ghost77
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Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:18 pm

As always there's no official information from our airlines, similar to AM B777's/or the second batch for new B737s (which was announced way off late).... and many more.

Anyway, I read in another mexican forum that some hours ago a user listened on the radio an interview with MX people confirming the arrival of 2 A330-200s to the airline later this year and 2 A340-500 in 2006 for China, Japan and Thailand!

They also confirmed the arrival of additional A318/319/320s for the next months.

Something I also read in an article this day, there's no direct link so I'm pasting a little extract from the article:

.....Es actualmente una de las aerolineas mas importantes de la region, y esta dicho que para el 2006, Mexicana iniciará operaciones a Asia, especificamente China, Japon, y Tailandia, con aviones Airbus A340-500.....

As some people have told APM Group, A340's will be introduced sometime near June and July of 2006.

What else can I say! Finally what we were all in Mexico expecting for years from our airlines is becoming a reality! About time! Hurray!   

Ricardo APM!

[Edited 2005-04-26 06:20:52]
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
JOSEMEX
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:20 pm

Any idea where the 345's will come from?
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1500
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:23 pm

Hey Ghost  wave 

At least some good news for Airbus today. It was looking like disaster for Airbus today with AC ordering the T7's and many other people saying that NW and KE were also going to order the 787 over the A350. Wow~ will this service be direct? If then, JL is getting some competition because their service right now is routed through YVR, but the airline does not have the equipment to open a direct service? Or with payload restrictions, can a 744 make it? Eitherway, glad for Airbus and MX.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
ghost77
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting JoseMEX (Reply 1):
Any idea where the 345's will come from?

I hope that at least MX gets new A345s. Perhaps another possibility is getting them from SQ or AC.

**
Hi Ktachiya,

Technically there are aircrafts with enough range to fly MEX-Asia non-stop and viceversa but Boeing and Airbus never consider on their rings of range maps other factors such as MEX's high airport elevation, temperature, etc!

Therefore MX will also be forced to make a stop. They are studying the possibility of flying from MEX via SJD (Los Cabos) or TIJ-Asia. I don't know how this will affect JL flights. At least there will now be more competition with LAX!

Ricardo APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:47 pm

Good for Mexicana --more direct service to far-away places and no U.S. transit-visa overhead either, of course. I hope they're getting a good deal on 'em too.
 
Sean-SAN-
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:34 pm

Who really flies from Mexico to Thailand? Unless they're hoping to get alot of east coast US based traffic..
 
mtyfreak
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:41 pm

Excellent!!!

It was about time,

Is MX going to have a real first class now?

Or is it going to be same old "Clase Ejecutiva" all the way to Asia?

I think JL has the advantage there unless MX does something about it.


Konishiwa
Only here for the beer...
 
brons2
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:44 pm

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 3):
Technically there are aircrafts with enough range to fly MEX-Asia non-stop and viceversa but Boeing and Airbus never consider on their rings of range maps other factors such as MEX's high airport elevation, temperature, etc!

Therefore MX will also be forced to make a stop. They are studying the possibility of flying from MEX via SJD (Los Cabos) or TIJ-Asia. I don't know how this will affect JL flights. At least there will now be more competition with LAX!

MEX-NRT is only about 6100nm!

I can certainly appreciate the hot n high conditions at MEX. But you're telling me that an A345 can't make even _that_ distance? According to the published specs on airbus.com, that would be 2900nm under the plane's max range.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
trevd
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:07 pm

Think ghost77 has this right...

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 3):
I hope that at least MX gets new A345s. Perhaps another possibility is getting them from SQ or AC.

Expect many of the lessor owner A345 will be coming out of Air Canada (and SQ too!!) as most as they transition to the 772LR and 787's.
 
mike1974
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:53 pm

Awesome news for MX!!! Finally both AM and MX will have widebodies! Just a question about the routes to Asia; anyone know if any Asian carriers will introduce service to MEX? Airlines like Cathay, Air China, China Airlines, China Southern, etc. have the metal to start service to the mexican capital and i know some of them have been debating for a while to give the go for such route. I think the market is there to start 2 weekly flights or even more. Wouldnt mind seeing more international airlines servicing MEX (especially from Asia)either. But again, congrats to MX

Also, anyone have any idea how many weekly flights MX will have to such destinations? 2x weekly flights sounds feasible.

