dutch122
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:53 pm

Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:41 pm

Just thas been released a few hours ago, Continental Airlines lost in the 1st Q $192 million dollars.

Have been trying to establish a link.

Think its pretty ok withe these exorbitant high fuel prices.

Dutch122
 
Falcon84
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:48 pm

http://money.cnn.com/services/ticker...nyw065.P1.04202005061302.19261.htm

Beat the estimates pretty handily, but still shows what fuel prices are doing to the industry. With the wage concessions in place, and with ticket prices firming a bit, hopefully the 2nd quarter will bring some better news.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
dutch122
Posts: 65
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:16 pm

Falcon84

Fuel prices this high indeed shows what impact it has on airlines in generall. Continental Airlines needed the wage concessions and all the other sacrifices from their personnel, think the sky is going to shine a brighter soon. 2nd quarter is going to be better for Continental Airlines that's for sure.
This 1st Q loss surprised me also, I honestly thought that it was going be more.
So let's wait what the other major US airlines have been doing.

Dutch122
 
TACAA320
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:54 pm

Wowww that's a bunch of greens.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
padcrasher
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:23 pm

They are now producing the the same margins as Southwest without the hedging. A 7.6% loss margin this Quarter compared to Southwest's 2.9%. But CO enacted 418 Million in pay cuts effective 4/1. That would have given them a 3.6% loss margin. And had the flight attendents gone along they would have had a loss margin a smidgen less than Southwest. It's all uphill from here.
 
kl911
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:28 pm

It's still not an excuse, those fuelprices. In Europe and Asia those prices are the same, and carriers make profits. There is something very wrong with the US aviation industry. It would be better to continue with 3 or 4 carriers, not 15. I can't think of any country in the world with so many carriers.

Now there are so many carriers that everybody competes against everybody and looses a lot of money.

KL911
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:46 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 5):
It's still not an excuse, those fuelprices. In Europe and Asia those prices are the same, and carriers make profits.

I might be wrong, but i believe the 'euro-legacies' are in trouble as well... BA AF etc, its the LCCs just like here that are making the money

TWA902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
redflyer
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:46 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 5):
It would be better to continue with 3 or 4 carriers, not 15. I can't think of any country in the world with so many carriers.

Keep in mind the load factors for those 15 carriers are very high. Meaning the demand is certainly there. However, I do agree with your statement about having less carriers. I think the industry is heading for a shakeout. My guess is that the next 18 months will be a watershed. All these carriers are causing too much competition so no one can raise prices.

As a follow-on to your comment, what are the pricing structures like in Europe and Asia? I mean, are ticket prices comparable to here in the U.S. or are they generally higher, which allows for higher margins? Although I travel to Europe and Asia a few times each year, I've flown directly to my destinations so I haven't seen what intra-travel ticket prices are like.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 5):
It's still not an excuse, those fuelprices.

Right. Fuel prices going from $30 a barrel to over $50 a barrel, and the costs passed along to the airlines, that's no excuse at all. Right. OK. Sure.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
padcrasher
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 5):
In Europe and Asia those prices are the same

But the Euro rise against the Dollar has negated alot of the damage fuel prices do to European carriers.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:57 pm

Well on a bright note the loss is considerably less than DL's!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
AA737-823
Posts: 4898
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:58 pm

Come on, Conti, you can do it.
Man, they sure need some 787s to take advantage of that fuel efficiency.  spin 

Leave it to KL911 to smash America no matter what our news.
You don't know of any other country with this many carriers? I don't know of any other country with this many people flying. Let me qualify that- I don't know of any other FREE country with this many people flying. China's aviation industry is more regulated than ours ever was. And Japan has too small a land mass to sustain more than 3 or so carriers.
Hey- don't flame, it's relevant.
And the price of fuel is not the issue- it's the increase. IF YOUR precious KLM had to pay 30% more next month, I daresay you'd be whining your European hiney all the way to the bankruptcy judge.

All in good humor, none meant to insult.
 
satx
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:04 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 5):
It would be better to continue with 3 or 4 carriers, not 15.

Screw that. I prefer to have lots of choices and cheap tickets. Apparently, so do most Americans; A.nutters notwithstanding. Wait until we are left with a total of 3 or 4 carriers across the entire nation and possibly $750 - 1000 coach tickets. Then people will be complaining about the high prices and lack of competition. The US is a huge country (both in land area and population) and having only 3 or 4 carriers would not provide adequate competition IMO. Besides, many markets in the US are already dominated by only one or two carriers with minor service from maybe another half-dozen. Relatively few markets have anything like 15 carriers with regular mainline service. When you’re ready to ante-up for my tickets, then you can complain that I have too many choices. Until then, backup your statement with something other than the 'competition is bad for America' mantra of the weathly elite.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
kl911
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7):
As a follow-on to your comment, what are the pricing structures like in Europe and Asia? I mean, are ticket prices comparable to here in the U.S. or are they generally higher, which allows for higher margins?

