georgiabill
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Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:11 am

Just was checking the current Boeing news releases and no mention of any deal with Air India. What is the status? Just planes lists the sales in their yr to date sales column. If it is a completed deal, how many 777-300ers,777-200LR and how many 787's? What will the 787's be 8's or 9's and or mix. Does Boeing still have 2010 delivery spots?
 
NYC777
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:20 am

The deal is not completed. AI's board gave approval to purchase the airplanes but since it's a gov't owned airline, the Indian government must sign off on AI's purchase before any firm contract is signed between Boeig and AI. This is a long and heavily beaurcratic process which is not the envy of the civilized world! It is frought with corruption but all that said the GOI has said that there is an urgent need to update the fleets of AI and IC so they are fast tracking this process. Word is thatthe government will give it's approval by August after that AI and Boeing can discuss schedule and well as 787 fleet mix.

The fleet mix is as follows: 27 787, 20 firm, 7 option
5 777-200LR firm, 3 option
10 777-300ER firm, 5 option.

Hope this helps.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:39 pm

RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):

is spite of all the hindrance, don't expect any turnaround in order or delivery schedule. The deal has not been written in sand, but carved in stone.
It's just a matter of time and you'll see it inked.
rgds
Aseem
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
VictorTango
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 2):
It's just a matter of time and you'll see it inked.

Yeah Boeing would get the nod, considering that the Govt has apparently realised the urgency to upgrade and expand the AI fleet. But how long that would take, remains to be seen.

Olly
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting VictorTango (Reply 3):
But how long that would take, remains to be seen.

considering the political dimension and example of urgency shown by Airbus with regards to IC, I don't think GOI will let that happen. Moreover we are not aware of back room maneuvers which normally are far ahead of press-releases.
So, we can now comfortably go about discussing things to come.
rgds
Aseem
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
NYC777
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:52 am

I hope you guys are right. What's going to most interesting is how Deccan, Sahara, and Jet respond to this deal. I'll bet all the tea in China (and India) that they're going back to Boeing and Airbus to get updated proposals, especially Jet...even though they have three A340 on lease, I understand that they're short term leases and that they're looking at out right purchases of for their long haul fleet.

Anyone have any info on what airplanes they might want to bu. My guess is that they'll certainly look at 777/787 and the A340/A350.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
aseem
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:58 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 5):
Anyone have any info on what airplanes they might want to bu. My guess is that they'll certainly look at 777/787 and the A340/A350.

have been following it regularly and no clue about their purchase plans. A lot is known about domestic needs and orders, but nothing so far about international fleet.
rgds
Aseem
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
jaysit
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:06 am

Even if the GOI drag their feet for the next 100 years and refuse to make up their tiny little greedy evil minds, its a moot point.

With open skies agreements between India and foreign markets, and with the rise of private Indian carriers plying international routes, Air India becomes largely irrelevant.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:11 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 5):
Anyone have any info on what airplanes they might want to bu.

Mostly the B777.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
B742
Posts: 3566
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:32 am

How will these A/C fit into the AI fleet?

Im guessing the 787's will replace the A310's, but will the 773ER's fly alongside the 744's or simply just replace them?

Could we see any AI 772ER orders?

Rob!
 
NYC777
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 9):
Could we see any AI 772ER orders?

They're already operating 3 772ERs on lease but I think they would do better with the 772LRs (allows them to flysame amount of passenger but also more cargo nonstop). I don't think they would order the 772ER.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
N60659
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
This is a long and heavily beaurcratic process which is not the envy of the civilized world! It is frought with corruption but all that said the GOI has said that there is an urgent need to update the fleets of AI and IC so they are fast tracking this process.

I think the Indo-US open skies agreement has finally lit the fire under the GOI. As others have stated, I see this order go through rather quickly. Now the delay in signing the 43 frame Aibus order for IA is rather puzzling.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 5):
What's going to most interesting is how Deccan, Sahara, and Jet respond to this deal.

Absolutely true. Both Sahara and Jet are predominantly Boeing operators. With the AC deal, it would seem like Boeing could sign firm contracts with 9W and S2 for future widebody purchases (772ER, 772LR, 773ER, 788, 789) and would be able to offload a substantial proportion of the AC A343/A345 fleet to backfill the fleet until the new frames are available. Timing is everything here.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
They're already operating 3 772ERs on lease but I think they would do better with the 772LRs (allows them to flysame amount of passenger but also more cargo nonstop). I don't think they would order the 772ER.

At this point, AI seems to have this public transportation philosophy of plopping a 747 in various points within the country before flying the international route. If that mentality persists in scheduling, it really doesn't matter if they use a 772LR or 772ER. My sincere hope is that they change there mode of operation with the new acquisitions.

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:16 am

indian aviation has an history where first mover got "exceptional" advantage. That could be seen why in early 90s every new entrant went for B737, and now every domestic carrier is flocking for A320.
That raised the stake for A & B in AI deal, as the private carriers are expected to be greatly influenced by what AI buys. An opportunity to poach on their trained pilot and AMEs
rgds
Aseem
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
Skyguy
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:55 am

The deal will be complete when the bribes have been transferred to the illicit bank accounts of all the politicians and bureaucrats involved. Until that happens, nothing is done in India.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
mrniji
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:56 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 2):
is spite of all the hindrance, don't expect any turnaround in order or delivery schedule.

Aseem, you are not correct here, also referring to your post in the other thread.. condition that the 787 was considered was a guarantee by Boeing to deliver them from 2008 onwards (part of the pffer, as delivery date was tendered). Moreover, have a look at IC.. though the a/c order isn't placed yet, Airbus has 'blocked' some of the next produced a/c for them...