[Edited 2005-04-26 13:08:06]

[Edited 2005-04-26 13:08:48]
 
galapagapop
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:14 pm

I'm sure the A345's come from AC as AC recieves their first 3 777's on 2006. Now whether their LR, I'm not sure.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 5):

I'm not sure that there's enough traffic to warrant the route, but it is my understanding-- without supporting evidence --that among the upper middle income Mexicans, Thailand is a very popular destination. Don't know if there's enough traffic though; even out of LAX, where there's a sizeable Thai community; Thai Airways has a difficult time filling up their 744s to BKK. Realistically speaking, China and Japan are more promising.



I don't want to get carried away, as we know very well with Mexican aviation, its a very wishy-washy affair, but this certainly puts a grin on my face, let's hope it does come true. veryhappy   thumbsup 


 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
Cruiser
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:26 am

It would be (yet another) blow to Airbus if they bought the A345's off of AC.
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
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PanAm_DC10
Crew
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting Ghost77 (Thread starter):
As always there's no official information from our airlines, similar to AM B777's/or the second batch for new B737s (which was announced way off late).... and many more

As you mention, no official information, which is why I rely on your posts to keep me updated, thank you  Smile A question if I may, even if OT, which batch of 737s are the second?

Thanks and Regards

PANAM DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
rojo
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:13 am

What is Mexicana trying to do? Self destruct!!! Ohh, wait, they have been doing that for years. Thinking of getting a couple of A340’s will only hurt its cost structure, since they have not developed any market that could support that airplane.

The facts are: CINTRA holds a monopoly of the Mexican skies and it has not made a profit in the last 4 years… The only good (financial) news in those 4 years has been the money paid back to AM and MX by SENEAM thanks to an “Amparo” which made their financial statement look "not that bad". AM and MX are still operating in red numbers, facing tough competition and losing market share.

I can see the requirement for the A330 to operate the MEX-EZE route and maybe a new route, but the A340-500??? Even the A340 will be too much for MX. This happens when you give the management of an airline to our beloved government… I can picture them saying: “lets get new airplanes and start flying intercontinental, that might increase the market value of our airline”.

Mexicana needs to concentrate in its strongest market (Mexico – USA) and start developing new markets (Mexico – South and Central America or Mexico - Canada) with the resources they have (airplanes in its current fleet) and by not jeopardizing tons of money in those ventures. That will allow them to pull from the market if it is not profitable (take the MDW venture for example).

Hope the A340-500 never materialize...
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:13 am

bet they're from Air Canada as they put the Airbii widebodies out to pasture...
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:28 am

I would say that the A340-500s are just coming out of Air Canada. They have two A340-500s and are retiring them from their fleet soon for the arrival of their new 777s.

Singapore Airlines hasn't yet ordered the 777-200LR yet so they might keep their A340-500s.



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MX also might be reciving the A330s from AC or even if they where going to get A340-300s they also might come from AC.


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What we haven't thought about is how horrible the new Mexicana livery will look on a bigger plane like a A340 or A330!!!


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PyroGX41487
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:21 am

Expect many of the lessor owner A345 will be coming out of Air Canada (and SQ too!!) as most as they transition to the 772LR and 787's

It won't be SQ because they recently announced they weren't in the market for ULH Aircraft.
 
navega
Posts: 467
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:27 am

ROJO,

What drama, be happy that your country has an airline that is making money
when most of the others in the Western Hemisphere are loosing. Concentrate
on the positive side and be happy.

I think that what is happening at Mexicana is long overdue and that it is
a great move for a Mexican Airlines which is one of the oldest flying airlines
in the world.

Good news for Mexicana and I hope they get the best and biggest fleet
in the world.
 
FXMD11
Posts: 171
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:37 am

Thailand? Considering that we have a very limited trade (0.38% compared to other countries) between these 2 countries, except for some automotive business, I do not see this route coming trough unless BKK becomes a leg out of TYO once a week or so. Thais are not eager to visit Mexico and prefer rather the US. I have seen so many airlines coming and going to in BKK
(SA)">DL,CO,CP,RG,SA,TO,LO,OK etc) All were very ambitous but after a year or so, they terminated their services. The Thai Market is very unique and no, I am not a pessimist but this just doesnt fit.
 
gigneil
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:40 am

MX is not going to be receiving anything from AC in the near term.

AC operates no A330-200s, and they're not expecting their 772LRs for several more years.

An A340-500 should have no need to stop from MEX to make NRT nonstop. BKK or SIN, possibly.

