asteriskceo
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:42 pm

JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:21 am

Would jetBlue have been more prosperous if they had used 737-700/800 instead of the A320? The 737 is much lighter and would have had better for some airport pairs, and airports with shorter runways (I.e-Burbank).I don't intend for this to be A vs. B, I'm just curious why they didn't use the NG. It seems to me that airlines that utilize 737's as their primary plane (I.e.-Southwest, Alaska) are flourishing.input?
 
TrappedinMKG
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:11 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:24 am

Without opening a can of worms, suffice it to say that B6 got a really good deal on their 320s.
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 2539
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:25 am

Sometimes it just comes down to who gives the better deal. For a new start-up airline with a limited amount of capital, the better deal on airplanes is most important. From what I heard, they did look at Boeing 737 1st, Airbus just offered a better deal and they couldnt refuse. In this case, any cost savings may have been outweighed by the cost of the airplanes they got from Airbus.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
asteriskceo
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:42 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:28 am

Yes, but it may hurt them in the long run. I hope these 190s will help them out.Putting 2 dollars in will get you further than 1.
 
LUV4JFK
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:46 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:30 am

I've heard that Boeing, at least at that time, did not usually take advantage of start-up airlines looking to buy aircraft. Maybe they felt that the airline would not have last long and payments might not be received. Can't confirm if that's true or not, but it was a rumor.

LUV4JFK
 yes 
John F. Kennedy International Airport: Where America Greets The World.
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 3):
Yes, but it may hurt them in the long run. I hope these 190s will help them out.

Have HP, NW or UA been hurt due to operating Airbus A32X family aircraft for many years? Get over it. And the Embraers are intended to fly to smaller airports, so can you please explain how exactly they "could help them out"??? And help them out from where? The A320s are not falling apart. *yawn*


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:39 am

UDO, yes they have been hurt. One is in bankruptcy, two are on the verge of going there.  Smile
 
asteriskceo
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:42 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:41 am

Udo-*yawn* too tired to read the post??I'm not saying they're falling apart, I'm saying that they are much heavier than the 737. UA, HP, and NW aren't utilizing ONLY the A320. UA and HP are using the 737, hun.
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 7):
UDO, yes they have been hurt. One is in bankruptcy, two are on the verge of going there.

And that happened because of the A320, I see...
Btw, NW and HP close to bankruptcy? Who told you that - Donald Duck?

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 8):
Udo-*yawn* too tired to read the post??I'm not saying they're falling apart

No you didn't, but it sounded as if the A320 would cause major trouble and the E190 is their only hope ...

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 8):
UA, HP, and NW aren't utilizing ONLY the A320.

But they are extremely satiesfied with the A32X series. That's the reason why they have permanently increased their orders.

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 8):
UA and HP are using the 737, hun.

Yeah, just strange that they have been sending masses of B737s to the desert or back to the lessor while the heavy A320s remain in service...

Btw, what's a "hun"?


Regards
Udo

[Edited 2005-04-22 21:51:50]
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
propilotjw
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 7):
UDO, yes they have been hurt. One is in bankruptcy, two are on the verge of going there.



Oh! Why didn't you tell us? Finally, we know the reason that airlines go into bankruptcy, they are operating the A320. haha thats a good one. JetBlue better start getting the papers ready HAHAHA
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:57 am

The 737NG wasn't available to UA when they wanted to buy it. Needless to say you can't blame the 32x on UAs or HPs bankruptcy, management is to blame there. Likewise you can't say that jetBlue or Frontier are succesful b/c they operate the 32x. There is an advantage to only operating one a/c type, but they are succesful b/c they have a very good buisness plan and offer great service on thier flights. Both jetBlue and Frontier were considering the 737NG (along with the 32x), but Airbus simply offered them a better deal and they took it.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:59 am

Quoting Asteriskceo (Thread starter):
Would jetBlue have been more prosperous if they had used 737-700/800 instead of the A320?

Well, B6 has stated the desire for what has been termed an A320.5, which would be about 738 sized. Also, they would likely have fewer issues with fuel stopping on BOS-LGB and the like

Quoting Asteriskceo (Thread starter):
The 737 is much lighter and would have had better for some airport pairs, and airports with shorter runways (I.e-Burbank).

It is not MUCH lighter, just lighter. Take off performance is similar for the aircraft

Quoting Asteriskceo (Thread starter):
I'm just curious why they didn't use the NG.