I'lm sure they are higher. ( Unless you fly LCC's) Plus, EU carriers don't fly to every little town in the state. It's quit common to travel 2 or 3 hours to reach an Airport with decent service. ( That's for leisure, there are ofcourse some routes aimed at business guys, but very expensive)

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Right. Fuel prices going from $30 a barrel to over $50 a barrel, and the costs passed along to the airlines, that's no excuse at all. Right. OK. Sure.

It's not an excuse since most European and Asian carriers are making profits.

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 6):
I might be wrong, but i believe the 'euro-legacies' are in trouble as well... BA AF etc, its the LCCs just like here that are making the money

Your'e wrong, KL/AF for example made a large profit.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:40 am

The EU carriers are just starting to go through a similar shakeout as the USA, as the LCCs are expanding there. Just look at SN, Swiss, AZ, Olympic.... Their domestic revenues are coming under severe pressures as Easyjet and Ryanair etc. take hold.

One advantage the EU will have in their future consolidation is that the EU bankruptcy laws are less liberal than the US laws. Their carriers will not be able to hide in re-organization for an extended period with entrenched management. This means that the carriers will liquidate or merge much more quickly, as can be seen in the cases of SN and LX.
 
dutch122
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 5):
It's still not an excuse, those fuelprices. In Europe and Asia those prices are the same, and carriers make profits.

Do not agree, € is stronger then $, so European carriers spent percentage wise less on fuel, correct me if wrong.
And recently BA & AF/KL & LH announced again fuel surcharges, because at this moment European carriers feel the after affect the fuel prices.Because they are running low on their reserves.

AF-KL made a profit on Internationally flights especially to China India and Africa, but almost certain European flights there is almost no profit.
And do not forget that LH,AF/KL, AY & BA fly to destinations like China and India etc, that still have to be granted to most of the US Carriers, that´s why.

Wait till the LCC go Transatlantic, this wil happen in the near future that´s for sure, then also in Europe some big carriers will have some problems.

regards

Dutch122
 
satx
Posts: 2771
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 14):
EU bankruptcy laws are less liberal than the US laws

Bankruptcy has its purpose. However, with conservative fundamentalists dominating the executive, legislative, and soon the judicial branches, we will quickly see sharp new curbs on personal bankruptcies while corporate bankruptcies will be left with their current incredibly liberal terms. It's important to note that the majority of personal bankruptcies are brought on through unexpected loss of employment and/or high medical bills from sudden injuries or ailments. Corporate bankruptcies, though, are largely the result of years or decades of risky management and shady bookkeeping. Is this a fair and even-handed position for our nation? American adults are too busy watching television programs written for a 5th grade audience to even notice this could be considered an issue.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
WAH64D
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:24 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 6):
I might be wrong, but i believe the 'euro-legacies' are in trouble as well... BA AF etc, its the LCCs just like here that are making the money

TWA902

I don't agree with your statement. BA are doing just fine.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
redflyer
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 16):
It's important to note that the majority of personal bankruptcies are brought on through unexpected loss of employment and/or high medical bills from sudden injuries or ailments.

In the future, you should back up such a broad statement with facts because it is not true. While some BKs occur because of loss of job or medical condition the truth is the vast majority of personal BKs in the U.S. are the result of easy credit (e.g., the ability to spend far beyond one's limits).

Now, kindly remove your politics from your sleeve and let's get back to talking about the topic at hand.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1376
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:52 am

Man, they are sooooo close. They still have $1.3 billion in cash.

Some interesting notes from reading the financial statement:

(1) The fuel burn increase greatly lags the increase in ASM. This is good news.

(2) The year over year fuel-constant CASM was pretty good.

(3) Utlilization went up. A lot. How much higher can it go?

(3) The consolidated load factor was pretty darn good, at 76.8%. How much higher can it realistically get without adding flights or aircraft?

In other words, it seems to me they have just about maxed out the revenue side of the income statement, aside from seeing fares increase industry-wide OR cutting truly unprofitable routes. That leaves the cost side of the equation. The pay cuts weren't retroactive, right? If not, then we will see a bigger impact to the Q2 bottom line due to employee costs.

If they can get any additional load factor in Q2 and Q3, we might actually see profitability. What's holding up a renegotiation of their 735 leases?
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
kl911
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting Dutch122 (Reply 15):
Wait till the LCC go Transatlantic, this wil happen in the near future that´s for sure, then also in Europe some big carriers will have some problems.

Will never happen. LCC's rely on a lot of shorthaul trips per day, with quick turnaround time. Longhaul costs will be the same as the other carriers, so no LCC there.
 
thomasphoto60
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 20):
Will never happen. LCC's rely on a lot of shorthaul trips per day, with quick turnaround time. Longhaul costs will be the same as the other carriers, so no LCC there.

