ETStar
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Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:22 am

Nigeria has barred U.S.-based airlines from flying direct to the African nation in retaliation for a U.S. ban on Nigeria's new national carrier, Virgin Nigeria, part-owned by Britain's Virgin Group, officials said on Friday.

http://www.reuters.co.za/locales/c_n...ws&localeKey=en_ZA&storyID=8268530


There ya have it, it ain't because CO was tired of paying bribes, security, blah blah blah. Simple tit for tat. And I applaud the Nigerian Goverment for doing this, for standing up for their airlines' interest.
 
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:30 am

Virgin Nigeria....hm. So when does "Virgin Greenland" start service?  sarcastic 
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:34 am

I figured that was what was happening. Why is Virgin Nigeria banned from the US? When will Virgin Nigeria even have aircraft capable of reaching the US? Is Nigeria Category 1?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ltbewr
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:45 am

Does Nigeria Airlines currently have direct flights to the USA? I would suggest Virgin Nigeria Airlines is not being allowed rights to the USA due to post-9/11 security fears. That is, fears of terrorists going via Nigeria Airlines, fears of illegal entry into the USA of crews and pax claiming asylum, the difficulty in securing the airport in Nigeria and access to the general public there (unlike the charter flights Houston-Lagos), the horrendous corruption endemic with that country and general lack of rule of law. We would probably rather that access to/from Nigeria be access via Europe so another layer of acceptable security and immigation controls.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3):
Does Nigeria Airlines currently have direct flights to the USA? I would suggest Virgin Nigeria Airlines is not being allowed rights to the USA due to post-9/11 security fears. That is, fears of terrorists going via Nigeria Airlines, fears of illegal entry into the USA of crews and pax claiming asylum, the difficulty in securing the airport in Nigeria and access to the general public there (unlike the charter flights Houston-Lagos), the horrendous corruption endemic with that country and general lack of rule of law. We would probably rather that access to/from Nigeria be access via Europe so another layer of acceptable security and immigation controls.

Actually, it is beacuse the US government claims that Virgin Nigeria is British controlled, and therefore bound by Bermuda II.
 
Clipper002
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:51 am

I wouldn't believe a single word of any article written in any Nigerian newspaper. I have actually been party to several actions that involved Nigeria and when these actions were reported in the local papers, they were completely turned around. Their press is as bad as the government. And don't go quoting "officials". Everyone over there claims to be an official of something.

Ed
Ed
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:51 am

Forgive my ignorance....what is Bermuda II?
 
ETStar
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3):
Does Nigeria Airlines currently have direct flights to the USA? I would suggest Virgin Nigeria Airlines is not being allowed rights to the USA due to post-9/11 security fears. That is, fears of terrorists going via Nigeria Airlines, fears of illegal entry into the USA of crews and pax claiming asylum, the difficulty in securing the airport in Nigeria and access to the general public there (unlike the charter flights Houston-Lagos), the horrendous corruption endemic with that country and general lack of rule of law. We would probably rather that access to/from Nigeria be access via Europe so another layer of acceptable security and immigation controls.

Your concerns also pertain to countries and airlines like Saudi Arabian Airlines, since Saudi Arabia where most of your 911 terrorists came from, South African Airways since in South Africa crime is rife, Biman Bangladesh Airline since that country is ranked the most corrupt, Chinese airlines with China for its human rights abuses Pakistan since it has many issues to count yet all of these airlines (and many others) are allowed entry into the US. So, can you elaborate your point, if you have one?

Claiming assylum is so easy once you have a Visa to the US, and it does not matter which way you get to the States. And none of the airlines would let you onto their flights without a visa as there are repercussions to them for failing to do so.

Many airlines fly into Nigeria, including top notch airlines from Europe and the rest of the world, yet they do not have fear to do so and obviously security in and around the airport is not of concern.

General Lack of rule of law? Ever been to Compton and other parts of California?

Finally, Nigeria Airlines does not exist. It has been liquidated. Virgin Nigeria is its successor and has been designated the country's flag carrier.

Raising 911 as an argument for every issue at hand won't get you anywhere my friend. The world does not revolve around it.
 