Well, David Neelman himself was shocked with their selection of Airbus. He had run 2 airlines that had all 737 fleets and he planned on 738s for B6 as well. It was a matter of Airbus coming to them with an excellent offer (yes, they still pay for the planes) and Boeing ignoring to a point. It was not as bad as what Boeing did with Frontier, but the combination of factors led them to going Airbus.

Quoting Asteriskceo (Thread starter):
It seems to me that airlines that utilize 737's as their primary plane (I.e.-Southwest, Alaska) are flourishing.input?

B6 and F9 are doing just fine as primarily A32S operators. Oh, and up until recently, AS has had a rather evenly split 737/MD-80 fleet

Quoting Udo (Reply 6):
Have HP, NW or UA been hurt due to operating Airbus A32X family aircraft for many years?

Well, I wont say it is due to A32S operation, but all 3 airlines have had more than their fair share of financial trouble

Quoting Udo (Reply 9):
Btw, NW and HP close to bankruptcy? Who told you that - Donald Duck?

No, but Daffy Duck told me that HP will be in deep trouble if they go ahead with anything more than an alliance with US.

Quoting Udo (Reply 9):
Yeah, just strange that they have been sending masses of B737s to the desert or back to the lessor while the heavy A320s remain in service...

Well, might have to do something with HP's 737 fleet being quite old and UA not having enough money to cover leasing costs and the need for the greater range of their A32S as compares to their 737Classics. HP has stated that the 733s are not going anywhere for quite a while.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
asteriskceo
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:42 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:28 am

Udo-You're misreading what I say. I am not saying the A320 hurts airlines, but running the A320 on every possible route (I.e-short, long haul) in MY opinion, there are different types of aircraft for a reason, to be utilized on different routes.Different versions of the 737 have proved useful on different routes, southwest ding ding ding.
 
richierich
Posts: 3295
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:42 am

Different versions of the 737 have proved useful on different routes, southwest ding ding ding

Not really, Asterisk. Southwest has different versions primarily because of the time they were purchased. They have -300s alongside -700s because so much of their fleet was comprised of -300s. Southwest would be thrilled if they could magically exchange all of their -300s for -700s but that is not the way it works. Obviously they have routes for the NG aircraft only (transcon, etc.) but ideally WN would love to have a single 737 fleet type.

As such, the A320 is also a very versatile aircraft. JetBlue has a mix of short-haul, medium-haul, and transcon routes, and the same A320 that comes off a BTV-JFK run can, in theory, load up with fuel and passengers and do a JFK-LGB flight. I realize there are limitations to what the A320 can do and certainly BOS-OAK is a stretch but it is my understanding that it is done routinely without any problems.

The E190 will allow JetBlue to tap into markets that are currently too small for a 150-seat A320. Some people think that adding a separate fleet type will sink JetBlue, others feel it will benefit the airline greatly by allowing it tap into markets not currently flown by its main competitors. As with the A320, I would expect JetBlue to operate the E190 on short, medium, and , well, longer routes. Certainly just about anywhere in Texas is within the E190's range from NYC.
None shall pass!!!!
 
ScottB
Posts: 5458
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 9):
Btw, NW and HP close to bankruptcy?

Actually, America West came very close to a bankruptcy filing immediately after September 11. Three weeks afterwards (as of 9/30/01), they were down to $145 million in cash and short-term investments with $127 million in current (due in the subsequent 90 days) debt -- and this is even after having received $60 million in compensation from the government for the airspace shutdown. America West made the following statement in its 3Q01 report: "If AWA is unsuccessful with its efforts to obtain additional financing and restructure its existing obligations, AWA’s liquidity position will be inadequate in the short term and the Company may be forced to file for bankruptcy protection."

If they hadn't received their guaranteed loans as quicky as they did (in January, 2002), America West would have been the first U.S. major to enter bankruptcy reorganization post-9/11.

As for Northwest, while they currently have adequate liquidity, the company's debt burden remains extremely high, with nearly $18 billion in long-term debt and lease obligations.
 
TedEx
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:29 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:44 am

How is AS doing - are they really flourishing? Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge AS fan - but I believe they're still losing money and running into some labor issues as they explore cost reductions and options such as using an outsourced ramp service vendor.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:02 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 9):
Btw, what's a "hun"?

