JOYA380B747
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Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:59 pm

Hello to Everyone...
Yes..that's what I want to know- Can Boeing grab fresh deals with Indian Airlines-IA and Jet Airways-9W alongside AI.
There has been rumours that IA, which has yet not finalised fresh deals with Airbus, might consider Boeing also. The Reason??....We have Praful Patel, The Indian Civil Aviation Minister, and his team who never guarantee on anything, and are quite anti-Airbus in character. Surely, here we have another UNPREDICTABLE deal from the Indian Govt.
But to be specific, if IA turns down the 43 Airbus deal(If ever), Airbus will be hailed as a potential loser to Boeing.
And then we have Jet airways. I don't have any Idea about 9W's orders. Surely they are leasing A340's but what about in the near Future. Boeing or Airbus????
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
mrniji
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:08 pm

Quoting JoyA380B747 (Thread starter):
There has been rumours that IA, which has yet not finalised fresh deals with Airbus, might consider Boeing also.

i doubt this to happen, as this might have an inquiry by the vigilance dept as consequence.. that would be too obvious
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
AvioGuy
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:38 pm

See it this way.... USA is happy with AI deal and as it should go Airbus should be decently happy with scoring the IA deal of 43 aircraft.

As for 9W...its a faithfull Boeing customer and will in no chance change to Airbus specially right now when they have just decided to lease 5 more B738s.
the scale of my sanity is not linear..
 
mrniji
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:41 pm

Quoting AvioGuy (Reply 2):
As for 9W...its a faithfull Boeing customer and will in no chance change to Airbus specially right now when they have just decided to lease 5 more B738s.

What about the 340s they leased from SAA?? I would be surprised if they switch to the 777 aftyer training their crew on the former
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
AvioGuy
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:48 pm

oh they will switch to the 777 alright, the government has a clause in the agreement to allow private careers that they HAVE to start operations immideately and the routes offerd to them must be operational as soon as possible. There were no 777s apparently available immediately (are there still any UA 777s free?) so 9W was forced to go the 340 way.

S2 on the other hand is planning to start LHR operations with an A310!  Wow!
the scale of my sanity is not linear..
 
ourboeing
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:52 pm

Whats up with 9W A340s? Where are they? I just want to see a 9W heavy Smile

OURBOEING
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:39 pm

I can predict 9W 340 interiors will be as good as any top airline of the world and we may find 9W flights pretty full all the way to EWR or JFK.
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:49 pm

I seriously doubt anymore big orders from India for Boeing. Airbus will do all it can to secure any order there to save face now, especially any A-350 order it can lay it's hands on.

Geopolitically speaking, India would do well to have a carrier throw an order to Airbus so that it does not alienate itself from it's European allies.
One Nation Under God
 
AvioGuy
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:33 pm

India might giving its "european allies" a good military order...already 80 BAe Hawks and a possibility of 120 M2k5's if USA doesent win the F 16 order too. And in todays world geopoliticaly it doesent matter.
the scale of my sanity is not linear..
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:55 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 7):
Geopolitically speaking, India would do well to have a carrier throw an order to Airbus so that it does not alienate itself from it's European allies.

It already has..the IA order for 43 A320s

Quoting AvioGuy (Reply 8):
India might giving its "european allies" a good military order...already 80 BAe Hawks and a possibility of 120 M2k5's if USA doesent win the F 16 order too. And in todays world geopoliticaly it doesent matter.

Over many years India has bought military equipment from primarily Rusiia and france. They now have an opportunity to buy US fighter (F-16s or F/A-18E/Fs). India has been giving it's European allies business for a great number of years.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
AvioGuy
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:59 pm

IA has not ordered 43 A320s..they only intend to.

And yes India has given France a decent amount of military hardware including the Mirage 2000s and Submarines for the navy.
the scale of my sanity is not linear..
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:08 pm

Quoting AvioGuy (Reply 10):
IA has not ordered 43 A320s..they only intend to.

IIRC they're just one mininster approval away from being able to sign the final contract.

I can totally see 9W orderingthe 777/787 combo for the various international destinations they hoped to open up. It's a no brainer and I would think that they may even announce an order this year in order to get theearliest delivery spots available. Heck they could even trump AI's Boeing order by signing a firm contract before AI thus guaranteeing an earlier delivery spots vis a vis AI (who still have to get govt approval for the order something which 9W doesn't have to worry about). The sooner 9W gets their new widebodies for international routes the more time they have to establish a proven international service identity with Indian travelers.

[Edited 2005-04-28 16:44:07]
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
mrniji
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting AvioGuy (Reply 10):
IA has not ordered 43 A320s..they only intend to.

