FA4UA
Topic Author
Posts: 777
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Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:02 am

According to Forbes.com:

UA's CEO Glenn Tilton made $1.2 million in compensation last year
CO's CEO Larry Kellner made $790,562
AA's CEO Gerald Arpey made $686,285
WN's CEO Gary Kelly made $627,706
NW's CEO Douglas Steenland made $523,577
DL's CEO Gerald Grinstein made $382,207

This teaches me a few things:
1. if your name is Gerald, you're chances of being an airline CEO is better
2. if you lead your airline through gut wrenching cutbacks and salary set backs for everyone you will still make lots of money.
3. if your airline (WN) made money and you are virtually a miracle worker, you will be paid an average CEO salary

I do hope HR courses in our nation's universities don't use these models for compensation theory.

FA4UA

sources:
http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay...k_451.html?partner=yahoo&id=C03905
http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay...k_476.html?partner=yahoo&id=C01130
http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay...k_476.html?partner=yahoo&id=C09771
http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay...k_476.html?partner=yahoo&id=C00453
http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay...k_476.html?partner=yahoo&id=C00669
http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay...k_476.html?partner=yahoo&id=C02559
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commavia
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:05 am

Quoting FA4UA (Thread starter):
AA's CEO Gerald Arpey made $686,285

It's actually Gerard Arpey.
 
redflyer
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:06 am

Good post. There was a thread about a month back that talked about Tilton's salary. There were some folks who defended it. Given where his airline is and where it's NOT going (e.g., out of bankruptcy) as well as the sacrifices he's put his employees through, he should be shown the door.

If nothing else then to reflect the fact that he's not leading by example nor garnering the respect he should be to lead effectively.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
commavia
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:12 am

Considering how far AA has come, I don't think that Gerard Arpey's compensation (his salary is actually $513,700, the rest is stock options) is competely unwarranted.

In fact, the 1.5% raise that all AA employees (including Arpey) will get is the first raise that Gerard Arpey has seen in several years. In 2003, his salary dropped by 14 percent even though he was promoted to CEO. In 2004, he turned down a 22% raise the board offered him when he became Chairman.
 
FA4UA
Topic Author
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:13 am

EXACTLY my feelings RedFlyer! I totally understand we need to pay CEO's a good salary to retain talent and attract the best, however if a CEO is preaching "staying United" and teamwork, while cutting everybody's salary's and still drawing in this much... How can any of us believe his "teamwork" pleas?

oooops on the spelling of Gerard!

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
gigneil
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:16 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
Given where his airline is and where it's NOT going (e.g., out of bankruptcy) as well as the sacrifices he's put his employees through, he should be shown the door.

And replaced with who? Nobody is stupid enough to sign up for that dead-end gig.

N
 
commavia
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:20 am

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 4):
I totally understand we need to pay CEO's a good salary to retain talent and attract the best, however if a CEO is preaching "staying United" and teamwork, while cutting everybody's salary's and still drawing in this much... How can any of us believe his "teamwork" please?

That is exactly right. I find it egregious that while United is in bankruptcy, losing hundreds of millions per quarter, asking for concession after concession from its workers, and terminating their pension plans, the CEO is making more than any other airline CEO. If that is what United needs to do to retain Tilton, then maybe Tilton is not the kind of CEO they need to retain.
 
redflyer
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 5):
And replaced with who? Nobody is stupid enough to sign up for that dead-end gig.

Oh, I would think there are enough egos on A.Net who think they know it all and who would be stupid enough to sign up for that "dead-end gig" -- and for 1/10 his salary.  duck 
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:02 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
I find it egregious that while United is in bankruptcy, losing hundreds of millions per quarter, asking for concession after concession from its workers, and terminating their pension plans, the CEO is making more than any other airline CEO. If that is what United needs to do to retain Tilton, then maybe Tilton is not the kind of CEO they need to retain.

Tilton prior to United was at one of America's largest companies, Texaco. Clearly Tilton did not come to United to do charity work for pennies on the dollar and must be compensated accordignly. Tilton just like front line employees has taken multiple pay cuts since joining, and forgone additional compensation perks which were part of his employment package. His 2004 bonuses, were based exactly the same ones all employees received for reaching performance goals while in bankruptcy.

Personally I do not feel any of the above CEO are particuarly overpaid, in fact I considering them underpaid. These are all CEO's responsible for large Fortune-200 companies with tens of thousands of employees, shareholders, and customers. To think they would settle for much less then peers in other industries a falicy.