Agreed, Laker and People Express tried it in the late 70s and early 80s and it judt didn't work.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
piedmontnut
Posts: 76
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:59 am

I thought AF was doing just fine. Am I in error?
May the A380 arrive @ MCO in the near future.
 
satx
Posts: 2771
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 18):
In the future, you should back up such a broad statement with facts because it is not true.

Yes, I probably should have included some sort of corroborating data in my post. We all know that many posts state opinions as facts without having any basis in reality. Those who know what they're talking about only do their cause a disservice when they fail to include at least a link to additional resources, including yourself.

As for my stated position, I first heard these sorts of statistics on NPR, but since I can't cut and paste audio tracks as easily as text, here is an excerpt in a similar vein from msnbc.com:

BOSTON - Costly illnesses trigger about half of all personal bankruptcies, and most of those who go bankrupt because of medical problems have health insurance, according to findings from a Harvard University study to be released Wednesday.

Illness and medical bills were cited as the cause, at least in part, for 46.2 percent of the personal bankruptcies in the study. Himmelstein said the figure rose to 54.5 percent when three other factors were counted as medical-related triggers for bankruptcies: births, deaths and pathological gambling addiction.


Click here for the rest of the article on msnbc.com

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 18):
While some BKs occur because of loss of job or medical condition the truth is the vast majority of personal BKs in the U.S. are the result of easy credit (e.g., the ability to spend far beyond one's limits).

Now, you may disagree with the link I provided, but until you provide your own content to backup your own position, your post is no better than mine was. In all honesty, there's no specific reason we can't both be right. Unexpected loss of employment and/or high medical bills coupled with a few high-interest credit cards can be a recipe for disaster in many households.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
Indy
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:15 am

RedFlyer.. with the exception of getting back on topic your statement was completely wrong. The evidence SATX posted tells the story. But as you said.. back on topic  Smile
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:17 am

Quoting Dutch122 (Reply 2):
Continental Airlines needed the wage concessions and all the other sacrifices from their personnel,

Why should the CO employees have to subsidize fuel prices? They should be passed on to the consumers just like at the pump.... Do the UPS and Fed-Ex drivers have to take a pay cut for the high fuel costs?? I don't think so, but everybody only thinks Airline front-line employees should take it in the shorts..... And if you have never worked for an Airline, you just wouldn't understand!! (I don't want to hear "the management" problem scenario, I'm talking about fuel prices only!)

mtnman
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
redflyer
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:49 am

I can't let it go without answering, but I promise this is the end of it (and then back on topic). And maybe I'll toss in a relationship to this forum in order to get it back on topic.

I prefer to use hard government facts and studies (http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/press/articles/abi01sepnumbers.pdf) over NPR, which is highly biased with a very liberal bent, as well as the statements of someone who is politically oriented and shamelessly exhibits those traits in a forum that should be polically neutral. Having stated that, there is a distinct difference in the argument over what is the CORE cause of bankruptcy and what is the factor that TRIGGERS it.

By way of example, if one's debt ratio is far and away higher than their income level, simply because they incur a job loss does not mean that the bankruptcy is BECAUSE of the job loss. It simply means the job loss pushed them over the precarious financial edge they were ALREADY ON. The fact is, they had no business carrying a high debt-load and were irresponsible for doing so. We should all expect and PLAN to be unemployed for a short period of time. If we don't (e.g., save for a rainy day) then to say it is caused by job loss is not addressing the real point, which is financial irresponsibility.

Which goes to my point: BKs are caused PRIMARILY by easy credit (high debt to income ratios) and not by medical or job loss. If you took out the bozos who don't save for a rainy day, you'd find the actual BKs that are caused by medical (catastrophic medical condition) or loss of employment (unemployed for more than 3 - 6 months) in situations where the person saved and followed sensible rules, are a much smaller percentage.

Now, back to the topic of airliners...using the above analysis, I think the same could be said for airlines. The boards and corporate executives of many airlines handle their corporate finances irresponsibly or, at a minimum, in a risky fashion. For airlines to whine about the high price of fuel is a way for them to dodge the real issue, which is they didn't forecast and budget responsibly. Personally, I read an article back in 1998 that forewarned of the coming surge in fuel prices - to over $50/bbl - and it predicted the time (c. 2001) and the reason (runaway demand from China's and India's booming economies). They only missed the target date by a few years because they didn't foresee 9/11 and the ensuing recession. Even without that prophetic article (I wish I had saved it or could remember where I saw it), there has been enough written in the media and copious amounts talked about by economists within the last couple of years to know that fuel is going to become very expensive, certainly much more than it has been.

When I see the likes of CO or DL whine about the "unexpected high price of jet fuel", especially when their forecasts aren't even one year old, what I read between the lines is "S***, we f***ed up!"

