QFA001
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GE Wins 747Adv Power

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:43 pm

The sole supplier deal for the 747Adv has gone to GE.

Click here
 
United Airline
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:49 pm

Not very good. That limits airlines' choices.
 
United Airline
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:52 pm

Why do they need to sign an exclusive deal anyway?

Any chances for RR and P&W? I am sure they can if there is a large demand in the future.
 
phollingsworth
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 2):
Why do they need to sign an exclusive deal anyway?

Money, Money, Money! My guess is that, like the 772LR/773ER program GE has ponied up development money for the aircraft. That means they are a risk sharing partner. In exchange for that GE would most surely want a guarantee of a market.
 
N79969
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:24 pm

If the 747Adv uses bleedless systems (which I hear they might), then PW would be out of the running anyway. Phollingsworth is correct. When there are 3 choices for an airplane type, none of the engine makers generate much profit and have complained. The development and certification costs are very expensive.

If Boeing is signing deals with suppliers that means an operator has probably put money down to buy 747Adv or is at their ATM taking out the cash right now.
 
United Airline
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:28 pm

OK if an airline wants to place a large order for the B 747 Advanced using P and W or RR engines, will Boeing say yes? I suppose so right? Coz they wanna make $ too.
 
gigneil
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:35 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 4):
If the 747Adv uses bleedless systems (which I hear they might)

I'd like to hear more about this... because it really doesn't fit into their "minimal change" cost strategy.

Bleedless systems is a huge update to the plane.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 5):
OK if an airline wants to place a large order for the B 747 Advanced using P and W or RR engines, will Boeing say yes?

No. There is an exclusivity agreement in place. Even if there weren't, both PW and RR would have to design an engine for the plane, and neither would have any chance of making all that money back.

My guess is both RR and GE demanded exclusivity, and PW passed on participating since they have no engine.

N
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:38 pm

I can't believe that GE has Boeing by the balls to this degree. They are taking customer choices away from them.

I just have a very bad feeling that we have witnessed the beginning of the death of the 747. If this is the way it ends, I will hate Boeing for it. Of course, I hope I am way of base.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:40 pm

The issue of a sole supplier in powerplants is nothing new. Just a quick look at the market gives you a reason why.

Boeing estimates there is a market of 300 max. For all the engine mfgrs to provide an engine choice is commercial suicide. In addition, Boeing would have to design a pylon and certify each powerplant, thus adding cost to the aircraft.

The 777 was the precursor of this agreement. It's nothing new at all.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 5):
OK if an airline wants to place a large order for the B 747 Advanced using P and W or RR engines, will Boeing say yes? I suppose so right? Coz they wanna make $ too.

Simple answer.....NO!
Fly fast, live slow
 
United Airline
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:40 am

Well I am sure they want to sell more than 300 if they can.

Also I don't think Boeing will shut themselves out from a huge order simply because of engine deals.
 
N60659
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:45 am

I wonder how this is going to play with BA and CX which were both interested in the 744 Adv, but their fleets are predominantly RR powered.
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PhilSquares
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:54 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 9):
Also I don't think Boeing will shut themselves out from a huge order simply because of engine deals

Take a look at the 777-300ER and 777-200LR. Boeing refused any other engine types on that aircraft. Believe me, it gets very expensive to certify various engine types on airframes. The increased costs have to be passed along to someone.

The figure of 300 aircraft is Boeing's estimate of the market. Take that up with them!
Fly fast, live slow
 
iowa744fan
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:56 am

N60659,

I was wondering the exact same thing. I keep hearing how BA, CX, QF, LH, and JL are to be among the airlines most interested and whom would order right away....and the first three operate RR powered 744s. Then again, with decent sized orders, others have added engine types recently so who knows. Perhaps this will help GE in the 787 market if airlines want to operate both the 787 and the 747Adv.
 
United Airline
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am

Then why did they offer 3 engine types for the B 777-200/200ER as well as the B 747-400?
 