Lastly, companies on shaky finances must often up executive compensation during tough periods to ensure the company does not suffer multiple departures from its executive ranks. Retention and performance incentive programs are very valuable tools. One of the worst possible things to happen to a company like United while in bankruptcy is to loose several key executives. This would not only cause great concern amongst financial lenders, vendors, customers but also stop the clock on any progress being made until a new team can get in place and try to figure out what might be going on. Any such lost time might be a fatal move.

If you disagree with any of these views, do not blame the CEO's instead blame the board of directors, and free enterprise system we have in this country.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
commavia
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:09 am

Laxintl -- I understand everything you are saying and agree that not only are airline CEOs underpaid for other companies in other industries, but that sometimes financially weak airlines have to retain top management with financial incentives. Still, in spite of all that, I just think it is a bit sad that while United's employees are losing pay, benefits and, most devastating, their pensions, their CEO is getting paid over twice what his counterpart (Arpey) at a larger airline (AA) is making.
 
aa777jr
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:15 am

what the hell is the crapiest (financially) airline CEO getting the biggest pay out for? That guy should use his 1.2 million and pay lawyers at UA trying to dig them out of their bankruptcy hole. They still haven't shown signs of an exit strategy at UA.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
companies on shaky finances must often up executive compensation during tough periods to ensure the company does not suffer multiple departures from its executive ranks

E N R O N  covereyes 
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
citationjet
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:18 am

That list also shows that Warren Buffett of Berkshire Hathaway made $100,000.
And Steven Jobs of Apple Computers made $0.
http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay...ry2=&passKeyword=&resultsStart=476
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RogerThat
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:36 am

The CEO job doesn't have much job security. Have any of these guys been CEO for more than 5 years? Arpey has been with AA for 20 plus, but CEO since only 2003. Does Titlon have the most time in the CEO chair?

You got to make hay while the sun shines.
 
supa7E7
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:48 am

These paychecks are crazy low!

Of the Forbes 500, look at the list of executive compensation. On the LAST page, #475-500, you'll find all these airline guys. No CEO works in the airline business for the money. ZERO, NONE. They work there because they love it. They love airlines so much they're wacko. They are being underpaid by a factor of 10 compared to equal jobs in related industries.

The going rate for a Fortune 500 CEO is about 2-5 million these days. That's an average of hundreds of firms. If you think 500k is a lot for a job like that, you are nuts.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
commavia
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:50 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 13):
Of the Forbes 500, look at the list of executive compensation. On the LAST page, #475-500, you'll find all these airline guys. No CEO works in the airline business for the money. ZERO, NONE. They work there because they love it. They love airlines so much they're wacko. They are being underpaid by a factor of 10 compared to equal jobs in related industries.

Very true.
 
corey07850
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:06 am

Anyone know what ol' Gordo was making before he left CO? I bet it tops them all
 
LAXintl
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:06 am

When Tilton was lured over from Texaco in 2002, he was given a $13.6 million compensation package that included monies to make up forfeited future compensation and a pension at Texaco.

His compensation included a yearly $1.9million base salary including any performance bonuses. Within 10 weeks of him arriving at United, he voluntarily took a 11% paycut, and since has continued to take additional cuts along with the rank an file.

Thus his 2004 pay of $1.2 million is only a fraction (63%) of the pay he signed for when the took the job.

If anything I could probably state, Tilton is more interested in United as a personal challenge then for compensation. Same with the rest of the industries CEO's. They could easily earn more money working in different fields. Look at the former executives whom have moved on, and ended up in the fast food industry and a health care organization.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:14 am

Quoting FA4UA (Thread starter):
This teaches me a few things:
1. if your name is Gerald, you're chances of being an airline CEO is better

While not a CEO anymore, Gerald Greenwald did all right when he was CEO at UA. He did a great job...too bad he was replaced by a loser like Jim Goodwin.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
Given where his airline is and where it's NOT going (e.g., out of bankruptcy) as well as the sacrifices he's put his employees through, he should be shown the door.

Do you know this for a fact, or is it an assumption on your part? Think of how far UA has come in 2 years...there was a lot of speculation that UA wouldn't emerge, but that is gone now. Now that the pension issue is closer to being "resolved" (though I highly disagree with it) they're that much closer now to being able to emerge and secure exit financing to do so.