No, most of them are A321s.. rest A320 (I think 4) and A319
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
AvioGuy
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:42 pm

ah yes well i meant from the A320 family. Big grin
the scale of my sanity is not linear..
 
aseem
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA &

Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 11):
Heck they could even trump AI's Boeing order by signing a firm contract before AI thus guaranteeing an earlier delivery spots vis a vis AI (who still have to get govt approval for the order something which 9W doesn't have to worry about).

I heard in one of these threads that there is some early delivery clause in AI deal, that will allow it to have B787 as early as 2006/8. Just what I've heard/read.
VT-ASJ
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AvioGuy
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:53 pm

AI wants the 777 by end of 2006, and no chance of 787 before 2008 anyway.
the scale of my sanity is not linear..
 
mrniji
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 14):
that will allow it to have B787 as early as 2006/8

I thought the 787 will only come into operation in 2008.. that was A's main argument
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 14):
I heard in one of these threads that there is some early delivery clause in AI deal, that will allow it to have B787 as early as 2006/8.

Unless AI has put a deposit for 2008 delivery spots it will be very hard to get the 787 that early as Boeing has said that 08 and 09 spots are all sold out. But the point still goes back that the GOi must give it's approval in a timely manner if AI wants these planes in 06 (777) and 08 (787). If not it can open the door for 9W to establish an international network with outstanding service (I just love 9Ws service..the best I've ever experienced even on a short flight like BOM to Bhavnagar) with modern aircraft before AI does.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
aseem
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:03 am

sorry for the confusion..just too many thread in a short span of couple of days. Simply hard to remember. Big grin
VT-ASJ
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:03 pm

Should not happen.Else what about the existing A320s in thier [IC] fleet.
9W will def go in for B777s as & When Available.
The A340s are a stop gap lease.
I hope the IC deal goes to Airbus.It makes more sense.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:15 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 16):
I thought the 787 will only come into operation in 2008.. that was A's main argument

And they responded with an airplane that's due out two years later...go figure.
 
N60659
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA &

Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:18 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 9):
Over many years India has bought military equipment from primarily Rusiia and france. They now have an opportunity to buy US fighter (F-16s or F/A-18E/Fs). India has been giving it's European allies business for a great number of years.

The issue with military aircraft acquisition in India has always been the question of license production in India. If Lockheed/Boeing offer the possibility of that, they will remain in the running. If not, I wouldn't hold my breath on getting F-16s or F/A-18E/F. One of the primary reasons why there are only a few squadrons of Mirage 2000s.
The other big issue with purchasing from the US is the risk of embargoes.
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:23 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 17):
If not it can open the door for 9W to establish an international network with outstanding service (I just love 9Ws service..the best I've ever experienced even on a short flight like BOM to Bhavnagar) with modern aircraft before AI does.

Got that right NYC...
9W infact might not only be a serious competitor to AI but expect it to also compete with other major TransAtlantic Airlines. Infight meals,entertainment will surely be world class. The Quesion is, on which Aircraft... 340 or 777 or maybe leased 747's also???
 hyper 
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Quoting JoyA380B747 (Reply 22):
or maybe leased 747's also???

That was doing the Rounds a few months ago  Smile
When will the B777s be available by Boeing for sale at the earliest.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:43 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
What about the 340s they leased from SAA?? I would be surprised if they switch to the 777 aftyer training their crew on the former

I wouldn't be so sure. 9W has been looking to make their own purchase NOW! The SAA lease is only for 2 years, in other words, it is a complete stop-gap measure intended to get their foot in the international door, nothing else. Every indication I have heard on this is that the 777 is the preferred option. However, since no order has been announced, it could of course go either way.

Regards,

Hamlet69
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:39 pm

I think Air India has got the Boeing deal now as part of a bigger US-India geo ploitical deal that is much bigger.

India now has do to do something to "level the playing fiels" in relation with Europe. Airbus complaints to the current Air India contarct have to be seen is this light.

Expect some other big deals soon. (nuclear power plants, aircraft carriers, open skies agreements, Rafales/Eurofighters, high speed railway infrastructure, high tech plants, A380's, anything is possible..).
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:50 pm

Quoting JoyA380B747 (Thread starter):
There has been rumours that IA, which has yet not finalised fresh deals with Airbus, might consider Boeing also

IC will do well to stick with Airbus. It is going to be very cost effective for them to induct more A320/A321/A319 than to go for a new Boeing type. If they need bigger planes for their forthcoming longhaul international routes, they can go in for the A330-200/300.
Or even the A380  Wink

As for AI, they've been a fairly loyal Boeing customer (except for the A300/A310). It will make sense for them to stick with Boeing
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mrniji
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:52 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 25):
India now has do to do something to "level the playing fiels" in relation with Europe.

