ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:59 am

This pic got me wondering:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nick Onkow



Does NW -- or any airline -- sell seats on their freighters? I don't know how many of these seats there are; so they could be just for backup crew or other NW personnel.

I doubt any airlines sell these seats via normal procedures, but I was just curious to see if it was done at all.

I know that KLM flies the 744 combi, so don't count that. Just curious.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
jtamu97
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:48 am

I could be totally wrong, as I have been known to be once or twice in my life, but it seems the attempted hijacking of the Fed Ex plane years ago changed all of this. I think you used to be able to purchase a ticket on certain routes and this was I think maybe 2 or 3 seats. I can't remember if the guy on the Fed Ex plane was an employee or not but I recall hearing after this incident the freight lines changed their policy about carrying non essential personnel.

Later,
J
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
N766UA
Posts: 7843
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:48 am

Those seats are used by NW crews deadheading or for rest. UPS and FedEx have seats on some of their jets for flying employees as well.
This Website Censors Me
 
N766UA
Posts: 7843
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:50 am

Althought the FedEx incident did change the rules regarding employee travel onboard aircraft, no cargo airlines ever sold seats to my knowledge. The FedEx would-be hijacker was an employee and, if I'm not mistaken, also a pilot.
This Website Censors Me
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:00 am

employees of cargo airlines do have nonrev benifets on their airline, at least that is the way it was when I was at UPS
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:04 am

sometimes handlers fly along with their cargo, such as live animals.
 
747Loadmaster
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:42 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:07 am

The only non-company people allowed on the flight would be if they where escorting certain cargo (horse handlers, couriers ). They have to be cleared first.
 
Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2377
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:25 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:12 am

Do pax have to provide their own food?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
747Loadmaster
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:42 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:26 am

They get the same catering as us.
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:31 am

The 767 galley I designed for UPS 767s was pretty sparten, it included a place to put a couple of regular recreational coolers to hold whatever food they took.
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:46 am

IIRC, UPS 767's were "no frill" freighters. Can anyone confirm this?

fluffy
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:19 am

If I recall correctly, UPS used to have some sort of passenger conversion for some of there 727 freighters. They would just load this module, which contained a normal cabin layout, into the plane. They used it to run charters for companies like Apple Vacations. So technically this would be selling seats on a freighter!

I have always been curious about those modules, like did it have windows?
Tailwinds!!!
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 11):
If I recall correctly, UPS used to have some sort of passenger conversion for some of there 727 freighters. They would just load this module, which contained a normal cabin layout, into the plane. They used it to run charters for companies like Apple Vacations. So technically this would be selling seats on a freighter!


Yeah you're right they did. Alaska also has a few 732 Combis that they can install pallatized seats into the cargo bay. If it's being used as a Combi, IRC, the pax actually sit behind the cargo instead of vice versa like a 744.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 4):
employees of cargo airlines do have nonrev benifets on their airline, at least that is the way it was when I was at UPS

I think nonrevving on a cargo airline(UPS, FedEx) is a lot more restricted than it used to be after the FedEx incident. The attacker in the FedEx incident was not a pilot, he worked for FedEx in some other capacity I believe.
PHX based
 
doug_or
Posts: 3125
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:38 am

Skibum, I beleive they were the same as any other QC or combi aircraft.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
UAcsOKC
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:37 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 11):

I have always been curious about those modules, like did it have windows?

Yes, they did indeed have windows. In fact, if you got on one in the pax configuration, it would be hard to tell the difference between it and any other airliner. By the way these aircraft were originally owned by UA an I think also eastern, who used them for pax by day and cargo by night. It was wierd to get them in, unloading containers and looking out the windows just didnt seem quite right.  eyebrow 
I love the rumble of a 727 takeoff in the morning!
 
texdravid
Posts: 1397
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:08 am

Why would anyone want to fly a freighter?

Usually, freighters are older, noisier, and less fuel efficient aircraft that are do not have the reliability as newer passenger aircraft. Plus, if one was flying LAX-NRT on a cargo flight, you would have to stop at ANC!!

No thanks, I'll fly commercial!!
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:25 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 15):
Usually, freighters are older, noisier, and less fuel efficient aircraft that are do not have the reliability as newer passenger aircraft. Plus, if one was flying LAX-NRT on a cargo flight, you would have to stop at ANC!!

What about the 744F or the MD-11F? Those are older, noisier and less fuel efficient? The reason you stop in ANC is to optimize payload. However, we have several flights/week that go LAX-HKG or LAX-TPE non stop. But then again, those are on older noisier fuel burning 744Fs.
Fly fast, live slow
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:32 am

Thanks for the replies on my input on the UPS passenger flights.

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 15):
Why would anyone want to fly a freighter?

Usually, freighters are older, noisier, and less fuel efficient aircraft that are do not have the reliability as newer passenger aircraft. Plus, if one was flying LAX-NRT on a cargo flight, you would have to stop at ANC!!

I think you may be a little off on your assumptions on cargo aircraft.