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 10):
They still haven't shown signs of an exit strategy at UA

There is an exit strategy, and a business plan. Parts of it have been executed already, and the rest is yet to come. Just because it isn't public yet (for proprietary/competitive reasons) doesn't mean there isn't one.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
LAXintl
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:53 am

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 15):
Anyone know what ol' Gordo was making before he left CO? I bet it tops them all

according to
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3149144

Gordo got $27 million when he left in December 2004.

Some highlights..

"Former Continental Airlines CEO Gordon Bethune got more than $27 million when he retired on Dec. 30, a regulatory filing Friday shows."

"The payout was recommended by Continental's human resources committee, according to the filing."

"When Bethune retired, his base salary was $1.04 million."

"Bethune's total retirement package included $22 million agreed to the April before he retired and $5.1 million promised about the time Northwest Airlines and its affiliates made a major investment in Continental in 1998."

"Additionally, he received a $410,000 payment related to the incentive program."

"Continental's filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission also showed that the carrier's top executives took pay cuts as Continental was trying to win wage and benefit concessions from employees."

"Chairman and CEO Larry Kellner's annual salary this year is $712,500, down from $950,000. President Jeff Smisek's salary is $576,000, down from $720,000."
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
redflyer
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 17):
Do you know this for a fact, or is it an assumption on your part?

I'm not sure what your saying in response to my comment. I do know for a fact that UA is in bankruptcy. I do know for a fact that there is no date set for their emergence from bankruptcy. I do know for a fact that they have recently requested another extension for emergence from bankruptcy. I do know for a fact that Tilton is paid more than airline CEOs whose companies are showing a profit. I do know for a fact that Tilton's compensation last fiscal year included a bonus -- a bonus that he took after he asked his employees to make extensions. I do know for a fact that that kind of conduct has made him a pariah within his own company.

Are there any other facts you'd like to know?

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 17):
Think of how far UA has come in 2 years...there was a lot of speculation that UA wouldn't emerge, but that is gone now.

How far have they come in 2 years? They are still in bankruptcy last time I checked and will continue to be so, as evidenced by their most recent pleading for a court extension. Where is your information coming from that says all the speculation regarding their ability to emerge from bankruptcy is "gone now"?

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 17):
Just because it isn't public yet (for proprietary/competitive reasons) doesn't mean there isn't one.

I didn't realize being in bankruptcy was considered proprietary or imbued an entity with competitive rights and advantages. Perhaps if Tilton & Co. shared some of these "proprietary" plans with their debtors, they might actually be able to emerge from bankruptcy and get on with doing what they should be doing -- making money. Which they are not.
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aa757first
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:26 am

Quoting FA4UA (Thread starter):
2. if you lead your airline through gut wrenching cutbacks and salary set backs for everyone you will still make lots of money.

Gate agents, ticket agents, pilots, mechanic flight attendants, reservation agents and ramp agents can be replaced very easily. It is much harder to find a CEO than it is to find any other employee.

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 10):
what the hell is the crapiest (financially) airline CEO getting the biggest pay out for? That guy should use his 1.2 million and pay lawyers at UA trying to dig them out of their bankruptcy hole. They still haven't shown signs of an exit strategy at UA.

Ok, so you think the CEO making $1.2 million is bad. Imagine what the CEO making $400,000 would do to the place.

AAndrew
 
redflyer
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 20):
Ok, so you think the CEO making $1.2 million is bad. Imagine what the CEO making $400,000 would do to the place.

Ummm...I didn't realize there was a direct correlation between salary and competency.

Using that analogy, Bernie Ebbers should not be facing the rest of his life in prison.

Regards
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
aa757first
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:51 am

Last year, United lost $1.7 billion dollars. In the same year, Schering-Plough lost $947 million and AT&T lost $6.4.

Schering-Plough CEO - $8.91 million dollars (total compensation)
AT&T CEO - $11.7 million dollars (T/C)

As you can see, a companies financial performance does not tie into their CEO's compensation.

AAndrew
 
redflyer
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 22):
As you can see, a companies financial performance does not tie into their CEO's compensation.

Agreed. And for the most part, I don't have an issue with CEO's pulling down the big bucks when in fact their companies might be losing money.

However, I do have an issue with a CEO who harps endlessly about the need for his/her employees to give concessions and make financially oppressive sacrifices - only to turn around and personally take a hefty bonus payment.