ETStar
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 5):
I wouldn't believe a single word of any article written in any Nigerian newspaper. I have actually been party to several actions that involved Nigeria and when these actions were reported in the local papers, they were completely turned around. Their press is as bad as the government. And don't go quoting "officials". Everyone over there claims to be an official of something.

Hi Ed,
If you look closely, this is a Reuters report, not a local Nigerian newspaper's.
 
BigOrange
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:17 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 6):
Forgive my ignorance....what is Bermuda II

Bermuda II is the stupid agreement signed by the British and US governments to restrict competition between the US and London, by only allowing 2 US airlines to fly into LHR
 
ual747den
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:17 am

Im sure that this is not going to hurt anyone in America. I would say that the US Government is going to be delighted by this news. It will take away one more headache. Nothing good comes from this crime ridden place.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3):
Does Nigeria Airlines currently have direct flights to the USA? I would suggest Virgin Nigeria Airlines is not being allowed rights to the USA due to post-9/11 security fears. That is, fears of terrorists going via Nigeria Airlines, fears of illegal entry into the USA of crews and pax claiming asylum

Have you considered thats discrimination because of the national skin colour?, and it can be considered racial discrimination

Back to topic:
Its just a misunderstanding on Americas part
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Clipper002
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:34 am

I saw that, but the information it is based on is right out of LOS. Believe me you cannot tell who is what over there.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:34 am

Quoting ETStar (Thread starter):
Nigeria has barred U.S.-based airlines from flying direct to the African nation in retaliation for a U.S. ban on Nigeria's new national carrier, Virgin Nigeria, part-owned by Britain's Virgin Group, officials said on Friday.

Talk about a government being bought.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting ETStar (Thread starter):
Simple tit for tat

Nothing in West Africa is ever simple.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
behramjee
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:38 am

it is just sad that the worlds biggest supporter of free trade and free enterprise is doing this to Virgin Nigeria. CO has more chances to quickly grab mkt share whilst VS Nigeria is in its infacy.

Anyways...do u think that due to VSs close tie up with CO in USA that it would be feeding COs domestic flights especially to IAH, IAD, LAX and ORD from EWR...or does VS Nigeria plan on flying LOS-JFK which I hope is not the case.
 
Skyguy
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:40 am

UAL747DEN: Totally agree with you. I lived there long time back and it's a dreadful place in terms of doing business (corruption of biblical proportions) and the US is probably safer by not allowing flights originating from there flying straight here. Anyone intent on doing something bad can just bribe their way to it, and security guards there are a joke.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
padcrasher
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:40 am

The reason is a little more basic than that. Virgin Nigeria is half owned by Nigerian cronies affiliated with the Government. (One of the most corrupt goverments in the World) Keeping out competition ensures they will still get a good chunk of the revenue via London anyway. They keep their money, passengers pay higher prices and must connect.
 
Argonaut
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:44 am

Let's see...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how these things work, but...

If Virgin Nigeria is 49% owned by Virgin Atlantic...
and Virgin Atlantic is 49% owned by Singapore Airlines...
doesn't that mean that Virgin Nigeria is only 24.99% British-owned...?

I'm not sure just why 24.99% (not to mention a Nigerian HQ) makes it sufficiently "British" to be defined as such under Bermuda II, but I'm all ears if someone cares to tell me.

Looks to me like the USA's usual penchant for commercial bullying, and not being above twisting the facts (spin?) to make it work for them. Capitalism---ya gotta love it!
'the rank is but the guinea stamp'
 
padcrasher
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:51 am

Your'e sort of making the argument the US is. If you boiled down all the owners here in all the airlines involved and all the companies that own shares of these airlines to the lowest common denominator Virgin Nigeria is likely majority British owned.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting Argonaut (Reply 18):
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how these things work,

There are two conditions that need to be satisfied under the US-Nigeria open skies bilateral. These are "substantial ownership" and "effective control".

