art
Posts: 2665
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:09 am

I know nothing at all about this and therefore ask the question: would A380's be amenable to a PAX skywards / packets earthwards configuration? Would suit thin PAX, fat freight routes. There seems to be a convenient physical separation in the 2 floor design which might be open to this form of configuration.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:11 am

No, because you waste too much space compared to weight uplift
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
art
Posts: 2665
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
No, because you waste too much space compared to weight uplift

I don't understand. Could you explain a little, please?
 
patroni
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 1999 7:49 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:59 am

The flows of passenger and cargo often differ. You have many routes which have only cargo demand but no pax demand at all and vice versa. On top the cargo business is uni-directional. A passenger usually returns, the cargo stays at the destination. If you take e.g. the Europe-Asia market, you have lots of freight from Asia to Europe. In the other direction the demand is very low however. So if going nonstop you would carry a main deck ful with hot air. Cargo carriers can compensate for that by choosing different routings for the east- and westbound sectors, e.g by adding one or two commercial stops on the eastbound flight to fill at least some space, but this would of course be unpopular with the passengers. For most airlines the passengers side has the bigger influence, so cargo will be left with a suboptimal solution.

Cheers,
Tom
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:05 am

Quoting Art (Reply 2):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
No, because you waste too much space compared to weight uplift

I don't understand. Could you explain a little, please?

The large of the two passenger cabins on the A380 is the lower deck. You waste a whole bunch of space putting cargo down there. Putting it upstairs would likely never be certified.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
art
Posts: 2665
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:10 am

Patroni, N1120A thank you for your explanations.

[Edited 2005-04-23 02:14:33]
 
yul332LX
Posts: 798
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:15 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting Art (Thread starter):
There seems to be a convenient physical separation in the 2 floor design which might be open to this form of configuration.

It's probably doable (the certification might be an issue though).

However, I think this is a case where airlines will prefer the flexibility and simply send an A330/767/777 and MD11F/74F to do the job.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:37 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
The large of the two passenger cabins on the A380 is the lower deck. You waste a whole bunch of space putting cargo down there.

Airbus once had an interior configuration on thier website that showed a combi version of the A388. It indeed had passengers on the upper deck and cargo on the main deck.

N1120, I don't quite understand your statement saying that putting cargo on the main deck would be a waste of space. Whatever the configuration, airlines will find a way to pack in passeners and/or cargo in every possible inch. A lot of cargo will fit on the main deck of the A388F/Combi.

Regards
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:51 pm

Found a link, but not for the combi......

http://www.airbus.com/product/a380f_cabin_layouts.asp
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
art
Posts: 2665
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 6):
Quoting Art (Thread starter):
There seems to be a convenient physical separation in the 2 floor design which might be open to this form of configuration.

It's probably doable (the certification might be an issue though).

Why would the certification be an issue?
 
kl911
Posts: 3979
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting Patroni (Reply 3):
The flows of passenger and cargo often differ. You have many routes which have only cargo demand but no pax demand at all and vice versa. On top the cargo business is uni-directional. A passenger usually returns, the cargo stays at the destination. If you take e.g. the Europe-Asia market, you have lots of freight from Asia to Europe. In the other direction the demand is very low however.

You better start talking to KLM, their Combi's are cashcows, in both directions... I can see KLM ordering the 380 Combi if they ever order one anyway..

KL911
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17049
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting Art (Reply 9):

Why would the certification be an issue?

The FAA has been unwilling to certify new combis. They have refused to certify any combi with cargo and pax on the same floor. So perhaps they have issues with the whole combi on two decks idea.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
kl911
Posts: 3979
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
They have refused to certify any combi with cargo and pax on the same floor.

Which wouldn't be the case for the A380... I don't see any problems.

KL911
 
patroni
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 1999 7:49 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 10):
You better start talking to KLM, their Combi's are cashcows, in both directions...

IMHO this will only work for a very limited number of citypairs (probably AMS-SFO/LAX etc). But of course you can always fill freighter capacity by dropping the rates. Just check the market rates AMS-JFK vs. JFK-AMS or AMS-HKG vs. HKG-AMS...

Cheers,
Tom
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:43 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 7):
N1120, I don't quite understand your statement saying that putting cargo on the main deck would be a waste of space. Whatever the configuration, airlines will find a way to pack in passeners and/or cargo in every possible inch. A lot of cargo will fit on the main deck of the A388F/Combi.


I think he's implying that the max gross weight would be maxed out long before the lower deck capacity would be maxed out.
PHX based
 
art
Posts: 2665
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:05 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 14):
A lot of cargo will fit on the main deck of the A388F/Combi.


I think he's implying that the max gross weight would be maxed out long before the lower deck capacity would be maxed out.

Don't understand this comment: if the weight of PAX upstairs results in the plane maxing out before the lower deck is fully utilised for freight, would it not also be the case that maximum gross weight would be reached before you could load a full complement of PAX downstairs instead of freight? ie normal all PAX configuration

[Edited 2005-04-24 13:08:05]
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17049
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:34 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 15):
Quoting 777STL (Reply 14):
A lot of cargo will fit on the main deck of the A388F/Combi.


I think he's implying that the max gross weight would be maxed out long before the lower deck capacity would be maxed out.

Don't understand this comment: if the weight of PAX upstairs results in the plane maxing out before the lower deck is fully utilised for freight, would it not also be the case that maximum gross weight would be reached before you could load a full complement of PAX downstairs instead of freight? ie normal all PAX configuration

No, because cargo is more dense than pax.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
JRadier
Posts: 3943
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Putting it upstairs would likely never be certified.

why not? Full freighters will also have freight on the upper deck, so floorstrenght isn't an issue.

Quoting Patroni (Reply 13):
IMHO this will only work for a very limited number of citypairs (probably AMS-SFO/LAX etc

So that is why KLM around 10 combi's. So your humble opinion isn't correct. KL911 is correct, the 744M's are very profitable for KLM.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
patroni
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 1999 7:49 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:22 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 17):
So that is why KLM around 10 combi's. So your humble opinion isn't correct. KL911 is correct, the 744M's are very profitable for KLM.

Show me where KLM says that their 74M is profitable for them. Your or KL911's opinion is no measure. And did you check the freight yields on the routes I mentioned?

Cheers,
Tom

[Edited 2005-04-25 00:22:52]
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6408
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?

Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:29 am

An A380 Combi could be made, but it's not in the tube today, and will probably never be.

There are two rather different A380 versions being produced. The pax A380 and the A380F freighter.

The pax version is a long range plane with a modest payload - say 60 tonnes or so.

The freighter version is a medium range plane with a payload capability up to 150 tonnes.

To fly a pax A380 long distance with, say 30 tonnes pax load and 30 tonnes cargo would not make sense. A pax A340 plus a dedicated cargo plane (say B-757PF) accepting a fuel stop would be much more economical and be much more flexible in operation.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cougar15, CRJ900, Gemuser, Google [Bot], lightsaber, rutankrd, seahawk, Spacepope, YYZAMS and 241 guests