mham001
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AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:42 am

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1086485.cms

A clip of the article:


Airbus has written to civil aviation secretary Ajay Prasad and to at
least two more officials of the ministry, apart from all A-I board
members about the alleged 'unfair' evaluation. Highly-placed sources
in the ministry said the main charge of Airbus relates to the Boeing
B787 being considered with nine seats in a row in the economy class
instead of the usual eight.

This gives the B787 at least 20 seats more, pushing Airbus A330-200
out of the race in the 200-seater category of medium capacity long
range (MCLR) aircraft.

The seat width was modified in the request for proposal (RFP)
documents to allow B787 the '9-abreast' configuration, instead of the
nor-mal practice of having only eight seats in a row. Airbus has
alleged that all B787 customers, including Continental, Air New
Zealand, Japan Airlines and Vietnam Airlines are going by the '8-
abreast' configuration. The Europe-based aircraft manufacturer has
said A-I evaluation is not done on an equal footing.

The communications to civil aviation ministry officials state that
the B787 should not have been considered in the first place since the
air-craft will not be available till the end of 2008 while the A-I
bid terms stipulate that deliveries should begin by 2007-08.
Questions have been raised about the delivery schedule since Boeing
has already sold 200 B787s, the sources said.
 
karan69
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:44 am

The story continuoes
 
boac707
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:54 am

Sounds like someone hit an Airbus nerve...almost sounds desparate, and premature...
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mrniji
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
Airbus has written to civil aviation secretary Ajay Prasad and to at
least two more officials of the ministry, apart from all A-I board
members about the alleged 'unfair' evaluation.

Airbus (as much I like them and prefer them over Boeing) should shut up. It is up to AI (and the corupt GOI) to decide whom they favor.. if Boeing makes a modified and better offer, way to go Boeing. I hope this won't end in a saga.. to reiterate.. it is up to AI to decide, according to their own criteria - if it does not make sense for Airbus.. sorry, dudes
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misbeehavin
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:05 am

Of course it is "unfair" - but that's how politics works. Deal with it.
 
atmx2000
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
Airbus (as much I like them and prefer them over Boeing) should shut up.

I know you have a preference for the A340 over the 777, but on what basis could you say you prefer the A330 over the 787, since the latter hasn't flown yet?

Anyway, I wonder if they are considering using 9 abreast seating on all routes or just some routes?
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727EMflyer
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:22 am

If boeing can offer to squeeze 9 abreast in a 787 (a terrible thing I admit), then why can't airbus do the same in an A330? Come on! If your opponent is going to fight dirty, fight dirty back! This sounds like desperation on A's part to me. The A330 has out-classed the 767 and given a blow or two to the 777 and now they've grown fat resting on their laurels. Now boeing has such a better product that an airline is willing to wait and Airbus is going to do nothing more than throw a tantrum.
 
maddy
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
Of course it is "unfair" - but that's how politics works. Deal with it.

And Boeing crys about subsidies!?!?!
 
MidnightMike
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:40 am

Quoting Maddy (Reply 7):
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
Of course it is "unfair" - but that's how politics works. Deal with it.

And Boeing crys about subsidies!?!?!

I thought that Airbus does not receive subsidies?
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N1120A
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:47 am

Wait a second? EK flies 777s with 10 abreast all the time, eventhough most carriers fly them with 9. The 787 has plenty of fuselage width for 9 abreast, and the aircraft is being designed with both 8 and 9 abreast configurations in mind, so how in the world can Airbus claim that this is unfair? That makes no sense at all.
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avek00
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:49 am

There is only ONE way to solve this - the fleet acquisition process MUST begin anew, with the Technical Committee conducting a fresh analysis of ALL the planes suitable for the order. I shall await hearing the results sometime in 2007.  Smile

[Edited 2005-04-24 20:52:08]
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knoxibus
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting Maddy (Reply 7):
And Boeing crys about subsidies!?!?!

Relevance to the post please????

Anyway,

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
The seat width was modified in the request for proposal (RFP)
documents to allow B787 the '9-abreast' configuration,

I mean it was in the RFP, so the marketing guys at A should deal with it!

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
the B787 should not have been considered in the first place since the
air-craft will not be available till the end of 2008 while the A-I
bid terms stipulate that deliveries should begin by 2007-08.

Now this is more troublesome, I guess AI can wait two more years before expanding/renewing their fleet.