Moreover, last time I checked, companies and their executive salaries are usually calculated and compared based on industry (e.g., airline, telecom, manufacturing, etc.) standards. I don't think the analysis with AT&T and Schering-Plough is necessarily the best analogy for Tilton.

The bottom line: a CEO is a leader. As a leader he has an obligation to set the example and the tone. Why do you think Boeing whacked Stonecipher? Besides many of the different reasons given on here, one of the reasons was he did not set an example by sending sexually lurid emails on the corporate email system. Shows very bad judgment on his part. I think it does on Tilton's as well (although, obviously, not of the same gravity).

Best regards
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:40 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 19):
I'm not sure what your saying in response to my comment.

You said:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
Given where his airline is and where it's NOT going (e.g., out of bankruptcy)

True...UAL has seen much better days than they have in the last two years. You're making the assumption that they won't come out of bankruptcy at all. My question is how do you know this for sure? Are you basing that solely on monthly/quarterly losses?

The bottom line here is that neither you or me or anyone else on here has access to the information the executives at UAL do. Why would UA make it's exit strategy and business plan known now, if they're not planning to emerge until later this year? Why give their competitors time to examine it and change their business plan to respond to it?

United creditor banks haven't opposed the many extensions that UAL has received. In fact, they have agreed to modifications to the agreements which gives UA some leeway to react to factors outside their control like fuel prices. In fact, creditors apparently have enough faith in UAL senior management to allow them to put fuel hedges in place, currently at 11%.

I could go on and on, but I've already done that in numerous other posts too many times already. Glenn Tilton wasn't hired in Sept. 2002 to be f-ing Santa Claus and to hold everyone's hands. He was hired to restructure UAL into a profit-making enterprise by removing the elements of the company which brought it to the Ch. 11 filing. Tilton has been through this before, with ChevronTexaco. Ch. 11 sucks, and in order to ensure that there isn't a second filing (which is usually fatal to a company) he is making the very tough decisions now to ensure the long-term survival of United. There's a lot broken with that company, and a lot has to be fixed, and it's not something that happens overnight, or within a year. Jim Goodwin could never have led UA this far, neither could Dick Ferris. Steve Wolf would have sold/merged it a year ago. Tilton and Brace, on the other hand, want to see United survive and prosper, just like the unions that supported the hiring of Tilton in 2002. They have long forgotten that now. Unfortunately, they have to make difficult decisions and reverse the downward spiral that UA was in even before 9/11. Three months (maybe not even that long) after UA emerges, I will be stunned if Tilton and Brace are still at UAL. Many other executives who report to them will also likely depart Elk Grove Township as well. Whoever ultimately does take control of the new company will look to bring in their own proven people to run UAL. Who that will be, I don't know.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 19):
How far have they come in 2 years? They are still in bankruptcy last time I checked and will continue to be so, as evidenced by their most recent pleading for a court extension. Where is your information coming from that says all the speculation regarding their ability to emerge from bankruptcy is "gone now"?

Just how long do you think it takes to restructure a company the size of UAL? A month? Two maybe? Six? US only took a year the first time, and had no choice but to emerge the first time on the date they did. But...the company didn't cut enough to survive outside Ch. 11, and thus had to refile. Tilton and Brace are doing the right thing by making certain that everything that can be cut is cut, to ensure that UAL won't have to refile for Ch. 11 6 months to a year later.

When UA first filed for Ch. 11, industry analysts estimated there was about a 50% chance UA could file Ch. 7. As the restructuring took place, and those closely watching UA saw the progress, they dramatically lowered the chance of a Ch. 7 filing to below 10%. Think about all that has happened in the industry since the filing, especially with fuel prices...UAL didn't have any control over that (and publicly opposed the Iraq war, knowing damn well what fuel prices would do, and ended being right) and have had to constantly adjust and make changes to offset the rising cost of fuel. And guess what? UA is still flying...and will continue to do so, and WILL reemerge.

[Edited 2005-04-26 05:52:44]

[Edited 2005-04-26 05:54:48]
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
redflyer
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 24):

You win. I can't argue with all you wrote. (And you wrote a lot.)

Actually, I could but I have a life outside of A.Net so I'll let it ride for now. Maybe someone else with more time can take it up.

Best regards
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
CRJCA
Posts: 56
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:08 pm

Did anyone notice Mesa Airlines CEO Jonathan Ornstein made 4.8 million?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:29 pm

I'm pretty sure the Mesaba Holding's CEO Paul Foley makes pretty close to what Steeland is making over at NWA.