Have a nice day.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 20):
LCC's rely on a lot of shorthaul trips per day, with quick turnaround time

Might want to tell that to WN, who are moving to longer and longer routes to keep cost down.
 
kdeg00
Posts: 133
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:13 am

Don't know if anyone noticed, but the quote by SATX was from MSNBC, not NPR. Going on a liberal-bashing rampage is fun and all, but you might as well pay attention to the source. Any high school journalism student can tell you that MSNBC is not "liberal" or "left leaning", but much closer to FOX NEWS in style and bent. Oh, and by the way, ask yourself who commissioned the DOJ studies. Was it by any chance a govt. group that has been lobbied for a change in personal bankruptcy law?

Now, back to the topic. How does the CO loss fit in with the other U.S. legacies for the same quarter? My gut impression is that if CO is doing relatively well with a loss of this size we are going to see some big shke-outs from the other biggies when we get to the end of Q2.
 
coa764
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:32 am

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:26 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 28):
If anything, I'm a little miffed that a major carrier hasn't folded yet.

I can't .. No actually I can believe that some of you people are nothing but a bunch of wild eye vultures impatiently circling for the fall of an airline. The fact that you 'miffed' a business hasn't collapsed astounds me, is your life that incomplete without sidelining off the misery of others. I can imagine the excitement of this forum when the breaking news about an airline chapter 7 hits and the mad dash to be the first one to post the big news while licking your chops over then following weeks of fallout to post your theories about what is going to happen next. If coat tailing the misery of others really gets your blood moving then head on over to the BBC news site and have your fill on their Africa section. Wishing for the demise of an airline might be your bag but remember that the industry you, or your parents, are in could and can get hit with the same issues and I am willing to bet you will not have the same amount of impatient enthusiasm about that chapter 7 filing..
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:47 am

Amen, ContnlEliteCMH! I need say no more.

Quoting Kdeg00 (Reply 29):
Don't know if anyone noticed, but the quote by SATX was from MSNBC, not NPR.

SATX originally referenced as a source NPR. He just wasn't able to transfer the media to here. With regards to MSNBC, you must be an extreme "liberal" yourself because you wouldn't say they are otherwise. You should never reference any media organization as "liberal" or "conservative" and try to use that in order to butress any point you're trying to make.

Quoting Kdeg00 (Reply 29):
Oh, and by the way, ask yourself who commissioned the DOJ studies.

At least when it comes to a DOJ study, people are held accountable and the entire process is auditable. I can't say the same for a decision some "liberal" lacky may have made at NPR or MSNBC just because he or she didn't like the outcome of the last election.

This forum shouldn't be used to advance one political view over another, liberal, conservative, or otherwise. I'd correct a "conservative" just as strongly if they made a blanket and INCORRECT statement like SATX did. Frankly, SATX should be reprimanded for making such blatant and shameless statements in his original post to advance his political views.

In aviation, there is no room for for politics. There is even less room for factually bereft comments.

Quoting Kdeg00 (Reply 29):
How does the CO loss fit in with the other U.S. legacies for the same quarter? My gut impression is that if CO is doing relatively well with a loss of this size we are going to see some big shke-outs from the other biggies when we get to the end of Q2.

Personally, I think CO will show a profit by the end of Q2. I think any carrier that is on the financial edge and which doesn't show material improvement by the end of Q2 will be in big trouble. Unless the economy slows appreciably, I think they should all show improvement and, in the case of CO, head into the black.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 28):
Let's take Continental. They claim they are drowning in the lease rates on the 735's, which would be no problem if they weren't seeing high fuel prices and low yields. Here's what I want to know. If the lease rates are so high right now, how were they a good idea when incepted? Did they gameplan this for high fuel prices, low yields, and terrorism? It would appear not. Is Continental a victim? Nope. They must live with the choices they make.

You know, the confluence of factors acting these days against CO et al is, essentially, a worst case scenario for the industry. Yeah, it could be worse, but not by much. Those 735 and their leases may have been a perfectly valid or even a good business decision at the time they were signed; that those lease rates are too high now doesn't make CO a victim or stupid, it just means that they were wrong. They took a chance and they were hit by a combination of factors that no one could have predicted.

It reads to me like you're advocating a gameplan for every possible contingency. That sounds like it could be as bad an idea as doing the opposite. For CO (for example) not to pursue an opportunity to expand because, well, maybe ten years down the road civilian aircraft are turned into missiles and DL is starting price war on walk-up-fares and Saudi production capacity is maxed out and Chinese oil demand is growing double digits every year and ... well, you get the idea. But for them to turn down every opportunity to expand and/or compete and to instead sock away capital for a rainy day because some combination of factors might arise that could conceivably put them out of business ... Eh, doesn't seem very smart to me either. Enterprise is inherently risky. You know that. And surely you're not advocating the extreme conservatism I'm describing. But I'm hard pressed to see how you could be advocating anything else and not cognizant that maybe at the time those 735 leases were an objectively "good" business decision.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 28):
If anything, I'm a little miffed that a major carrier hasn't folded yet. In my mind, so long as the money to keep them going is from creditors, then they deserve to go on. Otherwise, they should pay the consequences of their actions.