N
 
airbazar
Posts: 6798
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting Rojo (Reply 15):
I can see the requirement for the A330 to operate the MEX-EZE route and maybe a new route, but the A340-500??? Even the A340 will be too much for MX. This happens when you give the management of an airline to our beloved government… I can picture them saying: “lets get new airplanes and start flying intercontinental, that might increase the market value of our airline”.

Problem is China and Japan are about to become huge trading partners so there will be the need to link both countries for business travelers. You can't do this with any aircraft smaller than the the A345, not until the 787 come out and a used A345 is as cheap as you can get. I think MX has the right idea.
 
rojo
Posts: 2254
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 6:08 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting NAVEGA (Reply 18):
What drama, be happy that your country has an airline that is making money
when most of the others in the Western Hemisphere are loosing. Concentrate
on the positive side and be happy.

I am happy that my country has an airline that is making money and I am happy that the name of the only airline making money is AVIACSA...  thumbsup 

And it is not a drama, it is the reality you can't see being far away from Mexico...
 
jmc1975
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:45 am

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 7):
MEX-NRT is only about 6100nm!

I can certainly appreciate the hot n high conditions at MEX. But you're telling me that an A345 can't make even _that_ distance? According to the published specs on airbus.com, that would be 2900nm under the plane's max range.

The physical range is not the issue. The hot and high conditions at MEX would pose a challenge for any aircraft flying nonstop to Asia. They would be subject to significant pax and payload restrictions. On the other hand, a MEX-TIJ-NRT route on AM's 777 would be quite feasible. Without seeing or knowing the official numbers, I would imagine TIJ would have the most pax/cargo demand from Asia than any other Mexican city besides MEX.
.......
 
navega
Posts: 467
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:51 am

Rojo now I know why all the negativeness against Mexicana and Aeromexico.

Your not being honest your being DRAMATIC.

Your posts will no longer be read by me as they have no basis now.

Thanks for letting us all know.
 
Mexicana757
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:22 am

Congratulations to Mexicana for getting the A340-500s.  bouncy  And I also think that those A340s are going to come from AC or SQ. Where ever they're coming from (A340s) MX is taking giant steps. I wish MX the best whatever plans they have for the future.  praise 

I would have preferred to see MX go to Europe, like London or FRA. The Mexico-Europe market is big and both AM and MX can serve it.

I think Thailand will be served through either Japan or China.
 
AM001
Posts: 149
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting NAVEGA (Reply 24):

Your posts will no longer be read by me as they have no basis now.

(please insert here your favorite robot voice):
... and your life system will be terminated, after any trace of you and/or your un-based and cold, cruel posts will also be deleted from my memory...

Pleeez... don't be that childish... try to read and write facts, and not only sentimental stuff like "I wish I was a MX pilot", or "I wish MX to have the biggest and most beautiful fleet in the whole universe"... airliners here in Mexico and in the whole world (maybe also this galaxy) need reasonable and strategic growth and planning, and not just a magic lamp's genie to make money... which is apparently what our Cintra fellow are thinking... it's just common wisdom...

Rgds...

AM001

P.S.: Please note this is NOT a pro-AM post... so don't start throwing rotten eggs to me....

[Edited 2005-04-26 23:57:29]
"Je vole car cela libere mon esprit de la tyrannie des choses insignifiantes" - St. Exupery
 
mike1974
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:37 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:37 am

Has MX considered other Asian destinations besides Thailand? Maybe Hong Kong or South Korea or even Taiwan? I gotta agree if the market for a MEX-Thailand is there. But then like Mex757 said, it could be served through either Japan or China. Also, i wish MX could upgrade its new color scheme by the time the widebodies arrive.
 
N405MX
Posts: 1156
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:59 am

Quoting NAVEGA (Reply 18):
What drama, be happy that your country has an airline that is making money
when most of the others in the Western Hemisphere are loosing. Concentrate
on the positive side and be happy.

Yep, lot of changes in MX, indeed, the Asia market will grow, also, as MX Cargo will be back, the planes will be full of it, and cargo market for asia is a really good one.

Quoting Rojo (Reply 22):
I am happy that the name of the only airline making money is AVIACSA...

Actually not, MX is also making money (the A318´s are really better than the expected), just some numbers:
MX profit in the first 3 months of the year: $3.4 million USD

AM loose in the firts 3 months of the year: $118 million USD (a lot of money)

Despite a lot of bad decisions, some are really good ones, for example, the replace of the 767 with A330´s, that´s a lot of savings just in crew training, and MX have some experience with big airplanes, just remember, MX does some maintenance to LH planes, and don´t forget that MX time ago had several DC-10´s.