You would think there would be a significant difference between salaries at the regionals & majors, but their isn't.
 
FA4UA
Topic Author
Posts: 777
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:54 pm

LAXINTL welcome to my respected users list. You always seem to have well thought out comments on this forum.

Great discussion folks... it has broadened my awareness immensly.

I again say though... If Tilton is talking about "staying United" while making a 7 figure salary/compensation, all while cutting everyone else's salaries (mine included)... just doesn't add up. Cutting my measly salary hurts a lot more for my finances compared with cutting his salary, or other top brass for thier lifestyles. A 9.5% pay cut for me means me debating on whether or not to go out to dinner or not, for them it means something entirely loftier.

I realize I'm easy to replace, however my point is he's sending a mixed message. And yes, without a doubt none of the CEO's of airlines make good money comparatively. When you think of other firms that pull in nearly $2 billion a month in revenue (as we do at UA) and what thier CEO's make, compared with ours... our boy isn't doing so hot. My question is how many of them are making the same speaches about "everyone in these sacrifices together".

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
coa764
Posts: 309
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:20 pm

It amazes me that people are so concerned with what a CEO makes that they will take the time to research the numbers.
Two words


WHO CARES!



I mean really at the end of the day what has or has not changed in your life knowing what these people make. Look here are a group of people that applied themselves through their life enough to be hired on to run a company and the folks that seem to be the ones issuing the gripes most likely never did. The people in that group didn't just submit their application for the job and interview with an HR rep like most folks do, these people were selected and just like sports stars and when your a highly sought after player you are going to get paid to do the job. Not to mention, for all the union folks, these people are contractual employees so just like you they have it laid out on paper and just like you they don't have to change the terms of their agreement during rough times. Look if you want to be a CEO then go for it but if you have pissed you life away always doing 'just enough then easy up off their backs a bit .. Oh and for the people who will flame back and say they have applied themselves and do what they do because they enjoy it then quite your gripping since it is your choice! Here is the reality of it all ... CEO's will always be well compensated and the employees that work for them will never make as much as the CEO... Complain all you want but that is as good as it get folks so pissing and moaning will get you nowhere except bitter with multiple cases of ulcers (but hey, then you and the CEO will have that in common at the least).
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
CTHEWORLD
Posts: 463
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:31 pm

LXINTL,

Agreed! One item you didn't note, Tilton took a cut over his originally negotiated salary, all other employees took a cut over their originally negotiated salary, Tilton got a success sharing bonus for meeting his contracted performance goals, all other employees got a bonus for meeting their success sharing goals.

If people in the rank and file have a problem with how much a given CEO makes, they should quit and go out and be CEOs!

Until then, everyone is getting what they bargained for, regardless of what Davidowitch says.

C
 
FA4UA
Topic Author
Posts: 777
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:31 pm

regarding post 29...

 hissyfit  I think we have a teenager in here!  bigmouth 
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:31 pm

Quoting FA4UA (Thread starter):
This teaches me a few things:
1. if your name is Gerald, you're chances of being an airline CEO is better
2. if you lead your airline through gut wrenching cutbacks and salary set backs for everyone you will still make lots of money.
3. if your airline (WN) made money and you are virtually a miracle worker, you will be paid an average CEO salary

I do hope HR courses in our nation's universities don't use these models for compensation theory.

HILARIOUS!!!  rotfl  Well, since everyone else decided to argue and bicker, I will be the first to say that I thought FA4UA made some very good(and f*cking funny) points. With the minor error of Gerald, he was mostly right on target.

It's not surprising that Grinstein's compensation is the lowest. His annual, no strings salary is $500,000 and he refused to take the later part of the year's salary in an effort to get concessions from the pilots. I guess he wanted to show Delta pilots that everyone in the company is making a sacrifice to get everything back on track.

I find it interesting that Larry Kellner is making as much as he does. Thats a pretty high salary for a freshman CEO, isn't it?

And my advice to Glen Tilton? Let some go, dude, just let it go. It doesn't have to be much, but at least make it look like your trying.  Yeah sure
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
coa764
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:32 am

RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:46 pm

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 31):
regarding post 29...

Nope I just used a little cliché sarcasm when filling out my profile. But it does makes sense that a Flight Attendant is the one who started this thread. The person in a position with the least amount of qualifications needed to be hired complaining about a person that must meet and excel at some of the highest set of qualifications and standards before they will even be looked at but hey, that is irony for you.
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
FA4UA
Topic Author
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:02 pm

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 33):
But it does makes sense that a Flight Attendant is the one who started this thread.

