DIA
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Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:52 am

From the Boeing website on this "huge" issue with a.netters:


(April 26, 2005 New 787 Comments)

"Along with tremendous customer response, the 787 program continues defining the airplane, including finalizing its exterior look.

"Our designers took the concept image that reflected our aspirations for the program -- a truly unique and recognizable external shape -- and created an efficient airplane that people will instantly recognize," said Bair.

Passengers will recognize the 787 because of its distinctive nose, wings, tail and engine cowl. Inside, passengers will find bigger windows, innovative lighting, more personal space, bigger overhead bins, a lower cabin altitude during flight and improved humidity.

-Boeing Company





If I'm being at all honest, the "scalloped" or "serrated" engine cowls are the most distinguishing feature on the outside of the a/c. Now, when I see more photos, or even an actual 787 production model, I will probably notice the 787 is more distinguishable from other a/c than I thought. . .

And, even though the pointy nose is gone, the new nose is still different as Boeing says. . .

I think I just need to see more photos/drawings of the new (April-26 '05) design to make a better judgement.

[Edited 2005-04-26 21:54:06]
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FriendlySkies
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:01 am

There are some bigger versions of the photos on this forum that clearly show the lines:

http://www.ifdg.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=10334

Honestly, I don't think it looks that bad. I actually like the nose, the only part I don't like is the sharp-tapering of the aft fuselage. It should be more gradual IMO.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:11 am

Those engines are fascinating. In addition to the serrated edges on the outer cowl, has anybody noticed the complex shape of the cowl near the after underside of the engines? Some might interesting fairings. I find such visual details enhance my enjoyment of this plane, even though I am *most* disappointed with the conventional-ish nose. I really liked the model.
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keesje
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:15 am

It has the same span, lenght and configuration as an A332, so it´s gonna be hard from a distance.
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:16 am

Has somebody from Long Beach managed to get involved in the 787? That nose cone reminds me of the MD-11!
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tockeyhockey
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 2):
Those engines are fascinating. In addition to the serrated edges on the outer cowl, has anybody noticed the complex shape of the cowl near the after underside of the engines?

as soon as the engineers at boeing tell their bosses that they can save $10 if they don't put the serated edges on the cowlings, they will be gone!!!
 
N766UA
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:22 am

Ick... looks like a little porker in those pictures. And those cockpit windows are cheapo.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 5):
as soon as the engineers at boeing tell their bosses that they can save $10 if they don't put the serated edges on the cowlings, they will be gone!!!

I think the serated edges are designed to break up the sound emissions...someone correct me if I'm wrong?

(note, I understand it was a joke...)
 
gigneil
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:45 am

You're correct.

They're called chevrons, and were first featured on the engine cowling of a prototype Trent 600 for the XQLR.

They are presently in production on the CF34-10s on E170s and 190s.

N
 
gaut
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 8):
You're correct.

They're called chevrons, and were first featured on the engine cowling of a prototype Trent 600 for the XQLR.

They are presently in production on the CF34-10s on E170s and 190s.

E170s are powered by CF34-8E and E170's by CF34-10E. Those engines are completely different.
They both have chevrons but on nozzle and not on cowls like the B7E7.

Regards

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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 8):
They're called chevrons, and were first featured on the engine cowling of a prototype Trent 600 for the XQLR.

They do a fairly good job at it too, though I understand a little thrust is lost. Here they are on the T600 and 747-400XQLR



I was really suprised how stumpy the 787-8 turned out... I was expecting something a little more slender, though it is a very wide fuselage, I should have expected as such.
 
moose1226
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:09 am

The nose looks like the A380. Definitely not a good thing. The 767/777 noses are much more attractive.  crying   crying 
 
dl021
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:15 am

OK good job finding those enlargements. It shows the distinctive quality of the nose and the narrower tail.

It is more mundane than what Boeing was advertising even yesterday, but it still looks fairly unique. I'd like to see a final copy of an interior.
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Blackhawk144
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:18 am

Although I definetaly agree that the first design was SO much better...I don't really hate the new one. You actually have to look at the large pictures. I was so shocked to see such a beautiful airplane turn so ugly when I saw the small pictures, but if you see those big pics, then it looks a lot better.

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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 12):
I'd like to see a final copy of an interior.

Boeing doesn't have the final athority over cabin details to really publish an offical "final cabin." They can design certain aspects like overhead bins, celing lines, etc, but the seating and appointments are up to the customer.