Quoting JoseMEX (Reply 1):
Any idea where the 345's will come from?

If not SQ, expect to be brand new  biggrin 

Quoting Ghost77 (Thread starter):
As some people have told APM Group, A340's will be introduced sometime near June and July of 2006.

The first one is expected to arrive in june (if nothing hapens).

MX VAMOS POR TODO.....! ! !
Life is what happens when you have other plans.....
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:17 am

Actually, if MX can get Airbus to put in to the Trent 556 engine on the A340-500, then MEX-NRT on a full-load year-round is definitely possible.  Smile The extra thrust of the Trent 556 (as opposed to the Trent 553 used on the A345) could make it easier for the hot and high takeoffs from MEX.
 
pdxtriple7
Posts: 641
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:50 am

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 3):
They are studying the possibility of flying from MEX via SJD (Los Cabos) or TIJ-Asia.

Is there actually any possibly of MEX-Asia flights operating through SJD (Los Cabos)? Is the runway there long enough? I go there for spring break every year, and it would be awesome to see a 340-500 up close on the tarmac there!

pdxtriple7
 
rojo
Posts: 2254
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:50 am

Quoting N405MX (Reply 28):
Actually not, MX is also making money (the A318´s are really better than the expected), just some numbers:
MX profit in the first 3 months of the year: $3.4 million USD

AM loose in the firts 3 months of the year: $118 million USD (a lot of money)

In fact, MX has been improving its numbers, but they still have lots of problems and competition is increasing. Load factors are terrible (around 64% for 2004) which they compensate with high fares thanks to the monopolistic strategy started by CINTRA to kill competition (codeshare with AM). Most of the domestic market is served in a monopolistic way where AM and MX share flights to almost all destinations. That gives both airlines the power to keep their market share and increase fares. When the CFC suspends the codeshare between this two airlines, fares will drop and both airlines will see their income nose dive. It is clear that the government is not playing fair by allowing CINTRA to be a TELMEX in the airline industry. Lets see who wants to invest money in two companies with high operating costs and about to face a fare war. Better, I will like to see who will buy MX and AM as separate companies... and if you add the possible venture of MX into Asia, uuupps.

Finally, please remember that MX and AM numbers need to be consolidated, since they are owned by the same holding company (which is a public company with stock trading in the BMV). Owners don't care about who is making money, they care about the profit/loss of the company. And if they can not make money with a monopolistic codeshare agreement, how will they be able to make money without it...

Quoting N405MX (Reply 28):
Despite a lot of bad decisions, some are really good ones, for example, the replace of the 767 with A330´s, that´s a lot of savings just in crew training, and MX have some experience with big airplanes, just remember, MX does some maintenance to LH planes, and don´t forget that MX time ago had several DC-10´s.

I never said that the A330 was a bad decision:

Quote: "I can see the requirement for the A330 to operate the MEX-EZE route and maybe a new route, but the A340-500???"

The A330 is indeed a good decision which comes after the development of the MEX-EZE route with a leased (short term) B767-300. MX knows that the B767 is not making money anymore on the EZE route since AR lowered the fares when they started flying a couple of months ago. Yields have gone down thanks to the configuration of the airplane, which has too many J seats. MX needs to reduce J capacity and increase Y but can not do it thanks to a clause in the lease agreement which prevents them from changing the configuration of the airplane. To cope with that, the A330 is a good solution. About maintenance, it is not about having experience with big airplanes, it is about economies of scale. A fleet of two widebody aircraft could result in big expenses. If you add to that the A340, which has different engines, I can bet MX will need to spend lots of money in spare parts for their mix of engines.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 29):
Actually, if MX can get Airbus to put in to the Trent 556 engine on the A340-500, then MEX-NRT on a full-load year-round is definitely possible

Already available for order.

Quoting Rojo (Reply 31):
If you add to that the A340, which has different engines, I can bet MX will need to spend lots of money in spare parts for their mix of engines.

That really depends. The Trent 700 and the Trent 500 have a very, very large amount of commonality. If they get Trent 700s on their 332s, then they will enjoy some scale.

N
 
rojo
Posts: 2254
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 6:08 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 32):
That really depends. The Trent 700 and the Trent 500 have a very, very large amount of commonality. If they get Trent 700s on their 332s, then they will enjoy some scale.

Hope they do it, since MX likes the idea of getting their planes with totally different engines: take for example the A318/A319/A320 fleet, they have a mix of CFM's and IAE's.
 