Where's the love??

Just so that we're all on the same page, I chose this job, I'm not stuck in it. I started this thread to point out what the leaders in this industry are paid.

Also another fun fact for you: I was hired in 2000. That year there was 35,000 applicants for being "just a flight attendant" (as the public likes to say) for UA. They only hired 1,200. I'm slightly more then your stereotype might allow for.

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
n844aa
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 28):
I realize I'm easy to replace, however my point is he's sending a mixed message. And yes, without a doubt none of the CEO's of airlines make good money comparatively. When you think of other firms that pull in nearly $2 billion a month in revenue (as we do at UA) and what thier CEO's make, compared with ours... our boy isn't doing so hot. My question is how many of them are making the same speaches about "everyone in these sacrifices together".

Interesting perspective. It must be difficult for the executive compensation committee of a troubled airline to strike a balance between recruting top talent and not completely alienating the employees who have probably already taken significant pay cuts. I like to think that if I were the CEO of an airline and I had to ask the rank-and-file for an across the board paycut, I'd take one as well. Seems like it would pay for itself many times over in the form of increased morale, but that's just uninformed speculation.

CEO compensation is fairly out of control in this country, but not in the airline industry -- not even for Tilton. These guys are making between 10-30 times what the average employee makes. For the top position at the company, that doesn't strike me as out of line. In most industries, that spread is a multiple of 300-400.

But then again, I suppose a good CEO is worth whatever the market will bear. What's $15 million here and there if he's overseeing a billion-dollar growth in profits?
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
NKP S2
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:51 pm

Quoting N844AA (Reply 35):
But then again, I suppose a good CEO is worth whatever the market will bear. What's $15 million here and there if he's overseeing a billion-dollar growth in profits?

What is he worth if he's overseeing a like amount in losses? Does the market bear negative numbers? No? I didn't think so. Gotta love double standards.

[Edited 2005-04-26 09:53:02]
 
coa764
Posts: 309
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:52 pm

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 34):
I started this thread to point out what the leaders in this industry are paid.

And what is the need to do that then, really ... I mean why would anyone care what these people make, why would you care enough to look up the information and start a thread?

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 34):
Also another fun fact for you: I was hired in 2000. That year there was 35,000 applicants for being "just a flight attendant" (as the public likes to say) for UA. They only hired 1,200. I'm slightly more then your stereotype might allow for.

I didn't say you were 'just another stereotypical Flight Attendant what I said that position is one that demands the least amount of qualifications to be hired: 19-21 years of age, high school diploma or equivalent, ability to read and write and speak English and do basic math, customer service experience, bilingual not required but would be nice, ability to re-locate, work weekends ands holidays, etc, etc. the point I was trying to make is that to get hired as a Flight Attendant one needs some very basic skills compared to being hired as a CEO were a person is hand picked based on years of education and performance and not in a 'cattle call' type forum.
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
n844aa
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:56 pm

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 36):
What is he worth if he's overseeing a like amount in losses? Does the market bear negative numbers? No? I didn't think so. Gotta love double standards.

Sorry, I had veered off into musing on the state of CEO compensation in general. I'm not aware of any airlines posting billion dollar profits, at least not in the last few years  Wink

To address your point, he may be worth millions of dollars a year if he's overseeing the loss of a billion a year if that's better than anyone else could be doing.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
n844aa
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:59 pm

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 37):
And what is the need to do that then, really ... I mean why would anyone care what these people make, why would you care enough to look up the information and start a thread?

Well, I don't mean to speak for anyone else, but I thought it was interesting. Particularly the correlation (or lack thereof) between executive compensation and airline performance. Anyway, these are all public companies. We have a right and an interest in knowing what they're paying the folks in charge.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
coa764
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:08 pm

Quoting N844AA (Reply 35):
. I like to think that if I were the CEO of an airline and I had to ask the rank-and-file for an across the board paycut, I'd take one as well. Seems like it would pay for itself many times over in the form of increased morale, but that's just uninformed speculation