N79969
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:59 am

Qantas switched from RR to GE on their latest batch of 744 and 744ER if I am not mistaken.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:01 am

You will have to ask Boeing.

However, if you look at the order pool and how small it is, there costs to develop and certify each engine isn't worth it. You have a case where engine companies can't make money by selling the engines. If Boeing sticks with one engine type, in the long run it's cheaper for the customer.

With the advent of "power by the hour" having a "non standard" engine type isn't the big deal it used to be years ago.
Fly fast, live slow
 
N60659
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:45 am

There seems to be a rather subtle yet significant shift in the way Boeing has approached selecting engine suppliers in the last few years especially with the 773ER, 772LR, 787 and the 744Adv. Where multiple suppliers are tapped (like on the 787), they have gone to bleedless systems which allows the use of either the GEnx or the Trent 1000. In the case of the 772LR and 773ER, they have exclusivity arrangements with GE and GE also shared in development costs. And now the 744Adv has a single engine supplier.

For the latter three programs, the benefit derived from the success of a program is tangible - if the program succeeds, GE partakes in the profits as well. In the past, the engine manufacturers were somewhat isolated from success or failure of a program. With this new philosophy, Boeing and GE have to truly participate as a team as the stakes are higher for all involved parties.

For the 787 program, engine manufacturers have to vie that much harder for orders, and have to either meet or beat gurantees otherwise the airlines will be able to switch engine suppliers at any point in the fleets lifecycle.

Over and above all this, the after market has gotten significantly more streamlined. One does not have to weigh the possibility of inducting an airframe/engine combination that is not uniform with the airlines' current fleet.

I think many of us have focussed so much on the Airbus vs. Boeing saga. However, there is a bigger tussle which includes the engine manufacturers as well and currently, GE has a leg up over RR and PW. Please feel free to comment about this. I would love to hear what you think.
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gigneil
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 9):
Also I don't think Boeing will shut themselves out from a huge order simply because of engine deals.

Its an exclusivity agreement. They have no choice.

You're missing the point - neither RR nor PW have an engine for the plane. They would have to develop one.

Its the ENGINE manufacturers that demand exclusivity. They need to know they'll recoup their costs of development, and, for a niche market plane like this they just won't.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 13):
Then why did they offer 3 engine types for the B 777-200/200ER as well as the B 747-400?

Those are huge market airplanes, with a very large forecast. Arguably, there wasn't room for all 3 on the 777 as GE was losing money for a long time on the project.

The 747A will struggle to sell 300 frames. Its not worth it to have another engine manufacturer. That manufacturer would lose money by offering an engine.

N
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:59 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 11):
The increased costs have to be passed along to someone.

No doubt. I once inquired Dornier about certifying the 328Jet with Primus Epic when they launched the 728 family with Epic. They had already looked into that and the potential of a GE engine for supplier (with the 306B problems) and parts commonality across the entire line. The Avionics was $13 million, Engines $17 million (Closest engine is on the Falcon 2000)- Just for the certification process. It may not seem like much, and an Airline may have considered such an expense for the Avionics but damn...
 
whitehatter
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 10):
I wonder how this is going to play with BA and CX which were both interested in the 744 Adv, but their fleets are predominantly RR powered.

Cathay are a different operation, but BA isn't as clear-cut as you might think.

They originally considered ordering the 744 with CF6 engines as there was some movement inside British Airways towards the GE product. At the time this was attributed to BCal people who had been brought into BA, and BCal was a GE loyalist to a certain extent.

They also have the GE90 powered 772 fleet, which has put its early reliability issues behind it.

Willie Walsh is another factor. The new CEO is another one who has waved the company chequebook at GE in the past when he was with EI.

GE engines are well supported in the United Kingdom, so assuming BA will always want to buy a Rolls product isn't entirely correct.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 17):
The 747A will struggle to sell 300 frames. Its not worth it to have another engine manufacturer. That manufacturer would lose money by offering an engine.