FA4AM
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:10 pm

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:16 pm

Quoting N405MX (Reply 28):
Actually not, MX is also making money (the A318´s are really better than the expected), just some numbers:
MX profit in the first 3 months of the year: $3.4 million USD

AM loose in the firts 3 months of the year: $118 million USD (a lot of money)

Hi N405MX. Sorry to ask, but where are you getting your figures from?

There has long been a debate whether one airline is making money over the other one. I've been trying to do my homework looking for financial information on each airline besides the CINTRA's reports posted on their webpage.

It would be much help for me if you could tell me how to get that information , I really need to know for good if we are really going that bad (I mean AM)  banghead 
 
fly727
Posts: 1752
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:27 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Rojo (Reply 22):
I am happy that my country has an airline that is making money and I am happy that the name of the only airline making money is AVIACSA...

Ohhhh yeah Baby.

I'm actually happy for Mexicana. Rojo mentioned it was risky;probably right, but bottomline besides horrible marketing management it's good to see MX is doing something for a change.

Quoting NAVEGA (Reply 24):
Your posts will no longer be read by me as they have no basis now



RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
JOSEMEX
Posts: 1437
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 11:44 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:42 pm

While I basically agree with Rojo, I am glad to see one of our mainline carriers (MX in this case) trying something new, for a change. I really hope they have done their numbers and know what they're doing.

Let's just pray that whoever's making the decision for opening the routes to Asia and getting 345's is not the same guy who picked MX's new color scheme. 

Quoting NAVEGA (Reply 24):
Your posts will no longer be read by me as they have no basis now.

¡Lo que hay que oír!.  

[Edited 2005-04-27 06:44:55]

[Edited 2005-04-27 06:47:06]

[Edited 2005-04-27 06:49:29]
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2563
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:11 pm

As much as I would love to see an MX aircraft into NRT, it will not be allowed into NRT due to the slots conditions. Perhaps NGO or KIX is a good alternative. If MX is allowed slots into NRT, then expect EK and other airlines to make a big ruckus.
 
aviasian
Posts: 1244
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 8:11 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:43 pm

FXMD11 : You are spot-on about the potential (or lack of potential) for significant travel between Thailand and Mexico.

Of the 10,082,109 visitors to Thailand in 2003, 679,210 came from the Americas (meaning both North and South America). Of these, 137,963 came from Canada, 514,863 from USA, 2,348 from Argentina, 6,784 from Brazil and other countries from the Americas contributed the rest. Mexico's contribution is too minor to even track (according to statistics provided to PATA by the Tourism Authority of Thailand).

Mexico's contribution of international visitors arrival into Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia were similar no significant enough to be tracked individually. It is interesting to note however, that 11,173 Mexicans travel to Hong Kong of which 7,103 arrived by air.

Elsewhere, Mexican arrivals to these destinations are as follows:

11,173 to China (7,103 by air)
1,222 to Chinese Taipei
11,087 to Japan3,776 to South Korea
809 to Macau (16 by air)
2,679 to New Zealand

For any Mexicana flights beyond Japan to be viable, the airline would certainly have to rely on 5th Freedon traffic beyond Japan (or any other intermediate point) to its final destination in North / Southeast / South Asia.

KC Sim
Bangkok

A further 1,222 Mexicans arrived in Chinese Taipei in 2003
 
sr117
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 2:00 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:26 pm

Well I wouldn't bet on the Thailand thing, it's been said that Asia is in their plans but no real specific route has been mentioned, it was probably just a consideration but as others have mentioned here, the materialization of any route to Thailand is quite iffy really. Japan and China sound like sure fire destinations, maybe not NRT because of slot restrictions, but perhaps that new Chubu airport, or Shangai and Hong Kong.

Is it risky, yes ! But really.. who would have guessed that Lan Chile would be flying to AKL and SYD? Airlines have to take risks sometimes, and Japan and China are good choices when think of future growth oportunities, so it seems like a well calculated one. MX could capitalize on carrying traffic from South America that does not want or cannot transit through the US. Could they not continue codesharing with AM so they could feed the Asia flights with their Southamerican network? I am not sure there has been anything said about prohibiting codesharing between the two in the future. And really, after 2006 it's anyone's guess what tune the CFC will be dancing to.

Scary to see those results for the first trimester BTW! Especially AM's. But really.. it's constantly mentioned how badly run both airlines are, how managers they can't tell the difference between a square and a circle, blah blah blah. So really, by the same measure, with competent hands both should do much better. AM and MX have not so different cost structures, so management is certainly to blame for AM's crappy results. I have full faith that someone can turn things around and improve both airlines results. Will there be lots of competition soon? Sure there will, but how many of them will survive? Not many !

