. More seats means more mainline traffic for CO and thus, more revenue. It is pure logic to me that something needs to be done. JetBlue just ordered 100 ERJ 190's(competition b/t EWR/JFK). It is a foolish move if CO doesn't do something. Besides, traffic is starting to become a problem in EWR, put a 190 on a couple of flights and replace a few 145's and you have more seats and less planes to add to the congestion. Is my thinking skewed on this?
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:06 am

there are even some COEX pilots who have made comments about aquiring some 170s..............even in our breakroom in terminal B someone had posted an article taken from EMBRAER about 10 orders for the 170.........who really knows until we see them in person.
 
AA737-823
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:09 am

IAHTowTeam asks "if my thinking skewed"
Not entirely, but here's my idea.
When demand exceeds the capacity of an ERJ, I think Conti is better off to throw in a 737. The operating costs are a lot lower for the 737 than for anything Embraer makes. It's just a function of more seats to spread costs over.
That's my theory.
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:12 am

the 735 costs us a lot of money to run....our most expensive aircraft to operate.
 
N766UA
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:15 am

A friend of mine is an ERJ captain out of CLE and his brother is an ERJ Captain out of IAH. They've both heard and repeated the rumor of getting the big EMBs, but it's only a rumor. I'll believe it when I see it.
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luv2fly
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:20 am

Think about it if you can easily fill a 50 seater with out having to discount heavily, then why add more seats that you would have to discount to sell.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
tinpusher007
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:20 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
The operating costs are a lot lower for the 737 than for anything Embraer makes. It's just a function of more seats to spread costs over.

...Only if the seats are filled.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
A friend of mine is an ERJ captain out of CLE and his brother is an ERJ Captain out of IAH. They've both heard and repeated the rumor of getting the big EMBs, but it's only a rumor. I'll believe it when I see it.

I've heard a rumor as well, but wouldn't Embraer have announced it already. I think it would've leaked by now. The simple fact is that the CAL ALPA scope clause doesn't allow it at this point.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
FlyHoss
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:26 am

The old and the new CAL pilot contract require that larger regional jets be flown by mainline pilots under most conditions. There may be some merit to having ERJ-170s or 190s, but there are also some negative aspects. ExpressJet could fly these larger ERJs if they didn't fly them to or from CAL hubs. As a CAL pilot, I'd at least like to have the opportunity to fly them, if CAL ordered them. The scope clause isn't designed to prohibit any airplane from being flown, it's designed to protect jobs for the mainline pilots (i.e. allow mainline pilots to fly those airplanes). Is there really any difference between an ERJ-170 or 190 and a DC-9-10 (similar number of seats, but not an Express airplane)?

[Edited 2005-04-19 01:27:32]
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
avek00
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:33 am

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 10):
As a CAL pilot, I'd at least like to have the opportunity to fly them, if CAL ordered them.

If anything, I'd expect CO to place 70+ seat small jets within mainline. Among other things, it'd lessen CO's costly dependency on ExpressJet going forward.
Live life to the fullest.
 
IAHTowTeam
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:46 am

If anything, I think we have done our aircraft ordering, for now. Expressjet will have to pick up the bill for these, if they want it and feel the need for it. Afterall, they are the ones with the money right now, why should we have to pick up the bill. I think there is some savings in operating a mainline fleet without a regional "attachment". When our contract runs out with ExpressJet, I thinnk in 2007, right?, we will be in the runnings to pick up other commuter traffic, that will help us out alot. We will also be able to stop paying for EVERY single flight that expressjet operates. That in itself is alot of cash out of our pocket, which wouldn't be so bad if we were still operating back when the fuel prices weren't so high and making a modest profit. Don't get me wrong, I think expressjet helps us out alot, but I also think we are somewhat cornered by their fleet. If we don't do something JetBlue is going to keep stealing market share away from us, especially in the NY area. They have plenty of room to grow at JFK, CO at EWR is very limited.
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:26 am

Whatever is being said, I think you'll see COEX eventually order the 170 and 190. There are certain markets, especially out of CLE where a 735 is too big, but a 145 is too small, and they just scream to have this aircraft on the routes: PVD, MHT, BTV, ATL, MCI, STL, and a few others.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:39 am

Wow...I'm surprised nobody's jumped on anyone for calling it an ERJ...it's an EMBRAER 190.  Wink

Anyway, is it possible that CO mainline would order them instead? It would make sense for one of the two to get some, as they would be excellent for certain routes.
 
avek00
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 14):
Anyway, is it possible that CO mainline would order them instead?

It's entirely possible that mainline could order them, provided CO can secure the necessary financing. The biggest issue would be reaching an agreement with the pilots on pay for a 70-seat jet, but that could likely be worked out with few hassles.
Live life to the fullest.
 