Your a jerk-
It's soooo nice that you have the solution to EVERY problem by doing what YOU think is right.....Some people do make critical mistakes when they spend money they don't have- BUT, many Airline employees have been around many, many years when it was still a career that had some glamour, and a hope of retirement. They don't have a choice of what has happened to the economy with useless wars, management woes, corporate fraud, 9/11, etc. You need to walk in an Airline front-line employees shoes and see what it is like now from how it was many years back- And I'm not just talking pay cuts and layoffs- I'm talking about jerks like you who want EVERYTHING when you fly for NOTHING!!! You better hope and pray to God that your job is something that could never go away... But other than the Government, I know nothing that safe !!!
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:00 am

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 30):
I can't .. No actually I can believe that some of you people are nothing but a bunch of wild eye vultures impatiently circling for the fall of an airline.

Speaking only for myself, I'm not a "wild eye" vulture impatiently circling for the fall of an airline. Frankly I'm impatiently waiting for the financial fall of many airlines.

And do you know why? It's not because my life is incomplete without the misery of others. Rather, my life is incomplete because when I decide I need to go from Point A to Point B, I can't go in a straight line. I usually have to go in an indirect fashion, and I have to do it in the most uncomfortable of manners because I'm stuffed into a tight space. And I have to put up with rude and uncaring employees.

And I have to pay exhorbitant prices because I am a REPEAT customer! Any other business model would treat me with more respect and give me a better deal for all the repeat business I bring them. Instead, I have to put up with the same B.S. that a guy next to me does, and he's going to fly the airline once in his lifetime for 1/6 the price whereas I'm going to fly the same airline (and others like it) over 100,000 miles in any 12 month period. (FYI, I fly over 200,000 miles each year; this year I'm on track to break the 250k mark).

No, I'm EAGERLY looking forward to the financial demise of several carriers. Not because I salivate at others' misery but, rather, because I salivate at the end of my own.

When several of the legacy carriers in business today go the way of Eastern and Pan Am, in my opinion, it will open the door to REAL competition (not just on price alone) and, most important of all, BETTER SERVICE! It's already happening. I will fly JetBlue and Southwest any day over one of the legacy carriers. If only those two went to all the destinations I need to go to!

Happy flying.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 33):
Your a jerk-

I can see being a "First Class Member" on a.net means nothing with regards to the caliber of person.

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 33):
many Airline employees have been around many, many years when it was still a career that had some glamour, and a hope of retirement. They don't have a choice of what has happened to the economy with useless wars, management woes, corporate fraud, 9/11, etc.

Actually, they did - and continue - to have a choice. It's called career change. Don't like what's happening to your employer? Leave. Don't like what you see happening in your industry? migrate into something else.

Worried about your financial future? Do something about it. But don't sit there and milk dry a bleeding entity.

In the business world, it's called "Evolve or die". That is why the legacies are bleeding red like crazy. Their business model has not evolved in almost 30 years. The hub-and-spoke system and its associated high costs are a relic of a long ago - and inefficient - era.

If you don't evolve, your business - and your job - is going to go the way of the dinasaur.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:26 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 35):
-

I can see being a "First Class Member" on a.net means nothing with regards to the caliber of person

Wishing that thousands of people lose their jobs???? What else would you call it???

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 35):

Actually, they did - and continue - to have a choice. It's called career change. Don't like what's happening to your employer? Leave. Don't like what you see happening in your industry? migrate into something else

How long have you lived in the USA? Read the news at all? Seen how many great Wal-Mart careers there are out there? I like my job- always have. It just gets old with all you "Armchair Airline employees" thinking you have all the solutions. Even with a College education, a good job is hard to come by. Count your blessings if you get to 50 and still have a career and retirement, and are not out looking for the Greeter job at your friendly Wal-Mart to support your children's' College education!

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 34):
Rather, my life is incomplete because when I decide I need to go from Point A to Point B, I can't go in a straight line

Try flying an Airline that can do what you are complaining about- I'm sure somebody can...

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 34):
I have to do it in the most uncomfortable of manners because I'm stuffed into a tight space. And I have to put up with rude and uncaring employees

That's just a cop-out- There are MANY great employees at all the Airlines, and bad ones too.... Flew WN last weekend- One of the F/A's was in a bad mood... It happens, even at WN! But, I don't judge the whole Airline by 1 or 2 employees. I can tell by your post that no matter what, you are just not a happy flier, and you probably complain and make EVERYBODY around you miserable... But that's everybody else's fault, isn't it???
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
satx
Posts: 2771
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:36 am

Personally, I think airlines like United are getting a bit too much help with their ever-expanding holiday from debt, indirectly at taxpayer's expense thanks to all the government bureaucracy that's now in the decision chain. The sooner the government turns down these repeated requests for more time the quicker United will begin the kind of massive restructuring that's needed for long-term stability in what could be a rather harsh future. Even though I enjoy the spoils of all this competition, I also realize that the US airline market is running with a few sickly beasts that could be slowing the whole pack down. Maybe it's time to let them fend for themselves for the good of the herd.