If Boeing go with the GENX engine, I wonder if the carryover from the 787 might happen? Interface compatability with the Rolls Trent 1000?
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
gigneil
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:15 am

The GEnx on the 747A will be very different than the one for the 787.... clipped blades and bleed air. Any RR engine would have to be the same, so I don't think that there will be much in the way of compatibility.

N
 
RRFan
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:16 am

This is going to be a HUGE blow to the Adv program.
BA will certainly now not go for the 747Adv. They are already under pressure from the UK government to support industry. What this has done is now given the BA 767 replacement to RR for 787's and the 747 replacement will now be Airbus A380/A350 mix.

I like Boeing aircraft, but this ability to take away choice is literally leaving airlines with no other choice but to switch. Just look at the 7E7, it clearly shows the airlines prefer RR. When the 777 came out it clearly showed the airlines preferred RR followed by P&W.

GE is taking the market not by technology, but by cash! This seems to be a company scared of competition!
 
whitehatter
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 20):
The GEnx on the 747A will be very different than the one for the 787.... clipped blades and bleed air. Any RR engine would have to be the same, so I don't think that there will be much in the way of compatibility.

Interesting to think about though.

I'll stick my 'expert'  duck  opinion in here and say I don't think the 747A is a good project for Boeing. On the strength of their past projects with the 753 and 764, looking at a stretch of the 777 to a 774 might be a better use of their development budget in the short term.

Both the 753 and 764 were money losers which came to market way too late in the lifecycle of the base product. Stretching the 773 again could be a much more lucrative line than spending what would be effectively a complete redesign and testing budget on the 747.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
gigneil
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting RRFan (Reply 21):
What this has done is now given the BA 767 replacement to RR for 787's and the 747 replacement will now be Airbus A380/A350 mix.

Why would 787s replace the 767, but an A350 be in with the 744 replacement?

If anything, an A380/777 mix will replace the 744.

N
 
Ken777
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:30 am

I believe this agreement simply pushes the 747ADV closer to board approval. I also have a feeling that there will be more than 300 sales over the years. Airlines are going to buy a size of plane to meet the market. Just as they will not buy a 777 if the 787 is the size they need they are not going to buy a 380 if they only need a 747 sized plane. Both the 380 and 747ADV will do well because they both are the best matches for their respective size ranges. I believe GE recognized this and were very smart to get the exclusive deal with Boeing.
 
boeingbus
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:33 am

Quoting RRFan (Reply 21):
This is going to be a HUGE blow to the Adv program.

NO - 777NG has been doign really well w/o RR or PW.

Quoting RRFan (Reply 21):
BA will certainly now not go for the 747Adv.

Well, if they want the 773ER, 787 and the 747Adv in their fleet plans, which they will have no choice but to opt for the GE Engines. This is a much better package than the Airbus can compete at the moment. BA's 747 w/ rolls engines haven't had the best of luck recently so maybe a change is good for BA's image.

Quoting RRFan (Reply 21):
Just look at the 7E7, it clearly shows the airlines prefer RR.

With your analysis than, RR would do just fine w/o the support of BA and thus less pressure from your UK government. Look folks airlines want what is best for their shareholders and not what people like you RRFAN think what's best for BA. Additionally, there have only been a few who have chosen their engines so you need wait and see as the 200 and so orders are finalized an engines are chosen.

Quoting RRFan (Reply 21):
GE is taking the market not by technology, but by cash!

haha - what are you smoking dude? what do you want GE to give them away for free? an dif you look back at the last 30 years, GE or PW has always had a better reputation and higher reliability. Just remember who declared bankruptcy....

Quoting RRFan (Reply 21):
This seems to be a company scared of competition!

and let us know how you came up with that conclusion? if its because of exclusive contracts than Rolls has the same with some variants of the A340.