Best of luck to MX
 
mike1974
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:37 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:38 pm

thanks for those figures there Aviasian. Interesting facts there and like it was mentioned earlier alot of airlines didnt have a market in Thailand or are having a hard time filling those planes. Wow, didint realize how many Mexicans visited Hong Kong and Japan and to some extent China. Wonder what the numbers are the other way around. How many Asian visitors does MEX get every year? Would appreciate those numbers if anyone has them handy. Well MX is taking a high risk but can turn into great rewards in the future. I remember reading on an Asian newspaper about both Chile and Mexico negotiation with Hong Kong about starting direct flights to and from both countries. Wonder what happened with that? Anyone know?
 
AM001
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:44 pm

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting Aviasian (Reply 38):
Mexico's contribution of international visitors arrival into Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia were similar no significant enough to be tracked individually.



Quoting Mike1974 (Reply 40):
Well MX is taking a high risk but can turn into great rewards in the future.

By what I've been reading, MX is surely making a heavy bet on the Asia issue... I would have considered Australia a better market... anyway, I really, really hope this works fine... but I guess we'll just have to sit, wait and see...

In any case, is there any contingency plan for the A340's in case the Asian routes turn out to be a failure? what will be the leasing terms? any other possible (real, not "happy-land" thoughts) routes in which this particularly ER equipment could be used, and currently being studied?

I just don't imagine a 340 filled with ethnic passage en route from MEX to LAX... and for the only actual long haul route there is right now (I mean, EZE), yield and range are greatly covered with the 330... right??? I mean, there is a possibility that the new babies could turn into white elephants...

Regards to all...

AM001
"Je vole car cela libere mon esprit de la tyrannie des choses insignifiantes" - St. Exupery
 
N405MX
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 1:46 pm

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting FA4AM (Reply 34):
Hi N405MX. Sorry to ask, but where are you getting your figures from?

Those numbers where given by CINTRA, they´ll post them later.

Also the numbers of AM last year where $135 million USD net loose, and that number I got it from AM´s system, they posted in their check-in system.

Quoting Rojo (Reply 31):
but they still have lots of problems and competition is increasing. Load factors are terrible (around 64% for 2004) which they compensate with high fares thanks to the monopolistic strategy started by CINTRA to kill competition (codeshare with AM).

MX load factor to make money is about 55%, AM load factor is about 75% to make money, huge difference. Also, CINTRA wanted to save AM, and disapear MX, even inside of CINTRA, MX have to take care of competition and CINTRA itself.

Quoting Rojo (Reply 31):
Lets see who wants to invest money in two companies with high operating costs and about to face a fare war. Better, I will like to see who will buy MX and AM as separate companies...

Like said in some other threads, lot´s of people interested in MX (because is profitable), just some names..... Slim, Azcárraga, and the ones of Grupo Modelo.....

Quoting Rojo (Reply 31):
When the CFC suspends the codeshare between this two airlines, fares will drop and both airlines will see their income nose dive.

You´re right, with no codeshare the fare war will increase, even with the codeshare there are a lot of trouble, because AM/5D don´t take some MX/QA fares, because some of them are really low.

Quoting Rojo (Reply 31):
Finally, please remember that MX and AM numbers need to be consolidated, since they are owned by the same holding company (which is a public company with stock trading in the BMV). Owners don't care about who is making money, they care about the profit/loss of the company. And if they can not make money with a monopolistic codeshare agreement, how will they be able to make money without it...

The codeshare in fact was to save AM, that´s why they pull out MX from some destinations, in fact it helped both, when the codeshare ends, this is going to be very interesting, and in october when the airlines got sold, we will see.

Quoting Rojo (Reply 31):
To cope with that, the A330 is a good solution. About maintenance, it is not about having experience with big airplanes, it is about economies of scale. A fleet of two widebody aircraft could result in big expenses. If you add to that the A340, which has different engines, I can bet MX will need to spend lots of money in spare parts for their mix of engines.

Good point (the good idea will be choose the A330 with RR engines like the ones of the A340, to keep costs down, in this point I agree with Gigneil) about the economies of scale, having a single 767 is becoming a headache, because of the spares, crew training, etc, and because is not as similar to the 757 like the buses are (A318/19/20-330/40)

The A340-500 is a good idea, because it´s a new plane (even used) and because of it´s range; the A343 is almost out of production line, so taking care of it (maintenance) will be a little bit tricky.

