rjpieces
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Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:49 pm

About a year ago there were lots of rumors about BA ordering a large fleet of 773ERs to replace their aging 744s. Has there been any more talk of this, along with 787s, or is BA pushing this aside for a few years.

Also, has anybody heard anything about BA in regards to the 747 Advanced? They seem like a natural fit for the bird.
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rtfm
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:25 am

BA are interested in all 3; I think that the big question is whether Boeing offer the 747Adv or not. If yes then expect a mix of 747Adv and 773ER to start replacing some of the earlier 744s as well as add some capacity on some routes. If not then the A380 starts to come in to play as it is logically the only way to increase capacity on the same number of flights on a given route. I think that there is still an issue with the A380 being a bit too big for what BA want, hence the preference for 747Adv.

I am pretty sure that that the 787 will be ordered as a replacement for 763 and some of the 772s.

As for when, well BA are still working on reducing the debt which is crucial in being able to finance any new orders. Be interesting to see if anything is mentioned when the full year results come out (next week??). Otherwise I would guess within the next 12-18 months.
 
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Richard28
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:52 am

The 767's are currently having millions being spent on them, with the interiors being replaced in all classes. I very much doubt a 787 or similar order in the short term, unless it is to supplement (rather than replace) this fleet.
 
DeltaWings
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:56 am

I definetly see in the future, BA ordering the 747A and 773 to replace their 744s, and the 787 to replace their 767s.


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GDB
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:29 am

Groundhog Day again? (BA might order this or that soon)

BA are NOT going shopping, no matter how many threads are on Air Net about them doing so, they won't be for years yet, when they do, a 767 replacement will be first, from 2010.
(So either 787 or A350)

Then attention turning to older 747-436's, I'd say that restricting engines on 747Adv to GE had undermined this as yet unlaunched aircraft for BA.
By then of course, air travel would have increased, so if BA are to order A380's, at this time, early next decade, will be the time to do so.

Rumors about BA buying a bunch of new 777's last year were clearly nonsense, as stated, BA are not going aircraft shopping (maybe mentioning this twice in one thread might make this often quoted fact maybe sink in? I'm not intending to be rude here, but just a feeling of multiple deja vu)

Don't expect BA to be the launch customer on any new type/derivative, the policy is that we will not be, (fingers too burned on 777/GE90).

Maybe some in BA's planning would like to go shopping, but debt reduction and a young fleet mitigate against this.
That is not to say things won't change, but I really cannot see any new types ordered until 767 replacement,
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
Then attention turning to older 747-436's, I'd say that restricting engines on 747Adv to GE had undermined this as yet unlaunched aircraft for BA.

If BA were so fiercely loyal to RR, then why did they order their first 777's with the GE-90? I think the idea of engine commonality is no longer such a "game changer" for too many airlines anymore. Look at SQ with PW on the 744's, RR on the 777's and A345's and now GE on the 773ER.

Notwithstanding you comment about time passing and the eventual need for an aircraft the size of the A380 (which I think they will end up ordering), I would submit that if BA needs an aircraft only slightly bigger than the 744, they would not order the 380 just to have a RR powerplant.
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Speedbird2155
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 5):
If BA were so fiercely loyal to RR, then why did they order their first 777's with the GE-90?

Interesting to note that you also ignored the rest of the post by GDB

Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
Don't expect BA to be the launch customer on any new type/derivative, the policy is that we will not be, (fingers too burned on 777/GE90).

As for why BA ordered the first T7s with GE-90s, well that's due to a deal made with BA and GDB pointed out, BA got 'burned'. Don't think it was a suggestion that BA will simply stick to RR. Read it more in line with BA being a launch customer after the experience with the T7/GE-90s. Maybe if there is a choice from the start and BA can compare them and also be given some guarantees, then the possibility of being a launch customer (if the 747Advanced is offered) might be considered.

I'd however have to echo GDB's main point that at this time this discussion is based more on fiction as BA's current policy is that we aren't looking at ordering for the long-haul fleet. This is a point that management has stated to us who have attended various internal sessions about the future.
 