Look the reason I replied, is that if you are going to knock GE than get ready to get knocked because RR hasn't been all that glorious.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
WAH64D
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:34 am

Ah well, thats the 747Adv flushed down the pan. What the h*** are Boeing thinking when the worlds biggest 747 operator (BA) has an entirely RR fleet. The only answer I think is feasible is that GE are funding development costs of the aircraft and want a return on their investment.

A shame Boeing evidently doesn't have the money to fund the project themselves.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
atmx2000
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:41 am

Quoting RRFan (Reply 21):
Just look at the 7E7, it clearly shows the airlines prefer RR. When the 777 came out it clearly showed the airlines preferred RR followed by P&W.

GE is taking the market not by technology, but by cash! This seems to be a company scared of competition!

I don't see how you can say that given there have been so few engine selections for the 787. And the PW and RR engine selections for the early 777s were partly a result of carrier loyalty as well as partly due to the fact that those engines were lower weight. But the latter was a reflection of platform limiting characteristics. GE had an easier time upgrading the GE90 to higher thrust levels for the 777LR program, which put them in a strong position to demand exclusivity from Boeing.

[Edited 2005-04-25 20:44:55]
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tinpusher007
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:43 am

Why does everyone bitch about Boeing giving sole supplier contracts to GE for their aircraft. No one complained that Airbus gave RR sole supplier status for the A345/6 or CFM for the A342/3 for that matter.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
MidnightMike
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 26):
Ah well, thats the 747Adv flushed down the pan. What the h*** are Boeing thinking when the worlds biggest 747 operator (BA) has an entirely RR fleet. The only answer I think is feasible is that GE are funding development costs of the aircraft and want a return on their investment.

A shame Boeing evidently doesn't have the money to fund the project themselves.

What was Boeing thinking? Business, the 747Advanced is going to serve the niche market, Boeing is planning on selling around 300 of the aircraft, hard for several engine companies to invest money on a program that small. Helps bring down the cost of the 747Advanced with GE investing in the program as well.
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Boeing Nut
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:47 am

The 747ADV program has the potential of replacing every 747 in existance today. That's 1,100+ hundred units folks. Of course it won't but if it even replaced half, you mean to tell me that 500 units wouldn't support three engine manufacturers?
.
.
.
I must have just been born yesterday, because I sure don't understand that logic. Guess that's why I just look at 'em and not develop them.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
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airzim
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:48 am

How come no one complains about the fact that if you want to buy a 737 you have only one engine choice?
 
United Airline
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:49 am

Then BA will not order the B 777-300ER too since it is GE powered only.

If they need an aircraft, they will order it regardless of engine deals.

BA is likely to order the B 747A I think. Also other airlines who want it.
 
gigneil
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 30):
The 747ADV program has the potential of replacing every 747 in existance today.

Not going to happen. Invariably, the A380, 777-300ER, and A340-600 will get much of this business.

N
 
MidnightMike
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 30):
The 747ADV program has the potential of replacing every 747 in existance today. That's 1,100+ hundred units folks. Of course it won't but if it even replaced half, you mean to tell me that 500 units wouldn't support three engine manufacturers?

Boeing is using the number of 300 747Advanced sales, not every single 747 operator will be replacing their 747 with the 747Advanced. 500 units is a number that you are using, 300 is the number that Boeing is using.
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RRFan
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:53 am

BoeingBus

haha - what are you smoking dude?

obviously not the strong stuff you are on!

p.s keep chearing for the 787 and 747 Adv, they are gonna need these orders!

B757 production line- CLOSED
B767 production line - CLOSING
B747 production line - we'll see

A319, 320, 321, 330, 340, 380, 350 production lines ALL OPEN and OPENING. You have a long way to go before you, Boeing and GE can brag a fantastic year. One 787 and 737 production line won't keep people employed, especially when most is built outside the US and the profits going to those companies.