The US accepts that Virgin Nigeria has demonstrated "substantial ownership". The burden is on Virgin Nigeria to demonstrate "effective control".
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:54 am

[quote=UAL747DEN,reply=10]Im sure that this is not going to hurt anyone in America. I would say that the US Government is going to be delighted by this news.quote]
Wrong, it will hurt CO because of the US Governments stuff up. If CO had already sold tickets on the new flight then CO will have to refund, which means lost revenue.
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LH423
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:02 am

By the US's logic, Virgin Atlantic is 49% owned by Singapore Airlines and therefore should be governed by the bilateral treaty between the US and Singapore.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:26 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 10):
Im sure that this is not going to hurt anyone in America. I would say that the US Government is going to be delighted by this news. It will take away one more headache. Nothing good comes from this crime ridden place.

That's sheer paranoia and I would say your statement about 'nothing good coming out of Nigeria' is not far from being racist. Did you consider which primary market CO will serve on the US-LOS route? The airline is targeting energy-sector business executives who will surely make the route a success.
I would say the biggest loser in all of this will be Continental Airlines (and the US side) which is seeking to explore new and profitable overseas markets at a time when the domestic US airline industry is in crisis.

Nigeria also has a lot to gain in resuming a direct route to the US: Direct route to the biggest economy in the world, increased trade prospects, investment, etc. Nigeria's image has been devastated following decades of brutal and corrupt military rule. The new civilian government is trying to improve the image problem, cracking down on corruption, eliminating trade barriers, promoting tourism. There are positive signs that an economic recovery is underway and the government should be supported.

It's just a pity how ignorant and illogical some people can be, jumping to conclusions, judgements, before bothering to be informed.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 17):
The reason is a little more basic than that. Virgin Nigeria is half owned by Nigerian cronies affiliated with the Government. (One of the most corrupt goverments in the World) Keeping out competition ensures they will still get a good chunk of the revenue via London anyway. They keep their money, passengers pay higher prices and must connect.

That is not correct. 51% of Virgin Nigeria's share capital was recently sold off in a private placement to well-respected Nigerian conglomerates, such as Nigerian Breweries, Dantata Group, among others. The process was arranged by Investment Banking & Trust Company (IBTC).
If there is a will, there is a way
 
soups
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:34 am

51% of VNA is nigerian owned while 49% is VS so i dont see it as being a ''british airline''..
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
Argonaut
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 20):
The US accepts that Virgin Nigeria has demonstrated "substantial ownership". The burden is on Virgin Nigeria to demonstrate "effective control".

Point taken, although I'm still not clear how that necessarily makes it an issue under Bermuda II, if the salient agreement is actually the US-Nigeria bilateral. Does it mean that, if "effective control" rests with an airline of another country, then the governing bilateral becomes that with that other airline's country instead?

I appreciate your help in elucidating this.
'the rank is but the guinea stamp'
 
B747-437B
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting Argonaut (Reply 25):
Does it mean that, if "effective control" rests with an airline of another country, then the governing bilateral becomes that with that other airline's country instead?

In effect, yes. The airline would be treated as a subsidiary interest of the airline from the parent country and as such would be governed by the applicable regulations in that case.

Again, I stress that the US has not made any ruling against Virgin Nigeria on this issue. The US position is exactly the position it maintains with every single airline from every single country (including DHL most recently) namely that the burden is incumbent upon the carrier to prove the effective control.

Virgin Nigeria believes for whatever reason that they cannot demonstrate that effective control of the carrier lies with Nigeria. Nigeria's position is that the US should not enforce this provision against Virgin Nigeria. As such, Nigeria's action to ban US airlines from Nigeria is an abrogation of the US-Nigeria open skies agreement and would potentially open up Nigeria for sanctions by ICAO.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
KL808
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 26):
As such, Nigeria's action to ban US airlines from Nigeria is an abrogation of the US-Nigeria open skies agreement and would potentially open up Nigeria for sanctions by ICAO.

I highly doubt that. Because the same can be said to the US. It all comes down to he said she said crap.

This problem will be resolved in due time, both parties will come to an agreement of some sort.

This is actually good news FOR NOW for Virgin Nigeria, because it doesn't currently have the equipment to operate to JFK anyways, therefore banning CO to LOS is great for them, giving them time to catch up. You don't want CO gobbling up all the market share. However, if does persist then it could be trouble because the US market is highly lucrative, not only for Virgin Nigeria but also for CO.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
B747-437B
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 27):
the same can be said to the US. It all comes down to he said she said crap.