Quoting Mike1974 (Reply 40):
Well MX is taking a high risk but can turn into great rewards in the future. I remember reading on an Asian newspaper about both Chile and Mexico negotiation with Hong Kong about starting direct flights to and from both countries. Wonder what happened with that? Anyone know?

You´re right, high risk with big rewards in the future (if everything goes like planned)

MX already got the route granted, only need the plane.....  expressionless 

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 37):
As much as I would love to see an MX aircraft into NRT, it will not be allowed into NRT due to the slots conditions.

How about Osaka ?  biggrin 
Life is what happens when you have other plans.....
 
mike1974
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:37 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:13 am

MX may start out in the red if it does give the Asian routes a "go" but i think they wull be fine. The market for China is definitely there. I can even see Air China and/or China Southern sending its own metal to MEX. Japan is another strong market candidate but like it was said, MX may find hard to acquire slots at NRT. Hong Kong can become profitable along with Taiwan and even Singapore. Im sure MX officials and Cintra have thought it through. In regard to destinations in Oceania (Australia and New Zealand) it may work but the chances for a more profitable return in the long term may be in Asia. China and i think Hong Kong have approved Mexico as a tourist destination and Mexico has waived visa requirements for Hong Kong visitors. So steps are being made for this to come true and become succesfull.
 
mike1974
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:37 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:28 am

thanks for the info N405. Good to see MX got the route granted. So im sure Hong Kong is one of the destinations being considered when it tought about getting the 340s. Wasnt MX and CX (Cathay Pacific code right?) in negotations to codeshare flights to and from both countries also? Correct me if im wrong on that. Anyways, that would be sweet to finally see MX metal in Asia!
 
XA744
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:20 am

Fellows, long time no see.

I believe Rojo, FXMD11 and Aviasian have a point.

Appended bellow please find my two Mexican cents in contribution to the topic.

MEX-SJD-NRT/NGO/KIX has a strong potential. There is a market niche that could be gradually developed in the years to come. Lots of money for marketing and promotion would be needed from both the airline and government, in order to position Mexico´s Baja Peninsula as an attractive destination in the Japanese market. It needs to be be mentioned that Japanese travelers always react in a sensitive manner to bad publicity given to tourist destinations. Mexico, we know that, is nowadays getting not very nice comments in the media around the world, and that represents a real blow to projects and dreams.

MEX-TIJ-NRT/KIX could be developed mainly as a business market and as an alternative to current operations by JL ex MEX. If actually additional capacity is needed between Mexico and Japan, then Mexicana could fill the gap. The development of a joint operation or ample code share agreement between JL/MX could be explored and implemented. Mexicana can´t just afford to bleed on such a costly venture and operation from the very beginning. Maximum caution needs to be taken.

MAX-CHINA ( PEK/SHA) not viable at the moment. Again, lots of money, time and cash would need to be put in the Chinese market to create awareness and interest in visiting Mexico. Business wise, Mexico is becoming an interesting market for the Chinese, but we can´t see the same happening to Mexican entrepreneurs in China. An aggressive codeshare operation by MX on CX or MU metal would sound more down to earth.

MEX-BKK does not even need to be discussed. There is no market at all in any way.

Best regards to you all.
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
MGA
Posts: 717
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:58 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:30 am

Doesnt the 346 cost less, have the range and carry more people ? Why dont they just go for that? Isnt it cheaper to operate?

MGA
Que viva el guaro, el dinero y los aviones!!!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:33 am

No, no, and yes. And because they need range and field performance not seats. And yes, but only if you fill up those extra seats with high-yield traffic.

The 346 is not the right plane for MX to fly to Asia. Europe, sure.

N
 
ghost77
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:15 pm

Ok, here I go!

Quoting MTYFREAK (Reply 6):
Is MX going to have a real first class now? Or is it going to be same old "Clase Ejecutiva" all the way to Asia?

Hopefully they get one! Being the Asian market a high yield one I’m sure they will!

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 7):
I can certainly appreciate the hot n high conditions at MEX. But you're telling me that an A345 can't make even _that_ distance?

Yes, in theory A345 has the range and can make it! But it can’t! Being MEX hot and high won’t let the A345 perform as if it was at sea level. For instance, there wouldn’t be a problem if MEX decides to fly Asia-MEX but the other way round it’s impossible! Even AeroMexico will suffer with their new B777s which will be powered with GE90-94B in the MEX-MAD/CDG flights during the summer. B777s will have restrictions when flying out from MEX.