While your comments were true at one point or if you look at smaller cargo carriers, like Kalitta, but if you look at the fleets of carriers like UPS, FEDEX and DHL. you will see that they have a large fleet of new and modern aircraft. DHL has replaced many of their older DC-8s with 762s and 757s. UPS has many newer MD-11s, 757Fs and 767s. And Fedex has many MD-11s, DC-10s that have been converted to MD-10s, A310s and have ordered the A380F. Also many larger cargo carriers have been buying new 747Fs.

While some of the planes may have been retired EARLY by airlines, many are newer airframes, like the MD-11. As far as reliability, I would say that they are much more reliable as the utilization at a cargo carrier is much lower. They usually do two or less cycles a day, where as a commercial passenger airliner may do 5 or more, which increases wear and tear.

I for one would fly on a cargo plane anytime, as the planes are maintained to the same standards as commercial airlines, if not better, and you get a chance to fly on some great airframes, like the MD-11, that are no dwindling in numbers at the commercials.
Tailwinds!!!
 
lincoln
Posts: 3133
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:22 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:48 pm

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 15):
Why would anyone want to fly a freighter?

Usually, freighters are older, noisier, and less fuel efficient aircraft that are do not have the reliability as newer passenger aircraft. Plus, if one was flying LAX-NRT on a cargo flight, you would have to stop at ANC!!

No thanks, I'll fly commercial!!

I can see why all of these things (save for, possibly, the stop in ANC) would be bad as far as the airline was concerned, but how would it be bad for an av. enthusiast?  Smile

[And I'll avoid the making th ovbious remark about NW's DC-9s...]

Personally, I love the older aircraft (to an extent) -- you can wonder (or, if you have the reg# know) about the airline's previous owners, how many airports it's seen, what one may find scribbled from a ramper from a company long gone...

I couldn't really care less about noise and fuel effeciency. Dispatch reliability isn't a huge one for me either (and certain airlines it seems that it's bad enough with newer aircraft that I don't think it could be much worse...). And I love connections, especially through airports I haven't seen yet--and ANC is one of those  Smile.

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 15):
No thanks, I'll fly commercial!!

ITYM "Scheduled commercial pax" -- Don't cargo and charter qualify as "commercial"? And some of the things I've read/heard about charter operators, I'd much rather travel as cargo (vs. in a pax seat on a cargo aircraft) if given the opportunity...

Lincoln
[Who has intentionally connected through MSP, ORD, ATL, and CVG on his way to DTW from SAN and/or LAX... IAH will probably be my next "extra hub"]
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1503
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:54 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:54 pm

Quoting 747Loadmaster (Reply 6):
horse handlers, couriers

Yes, I read an article about this for NCA (Nippon Cargo Airlines). Since many of their 747F came from ANA, they still have the old first class seats on the second deck for horse handlers, etc.

It looked really nice. I wonder about IFE though.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
brightcedars
Posts: 751
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:18 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:46 pm

I think it would be a nice idea, particularly nowadays with the 747-400s being converted into freighters and having the stretched upper deck unlike factory rolled 747-400 Freighters.

JAL has announced there would be seats in its converted 747-400s' upper deck (about 40 if I'm not mistaken) but I don't know if they will be marketed.

It could be a nice solution for airports with frequent cargo operations from destinations that are (no longer) served using passenger planes such as Brussels. Seoul, Singapore and the Gulf would then have some kind of service.
I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
 
soundtrack
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:53 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:02 pm

Cmon folks...

Very few normal passengers would want to be stuck on a Freighter flight nor I believe would airlines care to allow placing regular non-employee/essential or non-special businees (horse trainers, etc) passengers.

Only the aviation enthusiast/officianado would care to normally be on such flights.

Freighters DO offer all the above for their purposes of transporting their own - but you can forget passengers EXCEPT COMBIS like AK 737's and ex-KLM before and some others today (Angola).

But this was a good query!
 
VHXLR8
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:36 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 4):
employees of cargo airlines do have nonrev benifets on their airline, at least that is the way it was when I was at UPS

But who then would be in charge of their safety?? Commercial flights of course have flight attendants on board, but cargo flights do not. Even if you are an employee of an airline, that does not mean you are proficient with emergency procedures etc.
 
Euclid
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:42 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:08 pm

I am not too sure about this, so please feel free to correct me if anyone knows better, but as far as I know Hydro Air Cargo, who used to operate a converted 747 freighter mostly between South Africa and Belgium, sold seats on the upper deck. Sadly this airline went under after the aircraft was damaged in a landing incident at, if I recall correctly, Lagos.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:22 pm

In my old job, UPS used to report annual traffic data to me. In amongst all their cargo data, they would also include about 100,000 passengers carried per year on their flights (mainly on international services). That has all but disappeared now I notice - I assume because of the new regulations.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
manu
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:57 pm

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 19):
they still have the old first class seats on the second deck for horse handlers

So would the horse be carried on by the handler, or would the handler be carrying on the horse? Either way, I don't think they'll fit under the seat or in the overhead bin. Next time they complain about what I am taking on board, I'll tell them "at least it isn't a horse!"
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:18 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 12):
The attacker in the FedEx incident was not a pilot, he worked for FedEx in some other capacity I believe.