---------

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 26):
but I promise this is the end of it

Is that just another way of saying "I want the last word?"

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 26):
I prefer to use hard government facts and studies...over NPR, which is highly biased with a very liberal bent,

1. Government data is hardly immune from bias
2. NPR has a liberal bent, but is still fair to conservative views
3. If you want "very liberal" you should try salon.com
4. If you want "highly biased" you should try FOX NEWS
5. You are currently contradicting the AP-MSNBC article, not NPR

Try to keep up with who you're bashing and why.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 26):
as well as the statements of someone who is politically oriented and shamelessly exhibits those traits

Political orientation is a little like sexual orientation; anyone who declines they have one is probably lying.

As for 'shameless political orientation,' please look up Tom Delay

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 26):
Having stated that, there is a distinct difference in the argument over what is the CORE cause of bankruptcy and what is the factor that TRIGGERS it.

Look, even if I go along with your conservative rhetoric that sounds like it came strait from a credit card company, your view is still lacking of logic and reason. Your approval of drastic restrictions on future bankruptcies for individuals does nothing to solve the problem; it only places heavier burdens on the consumers who are caught in the middle. Why are you so absolutely convinced that punishing consumers is the exclusive answer?

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 26):
Which goes to my point: BKs are caused PRIMARILY by easy credit (high debt to income ratios) and not by medical or job loss.

There is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing in the non-link you provided to even begin substantiating your position or repudiating mine.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 26):
(catastrophic medical condition) or loss of employment (unemployed for more than 3 - 6 months) in situations where the person saved and followed sensible rules, are a much smaller percentage.

Where are these percentages to which you refer and what are they based on? There are four links in this post, helping readers investigate my views for themselves. So far I have seen nothing of relevance in return.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
kdeg00
Posts: 133
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:41 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 31):
SATX originally referenced as a source NPR

No, SATX mentioned that he had heard an article on NPR. He "referenced" an article from MSNBC. As far as politicizing an argument, I agree with you in that I wish we could all look objectively at issues all the time, butg realistically we all have biases and opinions that flavor our viewpoint. expressing those biases/viewpoints simply and without an accusatory tone would go a long way to helping someone with a disparate viewpoint understand the point trying to be made. your kneejerk view of me as an "extreme liberal" might be balanced by a snap decicion on my part that you are an extreme reactionary. That, however, would probably make both of us wrong.

Now, if CO can show a profit by the end of Q2, can any other majors do the same? Are you thinking that it's a matter of CO, DL, and AA surviving, NW on the bubble and UA and US going down?
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:46 am

Quoting Kdeg00 (Reply 38):
Are you thinking that it's a matter of CO, DL, and AA surviving, NW on the bubble and UA and US going down?

Actually, I would put Delta on the bubble before Northwest as they own so many of their A/C and can afford to park them without making payments if they have to.....

mtnman
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
How long have you lived in the USA?

My entire life.

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
Read the news at all?

All the time. I'm just smart enough to know what's factual and what's hyperbole.

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
Seen how many great Wal-Mart careers there are out there?

Actually, I hear the management jobs at Wal-Mart are pretty decent. But I wouldn't know for sure: when I think of a career change, Wal-Mart is not exactly what comes to my mind.

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
I like my job- always have.

Is it because you really like what you do or because your airline employer cannot break its union contracts (contracts that were more appropriate for the labor markets of 40+ years ago) and you've now gotten accustomed to the cushy benefits? Benefits that you're not willing to give up in order to migrate into another, better (?) career.

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
"Armchair Airline employees" thinking you have all the solutions.

I never considered myself to have the "solution" to what ails an industry. Rather, I have the ability - from the fact that I put myself back through school in order to better myself in another career - to predict what will happen if an ailing industry doesn't change.

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
Count your blessings if you get to 50 and still have a career and retirement,

I count my blessings everyday when I wake up and I'm still alive and I still have my family and I still have the ability to choose my own destiny.

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
and are not out looking for the Greeter job at your friendly Wal-Mart to support your children's' College education!

As I said before, Wal-Mart is not my first choice when it comes to deciding how to support my family or my children's college education. Why are you fixated on Wal-Mart? Have you been watching and listening to too many NPR reports like SATX?

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
Try flying an Airline that can do what you are complaining about- I'm sure somebody can...

I do, every chance I get, which isn't always that often. But as soon as some of these legacy carriers breath their last and allow the new breed to take over their landing slots and gates then I'm sure eventually I'll be able to fly them more often.

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
That's just a cop-out- There are MANY great employees at all the Airlines, and bad ones too...

There are. But at the legacies, they seem to be outnumbered far and away by the bad ones.