The difference is that the US has followed due process to this point. Virgin Nigeria has never even made a filing to the US DOT attempting to demonstrate effective control. As such, Virgin Nigeria has not been in compliance with the conditions laid out in the bilateral.

Continental on the other hand has made all the requisite filings and satisfied all the requisite conditions, but has been denied access on the basis of an arbitrary ruling by Nigeria. Due process has not been followed by Nigeria again.

If the matter went to ICAO arbitration it would be an open-and-shut case.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
padcrasher
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:47 am

So it's not the mean Americans fault? Oh boy a lot people are going to be disappointed.
 
ETStar
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's

Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:18 am

It's never the mean Americans' fault! How could you even suggest that? Don't you know that 911 has changed the world?
 
padcrasher
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:36 am

LOL! I know exactly where you are coming from. Agee 100% Wanna help? Stop with the knee jerk reactions every time it's US vs "insert 3rd World country".
 
behramjee
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:37 am

Why doesnt VS then advertise an A 343 or B 744 same plane service between JFK/EWR-LHR-LOS which is the next best thing!!!

This in a way good for VS Nigeria as it now allows it to focus its long haul flights around the EU-UK-JNB and DXB for the time being rather than getting headaches over how to go about their USA flights.

If Virgin Nigeria fly to USA, I would prefer them flying into EWR and not JFK.
 
LPLAspotter
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting ETStar (Reply 7):
Ever been to Compton and other parts of California?

I remember being onboard a SN 310 with a technical stop in LOS before going to Yaounde. Wanting to stretch my legs, I walked to the rear of the cabin where one of the doors was open. I approached it and noticed a guard outside with an automatic weapon standing on the gangway. He told me that taking photos was prohibited (I had a camera in my hand), but if I would give him $10 he would let have free access to the tarmac.

Let's see that happen at LAX!

LPLAspotter
Nuke the Gay Wales for Christ
 
ScottB
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:37 am

Quoting Argonaut (Reply 18):
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how these things work, but...

If Virgin Nigeria is 49% owned by Virgin Atlantic...
and Virgin Atlantic is 49% owned by Singapore Airlines...
doesn't that mean that Virgin Nigeria is only 24.99% British-owned...?

Yes, you misunderstand "how these things work." Virgin Nigeria is 49%-owned by Virgin GROUP, not Virgin Atlantic. Virgin Group is Branson's conglomerate which owns some portion (I do not know if they own the entire 51% of Virgin Atlantic not owned by Singapore Air) of Virgin Atlantic.

Suggestions that Virgin Atlantic and/or Virgin Nigeria offer same-plane service or coordinated schedules to the USA from Nigeria via LHR would only serve to reinforce the U.S. government's view that Virgin Nigeria (calling it "VS Nigeria" is no more valid than calling it DJ Nigeria) is not controlled by Nigerian interests.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:51 am

This is a very very complicated situation that is probably best left to the lawyers and the politicians to figure out. Aside from the relevant legal issues, emotions are involved - the US and UK cannot seem to figure out a way to move beyond Bermuda 2 and actions like this show how frustrated the parites both are. Add to that the difficulties of doing business in Western Africa (things just work differently in that part of the world and there are legitimate security and operartional issues to deal with - its far more complicated than most realize) and what we have is one big mess. It seems that, atleast for the time being, CO will be the loser here and its plans for the oil-barron express must be put on hold. Remember, CO studied the Lagos route for many years and the route was the subject of much debate within CO, and from what I hear, not everyone over at CO was behind the decision to open up the Lagos route, so the current situation is yet another roadblock in what has been a very difficult (and probably costly) proposal for CO.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:59 am

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 32):
Why doesnt VS then advertise an A 343 or B 744 same plane service between JFK/EWR-LHR-LOS

There is no provision for "points behind" service in Bermuda II.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
bennett123
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:09 pm

BIGORANGE

I think that you will find that Bermuda 2 also limits UK airlines operating to the US.
 
africawings
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:01 pm

Quite simply put, Virgin Nigeria is not recognized by the US government as a legitimate Nigerian entity. Virgin Atlantic Airways owns 49.9 % and brought US$50 million to the table to own that equity state and will provide the used aircraft for the service (Where can you buy one decent aircraft for only 50 million I ask you?).