The -9 variant definitly wins the "best looking" award though...
 
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:24 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
It has the same span, lenght and configuration as an A332, so it´s gonna be hard from a distance.

Now Boeing copied the 332? You just never know when to give up do you? The nose, Tail and Wings are dead giveaways. Particularly the nose.
 
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keesje
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:37 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 15):
The nose, Tail and Wings are dead giveaways.

Well considering where it all began,



the good old 330 must have something right, although it looks totally different of course.



 scratchchin 
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 16):
the good old 330 must have something right, although it looks totally different of course.

Don't you mean the 767??? You can give up any time.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 4):
Has somebody from Long Beach managed to get involved in the 787? That nose cone reminds me of the MD-11!

Kind of funny that you mentioned that, there are Long Beach engineers involved in the 787.
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 8):
You're correct.

They're called chevrons, and were first featured on the engine cowling of a prototype Trent 600 for the XQLR.

They are presently in production on the CF34-10s on E170s and 190s.

They ease the expansion of the fan air into the slip stream thus reducing aircraft noise by ~ 3dbA!!! That's a VERY noticible noise reduction.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 5):
as soon as the engineers at boeing tell their bosses that they can save $10 if they don't put the serated edges on the cowlings, they will be gone!!!

Boeing will spend the "$10" for the added slots into noise controlled airports (e.g., LHR). There is a fatigue penalty for the Chevrons; this translates into a slightly higher maint. expense.

What fascinates me is the "plug and play" nature of the engines. A FIRST for an airliner. In 15 minutes (Plus paper work), a customer (or lessor) could swap from RR to GE or GE to RR. Its going to make having the competition INTENSE. Before, the cost of changing engines was prohibitive (a nacelle often costs $1 million+). The recertification costs to switch an engine usually added another cool $1 million/airframe. Now? The biggest switching cost will be three checkout touch and go's!  Smile

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AAgent
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:48 am

Looking at the enlarged photos I was wondering which are they going to use, winglets or raked wing tips? The first photo shows winglets where the others feature the raked wing tips. Although both look very nice I think I prefer the raked wing tips.

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AAgent
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting AAgent (Reply 20):
Looking at the enlarged photos I was wondering which are they going to use, winglets or raked wing tips?

Both. The shrake is on the -8/9 and the winglet on the -3
 
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:52 am

Boeing7E7,

Thank you for the wing tip clarification.

Best Regards,
AAgent
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dtw9
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:55 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 4):
Has somebody from Long Beach managed to get involved in the 787? That nose cone reminds me of the MD-11!

Boeing has said that the 787 is truly the first joint Boeing/McDonnell-Douglas engineering venture. I think they've proved that with the elimination of any similarity from previous Boeing or MDD noses
 
AeroVodochody
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:31 am

I really wish they kept the pointy nose...
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Stealthz
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
What fascinates me is the "plug and play" nature of the engines. A FIRST for an airliner. In 15 minutes (Plus paper work), a customer (or lessor) could swap from RR to GE or GE to RR.

How does that work, did I not read, only yesterday that GE has been selected as "exclusive" engine supplier to the 787 program?

Regards

Chris
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:02 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 25):
How does that work, did I not read, only yesterday that GE has been selected as "exclusive" engine supplier to the 787 program?

No, that's the 747ADV program.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:13 am

OOPS.. me bad, should pay more attention

Thanks for the correction!

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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 25):
How does that work, did I not read, only yesterday that GE has been selected as "exclusive" engine supplier to the 787 program?



Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 26):
No, that's the 747ADV program.

Just a little clarification: on the 747A with bleed, the RR and GE would pull bleed from slightly different locations, so that wouldn't be as plug and play. With the "bleedless engines," one only needs 4 connections to the engine: 1. Mechanical holding the engine onto the airframe, 2. Fuel to the engine, 3. Computer commands to the engine, and 4. Electrical power from the engine.

Bleeds require a low and high pressure bleed location that varies a little in location engine to engine. One can still have a common nacelle and plug and play engine, but its MUCH harder than with a bleedless design. Also, due to the low predicted volume on the 747A, exclusives were demanded and GE won.

As to the looks of the plane, gorgeous!