RR unreliable? I forgot how reliable GE is. My mistake  Embarrassment
 
N1120A
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting Iowa744fan (Reply 12):
I keep hearing how BA, CX, QF, LH, and JL are to be among the airlines most interested and whom would order right away....and the first three operate RR powered 744s.

Actually, QF's 744ERs are CF6 powered. Only the CF6 and PW4062 are available on the 744ER, as there is no over 60,000 pound version of the RB211

Quoting United Airline (Reply 13):
Then why did they offer 3 engine types for the B 777-200/200ER as well as the B 747-400?

The 744 has sold so many aircraft that each manufacturer was able to make money. Additionally, those engines were all available on a variety of aircraft, including the 757, 767, A300, A310. That spread the risk rather well

Quoting N79969 (Reply 14):
Qantas switched from RR to GE on their latest batch of 744 and 744ER if I am not mistaken.

Not the 744s, but yes the 744ERs, as there is no RB211 for it
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
whitehatter
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Not the 744s, but yes the 744ERs, as there is no RB211 for it

QF could have bought into RR for that order, but the RB211 being offered wasn't suitable. The CF6 offering on the 744ER offered greater commonality with existing and incoming engines.

Rolls would have offered an engine which was substantially different from the existing RB211-524 which QF didn't like as they would have effectively been orphans in the fleet.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
N1120A
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 37):
QF could have bought into RR for that order, but the RB211 being offered wasn't suitable.

According to Boeing, only the PW4062 and CF6 are available for the 744ER
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting RRFan (Reply 35):
B757 production line- CLOSED
B767 production line - CLOSING

And the point of keeping these lines open would be what? A new Jobs program???
 
whitehatter
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):

According to Boeing, only the PW4062 and CF6 are available for the 744ER

As I said, the RB211 which was initially put forward was substantially different from existing engines so it never happened. The only airline which would have been interested was QF and they showed no interest. So Rolls Royce dropped their plans to uprate the engine.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
WAH64D
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 32):
BA is likely to order the B 747A I think. Also other airlines who want it.

I really don't think they will. BA has stated many times in the past that they will not have any more aircraft with GE engines. The 777-200s were too unreliable with the GE90 when they were first delivered. Also the British Government have been putting tremendous pressure on BA to "Buy British" of late. This could well be the door opening to an A346 order.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:02 am

This is what I have never understood.

You have two engines, lets say RB.211 and Trent 1000 or CF6 and GENx. These two pairs have NOTHING in common other than the manufacturer. So here's my question. Why is it such a big deal to operate different airplanes with different engines from different manufacturers? Is the fact that RR makes other engines in BAs fleet going to make it easier or cheaper to maintain and operate a fleet powered by GENx? If someone can clear this up, I'd appreciate it.

The reason I ask is that a lot of you say that so and so airlines won't order this airplane because it's not powered by RR or PW. I don't think that holds any water frankly, because in the end, the engines are different anyway.
 
MakeMinesLAX
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 16):
In the past, the engine manufacturers were somewhat isolated from success or failure of a program. With this new philosophy, Boeing and GE have to truly participate as a team as the stakes are higher for all involved parties.

For the 787 program, engine manufacturers have to vie that much harder for orders, and have to either meet or beat gurantees otherwise the airlines will be able to switch engine suppliers at any point in the fleets lifecycle.

I think the risk-sharing element is the key here, particularly when new technology (bleedless engines) is being introduced. There are plenty of otherwise capable aircraft which have suffered setbacks (or worse) due to an engine manufacturer's shortcomings (technical or otherwise):

-L-1011
-MD-11
-Trident
-VC-10

Add into the mix the soured view airlines have adopted toward successful aircraft due to engine woes - I'm thinking of the 777 with early PWs and the DC-10 with GEs (UA 232). Also, consider that fact that practically every aircraft/engine combination has its teething pains (747-100, etc.)