Talk about a load of crap. When the Nigerian government gets serious about a true Nigerian airline, the US government will talk to them about landing rights.
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:07 am

Quoting ETStar (Reply 7):
Your concerns also pertain to countries and airlines like Saudi Arabian Airlines, since Saudi Arabia where most of your 911 terrorists came from, South African Airways since in South Africa crime is rife, Biman Bangladesh Airline since that country is ranked the most corrupt, Chinese airlines with China for its human rights abuses Pakistan since it has many issues to count yet all of these airlines (and many others) are allowed entry into the US. So, can you elaborate your point, if you have one?

We are equally concerned about terrorists who fly into your wonderful country where you think it's okay for them to cross our borders.

Your diatribe of the US is irrelevant to this post.
Keepin' it real.
 
art
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting Africawings (Reply 38):
Quite simply put, Virgin Nigeria is not recognized by the US government as a legitimate Nigerian entity. Virgin Atlantic Airways owns 49.9 % and brought US$50 million to the table to own that equity state and will provide the used aircraft for the service

If the Nigerian government owns >50% of the shares in a company and that company is not recognised "by the US government as a legitimate Nigerian entity", what proportion of shares would it need to own before it was recognised as such?
 
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Richard28
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
Yes, you misunderstand "how these things work." Virgin Nigeria is 49%-owned by Virgin GROUP, not Virgin Atlantic

Incorrect, it is 49% owned by Virgin Atlantic, not Virgin Group.

http://www.virginnigeria.com/press/pr2004-09-28.html

Lets all not forget that the USA actually signed Bermuda II, it was not forced upon them, and it is therefore a binding agreement from both sides (UK & USA).

Also remember that Bermuda II re-negotiations have failed, thus far, largely due to lack of access by UK carriers to the US market (hence Virgin America will be a US controlled company, with Virgin having a minority share).
 
lijnden
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:25 am

Nigeria...
I think a country full of scams and criminals! Throughout the years I have received so many false business deals, it's not funny anymore. All pretty professional looking on official goverment sealed paper and envelopes. Some advise; If you get one just throw it out. If they call you, just hang up.

I really wonder what an airline like Continental Airlines sees in a destination like Lagos? I know from KLM crew that it is the least favourite destination and that they feel very unsafe there.

I can understand that the US Government is somewhat worried about the new national airline of Nigeria as well. Check out the cheap web-page www.virginnigeria.com and check the jobs section. Look at Branson's face on the pictures on the webpages. Does he look happy and cheery with this deal, like he normally does when this great aviation man makes a new move?
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
EurostarVA
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RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:06 am

Lijnden,

I must say it is regrettable that every time the word Nigeria is mentioned, members of this forum rush to shout "corruption" and "crime". For heaven's sake, have u ever been to Chicago? The crime rate there is terrifying! Just look at the number of cases recorded for each crime for the year 2000:

Chicago
Population 2,896,016
Crime rate (Per 1,000 residents)
2000 76

Total crimes: 219,778
Murder: 627
Rape: 2,237
Robbery: 19,449
Assault: 26,660
Burglary: 28,401
Theft: 105,728
Auto theft: 35,570

Source: Illinois State Police, Illinois Uniform Crime Reporting Program

That is certainly worth thinking about if you are heading to Chicago!

How about Italy? Corruption there is rife!!

As to your con artists experience, yes 419 messages are Nigeria's number 1 enemy at the moment, with the Govt. taking action and imprisoning the culprits. You can imagine, that a poor country like Nigeria which has one of the lowest Internet penetration in the world, will find it a huge challenge to trace and hunt down these individuals which are responsible for ruining Nigeria's image.

On your next point: I really wonder what an airline like Continental Airlines sees in a destination like Lagos?

Well then why dont u ask all the other airlines serving LOS the same question: and they include BA, Emirates, KLM, LH, etc. etc. If the market is there and there is Gold to mine, you bet the carriers will go there. For your information the Lagos route is the most profitable BA destination, the yields are very high.