That is a shortening for hunny, which is a coloquial spelling for honey.

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 13):
I am not saying the A320 hurts airlines, but running the A320 on every possible route (I.e-short, long haul) in MY opinion, there are different types of aircraft for a reason, to be utilized on different routes.

There are various versions of the A320 that are smaller. B6 felt that the A319 was too close in capacity and the A318 too heavy, so they chose the E190

Quoting Richierich (Reply 14):
Southwest has different versions primarily because of the time they were purchased. They have -300s alongside -700s because so much of their fleet was comprised of -300s. Southwest would be thrilled if they could magically exchange all of their -300s for -700s but that is not the way it works. Obviously they have routes for the NG aircraft only (transcon, etc.) but ideally WN would love to have a single 737 fleet type.

WN also has the 735, and just retired the 732.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 14):
I realize there are limitations to what the A320 can do and certainly BOS-OAK is a stretch but it is my understanding that it is done routinely without any problems.

They do BOS-LGB, though they have had problems with the westbound

Quoting TedEx (Reply 16):
How is AS doing - are they really flourishing?

They are actually making money

Quoting TedEx (Reply 16):
running into some labor issues as they explore cost reductions and options such as using an outsourced ramp service vendor.

Yeah, and outsourced MX, which really is a bad idea for them
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:10 am

This forum is soooo predictable! Wow. It gets so personal when it comes to critiquing other planes. The thread starter is just asking a question about airplanes- he is not attacking Airbus, the EU etc.!

Get over it.
 
N60659
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:24 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
They do BOS-LGB, though they have had problems with the westbound

Did you mean eastbound?
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
TedEx
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:29 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:19 am

Quoting N1120A
They are actually making money

(Sorry, this workstation has an old browser and I can't use the 'click to quote' function..)

Here's a quote from today's Seattle P-I:

Alaska Air Group Inc., operator of Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air, pledging to work toward trimming its expenses, said yesterday that its quarterly loss nearly doubled to $80.5 million.

The full text is available at:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/221147_alaska22.html
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:05 am

Its simple, Airbus offered JetBlue a fantastic deal and could accommodate JetBlue's delivery requirement, so JetBlue went with the A320 over the 738. Nothing more, nothing less, JetBlue's decision to go with Airbus was strictly a business decision, and a good one at that, and JetBlue did not make a mistake with the A320.

Somtimes members here at a.net make things far more complicated than they really are: the 738 and A320 offer just about the same capacity and offer just about the same performance, so although JetBlue originally intended to go with the 738, a great deal on the A320 was impossible for JetBlue to pass up.

And, the rumors that JetBlue did not, or has not paid for the A320s are simply not true......but JetBlue did get a great deal from Airbus.
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting LUV4JFK (Reply 4):
I've heard that Boeing, at least at that time, did not usually take advantage of start-up airlines looking to buy aircraft. Maybe they felt that the airline would not have last long and payments might not be received. Can't confirm if that's true or not, but it was a rumor.

It's not rumor. Boeing didn't deal with new entrants until recently. The purpose was to protect the aircraft and their established customers from being devalued.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:09 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 18):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
They do BOS-LGB, though they have had problems with the westbound

Did you mean eastbound?

No, I meant the westbound. The jet stream goes west to east.

Quoting TedEx (Reply 19):
Here's a quote from today's Seattle P-I:

Alaska Air Group Inc., operator of Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air, pledging to work toward trimming its expenses, said yesterday that its quarterly loss nearly doubled to $80.5 million.

I believe they did make money last year. Winter is often a down time for AS

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 20):
the 738 and A320 offer just about the same capacity and offer just about the same performance

10 seats makes a major difference, especially considering what B6 has said they want. They specifically said the A321 was too big and that they wanted something inbetween the A320 and A321. That would be a plane similar in size to the 738.

Also, the 738 does not have the same trouble as the A320 in doing transcons
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting Asteriskceo (Thread starter):
It seems to me that airlines that utilize 737's as their primary plane (I.e.-Southwest, Alaska) are flourishing.input?

Alaska "flourishing?" In spite of record 1Q 2005 pax numbers and load factor, they reported a loss of a "mere" $80 million for the quarter. Moreover, while they have more 737s than any other type, their current fleet also consists of 26 MD-80s.
 
777wt
Posts: 828
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:45 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:31 am

Have you read the book Flying High?

It says how B6 ended up with Airbus A320's.