I have no idea who will be the launch customer for the 787 (ANA?? - decided yet?). But Boeing would make a PR coup and a 'sustainable decision' to take AI, as the Indian market is the future.. and how can one better show presence as with such a PR gag?
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:39 pm

RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 14):

I may be wrong as far as delivary schedule is concerned, the sooner they arrive the better it is. Big grin
Moreover I don't expect any 180 degree turnaround in favour of Airbus. Hope everybody else agrees.
rgds
Aseem
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
VictorTango
Posts: 468
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:40 pm

Quoting Aseem (Reply 15):
Moreover I don't expect any 180 degree turnaround in favour of Airbus.

Has this kind of thing happened before. I mean, has the airline board cleared the order but the Govt scrapped it.

Frankly to me this deal seems sealed in Boeing favour. I'm a big fan of Airbus (nothing against Boeing), and would have loved to see the order go to them.

Olly
 
mrniji
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:52 pm

Quoting VictorTango (Reply 16):
Has this kind of thing happened before. I mean, has the airline board cleared the order but the Govt scrapped it.

Yes.. the A340 / 738 thingy.. this brings me to a question: is AI (NOT AIX) ordering any shorthauls like the latter (i.e. is the 738 deal scrapped)?

Other cases include A310 instead of 767, IC320 instead of 757.. if you want I can post yopu a nice article (scientific from EPW, not those trash journalists things, who claim that AI has decided for the 732LR Big grin )

Quoting VictorTango (Reply 16):
I'm a big fan of Airbus (nothing against Boeing), and would have loved to see the order go to them.

Me too.. but we should be happy that things have happened - I am very content with the decison, as you I prefer A but like B, too (they should buy that amazing bird called A380!).. anyways, after the order is finally placed (otherwise DELAYS again), I hope that the vigilance dept inquires.. Roy's post about the IC thing made me think a lot
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
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keesje
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:00 pm

Quoting Georgiabill (Thread starter):
What is the status?

No deal yet, I believe there are still some issues with the F16's and stuff.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
scotron11
Posts: 1192
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:19 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 17):

IC320 instead of 757

What was the outcome of the investigation into allegations of "kickbacks" on the above contract? As of 2003 and 13 years, no answer was forthcoming to the Economist when they asked.

rgds
 
mrniji
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:26 pm

Keesje, the link you provided is amazing:

AIR INDIA`S decision to opt for a Rs 300-bn deal for 50 aircraft with Boeing has erupted in a controversy, with Airbus Industrie, which lost the deal, demanding that the matter be dealt with by the Central Vigilance Commission (CVC) and the national carrier accusing the European aircraft manufacturer of carrying out a "misinformation campaign".

If AI decides to buy Boeing, for whatsoever criteria, may it be corruption or so, Airbus has to accept that. If AI was private, they did not even have to ask for a RFT, they could have approached Boeing immediately if the wanted to. If they make statements like these, Airbus chances to sell other a/c to AI sink tremendously.

Moreover, the 350 is starting a bit late... so no wonder there was no tender notice asking for quotations for the latter modell
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
scotron11
Posts: 1192
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:30 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 20):

Moreover, the 350 is starting a bit late... so no wonder there was no tender notice asking for quotations for the latter modell


It didn't stop IC from ordering the A320 in the 80's, did it?
 
VictorTango
Posts: 468
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:49 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 17):
they should buy that amazing bird called A380!

Would AI go in for the A380? What do you'll think?

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 17):
Other cases include A310 instead of 767, IC320 instead of 757.. if you want I can post yopu a nice articl

Subin please mail that to me if you can.

Olly
 
karan69
Posts: 2703
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:57 pm

RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting VictorTango (Reply 22):
Would AI go in for the A380? What do you'll think?

yup, i think there is enough demand to fill up their bom-lhr-jfk services.

Quoting VictorTango (Reply 22):
Quoting Mrniji (Reply 17):
Other cases include A310 instead of 767, IC320 instead of 757.. if you want I can post yopu a nice articl

Subin please mail that to me if you can.

Me too, please mail them
 
shawnnyc
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:48 am

RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 23):
yup, i think there is enough demand to fill up their bom-lhr-jfk services.

Other than that route, I think AI is better off concentrating on more non-stops between various points in India and various points in the US (with smaller aircraft). It does not have a good enough hub to do that many A380. Plus the non-stops are something that would give it an edge and premium traffic back. I'll tell you this head to head A380s operated by AI and BA on BOM-LHR-JFK, BA wins. If AI has a nonstop, the business traffic will flock to it (average American businessman will pick the nonstop any day). AI needs to shake up the INdia-US model to win back traffic.
 
mrniji
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:20 pm

Whawn, a posssible induction of a A380 would not necessarily go against the strategy of having smaller ULR a/c side-by-side.. it would rather eb a complement

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 24):
I'll tell you this head to head A380s operated by AI and BA on BOM-LHR-JFK, BA wins.

I do not agree, as pax will look who will offer the cheaper price.. enuff demand

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 24):
It does not have a good enough hub to do that many A380

enough point-to-point demand, as many peolpe travel BOM/DEL to catch the overseas
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 29943
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RE: Is The Air India Deal With Boeing Completed?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:50 pm

Quoting VictorTango (Reply 22):
Would AI go in for the A380? What do you'll think?

Very Unlikely.....Unless the Airports gets set up.......That would be a long time wait.
Yesterday Drove Around the Tarmec.Also watched 9W Engineering Pushback AIe VT-AXB [With out Eyebrow windows].Whereas the Other Two were parked at Old Airport side.From close the Colour scheme looks great,especially from behind the Red stripes.
Imagine watching 18 of them in the comming months  Smile
What news on the Scrapping of the B742 at Old Airport.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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