Quoting Mike1974 (Reply 9):
Awesome news for MX!!! Finally both AM and MX will have widebodies! Just a question about the routes to Asia; anyone know if any Asian carriers will introduce service to MEX? Airlines like Cathay, Air China, China Airlines, China Southern, etc.

Impossible unless the Canadian government allows a Chinese carrier to do something similar to what JL is doing at the moment, which I highly doubt, or else, let them fly via Mexican territory which I also doubt since recently there’s been a protectionist policy for our carriers and 5th freedom rights in Mexican land.

Quoting PANAM_DC10 (Reply 13):
As you mention, no official information, which is why I rely on your posts to keep me updated, thank you A question if I may, even if OT, which batch of 737s are the second?

You’re welcome. Second batch are the 10 new B737-700W are due for delivery next June to December plus 2 SH frames.

Quoting Rojo (Reply 15):
What is Mexicana trying to do? Self destruct!!!

Maybe! All I see is everything oriented and business related to the sale of CINTRA. I see they are trying to make both airlines a little more interesting with the arrival of wide bodies and new routes.


Quoting Rojo (Reply 22):
I am happy that my country has an airline that is making money and I am happy that the name of the only airline making money is AVIACSA...

Yay! I’m also very happy for them! Can’t wait to see their special 15 anniversary c/s! Despite B733/735s have been delayed a few months I’m sure sooner or later they’ll get here.

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 23):
The physical range is not the issue. The hot and high conditions at MEX would pose a challenge for any aircraft flying nonstop to Asia. They would be subject to significant pax and payload restrictions.

No expert on A345 engines and performance but that’s the main reason. Almost if not all aircraft are always restricted and things get worst during the summer.

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 25):
I would have preferred to see MX go to Europe, like London or FRA. The Mexico-Europe market is big and both AM and MX can serve it.

Don’t discard the possibility. I don’t see AM having plans in the short term for a European expansion. LH recently reduced frequencies and the W.C. 2006 it’s on the next corner. They will have a free A332 and they could even open both destinations flying 6X to LGW with B763 6X to FRA with A332! I’m sure they’ll keep their sole B767 until the contract signed with SK expires next Dec 06.

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 25):
I think Thailand will be served through either Japan or China.



Quoting Mike1974 (Reply 27):
Has MX considered other Asian destinations besides Thailand?

Correct, rumors say MX will fly to Thai through either Japan or China! As for the destinations, MX has intentions to land in PVG/KIX/BKK and other routes, not exactly Asia but SYD/AKL are also planned [don’t know exactly when, but they are considered] and being served as one destination making use the free open skies policy.

Quoting PDXtriple7 (Reply 30):
Is there actually any possibly of MEX-Asia flights operating through SJD (Los Cabos)? Is the runway there long enough?

Runway it’s not an issue, but tarmac and taxiways will be unless they get prepared for those dates. So far TIJ has been the only one building taxiways and improving the airport facilities.

Quoting Aviasian (Reply 38):
Elsewhere, Mexican arrivals to these destinations are as follows:

11,173 to China (7,103 by air)
01,222 to Chinese Taipei
11,087 to Japan
03,776 to South Korea
00,809 to Macau (16 by air)
02,679 to New Zealand
Total:



Quoting Mike1974 (Reply 40):
Wonder what the numbers are the other way around. How many Asian visitors does MEX get every year?

A few more stats:

Total passengers arriving from Asia with JL:

2000: 22,000
2001: 26,000
2002: 32,000
2003: 33,000

Certainly there’s a lot of market to steal from JL and us carriers in the next years to come!


****
Finally, it’s been said that we will tomorrow have official news from the airline. Dunno if it will be related to this, but it’s been said there are very good news.


Ricardo APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
N77014
Posts: 812
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:16 pm

RE: Mexicana To Get The Airbus 340-500

Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:00 pm

Are we talking passenger or cargo flights here?

As pointed out earlier, mexican tourism to SE Asia is almost nil. There is nothing in the passenger figures to suppose a MEX-BKK city pair would survive past the planning stages.

As far as NRT, while the desire for something beyond a JL 1-stop is there, when asian carriers did serve MEX, the support fell through. MH provided B744 service as an LAX tag-on, and it died a quiet death.

Until the MEX market can prove that it can wholeheartedly support Asia-direct service, I'm afraid this idea is stillborn.
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