David Needleman hired an CFO from Southwest and they went to Boeing, the CFO he hired told Boeing "This is the price we're willing to pay for the 737's, do you accept?" Boeing was hesitant and refused the price citing it was too low.

Then David and the hired CFO went to Airbus to try to leverage Boeing, They looked around the A320 while Airbus was razzing about it to them. Then the CFO asked Airbus if they will honor the price which they offered Boeing, Airbus was kinda hesitant but then asked what their airline is gonna be and etc.
Then David and the CFO said to Airbus "Have you ever sold an aircraft to an airline you question it's sucess?
Airbus said yes they have. The CFO said "well see, we're in the same position"
Airbus said they will accept their price and throw in one year free maintenance.

[Edited 2005-04-23 02:35:07]
 
TedEx
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:29 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:19 am

This should answer the question about how much Alaska has been making or losing:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=ALK&annual
 
musapapaya
Posts: 990
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:02 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:58 pm

How much heavier is a 320 compared to a 738? I wonder...
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:13 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 26):
How much heavier is a 320 compared to a 738? I wonder...

That is actually on a thread right now. A 738 is marginally heavier because it has more seats. It is something like 11kg lighter per seat than the A320 is, which translates to over 1 ton lighter.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
SuperDash
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:52 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:52 pm

Is the 320 a mistake? No. It's a great New York-Florida airplane. Is JetBlue using it right? No. It's a terrible trans-con plane. Fuel stops are the fastest way to making sure your customer base flies on someone else. Why does JetBlue have more seat pitch? Because on the long haul flights couldn't carry the load anyway. So take the seats out and act like it was in the name of customer service. Problem is that the extra seats work well on the Florida flights. But they ain't there.

The plane that is (could be) a mistake...that regional jet, the 190. Here's the problem, the 190 still has high regional jet costs (as does the 318). It has 100 seats, so that's good, but the JetBlue model is low fare, that's bad. The 70 seaters don't work well at the majors, but they have higher fares. So the 100 seaters with low fares is really similar to the 70 seaters at the majors. Tough to make money with. The 320 already has an 82% breakeven load factor. JetBlue will find out quickly that the 190 will be a great New York-Syracuse plane, but a lousy New York-Chicago plane. Problem 2, since the 190 is a regional jet, JetBlue will fly a lot of short haul flights and "feed" more of their 320 flights. That 82% breakeven load factor just went up. A passenger moving over 2 flights is less revenue per leg (lower average fare) than carrying them once. The 190s under the JetBlue model will likely have 80-120% breakeven load factor. Problem 3, unlike the king of low cost (Southwest), JetBlue will have to have 2 different pilot groups to fly their fleet. They are taking 320s as fast as 190s. A captain in training for the 190 will last less than 3 months and then upgrade to the 320. Trying to keep pilots trained will be a huge cost. And now they have to train 4 pilots each time a 320 comes on line. Trying to keep qualified pilots will be even more difficult and costly. Creating more pilot overtime and possible unrest. Problem 4, at some point JetBlue actually will have a 10 year captain (and have to pay a 10 year scale). Southwest has a breakeven load factor in the mid 60's and a fully unionized work group. JetBlue will only have more labor costs and if their pilots feel overworked, under appreciated or JetBlue continues to make money...guess what? Can you say union?

Yes a 6% profit margin is a good thing (it's a positive number), but JetBlue is running out of places to fly and they face a lot of increased costs and tough competition. They have a ton of planes on order. I am not saying JetBlue will start losing money, but the honeymoon is definitely ooohhhh-ver. If JetBlue doesn't learn fast....can you say "PeoplesExpress?"
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:46 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Well, I wont say it is due to A32S operation, but all 3 airlines have had more than their fair share of financial trouble

True, but the previous poster I replied to had suggested a relation between A320s and "hurt" airlines.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Well, might have to do something with HP's 737 fleet being quite old and UA not having enough money to cover leasing costs and the need for the greater range of their A32S as compares to their 737Classics. HP has stated that the 733s are not going anywhere for quite a while.

Again, I agree. But please check what the previous poster had said.

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 12):
Different versions of the 737 have proved useful on different routes, southwest ding ding ding.

Not really. They could standardize on the -700s, but wouldn't be easy to grow and in the same time replace almost 220 B737 classics.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
Actually, America West came very close to a bankruptcy filing immediately after September 11.