Knowing the lengthy process of Indian administration and decisions making (no harms done guys, I live in France!!!), I would think it's actually good timing. wink 
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Leskova
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:55 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
so how in the world can Airbus claim that this is unfair?

Since none of us has seen the RFP documents, no-one can be absolutely sure about the background of the complaint, but I'm guessing it has something to do with this:

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
The seat width was modified in the request for proposal (RFP) documents to allow B787 the '9-abreast' configuration

The question could be: when was the seat width modified?

In any case - I wish both companies would get over this letter-writing nonsense: if someone surprises you with something like this, catch them on the wrong foot by offering something else that the customer needs - complaining will hardly give you a better position.

Win on merit - not because the people making the decisions are tired of hearing your complaints.

Both companies have proven again and again that they are capable of winning on merit, both have proven that they're capable of complaining...

And if the B787 is wide enough to accommodate passengers in a 9 abreast config, then it's completely legitimate for Boeing to propose using this config: if the seat- and aisle-width don't drop below what an A330 or A340 would offer with 8 abreast seating, it's completely understandable that Boeing is offering it.

If, on the other hand, the RFP wanted an 8 abreast config with Boeing later being given the opportunity to offer 9 abreast, without Airbus being able to react to that (in whichever way), then I can certainly see why Airbus would be unhappy with the situation.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
IDAWA
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:01 am

As long as they manage to evacuate the plane in 90 seconds with half of the exits, and they don't exceed MTOW/MZFW, they may squeeze as many passengers as they want into the 787. It will be up to the passengers to choose if the legroom/seat width is enough or not. And up to Airbus to squeeze as many seats as they want into the A330.

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TexasLonghorn
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:01 am

There's nothing UNFAIR about Boeing meeting the request of an airline to add more seats. This is business, and Boeing is doing what it needs to in order to sell its product.

It seems like it woud be expensive to design and manufacture a seat of new width for just several planes. Is it worthwhile for Boeing do do this? Those will be some cramped flights.
 
atmx2000
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting Maddy (Reply 7):
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
Of course it is "unfair" - but that's how politics works. Deal with it.

And Boeing crys about subsidies!?!?!

I didn't write that

Quoting 727EMflyer (Reply 6):
If boeing can offer to squeeze 9 abreast in a 787 (a terrible thing I admit), then why can't airbus do the same in an A330?



Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
The 787 has plenty of fuselage width for 9 abreast, and the aircraft is being designed with both 8 and 9 abreast configurations in mind, so how in the world can Airbus claim that this is unfair?

Anyone have the actual cabin width numbers? I recall that the 787 would have thinner walls, so the interior diameter would be greater than would be suggested by the increased exterior diameter. 10" (4" from external width and 6" from internal gains would be enough to make shaving a bearable inch from each of the 8 wider 787 seats.
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tinpusher007
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting 727EMflyer (Reply 6):
The A330 has out-classed the 767

True...

Quoting 727EMflyer (Reply 6):
and given a blow or two to the 777

Since when?
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
N1120A
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 15):
Anyone have the actual cabin width numbers? I recall that the 787 would have thinner walls, so the interior diameter would be greater than would be suggested by the increased exterior diameter. 10" (4" from external width and 6" from internal gains would be enough to make shaving a bearable inch from each of the 8 wider 787 seats.

224" fusealge cross section last I checked

Quoting Leskova (Reply 12):
And if the B787 is wide enough to accommodate passengers in a 9 abreast config, then it's completely legitimate for Boeing to propose using this config: if the seat- and aisle-width don't drop below what an A330 or A340 would offer with 8 abreast seating, it's completely understandable that Boeing is offering it.

I am sure the seat and aisle width drop below the A330/A340 on the 777's in 10 abreast, but that does not stop EK from offering them or Boeing for certifying it.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
atmx2000
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
224" fusealge cross section last I checked


Is that cabin width, because the external fuselage width is 226"?

The A330 cabin width is 208" for comparison.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
B747-437B
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:29 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 12):
Since none of us has seen the RFP documents

Actually, a link to the RFP documents were posted on this website sometime around August-September last year. Like all Air India tenders, you can find them online at http://www.airindia.in while they are active.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:44 am

Boo hoo...Airbus needs to grow up and realize they aren't entitled to every order.

And even if it was "unfair" as Airbus puts it, that is for the people paying for the airplanes to decide and not the people selling them.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:53 am

OMG. An Indian newspaper puts fifty lines on the net, and all hell breaks lose here at a.net.