FlyHoss
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:04 pm

Falcon84,
Regarding (your) reply #13, the Scope clause (part 3 of chapter 1 of the new contract) specifically requires CAL (not ExpressJet) pilots to fly any jet larger than 50 seats to or from any CAL hub. Are there exceptions? Of course, for code share flights for example. If CAL were to allow ExpressJet to do so anyway, it would start a nasty and long legal battle, no doubt.
In theory, CAL pilots could fly the airplanes on ExpressJet's operating certificate, but I don't think that is likely.
The CAL ALPA Scope clause does not prevent ExpressJet from operating jets with more than 50 seats on flights that are not to or from a CAL hub (say, LGA to BOS...).
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:53 pm

so can you fly them out of LAX? if your saying they must be flown by mailine pilots if flown out of our hub?
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:44 pm

How about oredering CRJs 700/900? Aren't the big ERJs more expensive?
 
masseybrown
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:35 pm

CO isn't going to order them until they hear from COPA about first-hand experience with hard costs, dispatch reliability, real operating specs, etc.
 
bigb
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:37 pm

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 18):
How about oredering CRJs 700/900?

I love that this joke, lol, that was funny. I hope ya kidding
ETSN Baber, USN
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:12 pm

Probably not going to happen. I don't see Continental really needing aircraft of that size right now. Plus, in 2007 when the capacity purchase agreement with Expressjet expires, CAL will probably beat Express like a red-headed stepchild and bring in Chatauqua and/or some other low bidder with an already-established 70/90 seat program if they wanted to do that and could get around scope.

I just hope Expressjet finds ways to diversify itself before it becomes the next air wisconsin. Continental has almost completely severed itself from Expressjet at this point, and the stage is set for a bidding war in 2007. Ahhh well, such is life.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:25 pm

Although I cannot argue with KAUSpilot about the possible bidding war, I hope CO realizes that they have a good thing going in ExpressJet. I personally think that ExpressJet is one of the best regional airlines out there, and one of the reason's CO remains fairly popular among pax. CO would be making a huge mistake by getting rid of them.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:48 pm

yes we are in need of an aircraft in b/t the size of our 50 seat and 112 seat aircraft. that is to large of a difference in the amountof people we carry.
 
avek00
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:57 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 22):
I hope CO realizes that they have a good thing going in ExpressJet.

Not really - while XJT has very good service levels, the bottom line is that ExpressJet is costing CO an arm and a leg.
Live life to the fullest.
 
EMBQA
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:29 pm

Not really - while XJT has very good service levels, the bottom line is that ExpressJet is costing CO an arm and a leg.

How do you figure....??? First, ExpressJet is no longer part of Continental's fiscal numbers. and second, ExpressJet is the only part of the Continental family MAKING MONEY...and it has been that way for several years now.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
avek00
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:39 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 25):
How do you figure....??? First, ExpressJet is no longer part of Continental's fiscal numbers. and second, ExpressJet is the only part of the Continental family MAKING MONEY...and it has been that way for several years now.

Do you realize WHY ExpressJet makes money? It's because CO guarantees a 10% operating margin for ExpressJet, and also subsidizes much of its fuel costs.

And BTW, although XJT reports its figures separately, much of the company's financial data is incorporated into CO's figures as well, because CO retains substantial control of the XJT operation, even though it is now a minority shareholder.
Live life to the fullest.
 
IAHTowTeam
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:28 pm

It kind of makes since too...think about it. The contract with ExpressJet runs out in 2007....that is when Kellner said we would start making money again. Coincidence....I think not. Don't get me wrong...I think ExpressJet does alot for us but the contract is old and costs us too much!
 
EMBQA
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:38 pm

And BTW, although XJT reports its figures separately, much of the company's financial data is incorporated into CO's figures as well, because CO retains substantial control of the XJT operation, even though it is now a minority shareholder.

You'll need to clearify this one for me. In a world of WorldCom, Tyco Int. and cooked books from compnies.... No one in their right mind would do anything like that unless it was clearly spelled out in their earnings reports.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
avek00
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:58 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 28):
You'll need to clearify this one for me. In a world of WorldCom, Tyco Int. and cooked books from compnies.... No one in their right mind would do anything like that unless it was clearly spelled out in their earnings reports.

It's not cooked books at all.

ExpressJet is a standalone publicly-traded company, and therefore has to report its own numbers separately. However, since CO still substantially controls ExpressJet's capacity and operations, it is required to incorporate ExpressJet's figures into its financial statements.
Live life to the fullest.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:06 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 22):
I personally think that ExpressJet is one of the best regional airlines out there, and one of the reason's CO remains fairly popular among pax. CO would be making a huge mistake by getting rid of them.

The same was said for United and AWAC...look how that turned out.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: CO ExpressJet To Start ERJ 190's!?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:44 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 30):
The same was said for United and AWAC...look how that turned out.

It is sad indeed for AWAC. I'm afraid that after the possible reorganization of either UA or US, there will most likely be a regional carrier or two left out after the shuffle to fill contracts.

It is sad to see how things turned out for AWAC......but it will also be interesting to see how things turn out for UA.

Expressjet's only achiles heel is the lack of 70 seat equipment.

However, this puts them in a very bad situation. They can't go out and get 70 seat equipment because of CO's contract with them, but they may be discarded because they don't have it. I don't really know what they should do.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"