Concorde001
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting RTFM (Reply 1):
As for when, well BA are still working on reducing the debt which is crucial in being able to finance any new orders. Be interesting to see if anything is mentioned when the full year results come out (next week??).

This information will be released on Thursday 5th May (Next Week), and it is expected that BA will report pre-tax profts of approx £560,000,000 (£560 MILLION), $900,000,000, making it the World's most profitable airline 2004-2005.

Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
Rumors about BA buying a bunch of new 777's last year were clearly nonsense

Absolutely correct. BA are focued on reducing their debt, cutting costs further and finalising its plans for moving into its new base at LHR, Terminal 5. Only after this has been done, will BA go 'shopping'.
 
United Airline
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:20 am

Hope BA replaces its entire B 747-400 fleet with B 747 Advanced on a one to one basis.

They love their B 747s and they were unwilling to offload any of them to CX and IB in the past.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:35 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 8):
Hope BA replaces its entire B 747-400 fleet with B 747 Advanced on a one to one basis.

Well it would be good to see a BA 747 without Roll-Royce RB-211's!  tongue 

Does anyone think that will affect their interest in the aircraft?
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:25 am

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 9):
Does anyone think that will affect their interest in the aircraft?

If anything is going to kill the 747-Adv at BA, it will be the appeal of either the 773ER or the A388. If they want a 450 seat airplane, I think engines will be trivial for them: they have not been averse to GE in the past, and despite early bumps, the GE90 777s have settled down and are an intergal part of BA's fleet.

Quoting GDB (Reply 4):

Rumors about BA buying a bunch of new 777's last year were clearly nonsense, as stated, BA are not going aircraft shopping (maybe mentioning this twice in one thread might make this often quoted fact maybe sink in?

It was anything but nonsense: there were serious talks of 744 going to CX, BA ordering new 777s, with Boeing brokering the deal. It fell through, but it was very real.

Isn't my fault that you weren't reading the headlines a year ago

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 2):
The 767's are currently having millions being spent on them, with the interiors being replaced in all classes. I very much doubt a 787 or similar order in the short term, unless it is to supplement (rather than replace) this fleet.

Of course BA won't can the 767 immediatly, but show me a cabin refit that took 6 years to amortize. By 2012, the 763ER fleet would just be hitting 20 years old, I can't imagine BA's "investment" wouldn't have been recouped, and you likely be able to secure delivery slots at that time.

You also seem to rule out ordering 787 for growth as CO is doing: they have no plans to immediatly phase out 767 when the 788 arrive.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 10):
If anything is going to kill the 747-Adv at BA, it will be the appeal of either the 773ER or the A388. If they want a 450 seat airplane, I think engines will be trivial for them: they have not been averse to GE in the past, and despite early bumps, the GE90 777s have settled down and are an intergal part of BA's fleet.

LOL, I think any kind of engine is a worry at BA at the moment!

I didn't realise the 772ER's were GE90's? Are they all GE powered or are there some RR engined aircraft?
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777

Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:44 am

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 11):
I didn't realise the 772ER's were GE90's? Are they all GE powered or are there some RR engined aircraft?

They have a split fleet. They ordered:

5 Ge90-85B 772A (not sure if they are still with the fleet)
24 Ge90-85B 772ER
16 Trent 895 772ER

I'm not sure of the exact Ge90 variant (were any -92B? ) but the bulk of BA's fleet are, in fact, GE powered. In 1998, BA wanted an uprated power plant for increased performance but GE wasn't immediatly prepared to offer such an engine. Among other factors (including EOS experience), the add-on order went to Rolls Royce.
 
United Airline
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:28 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 9):
Well it would be good to see a BA 747 without Roll-Royce RB-211's!

Does anyone think that will affect their interest in the aircraft?

I am sure they are very interested in the B 747 Advanced. Their B 747-400s run out full from time to time and they want more capacity. They didn't even offload one single B 747-400 after 9.11 or when CX and IB were interested.