No doubt about it but that was not related to A320s operations. Just look at the post I was replying to.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
As for Northwest, while they currently have adequate liquidity, the company's debt burden remains extremely high, with nearly $18 billion in long-term debt and lease obligations.

See above.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
That is a shortening for hunny, which is a coloquial spelling for honey.

Thanks. So I should feel honored then?  Wink

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Yeah, and outsourced MX, which really is a bad idea for them

Why? If it helps to save costs.



Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10893
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:25 pm

Udo! Big grin

I wish I could find you in other threads beside A vs B!

B6 used Airbus because of the price. Boeing doesn't dropt their pants and Airbus would have done anything to get that deal.

I will say no more!

Udo,

You coming to NY for the Aug meet?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13502
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:47 pm

Quoting N1120A
They are actually making money

(Sorry, this workstation has an old browser and I can't use the 'click to quote' function..)

Here's a quote from today's Seattle P-I:

Alaska Air Group Inc., operator of Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air, pledging to work toward trimming its expenses, said yesterday that its quarterly loss nearly doubled to $80.5 million.



AS is actually doing reasonably well. If you'd bother to read their financial report for 1Q05 you'd see that the loss includes large one-time charges against the closure of their OAK heavy maintenance base and a few other charges.

Reason? AS is in negotiations with just about every contract group on the property and it's in their best interest to make their quarterly results look as bloody as possible to strengthen their bargaining position - it's easier to plead poverty to the unions when you can show large losses quarter after quarter.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ATLFlyer323
Posts: 489
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:01 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:20 pm

Who knows if the 737 would have been better suited for them, all we do know is they are doing perfectly fine with the A320's. With that said I don't think it would be possible to determine if they would have been better off choosing another aircraft because they simply didn't. I'm sure whatever decision they make will be profitable, considering they run a very fine airline.  Smile
~Brandon
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
JAM747
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:39 am

There are other factors apart from aircraft type which affects the profitablity of a airline. Maybe Jetblue's problem has more to do with other factors and aircraft type might only be a small factor.
 
CORULEZ05
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:39 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:24 am

Considering the similarities between the airplanes, it comes down to who gave the better deal. And of course it looks like Airbus won! When an airline is starting up, they are going to look for the best deal out there and well they only had two choices. Either Airbus or Boeing and well Airbus beat Boeing at it. I mean you could also argue, why would an american carrier choose their only aircraft type to be made by a foreign manufacturer  Big grin. Same thing, company offering the better deal got the business.
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting SuperDash (Reply 28):
The plane that is (could be) a mistake...that regional jet, the 190. Here's the problem, the 190 still has high regional jet costs (as does the 318). It has 100 seats, so that's good, but the JetBlue model is low fare, that's bad.

Neeleman himself has said that he has bet jetBlue on the 190s. Once the 190s are delivered and in service, it probably won't take long to see which way his bet goes. Very good points by SuperDash as to why it may be a losing bet. In any event, it will be interesting to see what happens.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting SuperDash (Reply 28):
The plane that is (could be) a mistake...that regional jet, the 190. Here's the problem, the 190 still has high regional jet costs (as does the 318). It has 100 seats, so that's good, but the JetBlue model is low fare, that's bad

Problem is the 190 is considered a mainline jet and not a regional!

Quoting SuperDash (Reply 28):
but JetBlue is running out of places to fly

You can not be serious saying they are running out of places to fly? Have you ever heard of the Midwest?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
funflyer
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:53 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
Sometimes it just comes down to who gives the better deal. For a new start-up airline with a limited amount of capital, the better deal on airplanes is most important. From what I heard, they did look at Boeing 737 1st, Airbus just offered a better deal and they couldnt refuse. In this case, any cost savings may have been outweighed by the cost of the airplanes they got from Airbus.

Yeah so would that mean that Airbus could, not would, need to make some cut-backs in making the airplane, right? I think so.
Who cares about status?
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:08 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 29):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
That is a shortening for hunny, which is a coloquial spelling for honey.

Thanks. So I should feel honored then?

That depends on whether TWFirst says the same to you.  Big grin

Quoting Udo (Reply 29):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Yeah, and outsourced MX, which really is a bad idea for them


Why? If it helps to save costs.