He was a flight engineer, I believe he was about to get fired for falsifying some things on his resume and his plan was to fly the DC-10 into the FedEx facility at MEM.

http://www.airliners.net/articles/read.main?id=20

"Most cases of revenge end with the hijacker killing themselves, or they are captured while trying to do in themselves. This was the case on board Federal Express 705 from Memphis to San Hose. The DC-10 freighter was crewed by Captain David Sanders, First Officer Jim Tucker, and Flight Engineer Andy Peterson. On the jumpseat was FedEx Flight Engineer Auburn Calloway."

http://www.tailstrike.com/070494.htm
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:40 pm

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 20):
I think it would be a nice idea, particularly nowadays with the 747-400s being converted into freighters and having the stretched upper deck unlike factory rolled 747-400 Freighters.

On the 744SF currently being converted in Xiamen for CX the upperdeck cabin will be removed aft of the upperdeck doors.
 
NWADC9
Posts: 3940
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:33 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:42 pm

Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 22):
Commercial flights of course have flight attendants on board

Oh, ho ho ho, that's rich! If an aircraft has 19 seats or less, it won't have an FA. The pilots do the safety briefings, and take over their job except for giving you your apple juice and fluffing your pillow.
Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
 
brightcedars
Posts: 751
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:18 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:07 pm

Quoting Tod (Reply 27):
On the 744SF currently being converted in Xiamen for CX the upperdeck cabin will be removed aft of the upperdeck doors.

It's their choice but the space remains (they're not shrinking the upper deck I presume) as an area that can be fitted with more seats that a classic 747 (100 & 200 non-SUB) if one wished to do so.
I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:13 pm

Just a followup on the 400 SF conversion. Yes, the space remains, but the flooring is taken out. Thus there is no height restriction for the pallets in that area. If the floor is left in, then there is a height restriction. So, most operators of the 400SF have opted to have the upper deck conversion done.
Fly fast, live slow
 
EXMEMWIDGET
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:25 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:37 pm

The attempted hijacking at FedEx caused an immediate suspension of jumpseating privileges by all non pilot employees. I always found this somewhat ironic since the hijacker was a FedEx pilot. The suspension period was not very long from what I remember. The end result of this incident was an increase in the screening of jumpseaters baggage for items that could be used as weapons. The new screening system seemed quite odd in the fact that if you began your journey in some of the smaller cities on the system i.e. TYS, your luggage was not screened until you reached MEM. Most of the smaller cities have no security personel to perform screening. 9-11 changed the screening process again. In the cities that do not have x-ray machines, all jumpseater luggage is now hand inspected by designated FedEx personel, usually by a ramp agent I believe.
 
747Loadmaster
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:42 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:03 pm

On the 300 conversions they did the same thing, they removed the floor so you could get the same amount of 3 meter pallets as on the 200f. If they carry a loadmaster he does the brief or the crew will. All the companies I have worked for all only have 8 escape harness, so - 3 crew + ALM Antillean Airlines (Netherlands Antilles)">LM + MX that only leaves 3 seats available. The food, they help themselves.
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:28 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 11):
If I recall correctly, UPS used to have some sort of passenger conversion for some of there 727 freighters.

Did their flight attendants wear brown? Could you get the brown truck to take you to your hotel? When you got there did the hotel have to sign for you? Big grin
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
longhaulheavy
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:52 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:59 pm

Quoting Captoveur (Reply 33):
Did their flight attendants wear brown? Could you get the brown truck to take you to your hotel? When you got there did the hotel have to sign for you?

Ha...if he/she had a tracking number, you could track a friend from door-to-door!
 
VHXLR8
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:48 pm

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 28):
Oh, ho ho ho, that's rich!

Care to enlighten me as to why it is such??

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 28):
If an aircraft has 19 seats or less, it won't have an FA. The pilots do the safety briefings, and take over their job

Perhaps on small commuter aircraft, but on a 747 (or the like), things can be slightly more invloved, and hence the need for a safety operator is more apparent. Ho ho ho...
 
miami1
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 10:31 pm

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:00 am

Here in Australia an aircraft with 16 or more seats must have a flight attendant OR the airline must prove to CASA that it's procedures allow the FO to perform the safety related functions of a flight attendant.

There was an airline with a FA on a B1900D. It was Interot based in Germany, the predecessor to Ausburg Airways.

Impulse Airlines had a (deactivated) FA station on some of their 1900s.
 
tymnbalewne
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:06 am

RE: Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters

Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:09 am

I have a vague remembrance (or hallucination?) that Flying Tiger allowed passengers on the upper deck of their 747's for a short period of time calling it 'Captain's Class"??

C.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew