AT
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European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:54 am

In the US there is usually a dedicated cabin with wider and fewer seats per row, separated by a fixed divider. European carriers have a single configuration with movable dividers.
From a business model, which is a better strategy?

I can see both sides:
Us carriers: a dedicated cabin, greater leg room...
European: can be tailored to demand- less likelihood of empty seats in either cabin.
 
ozglobal
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:32 am

Short haul premium class (business) is a marginal and short lived benefit over Y, never worth the money, but welcome as an upgrade for FF's. On the other hand J and F on long haul are a question of civilization versus torture.

As to the question at hand, the US domestic cabin arrangement is more traditionally 'premium', but as US airlines are generally so bad compared with Asia Pacific, Middle Eastern and European, again, who cares?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
fbgdavidson
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:44 am

I think the American system works better (with the exception of not always having lounge access in First, unless elite, which although doesn't affect me is a stupid policy!) as you get the separate cabin and feel that you have paid extra for the a better experience. However the service doesn't ever meet top standards IMO

The European system is good from an airlines perspective, extra C bookings means the move of a curtain, although does mean you can get 21 rows of C on a 26 row aircarft! As the seats are as good as identical service levels needs to be brought up to give customer satisfaction they are getting their money's worth. Some airlines flop on this part! *cough* Iberia *cough*
"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
 
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Richard28
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:22 am

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 2):
I think the American system works better (with the exception of not always having lounge access in First, unless elite, which although doesn't affect me is a stupid policy!) as you get the separate cabin and feel that you have paid extra for the a better experience.

Agree absolutely.

Haven't flown K class UK and USA and agree that the USA have got it right.

For F class I want a bigger seat and private cabin - and I dont mean a curtain!
 
CXYYZ
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:04 pm

I never understood how European travellers justified flying business class (for the carriers I've looked at anyway - I'm sure there are exceptions) when there is so little difference between it and economy. If I'm paying extra, I want to feel I'm getting my money's worth and that means I expect a clearly distinct product like is offered in North American or Asia.
 
Flighttime
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:13 pm

The reason they 'get away with it' is because short haul business class is not the equivalent of uS first class. Full fare euro C is rarely more than fifty quid more than full fare Y. With that you get airport lounge access at both ends, slightly more spacious cabin, generally much better food service and more FF/tier points. If anything shorthaul business is a premium economy in Europe.
 
teva
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:21 am

At AF, the seats are the same, to give more operational flexibility by pushing the curtain.
However, if you are on the good side of the curtain (I mean in the front section) there is a huge difference. The middle seat is not used. It is transformed in a table. and the armrest of the seats are pushed, making your seat wider.
So, even if the person seating next to you has been too often to "bad donald's", you will not be crushed.
And of course, you have you glass of real Champagne before takeoff
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
fbgdavidson
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Teva (Reply 6):
However, if you are on the good side of the curtain (I mean in the front section) there is a huge difference.

But it is the same seat, the difference therefore isn't huge and doesn't warrant the premiums some airlines charge between C and Y fares with same restrictions....how much is a glass of champagne worth really??? Its not like airlines serve Krug Grand Cuvee on shorthaul C!

Hvaing said that, the middle seat not being used is a very nice feature, especially if check-in staff offer to block the other seat too  Smile
"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
 
jouy31
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:32 pm

Another difference for intra-European flights between a full-fare Y ticket and a C ticket, which is unrestricted, lies in the fact that, on the same route, you can change both airlines and flights in C, while you can only change flights on the same airline in full fare Y.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:56 pm

In America you have big houses, big cars, big seats, and big bags.

In Europe you have small houses, small cars, small seats and small carry-ons.
 
t154m
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:59 pm

AF for eg. uses the same C class seats with a curtain devider on the european routes to some middle east destinations, talking about 4-5 hrs filght on those crappy seats which are exactly like Y class and charge double the fare! Meanwhile on arab carriers you have a true dedicated C cabin with wider seats and generous recline. I'll never fly AF 320 business.
 