Virgin Nigeria is a Nigerian airline, as reflected in its ownership structure (51% owned by local institutional investors). Hopefully no lawyers will be needed to prove that one.

As to the Virgin Nigeria webpage, it is a simple fact sheet, the carrier hasn't started operations yet. I'm sure their marketing director (who will be hired imminently) will ensure VN is well represented on the Web through a new, exciting webpage capturing the Virgin brand with an African style (can't wait to see that one!).
If there is a will, there is a way
 
Douglas7Seas
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:00 pm

RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:51 am

What concerns me, far more than the fumblings and bumblings of politics etc in Nigeria, is the ease with which any yokel can get "asylum" etc in Canada. We in the USA should be far more concerned about air traffic (and every other kind of traffic) coming from that direction than flights too and from Nigeria. By the way, is Nigeria still a country this week?

Remember the fine little boy who was caught coming across the border from Canada with the intent of disrupting operations at LAX? And hey, my family and I have been using LAX since my first flight in 1958. So.....
Be different; Be nice.
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:57 am

Nigeria. 2004's 2nd most corrupt country in the World per Transparency International

http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004/cpi2004.en.html#cpi2004
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting ETStar (Thread starter):
Nigeria has barred U.S.-based airlines from flying direct to the African nation in retaliation for a U.S. ban on Nigeria's new national carrier, Virgin Nigeria, part-owned by Britain's Virgin Group, officials said on Friday.

So? How does this affect us anyway? With all due respect, does anyone care at all?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
EurostarVA
Posts: 1205
Joined: Thu May 16, 2002 12:24 am

RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 46):
o? How does this affect us anyway? With all due respect, does anyone care at all?

Apparently, Continental DOES! Maybe not yourself, but for many stakeholders of the proposed route, they care.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:59 am

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 47):
Apparently, Continental DOES!

I thought someone mentioned earlier above that CO abandoned the routes because of high costs of flying there, landing fees and gate fees, etc....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
ETStar
Topic Author
Posts: 1850
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:25 am

RE: Lagos: No US Airlines Allowed! Reason For CO's Xcl

Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 46):
So? How does this affect us anyway? With all due respect, does anyone care at all?

With this forum being an aviation forum, anything that has something to do with aviation goes. Iti snot limited to aviation to the US. The US may be your World, but there is much more to the world that just your country.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 48):
I thought someone mentioned earlier above that CO abandoned the routes because of high costs of flying there, landing fees and gate fees, etc....

That's what people said earlier in a different thread, but given the high yields that can be had from such operations, any airline would pay whatever costs may be associated (and I am sure that the rates of landing fees and gate fees are much lower than flying into places like LHR and AMS). So the real reason, per this article is the disagreement between the governments, deadlocked over percentages et al, and not the reasons you stated.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 45):
Nigeria. 2004's 2nd most corrupt country in the World per Transparency International

http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004...i2004

You are not the first one to point this out (btw Nigeria is #3). But, since you pointed it out, there are still flights between Haiti and the US (Haiti is #1), and Bangladesh and the US (Bangladesh is #2) yet I don't hear you or others vehemently bashing these two countries. I should also point that USA is the 17th least corrupt country: why is it not #1?

Quoting Douglas7Seas (Reply 44):
What concerns me, far more than the fumblings and bumblings of politics etc in Nigeria, is the ease with which any yokel can get "asylum" etc in Canada. We in the USA should be far more concerned about air traffic (and every other kind of traffic) coming from that direction than flights too and from Nigeria. By the way, is Nigeria still a country this week?

Remember the fine little boy who was caught coming across the border from Canada with the intent of disrupting operations at LAX? And hey, my family and I have been using LAX since my first flight in 1958. So.....

Funny you mentioned it... but do you have statistics on how many yokes get assylum in the US? In fact, from what I hear, it is much easier to get it in the US than in Canada, as it is much easier to get into the US than into Canada. While we're on the subject, you mention that one lad who tried to cross the border. Weren't there 19 lads who did go through the US's cracks and cause much more havoc? Ah I bet you never use BOS and JFK, so since it does not concern LAX we'll let them be.