Lightsaber
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 28):
Just a little clarification: on the 747A with bleed, the RR and GE would pull bleed from slightly different locations, so that wouldn't be as plug and play. With the "bleedless engines," one only needs 4 connections to the engine: 1. Mechanical holding the engine onto the airframe, 2. Fuel to the engine, 3. Computer commands to the engine, and 4. Electrical power from the engine.

No one was talking about bleed or bleedless, the discussion was on the interface and single engine supplier. The motivation behind GE is probably based on a map of the customers and their prefered engine suppliers.
 
CXYYZ
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:37 am

Anyone else notice in the front on picture that it looks like the pilots turned toward each other talking?

Overall though, I think I like the look. Something more distinctive would have been nice, but it's not bad.
 
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:49 am

The fact is that on the outside this is just another airplane. If the same happens to the interiors I'm not sure the flight experience will be any different from any 767. If the economics are sound it will sell great (already is) but from the passenger's point of view it looks rather dull now. Whats so dream-like in the dreamliner after all?
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AIR757200
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:52 am

I think it looks great:

 
grantcv
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:12 am

I don't see all that much difference between a 767-200 with raked winglets added and painted in the new livery and the 787. I think that side by side, they would be very hard to tell apart. I think that is quite disappointing.

Boeing talked about designing a plane that would capture the public's imagination like the 707 and the 747 did. The A380 has done that too. But yet another twinjet tube doesn't really live up to the marketing hype that came before it.

I think I woke up from my dream!!! Where is the snooze button - maybe I can get it back.
 
TomTurner
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Go

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:15 am

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 23):
Boeing has said that the 787 is truly the first joint Boeing/McDonnell-Douglas engineering venture. I think they've proved that with the elimination of any similarity from previous Boeing or MDD noses

The whole general look of the aircraft...almost seems as if Airbus helped design it as well...

sorry...
 
LH423
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:21 am

Yeah, I kinda have to say that the design is definitely turning out to be more conventional than Boeing had hyped it up to be.

Then again, the idea is to provide a quieter, more advanced, more fuel-efficient aircraft and if this is how they feel it can be done rather than shark tails and pointy noses, so be it.

LH423
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:23 am

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 33):
The A380 has done that too.

Oh please... the only commercial airplanes that are truely household names are the 747, the Concorde, and the Learjet. There are pleanty of other fine, capable, "revolutionary" airplanes, but the public's "imagination" starts and ends with those three.

More people watched the pilot of The Benefactor>/i> than know anything about the roll-out of the A388.

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 33):
I think that is quite disappointing.

It's also selling like crazy. Boohoo

Quoting Velasco (Reply 31):
If the same happens to the interiors I'm not sure the flight experience will be any different from any 767

That will be excellent. The innovations of the 787 cabin will be felt not seen, and they will be very noticible. Greater pressurization, humidity, ambient lighting, and space than any other airliner.... can't wait.

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 33):
But yet another twinjet tube doesn't really live up to the marketing hype that came before it.

Oh get over yourself. The day Boeing presented this concept (see below), they said the final design would likely appear more conventional. It's still a bold airplane, and if you take five seconds to look over it, you will see some very unique aspects. *whine* I didn't get my way *whine* it doesn't look good... boohoo

http://www.airsider.net/files/2003/0503/001/7e7.jpg
 
MD-90
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:24 am

I think it looks chubby. Obviously, Embraer and Boeing are both thinking along the same lines as far as efficiency goes, because those 787 pictures look like a scaled-up E170.
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:46 am

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 33):
don't see all that much difference between a 767-200 with raked winglets added and painted in the new livery and the 787. I think that side by side, they would be very hard to tell apart. I think that is quite disappointing.

My thoughts too. I thought the Caravelle type nose was one of the 787's major differences from the 767/777 look.

Oh well, let's see what else get shelved as this aircraft develops.

When's rollout ?
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting DeskPilot (Reply 38):
Oh well, let's see what else get shelved as this aircraft develops.

As far as design, nothing will get shelved. This is the final exterior design according to Boeing, though I suppose they would change something if absolutely necessary.
 
miamix707
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:56 pm

The era of pretty airplanes is long gone, so sad.. who would have thought the old American B707 would still be the sleekest looking conventional jet. I saw one the other day.. unbelievable that a 1950s design is more interesting and aerodynamic looking than these boring modern jets that look all the same.