Orion737
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:09 pm

The full economy service offered by European carrierls like BA is as good as the service in First class on US domestic routes. OK, the seats are smaller but you do get a hot meal in Y and nowadays you are lucky to get a hot meal in F in the US.

On occasion I do treat myself to C on European flights if it is a special occasion or to make my holiday extra special. I have only ever used GB Airways C class though, but they are excellent.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:12 pm

Quoting CXYYZ (Reply 4):
I never understood how European travellers justified flying business class (for the carriers I've looked at anyway - I'm sure there are exceptions) when there is so little difference between it and economy. If I'm paying extra, I want to feel I'm getting my money's worth and that means I expect a clearly distinct product like is offered in North American or Asia.

As has been said, the biz class fare is changeable, while the monkey class one in most cases is not.

Also, Euroflights are on average shorter than US domestic flights.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ozglobal
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 9):
In America you have big houses, big cars, big seats, and big bags.

In Europe you have small houses, small cars, small seats and small carry-ons.

And your point was .....?

The US uses 60% of the world's energy for 4% of the world's population and produces over 50% of the world's polution. I hope you don't think that's something to be envied...

Air travel-wise, not one US airline is rated above 3 star nor any US airport rated in the top 10. It would seem that big is not beautiful.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
stock1985
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:38 am

(Ozglobal: The US uses 60% of the world's energy for 4% of the world's population and produces over 50% of the world's polution. I hope you don't think that's something to be envied...)

Spoken like a true Frenchman!
 
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PA110
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:22 am

In the US, carriers have traditionally stressed the creature comforts of domestic First Class.

European carriers did the same, when they had short haul First Class cabins. Unlike US carriers, virtually all European carriers have done away with short haul First Class in favor of convertible Business Class cabins.

Most European carriers promote their shorthaul Business class in terms of ticket flexibility. They hardly ever refer to creature comforts other than possibly keeping the middle seat open.

They are simply different products, which require different approaches. They really can't be or should be compared.

[Edited 2005-04-30 04:25:14]
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
exFATboy
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting Ozglobal (Reply 13):
The US uses 60% of the world's energy for 4% of the world's population and produces over 50% of the world's polution. I hope you don't think that's something to be envied...

60% of the world's energy? Name your source, please - while the US uses a disproportionate share of global energy, there's no way in hell it's 60%. And your pollution figure looks dodgy too.
 
ozglobal
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sun May 01, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 16):
your pollution figure looks dodgy too.

You're right. Some of my figures are exaggerated. Here are a collection of facts.

BBC News: "The Politics of Climate Change"

The US pollutes more, absolutely and per head, than any other country. Its greenhouse emissions have risen by more than 11% since 1990: its Kyoto commitment was to reduce them by 6%. It is the only country to have signed the protocol and then to have repudiated it. President Bush said in March the US would not ratify Kyoto, because he thought it could damage the US economy and because it does not yet require developing countries to cut their emissions. His domestic and foreign critics think the US will lose economically by staying aloof.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...i_tech/2001/climate_change/usa.stm

The US represents 25% of all CO2 emissions, vs. 4.6% of population.

US: Virtual rubbish bin The image shows the weekly waste output of the average US citizen. At 14.3kg it is the highest in the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...anet/waste/weeks_waste/default.stm

The US consumes more than a quarter of the world's energy, and has less than 5% of the world's population

So 50-60% is not the correct figure for US energy consumption, but is more related to 'resource' consumption, which is a combination of energy, raw materials and general imports.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: European Vs US Premium Classes (short Haul)

Sun May 01, 2005 8:43 am

Dont forget that European flights are geenrally much shorter than US flights. The average European flight is probably round about 2 hours or so, whereas im sure the US is nearer 4 or 5?

As such there is little demand for paying double the fare just to get an extra few inches leg room. Of more interest is the lounge access and flexibility in the tickets. People re prepared to pay a few extra ££ for this.

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