Of course the procurement dept at AI knows about every inch and how many millimeters they accept as minimum for a seat. And of course they have a calculator which can divide by numbers like 8 or 9.

Of course 9 abreast on a 330 is senseless.
And of course 8 abreast on a 330 is more comfu than 9 on a dreamliner.
And of course 8 abreast on a dreamliner is more comfu than 8 on a 330.
And of course AI can put any number of seats in, up to the certification limit.
And here the story end.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
B747-437B
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:54 am

I find it somewhat ironic that Airbus is doing this when the Boeing deal won't even be endorsed by the board until Tuesday.  rotfl 
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
B747-437B
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 21):
Of course the procurement dept at AI knows about every inch and how many millimeters they accept as minimum for a seat. And of course they have a calculator which can divide by numbers like 8 or 9.

Easy there boy. You're jumping to conclusions you don't neccessarily know are true!  Wink
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
WestWing
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:05 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 22):
when the Boeing deal won't even be endorsed by the board until Tuesday.

Lets say the AI board approves the aircraft acquisition plan this Tuesday. I assume several Ministry of Civil Aviation bigshots sit on the AI board. So, in theory, if the AI board approves of the plan on Tuesday, the Ministry would too. After this, would full Parliamentary approval need to be obtained ?
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
 
B747-437B
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting WestWing (Reply 24):
So, in theory, if the AI board approves of the plan on Tuesday, the Ministry would too. After this, would full Parliamentary approval need to be obtained ?

The whole deal has already been cleared all the way up and down the food chain for all practical purposes. All that is required is to shuffle the paperwork and affix the myriad rubber stamps required.

You will see just how fast the GoI is capable of getting things done when they put their minds to it. July-August is the target date to make it official.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
777ER
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:32 am

AI are chosing the aircraft that bets suit their operations and it sounds like Boeing best meets their requirments. It is upto the airlines to decide how many seats are in their aircraft. If Airbus can't handle that then tough luck. Airbus should stop their boo hoo atitude and fight harder for the deal, without crying to the members of parliament
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satx
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:40 am

Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 4):
Of course it is "unfair" - but that's how politics works. Deal with it.

I suppose this is how they're "dealing with it."

Quoting 727EMflyer (Reply 6):
If your opponent is going to fight dirty, fight dirty back!

Is this from the 'two wrongs make a right' school of thought?

Quoting IDAWA (Reply 13):
It will be up to the passengers to choose if the legroom/seat width is enough or not.

Well, the passengers don't have many options today as it is. Unless of course you're referring to the First Class seat that's just a few measly dollars pricier.

Quoting TexasLonghorn (Reply 14):
There's nothing UNFAIR about Boeing meeting the request of an airline to add more seats. This is business, and Boeing is doing what it needs to in order to sell its product.

All's fair in love, war, and business it would seem.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 20):
And even if it was "unfair" as Airbus puts it, that is for the people paying for the airplanes to decide and not the people selling them.

Um, that is who will be deciding it. Where in this post does it say that Airbus has been given control over the decision process? I seemed to have missed that part.
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bennett123
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:02 am

Surely if Boeing and AI are happy with 9 abreast, then no problem. I assume that the certification limit has not been exceeded. Does the certification limit just specify seat numbers or configuration/width/pitch as well.

As for availability dates, it does sound as if AI have moved the goalposts since last year. Has AI given any reason for the change.

Is 2008 when the first B787 is available or are delivery positions available in 2008.

I wonder what misbehavin and frienlyskies would say if they had included Airbus in the same way. It seems that when Airbus gets any advantage then it's off to the WTO, when Boeing do then it's just business.
 
atmx2000
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:22 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 28):
Surely if Boeing and AI are happy with 9 abreast, then no problem. I assume that the certification limit has not been exceeded. Does the certification limit just specify seat numbers or configuration/width/pitch as we

Aren't the charter airlines going to use a 9 abreast arrangement?

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 28):
As for availability dates, it does sound as if AI have moved the goalposts since last year. Has AI given any reason for the change.

Moving the goal posts may make sense if you are talking about a one year difference in EIS for an expensive piece of equipment that is supposed to last twenty to thirty years. If you think waiting a year or two may get you a much better next generation product with lower operating costs that will make obsolete an older aircraft family you were considering, you would be fools for not having the flexibility to adjust the time frame for acqusition.
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NAV20
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:27 am

Looks like Airbus are desperate to head off Boeing - particularly the 787 - by any means. This says that they are using top-level EU political lobbying as well.