Given that fuel-efficiency and performance are increasingly large factors in pruchasing decisions nowadays, it makes sense to involve the engine manufacturer more fully. Since GE is hitting home runs with the GE-90 on the 777NG, they seem like the best choice.
 
MakeMinesLAX
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 42):
The reason I ask is that a lot of you say that so and so airlines won't order this airplane because it's not powered by RR or PW. I don't think that holds any water frankly, because in the end, the engines are different anyway.

Commonality (engines, cockpit) is certainly a viable argument when adding to a large existing fleet, but not so much for a new type or subtype. Face it - an airline can't restrict itself to one supplier in perpetuity.

I wonder if engine type is even less of a factor with the increase in MX outsourcing.
 
WAH64D
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 42):
This is what I have never understood.

You have two engines, lets say RB.211 and Trent 1000 or CF6 and GENx. These two pairs have NOTHING in common other than the manufacturer. So here's my question. Why is it such a big deal to operate different airplanes with different engines from different manufacturers? Is the fact that RR makes other engines in BAs fleet going to make it easier or cheaper to maintain and operate a fleet powered by GENx? If someone can clear this up, I'd appreciate it.

The reason I ask is that a lot of you say that so and so airlines won't order this airplane because it's not powered by RR or PW. I don't think that holds any water frankly, because in the end, the engines are different anyway.

Actually, a fair amount of non-core parts are interchangeable between the RB211 and the Trent. Notwithstanding Air Transat fitting an RB211 fuel system part to a Trent engine and gliding half way across the atlantic as a result, there are actually quite a lot of cost efficiencies to be made by choosing a different engine from the same manufacturer. Bulk parts savings and lower mx staff conversion costs being the most obvious.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
boeingbus
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting RRFan (Reply 35):
B757 production line- CLOSED
B767 production line - CLOSING
B747 production line - we'll see

Production lines closing and new product opening means PROGRESS! Airbus will have to follow suit or it will be left behind.

Boeing is progressing to a new standard just like they did in the 60's w/ 747 and again in the 80's w/ 767/757.... again in 95 w/ the most advanced twin 777 and now its 2005 baby w/ the 787... I just can't wait till they announce the replacement for the 737... as it will be the next big thing from Boeing...

I have nothing against Airbus as they pose the biggest competitor to Boeing ever. Competition is good and I appreciate their ways. I think the A330 is the best looking aircraft and performer in production right now. I'm just not a fan of ignorants like you who come on here and have diarhea of the mouth.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
NW747-400
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:26 am

Will the new GE engines on the 747Adv offer FADEC? IIRC all 744's offered an EEC only to control engine overtemp (or did the 744ER offer a FADEC system?) but not FADEC.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
My guess is both RR and GE demanded exclusivity, and PW passed on participating since they have no engine.

Exactly the same thing that happened with the 777. I think the reason Boeing did pick GE (may have been said before) is that they already have had some success with the exclusive-ness on the 777. GE was willing to adapt to Boeing, and was willing to put out the  dollarsign  again. In a way, its smart business. In another, it kinda marginalizes RR...again.

fluffy
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
boeingbus
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RE: GE Wins 747Adv Power

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:39 am

But aren't most airliners outsourcing their maintenance where this becomes more of a non-issue and fuel savings and better product go right to the top in selection criteria??

Right now airlines want fuel savings and efficiencies. OF course its relative to scale... BA or any airliner will not only get 5 jets with a new engine type... they need more to make it more cost effective. Right now, the GENx is can be bought in the wildly popular 773ER, 787 and now 747Adv... you have a lot of product to chose and buy with a new engine type. For airliners who dont want to maintain these engines, GE has great program to do it for you as do many other MRO companies.

Engine commonality is thing of the past... Many successful airlines have more than one engine vendor... in 05, performance is key.... Having loyality to your countries product is thing of the past, look at Rover and here in the states once profitable companies were overtaken by imports. These failures don't happen by accident it happens you have a poor product.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!

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