There is is again, I hear this all the time! If I were a CEO I world take a pay cut too... Would you, really.... would you cut your salary? Remember if your making 1,000,000 a year then you are most likely actually living well above that. so now crunch time comes and you have to ask for pay cuts to get your company back in the black ho much are you willing to self impose? Most folks say they would cut their pay down to anywhere between 250-500 thousand a year which is complete bs! remember these are the same people that fight against a five to then percent cut at their level of pay. Me, I would cut my pay to just above what I could live comfortably on without incurring excess hardships and debt and I imagine that if most of you, given the same set of circumstances as any CEO would do the same and why wouldn't you? Your the boss, the top dog, your the person running the company and guess what, better not mess it up ... if you do odds are no one else is going to trust you to run their company so your out of a job.
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
NKP S2
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:13 pm

Quoting N844AA (Reply 38):

Sorry, I had veered off into musing on the state of CEO compensation in general. I'm not aware of any airlines posting billion dollar profits, at least not in the last few years Wink

Musing is fine ( to the degree it doesn't attempt to distort the argument beyond a reasonable comparision  Wink  Wink ) but then again, the logic presented certainly doesn't favor high compensation while presiding over losses.

Quoting N844AA (Reply 38):
To address your point, he may be worth millions of dollars a year if he's overseeing the loss of a billion a year if that's better than anyone else could be doing

Oh yes, the joys of proving a negative  Wink Perhaps a sliding scale would be interesting....precisely delineating the performance vs. earnings ratio. I'm sure "what anyone else could be doing" is quite quantifyable?
 
n844aa
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:15 pm

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 40):
There is is again, I hear this all the time! If I were a CEO I world take a pay cut too... Would you, really.... would you cut your salary?

Odd that you'd seize upon this, since I thought I qualified myself pretty well, but let me try again.

No, I have no idea if I'd cut my salary. I personally like to believe that I'm the kind of person who wouldn't ask for across-the-board pay cuts without making a sacrifice of my own in return, particularly if the continued viability of my company is at stake. If I'm going to ask a mechanic or a flight attendant or gate agent to tighten his or her belt, "for the good of the company," seems like I should do the same. Would I actually do this? I don't know. I've never been in that kind of management situation, and likely I never will. Which is why I described my comments as "uninformed speculation."  Wink

I don't know if the CEO taking a paycut resonates among the rank-and-file. Maybe one of the posters actually in the industry can address this. But I do know that the opposite certainly does. Ask Don Carty.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
n844aa
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:16 pm

Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 41):
Oh yes, the joys of proving a negative Perhaps a sliding scale would be interesting....precisely delineating the performance vs. earnings ratio. I'm sure "what anyone else could be doing" is quite quantifyable?

Oh, no, I don't think it is at all. I'm just saying that he might be worth it, in the sense that it is theoretically possible that it could conceivably happen. Strong argument, eh?  Wink
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
coa764
Posts: 309
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:16 pm

Quoting N844AA (Reply 39):
Anyway, these are all public companies. We have a right and an interest in knowing what they're paying the folks in charge

And again my question is why do you care? How is this little tidbit of knowledge going to improve your status in life? Is the world going to be a better place tomorrow knowing their salaries? what is the need to know, why is it so important to follow the salaries of the CEO's?
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
RogerThat
Posts: 505
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:13 pm

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 34):
in 2000. That year there was 35,000 applicants for being "just a flight attendant" (as the public likes to say) for UA. They only hired 1,200

I would say that makes the FAs overpaid not the CEO. There are more applicants than incumbents. There is no shortage of people willing to do the job. The LCCs have no trouble filling their open positions and they are putting a licking on the legacies every chance they get.

Go ahead and bring in a new CEO. Unless he can get the price of oil down, UA doesnt have a prayer.
 
n844aa
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 44):
And again my question is why do you care? How is this little tidbit of knowledge going to improve your status in life? Is the world going to be a better place tomorrow knowing their salaries? what is the need to know, why is it so important to follow the salaries of the CEO's?

Reasonable executive compensation is an example of good corporate governance. An excessive salary is a poor use of resources and an inadequate salary may mean that the airline isn't able to recruit or retain top talent. I own stock in more than one of the companies listed above, so that is why I'm interested.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
FA4UA
Topic Author
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RE: Airline CEO Compensation

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 44):
And again my question is why do you care? How is this little tidbit of knowledge going to improve your status in life? Is the world going to be a better place tomorrow knowing their salaries? what is the need to know, why is it so important to follow the salaries of the CEO's?

If this subject frustrates you so much then why participate in the discussion? Just pointing out a "hot button" issue within this business that a lot of people find interesting.

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better