"Poland pressed to go European - The Polish government claims it is being pressured by the leaders of Britain, France and Germany to buy aircraft from Europe-based Airbus rather than US-based Boeing.

According to the Polish government, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder had had all sent letters to the Polish Prime Minister, Marek Belka, urging the country to support Airbus when buying new planes for national airline, LOT Polish Airlines.

LOT is aiming to renew its Boeing 767 fleet from next year.


http://www.travelbiz.com.au/articles/e9/0c02d1e9.asp
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N754PR
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:31 am

Boeing and the USA are always crying like babies, why can't Airbus?
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FriendlySkies
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:51 am

It's really sad when politics have to decide what equipment an airline should use. Every airline should use what's best for them, not what's best for their country's own interests.
 
misbeehavin
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:24 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 32):
It's really sad when politics have to decide what equipment an airline should use. Every airline should use what's best for them, not what's best for their country's own interests

I concur. But if an airline is state owned, such as Air India or LOT (see NAV20's post above) politics will play a big part. There's no way around it.

Even if the carrier's not state owned, politice will stick its ugly, unwanted nose in. Remember the time there was speculation that the newly privatized El Al might buy Airbus? So many American members were crying foul it was hilarious!
 
727EMflyer
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:57 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 16):


Quoting 727EMflyer (Reply 6):
and given a blow or two to the 777

Since when?

IIRC NW gave the 777 consideration when the A340 deal fell through. That's one. Granted I am not a scholar of airline bidding and purchasing, but certainly some airline executives have decided the 767 was too small or couldn't take the cargo then looked at the 777 and decided it was too much before settling on the A330.
 
N60659
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:48 pm

Pitting the A330 against the 787 (assuming Boeing delivers everything it has promised, which I think they will) has a lot more significant pitfalls for Airbus than 9-abreast seating. In this particular instance, I think the A330 is simply outgunned.
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Alitalia744
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:42 pm

Does Airbus bitch when charter airlines put 9 abreast in the A330? I'm sorry...Pot, meet Kettle.
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LH423
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:48 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daniel Hamer



So I'm guessing Airbus would have recommended that Monarch NOT do this?

LH423
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DfwRevolution
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:53 pm

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 21):
And of course 8 abreast on a 330 is more comfu than 9 on a dreamliner.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that yet. There are a whole lot more comfort features being built into the 787 that the A330/A350 will completly lack. Not to mention, the seat widths of a A330 (8 abreast) and a 787 (9 abreast) would likely go down to fractions of an inch... not like a huge drop in service level.

What's a real bitch about a 787-8 in 9-abreast is it puts the aircraft on the same capacity level as the A350-800 while at the same time offering *much* lower trip cost, etc.
 
Leskova
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:12 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 30):
Poland pressed to go European - The Polish government claims it is being pressured by the leaders of Britain, France and Germany to buy aircraft from Europe-based Airbus rather than US-based Boeing.

Once again, when it comes to Airbus, you - NAV20 - only see one side: the other side is the known fact that the Government of the US, if I recall correctly then it was President George W. Bush himself who "endorsed" a deal with Boeing, put pressure on Poland as well to buy Boeings.

Both companies have shown again and again that they are, unfortunately, not above using these means to secure deals - neither one comes out clean on this matter.

Regards,
Frank
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HAWK21M
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
Airbus (as much I like them and prefer them over Boeing) should shut up. It is up to AI (and the corupt GOI) to decide whom they favor.. if Boeing makes a modified and better offer, way to go Boeing. I hope this won't end in a saga.. to reiterate.. it is up to AI to decide, according to their own criteria - if it does not make sense for Airbus.. sorry, dudes

Exactly the GOI decides,not necessary on merit  Smile Although its publically stated so.
Roy would have loved to coment on this thread.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 10):
There is only ONE way to solve this - the fleet acquisition process MUST begin anew, with the Technical Committee conducting a fresh analysis of ALL the planes suitable for the order. I shall await hearing the results sometime in 2007.

2007 is too quick  Smile

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 22):
I find it somewhat ironic that Airbus is doing this when the Boeing deal won't even be endorsed by the board until Tuesday.

Its Panic obviously.Considering the Size of the order.

regds
MEL
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NAV20
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:57 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 39):
Once again, when it comes to Airbus, you - NAV20 - only see one side...