So after all it's gonna be another boring twinjet.. really that disgusting looking sea cow aka A380 is gonna be much more interesting to see.

I could care less for that detail on the cowling.. now the nose looks like a Tu 204 or something.. the tail looks like a 777.. and it's not really any more sleek than a similar 767 or A332.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:20 pm

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 33):
But yet another twinjet tube doesn't really live up to the marketing hype that came before it.

What hype? Boeing's marketing hype was the 7E7. E for economic. Fly economically. From the looks of things, that's what Boeing produced. An airliner that will be economical; compared to what's flying today. They didn't really hype anything else. Don't see what you're saying...other then you think it's just an fat 767. At least Boeing didn't market it as one...unlike Airbus, and its "improved A330." That is a marketing hype backfire.

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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:22 pm

The April 26 edition of the 787 is an improvement! I never cared for the shark tail. This modified tail is a nice combination of the traditional jet tail which in my opinion is timeless and the newer more radical shark tail. As long as Boeing never goes back to that God Awful FUGLY flattened bottom part of the engine nacelles of the now dated looking Boeing 737-300, 400 and 500 series. The 737 NG's design shows that Boeing designers could make lemon aide out of lemon (nacelle design). Back to the 787. Will the larger caplet/pill windows see production and, will there be individual air vents (gaspers)? I have to hand it to Boeing for keeping us all in suspense with these media teases.

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Tony Marlow

Don't hold it against me because I'm FUGLY!

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A little nip and tuck goes a long way! http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00004927
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jwenting
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:22 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):
Don't you mean the 767??? You can give up any time.

He can't, he thinks he's the high priest of Airbus adoration.

Quoting TomTurner (Reply 34):
The whole general look of the aircraft...almost seems as if Airbus helped design it as well...

hmm, always seemed to me Boeing helped design Airbusses. After all Airbusses are metal tubes with wings that have engines slung under them, a design Boeing introduced about 40 years ago on their aircraft...
I wish I were flying
 
sunilgupta
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:22 pm

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 5):
as soon as the engineers at boeing tell their bosses that they can save $10 if they don't put the serated edges on the cowlings, they will be gone!!!

You obvisouly don't know how it works... Engineers put stuff there and the bean-counters take it away...

Sunil
 
mav75
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:29 pm

Quoting Moose1226 (Reply 11):
The nose looks like the A380. Definitely not a good thing. The 767/777 noses are much more attractive.

FINALLY, someone said it! I thought I was alone on this. Oh well...guess we'll have to get used to it.
 
DIA
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:45 pm

Someone said the nose loks more like an E-170/190. . .I agree:
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Joan Martorell



And here is a photo of the serrations on the E-170/190 series that was discussed earlier on this post:
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Photo © Christopher Hammarborg




The more I see the larger prints of the 787, the more attractive it becomes. . .just like many other a/c. . .I think it'll grow on us, but the larger pics definately are more pleasing to the eye. . .it's not so bad afterall.

[Edited 2005-04-27 16:47:38]
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Areopagus
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 43):
After all Airbusses are metal tubes with wings that have engines slung under them, a design Boeing introduced about 40 years ago on their aircraft..

Make it 58 years ago. That description fits the B-47, which flew in 1947.
 
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keesje
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:58 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 43):
hmm, always seemed to me Boeing helped design Airbusses. After all Airbusses are metal tubes with wings that have engines slung under them, a design Boeing introduced about 40 years ago on their aircraft...

Thats right Jwenting!

 Smile


BTW the Arado Ar-234 flew 62 yrs ago. 4 were quickly shipped to the US in 45. One is now in the Smithsonian. http://www.vectorsite.net/avar2347.jpg

Another Arado interesting design:
http://www.luft46.com/arado/are560-2.gif
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
columba
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RE: Boeing: 787 Distinctive External Look - NOT Gone.

Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
Passengers will recognize the 787 because of its distinctive nose, wings, tail and engine cowl. Inside, passengers will find bigger windows, innovative lighting, more personal space, bigger overhead bins, a lower cabin altitude during flight and improved humidity.

I doubt that, Passengers -except a.netters and other aviation geeks- won´t recognize the 787 as a special plane.
I think it is still looking good, but it looks like an airliner should look like, it has no real distinctive look that makes it special from its competioner.
So no ordinary passenger will be able to say while he is boarding :"Look we are gonna to fly with a Dreamliner."
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong

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