IC is ordering Airbus. But they don't have to do anything in that regard. Who tells that they have to level the field? Who asks Pakistan to level the field after the PIA order? Who asks China? Who asked Britain (BA)? It might sound akward to you, but India is not that dependent on the EU - many things are happening, a lot of know-how exists, only these government structures and other determinants (overpopulation, problems in resource availability/access, environmental degradation) hamoper the growth.. and improvements are rather structural and transitional - things can't happen from today and tomorrow. In economic terms, India is adviced to stick with the US, Asia and emerging countries like China, Brazil, South Africa.. EU remains a huge partner, but the future lies not in Europe, so sad the reality is. the European lobby has become very strong here. A month ago I saw a presentation from the French embassy, basically 'begging' that India does not dump the EU as partner in the future - the EU is very interested in cooperation with India in many fields, as the latter share in World economy is rising tremendously

No offense from my side  Wink , but I just don't see any requirement of India to please both sides, as the West in increasingly becoming dependent on India, too. though I agree that Indian should go for the A380! Big grin
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
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sammyk
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:27 pm

I don't know why Airbus is crying. If the IA deal goes through and you include King Fisher and Air Deccan plus all their options, they'll have deals to sell almost 150 A32x models in India. The value of that is surely more than the Air India deal.
 
karan69
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:30 pm

What MrNiji says above makes perfect sense,

What is surprising is that Tony Blair wil push EU nations and others to buy Airbus products, whereas 85% of BAs fleet consist of Boeing aircraft.

So, why must India please both sides, a carrier must choose what it finds beneits its own needs.
 
jwenting
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:40 pm

Keesje will never give up trying to blame every Boeing win over his gods on government backstabbing (while of course every divine Airbus sales is based purely on the divine perfection of the product).
I wish I were flying
 
Cruiser
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:28 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 20):

And they responded with an airplane that's due out two years later...go figure.

Or, similarly, they wanted AI to look at the A380 because we all know that it is in the same size class! (Note the sarcasm!)

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 23):
When will the B777s be available by Boeing for sale at the earliest.

AC locked into the last 3 slots that were available in 2006, so my guess would be 2007. Not that far off!

Quoting Sammyk (Reply 28):
The value of that is surely more than the Air India deal.

The list price for the A321 is approximately $60Million, yet the list for the 777 can be as high as $241Million. Now for the sake of argument, say the average price of the AI planes is $150Million, and the IA around $50Million (which is generous). So, IA should get 3 planes for the price of 1 AI plane. So, I think that the two would be roughly worth the same amount.

I realise that I have used the list prices, but it was just to give you an idea as both companies would likely discount at approximately the same percent.

I may have been a little conservative on the average price AI should pay, simply because the 777 prices have a very wide range.

What it comes down to is this: Airbus wanted them both. Boeing also wanted them both! They both can't have it their way.


Cruiser
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DAYflyer
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:31 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 30):
Keesje will never give up trying to blame every Boeing win over his gods on government backstabbing (while of course every divine Airbus sales is based purely on the divine perfection of the product).

Welcome to my respested users list!
One Nation Under God
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:42 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 32):
Quoting Jwenting (Reply 30):
Keesje will never give up trying to blame every Boeing win over his gods on government backstabbing (while of course every divine Airbus sales is based purely on the divine perfection of the product).

Welcome to my respested users list! kiss 

pathetic! pls save this for the non-av forum..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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sammyk
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RE: Boeing Gets AI...Can It Do The Same With IA & 9W?

Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 31):
The list price for the A321 is approximately $60Million, yet the list for the 777 can be as high as $241Million. Now for the sake of argument, say the average price of the AI planes is $150Million, and the IA around $50Million (which is generous). So, IA should get 3 planes for the price of 1 AI plane. So, I think that the two would be roughly worth the same amount.

I realise that I have used the list prices, but it was just to give you an idea as both companies would likely discount at approximately the same percent.

I may have been a little conservative on the average price AI should pay, simply because the 777 prices have a very wide range.

What it comes down to is this: Airbus wanted them both. Boeing also wanted them both! They both can't have it their way.


Cruiser

Not really sure what point you were trying to make by breaking those prices down. In my post I was including all A32x orders/options/proposals that Airbus has in India to suggest that Airbus wasn't being shut out of the Indian market and shouldn't be crying over the lost AI order. Also based on list prices if all those orders/options/proposals are exercised then the value of those orders/options/proposals would be higher than the AI/AIx orders.