Interesting reaction, Leskova  

Why is it necessary to 'see both sides'? This is a matter of business and 'consumer preference', not some sort of soccer match. If I expressed a preference for one make of car over another, would you accuse me of somehow being unfair?

From a relatively informed position, and for reasons that I have stated, I much prefer travelling in Boeings, and avoid Airbus or MD products. So I am happy to see Boeing winning such a large number of orders at the expense of Airbus; and apparently competing successfully for those orders with every aeroplane in the Airbus range. Boeing are beginning to succeed big-time because, for the moment, they are producing better, more cost-effective aeroplanes than their main competitor; just as Airbus did a few years ago.

Good luck to them; and lets hope that the competition eventually spurs Airbus into designing and producing even better aeroplanes than Boeing's current crop, to the benefit of us all. That's what business competition is (or should be) about.

If, on the other hand, Airbus reacts by falling back on the politicians and demanding that they use subsidies and political blackmail to keep Airbus' current range alive, that can only result in many travellers having to put up with flying in third-rate, out-of-date designs for years to come; which will do no good for anyone. And the signs are that that is what is happening.

[Edited 2005-04-25 08:04:48]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
mrniji
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:44 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
I know you have a preference for the A340 over the 777, but on what basis could you say you prefer the A330 over the 787, since the latter hasn't flown yet?

My friend, where did I say that? AI should decide on eco-technical criteria 9which is available by now)

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 40):
Exactly the GOI decides,not necessary on merit

Yes, I agree.. if politics were the sole factor, AI should go with Airbus, considering that the US is the only of 5 veto powers not backing India's claim for a permanent seat in the UNSC. (please read my if). And selling the F16 to PAK and the F18 to India.. what the heck do the US want?? Giving us equipment (in the name of the war against terror) to fight?

if Political economy is a criteria.. please go with Boeing! European economy will be the big looser of glibalization, hence a partnership with the US has to be preferred.

I prefer none of these two approaches . AI should evaluate according to tech-eco criteria.. and if Boeing makes the better offer, even if it is modified: no need for Airbus to complain, please!
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atmx2000
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:09 pm

Quoting MrNiji (Reply 42):
My friend, where did I say that? AI should decide on eco-technical criteria 9which is available by now)

Well I was assuming that you preferred Airbus aircraft for some particular reason other than it was an Airbus aicraft.

Quoting MrNiji (Reply 42):
if politics were the sole factor, AI should go with Airbus considering that the US is the only of 5 veto powers not backing India's claim for a permanent seat in the UNSC.

But that has little to do with opposing India and more to do with certain prickly nations. And you can't consider political issues without weighing the political aspects of the trade relationship, including anti-outsourcing sentiment in the US, which if not countered would negatively impact India's IT industry.

Quoting MrNiji (Reply 42):
And selling the F16 to PAK and the F18 to India.. what the heck do the US want?? Giving us equipment (in the name of the war against terror) to fight?

And France sells submarines to both Pakistan and India.
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mrniji
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:13 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 43):
Well I was assuming that you preferred Airbus aircraft for some particular reason other than it was an Airbus aicraft.

as a customer, I prefer the 340 over the 777 (smoother). that does not mean that I don't like Boeing They are both amazing, I like them both, only a small Airbus preference!  Wink

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 43):
And France sells submarines to both Pakistan and India.

Good point! So, tech-ecos should be the only criteria! The bottomline is that Airbus should make a better offer if they think that this process was unfair!

Cheers
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
trident2e
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:39 pm

Airbus should leave this kind of winging and whining to the experts at Boeing.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:53 pm

Maybe Reasons for a Particular Decision should be made Public  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:20 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 22):
I find it somewhat ironic that Airbus is doing this when the Boeing deal won't even be endorsed by the board until Tuesday

Exactly! I thought the Board were to meet Tuesday. Let's wait and see  Wink

Regards
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atmx2000
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:42 pm

Quoting Trident2e (Reply 45):
Airbus should leave this kind of winging and whining to the experts at Boeing.

I think they already are experts at whining: see ANA narrowbody deal and A320 phase out.
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astuteman
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RE: AI-Airbus Crys "unfair"

Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:11 pm

I can understand (and dislike) charters putting 9 abreast in A330 over medium haul distances.
I find it extraordinary that AI think it is sensible to put 9-abreast in an aircraft the size of a 787 over distances of 8000 miles or so. Ouch

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