Except that it really doesn't. First, you lose economies of scale. Second, the groups they have decided to go with have a decidedly unfavorable record. They are no Aeroman/LH Technik/Air Canada
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
trident2e
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:38 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 6):
One is in bankruptcy, two are on the verge of going there

So don't they fly Boeing aircraft?
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting SuperDash (Reply 28):
Is the 320 a mistake? No. It's a great New York-Florida airplane. Is JetBlue using it right? No. It's a terrible trans-con plane. Fuel stops are the fastest way to making sure your customer base flies on someone else

Is this to say that jetBlue has had to make occasional unscheduled fuel stops on their non-stop transcon routes? If so, do not airlines who fly 737NGs on transcon non-stops need likewise need to occasionally do the same?

Closely as I follow airline and airliner news, I have never heard that lack of true U.S. transcon range with full payload is an issue for A320 or 737NG types. Have I missed something somewhere?
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13476
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 5):
UDO, yes they have been hurt. One is in bankruptcy, two are on the verge of going there.

Yes, unlike DL, CO and AA who operate all Boeing fleets and are making such big profits.  sarcastic 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting TrappedInMKG (Reply 1):
Without opening a can of worms, suffice it to say that B6 got a really good deal on their 320s.

I'll second that!

Quoting Udo (Reply 5):
Have HP, NW or UA been hurt due to operating Airbus A32X family aircraft for many years?

The last I checked, HP is doing ok, NW is on the edge and UA is in bankruptcy.

Quoting Udo (Reply 5):
Get over it.

Dude......relax.... Take a deep breath, this is not an A vs. B forum. This was only a simple and reasonable question.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Well, David Neelman himself was shocked with their selection of Airbus. He had run 2 airlines that had all 737 fleets and he planned on 738s for B6 as well. It was a matter of Airbus coming to them with an excellent offer (yes, they still pay for the planes) and Boeing ignoring to a point. It was not as bad as what Boeing did with Frontier, but the combination of factors led them to going Airbus.

I think we found our anwser!

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Quoting TedEx (Reply 16):
How is AS doing - are they really flourishing?

They are actually making money

If they are actually making money then why are they threating to lay off their ramp workers in SEA? The situation doesnt add-up, I smell a rat!

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
Winter is often a down time for AS

Not when leaving ANC/FAI in the winter-time. Those flights are always full of snowbirds heading south for the winter.

But as for the A320 topic at hand, the A320 has nothing to do with NW, HP and UA's troubles. The poster just wanted to know why B6 went with Airbus instead of Boeing, thats all.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
asteriskceo
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:42 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 42):
The poster just wanted to know why B6 went with Airbus instead of Boeing, thats all.

Actually, I was wondering what jetBlue would have been like with the 737NG, would they be in the financial trouble they are in now?

I love Airbus and Boeing, and I did not intend for this to be A VS. B. I have talked with several jetBlue employees and they all tell me that the 737 would have been a much better choice for the airline.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 43):
would they be in the financial trouble they are in now?

Jetblue in "financial trouble"? Last I heard was that their profits had dropped - but that they were still profitable: how's that "financial trouble"?

Or have I missed releases in which they said that they were losing money?

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 43):
Actually, I was wondering what jetBlue would have been like with the 737NG, would they be in the financial trouble they are in now?

Since when is a profit financial trouble?

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 43):
I have talked with several jetBlue employees and they all tell me that the 737 would have been a much better choice for the airline.

Were these employees managers, pilots or who?


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 43):
Actually, I was wondering what jetBlue would have been like with the 737NG, would they be in the financial trouble they are in now?

My guess is we will never know, that is until (If ever..) B6 does make a firm order for some 737NGs then we will see how it racks up. But then again, we will never know....

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 43):
love Airbus and Boeing, and I did not intend for this to be A VS. B.

Oh, I know. Dont worry about it. I know exactly where you were coming from.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:56 am

Sorry but I have to say this A320s are better for 4 to 5 hour routes than 73G/8s. The A320s are very quiet and cabin environment is better.
 
galapagapop
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:15 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 41):
Yes, unlike DL, CO and AA who operate all Boeing fleets and are making such big profits. sarcastic

AA is making money with that all-Boeing fleet funny guy....
 
asteriskceo
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:42 pm

RE: JetBlue Mistake?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 45):
Since when is a profit financial trouble?

Try some research

Quoting Udo (Reply 45):
Were these employees managers, pilots or who?

Pilots and some supervisors