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
Flew WN last weekend- One of the F/A's was in a bad mood... It happens, even at WN!

Yup, I've encountered them as well. But the difference is, at WN they are the exception and not the rule.

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
I don't judge the whole Airline by 1 or 2 employees. I can tell by your post that no matter what, you are just not a happy flier, and you probably complain and make EVERYBODY around you miserable

I don't either. You're making an assumption here about me; someone you don't know (and hopefully never will).

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 36):
But that's everybody else's fault, isn't it???

On the contrary, I thought the same about you when I started reading your posts. You blame everyone else for your current predicament.

In closing, unlike you, I feel no hostility towards you. I rather enjoy a good, spirited debate and in a way, I feel sorry for your situation. Not much, though. But I do hope things work out for you in your career. Good luck.

Regards,

RedFlyer
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
satx
Posts: 2771
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 28):
But don't worry about SATX. He's part of a new breed of liberals seething with rage and hatred

Isn't it strange that while I'm "seething with rage and hatred," I'm also the only one who's showing any compassion for American consumers? Something doesn't add up here... I think it's your logic.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 28):
who can't tolerate dissent without calling their opponents "evil." Perhaps he's Fidel Castro masquerading as an A.nut.

I did a quick search for the word "evil" and it turns out that the only example in this thread was your post.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1376
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:55 am

You guys are reading waaaaay too much into my statement that I'm miffed. My reasons have nothing to do with wanting an airline to fail. Good grief. Can any airline employee have a dispassionate discussion about the state of the industry in which they work? That same industry to which I will pay between $10k and $15k *this year alone*? I'm seriously beginning to wonder. I also think that some of you need to look up the definition of "miffed."

I'm miffed because I'm not sure I can recall any industry losing so much money for so long, and not having any major players fold. We've seen the auto industry lose a lot of money, really fast. But the auto industry completely dwarfs the airline industry, and there were some notable mergers as the larger companies bought smaller. Ford's takeover and overhaul of Jaguar springs to mind. Jaguar was headed for the scrap heap. Ford has put more money into them then they will admit.

I'm miffed because there is *so* *much* negative shareholder equity. Look at Delta. I'm miffed because players like Delta have managed to stay afloat by generating cash from debt, which at some point is an inherently unsustainable trade. I'm also miffed at the length of the bankruptcy stays by both US and UA.

Again, for those who have trouble separating head from heart, this is a *dispassionate* view point. I own no airline stock (thankfully). I do not work for any airline. If the airline which I patronize folds, I know there are others. And I'm a business owner. I would like to think I can cut my losses at some point, but you never know for sure until you go through it.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 40):

In closing, unlike you, I feel no hostility towards you. I rather enjoy a good, spirited debate and in a way, I feel sorry for your situation. Not much, though. But I do hope things work out for you in your career. Good luck

I can appreciate that- Like you, I just want to support my family and enjoy my life. I can guarantee you that if you flew on a flight I was working, you would enjoy the service, as I DO enjoy my job- for the job itself.....

BTW- I don't listen to NPR!!!!  Wink

Take care-

mtnman
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:17 pm

Quoting N844AA (Reply 32):
You know, the confluence of factors acting these days against CO et al is, essentially, a worst case scenario for the industry. Yeah, it could be worse, but not by much.

I dispute that it's a worst case. Actually, it could be faaaar worse for CO. They could have trouble with labor relations, and not get the concessions they require. Their consolidated load factor for the first quarter of 2005 was very, very good; things would be much, much worse if the load factor wasn't so high.

Let's take stock.

On the one hand, fuel prices are sky high. On the other, Continental's fleet is fuel efficient and fairly streamlined. If you'll read their Q1 statement, you'll see that their fuel consumption lags their growth by a healthy amount. Imagine if they had a fleet full of leased gas hogs, or gas hogs they owned but were using as collateral for debt. It could be far worse.

On the one hand, airfares are low. On the other hand, their planes are full, for both mainline and ExpressJet. Imagine if airfares were low *and* they had a crappy load factor. It could be far worse.

And I'm not suggesting they should gameplan for the most conservative approach. Risk *is* part of business; I agree, and I know it personally. But let's say that the present confluence of factors is truly unforeseeable, or at least was so unprobable as to be ignored. So what? Does this mean that Continental should be free from the consequences of the decisions which have led to today's problems? If so, how do you justify that?

THAT is my point. Unfortunate things happen to many people, but some people benefit from better decisions than others. I'm comfortable with that. I hope that CO returns to profitability soon, though I can't quite see how. The load factor realistically can't get much higher. Fuel isn't going to get much lower. And until something changes, it will be difficult to improve yields.

Still, if something happens in the industry, I may actually buy some stock. I fly Continental four segments per week. I really think they're the best thing around.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
redflyer
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Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:21 pm

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 43):
I can guarantee you that if you flew on a flight I was working, you would enjoy the service, as I DO enjoy my job- for the job itself.....