Engines: Doesn't really matter I think if they really need an aircraft.

Other potential buyers: SQ, CX, SA)">UA, TG, MH, JL, AF, LH, NZ, SA)">NW, QF, CI, SA and KLM (Maybe) etc
 
scotron11
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:25 pm

As airlines go, I don't think BA's debt position is all that bad. Couple of years ago it was downright horrendous, but they have made great strides in bringing it way down. We shall probably see a further reduction when they release their full year results.

As we all know, buying aircraft is not like buying automobiles, so I don't think it is that farfetched for BA to be seriously thinking of future replacements for older aircraft that will be well old by 2010. Certainly more serious with the price of oil where it is.

I am no expert on the delivery schedule of ordered aircraft, but with the 787 not entering service until 2008, and with the order book growing almost weekly, I would think they would need to get their finger out and start scheduling deliveries of the 787, if that is the aircraft they decide on for replacement of their 767s by 2010.

Replacements for their 744s they would not think about until 2010, or earlier if they achieve the results they hope for when they move to T5 in 2008.

Can't wait!
 
United Airline
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:38 pm

Their B 747-400s are still very new and they need not be replaced until 2010-2015.

By then they can order the B 747Advanced
 
G-CIVP
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777

Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:51 pm

"It was anything but nonsense: there were serious talks of 744 going to CX, BA ordering new 777s, with Boeing brokering the deal. It fell through, but it was very real."

But this isn't buying a 'new type' as such. I think at the time this may have been for B777-200's and this 'deal' was two to three years ago.

Just to re-iterate GDB's point, BA isn't going shopping just yet. Everyone on the fourm harks on about BA's initial B747-400's getting old but the first one was delivered in the summer of 1989, so hardly old.
 
scotron11
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:33 pm

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 16):

Everyone on the fourm harks on about BA's initial B747-400's getting old but the first one was delivered in the summer of 1989, so hardly old.

Yes, but you still have to plan and have all your ducks in row. You can't hedge your fuel position forever. What if oil stays where it is? Pretty soon those aircraft get more and more expensive to operate.
 
GDB
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:02 pm

BA ordered GE on 777's in a shoddy deal that came back to bite us.
Selling an engine overhaul facility to GE. Since GE have been running it quality has gone way down, I remember this from the Olympus engine overhauls at first hand.
Last year, the place was shut down for a few weeks (by the CAA) , oil contamination, the effects of which are still being felt.
This is all before the teething problems with the GE90 itself.

BA don't have any 'brand loyalty' as such, airframe wise, in any case 747Adv is not launched yet.

No one at BA I know, knew of any plans to introduce more 777's last, so what if some media reported it, when you've been in the industry as long as I have, you take everything from the media with a large pinch of salt.
New aircraft, or a redirected order, has not and is not on the agenda, post away with your speculations and wish lists, won't make any difference.
Planespotters are also not known for being well informed much of the time.

BA are doing better, but we are far from secure, remember no Chapter 11 multiple 'last chances' no direct bail out like Alitalia, no extra security measures being paid for by government, are available to BA.
 
United Airline
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:47 pm

When will BA post its net profit for 2004?
 
Concorde001
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 19):
When will BA post its net profit for 2004?

This information will be released on Thursday 5th May (Next Week), and it is expected that BA will report pre-tax profts of approx £560,000,000 (£560 MILLION), US$900,000,000, (US$900 MILLION) making it the World's most profitable airline 2004-2005.

[Edited 2005-04-30 14:58:43]
 
Glom
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:06 pm

I wasn't aware the GE90 had problems. And it looks so gorgeous too. Is this a general thing or just something that BA found?
 
GDB
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RE: Whats The Latest With BA In Regards To 747/777/787

Sun May 01, 2005 12:41 am

Profits are only part of the story, BA are aiming for a 10% operating margin, get some of those a few financial years in a row, then we'll talk about what aircraft BA might go out and buy.

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