Given your passion in your posts, I realize you do love your job and that I would enjoy the service. Right on!

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 43):
BTW- I don't listen to NPR!!!!

I knew a.net didn't let just ANYONE become a platinum member!  bigthumbsup 
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 44):
And I'm not suggesting they should gameplan for the most conservative approach. Risk *is* part of business; I agree, and I know it personally. But let's say that the present confluence of factors is truly unforeseeable, or at least was so unprobable as to be ignored. So what? Does this mean that Continental should be free from the consequences of the decisions which have led to today's problems? If so, how do you justify that?

THAT is my point. Unfortunate things happen to many people, but some people benefit from better decisions than others. I'm comfortable with that. I hope that CO returns to profitability soon, though I can't quite see how. The load factor realistically can't get much higher. Fuel isn't going to get much lower. And until something changes, it will be difficult to improve yields.

I think we're largely in agreement in that. I was primarily trying to argue that a rational or even an objectively good business decision (whatever that might be, if such a beast exists) can still lead to ruin. I wasn't advocating some kind of clemency plan for airlines that got screwed by circumstance (aka, ATSB.)

But like I said, I think we're probably in agreement on this. It'll be interesting to see which of the legacies can claw their way back into profitability. AMR is getting close, and if I had to bet on one of them making it out, I think they might be able to pull it off. Though they're constrained in many of the ways CO is, and I have to imagine they've trimmed most of the fat that's worth trimming.

Either way the legacies ultimately go, they'll make for an interesting case study one of these days  Wink
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:28 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 41):
Isn't it strange that while I'm "seething with rage and hatred," I'm also the only one who's showing any compassion for American consumers? Something doesn't add up here... I think it's your logic.

Well, at least you admit that you are full of hatred. That will earn you exactly one half more brownie point than the zero your fellow libs get from me.

What is compassion for the American consumer, really?

You can say that it's ensuring they are protected from eeeevvvviiiiilllll big business. But why would you want to protect them from their employers, and from the producers of so many goods that they buy, cheaply and with high quality?

You can say that it's ensuring that they are never allowed to fail (e.g. -- bankruptcy due to medical calamity). But at whose expense? If you have a medical calamity that costs $500,000, and the insurance pays 80% of it, they've paid $400,000. What about the people who make their living at that insurer? You would gladly "protect the consumer" while lining others up at the firing squad for the crime of working for a business you despise in an industry upon whom you misplace blame.

More along the lines of "no failures"... How many American consumers own stock? Millions. So, how do you protect them? I'm sure you'd advocate a set of rules that "protects" them when they buy, at the expense of their investments. No sooner than you have torpedoed their interest-bearing savings, you'll be the first to cry that personal retirement savings are a sham, and that it should all be federalized.

Your game is easy to see through. Business (e.g. -- airlines like Continental and Delta) is impersonal to you, depsite the fact that business cannot exist without people. No, your form of compassion is not compassion at all.

I know it's tough to swallow, particularly for those of you who may work for an airline, but failure is good for our economy. It's the way that the free market promotes long term success. Failure creates opportunity for somebody else, and if we believe that Continental can return to success through improved yields, this may be the best and most direct way to do it. If they can't make money, they will fail, and they *should* fail, once the cash and their creditor's good graces are gone.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
satx
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:59 pm

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 47):
Well, at least you admit that you are full of hatred.

Um, no, there was no admission of a falsehood on my part. Try again troll.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 47):
But why would you want to protect them from their employers, and from the producers of so many goods that they buy, cheaply and with high quality?

I do not want to protect folks from their employers. I want to protect folks from their creditors when it is needed. You seem to have assumed that I do not want any change to currently liberal bankruptcy laws. That is incorrect.

I have seen first hand that some folks abuse the current bankruptcy law to their benefit and to our detriment. I would in fact welcome some additional restrictions to personal bankruptcy law, but they should be balanced changes that also help to protect at-risk consumers from predatory creditors.

The new bankruptcy laws that will soon be on the books were not crafted under so much as pretense of balanced and fair review. They were written by creditors for their benefit alone. That is not justice.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 47):
You would gladly "protect the consumer" while lining others up at the firing squad for the crime of working for a business you despise in an industry upon whom you misplace blame.

The conclusions you are drawing are convoluted, irrational, and misinterpreted. At this point I'm done trying to bring your logic into the real world. Get a clue, or at least quit posting on subjects you are unwilling or unable to dissect intelligently.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
Indy
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:19 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 26):
When I see the likes of CO or DL whine about the "unexpected high price of jet fuel", especially when their forecasts aren't even one year old, what I read between the lines is "S***, we f***ed up!"

That is brilliant  Smile Absolutely a classic response.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Continental Airlines 1st Q Loss $192 Million

Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:31 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 12):
Screw that. I prefer to have lots of choices and cheap tickets. Apparently, so do most Americans; A.nutters notwithstanding.

Hence why they dont make money.
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories