mrcomet
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Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 7:37 am

Not a very good marketing strategy for Airbus:

Air-India mulls legal action against Airbus
Sunday May 1 2005 00:19 IST
IANS

DUBAI: State-run international carrier Air-India (AI) on Saturday said it is considering legal action against Airbus Industrie for its statement against a $7 billion order by AI to buy 43 planes from its US rival, Boeing.

Air-India chairman and managing director V. Thulasidas, who is in Dubai for the inaugural services of Air-India Express, the budget airline started by Air India, criticised Airbus Industrie's demand for a probe into its decision to opt for Boeing planes, saying Airbus had no right to complain about the move.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 7:41 am




I think it's fair to say this order is now safely Boeing's

I can understand how a bridge may have been burned, but how can AI possibly press legal action for demanding a re-evaluation? Wouldn't AI simply say no?
 
mrcomet
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 7:50 am

Well, Airbus has implied there was corruption by saying they were denied equal treatment. That could be libelous if in fact the decision was made legitimately on cost issues. That could be grounds for a civil suit and could even be criminal in some countries. It all depends on exactly what was said and how it was said.
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atmx2000
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 7:51 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
I think it's fair to say this order is now safely Boeing's

I can understand how a bridge may have been burned, but how can AI possibly press legal action for demanding a re-evaluation? Wouldn't AI simply say no?

No order is safe until there is a contract, least of all in India. The history of AI 777/A340 competition is a testament to that fact.

Airbus (and the EU and particularly France) seems to be really bitter because they thought they had snatched the deal from Boeing the last time around with their wheeling and dealing.

Did AI get more slots at CDG as a result of that round?
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aseem
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 8:14 am

whichever way, all this haggling has spoilt the whole atmosphere. I don`t think Airbus can go anywhere with this. With so much bitterness in the air, I doubt AI can turn in favour if Airbus even if it wants to.
rgds
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TheBigOne
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 10:15 am

I would just love to see AI take Airbus to court for libel. The truth about the decision making process would then be apparent for all to see. I for one wouldn't be surprised if personal economics far outweigh the benefits the airline will enjoy from ordering Boeing! Let battle commence!

p.s. If the order had gone Airbus' way I would be saying the same thing.
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glideslope
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 10:20 am

Quoting TheBigOne (Reply 5):
p.s. If the order had gone Airbus' way I would be saying the same thing.

Sure you would.  Yeah sure
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lehpron
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 10:32 am

Quoting MrComet (Thread starter):
legal action against Airbus Industrie for its statement against a $7 billion order

Uh...so because Airbus said something was supposedly unfair and AI could not have just told Airbus to shove it?

Quoting MrComet (Thread starter):
saying Airbus had no right to complain about the
move.

 irked 

Unless Airbus was harassing AI, I do not see the point for this pending lawsuit.
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TheBigOne
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 10:36 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 6):
Sure you would.

Glidescope - I think you have misunderstood my post. I couldn't care less as to whether AI orders A or B, as I have enjoyed many years of flying on AIs 747s and A300s/310s. However I am aware that most orders associated with AI be that Aircraft / IFE / Engines / Finance or just about anything tend to bring an amount of 'personal benefits' to the committees / individuals involved in the ordering process. In fact for years, applicants trying to join AI as cabin crew were required to 'compensate' those responsible for hiring them. The reason I suggest it would be good if AI took legal action against Airbus, is so that the true economics of any order would become far more transparent to the tax payers of India!
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 10:39 am

Quoting TheBigOne (Reply 5):
Let battle commence!

How about: give it a rest and let AI buy the aircraft they have been trying to buy for 15 years.

Did you know this fleet aquistion began with the MD-11?

Quoting TheBigOne (Reply 5):
I would just love to see AI take Airbus to court for libel

This wouldn't fit any definition of libel I'm aware of...
 
aseem
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 10:42 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):

the news is that GE Capital's aircraft leasing Chair is heading to India to finalize lease for AI..so it is all done
enjoy
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TheBigOne
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 10:43 am

DfwRevolution

Please see the comments I posted in reply to Glidescope's comments. With regards to the MD11 order - I still secretly wish that deal had gone ahead! That would have been great  Smile
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co7772wuh
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 10:55 am

Please forgive me for not knowing this .  confused 

Wasn't there an Airbus order for aproximately 43 a/c still pending from years ago ??? Or was that for another Indian Airline ?

If so , does this mean that the 40+ a/c order to Airbus is dead ?

 tombstone 
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 11:01 am

Quoting Co7772wuh (Reply 12):
If so , does this mean that the 40+ a/c order to Airbus is dead ?

Those are for A32X and are not connected to this deal. I don't see why the 787/777 order would change anything.

If you want some irony... I think Boeing is appealing that order. Hold the lawyers, I don't think there is any threat of litigation yet.
 
mrniji
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 2:19 pm

Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
That could be libelous if in fact the decision was made legitimately on cost issues. That could be grounds for a civil suit and could even be criminal in some countries. It all depends on exactly what was said and how it was said.

I agree.. but I wonder: what is the legal basis, and which countries' law is relevant?? I like the India of AI suing Airbus for the shamefull comments, but I do not see any legal basis - The case could not be in India, as Airbus is not registred here (???) - it could probably be in Europe.. but which country (France, Germany, European Law)? Or in front of an arbitray court of the WTO??

If someone has some idea about this, please post it.. if I have some time, I will do some legal research.. interesting question!
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Jet-lagged
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 2:43 pm

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that if you cause someone harm, then you may be liable for damages. So, if AI could show that Airbus's comments and requests are unfounded and have caused harm (e.g. lost reputation to individuals, time and cost from managers and their airline required to deal with their whining) then the argument would be that Airbus should re-imburse.

I'm sure AI would not actually sue, they are just talking back big like when a little dog barks at you, you might raise a stick and shout. Airbus is being less than rational, less than gracious, even rude, and they are getting a response worthy of their actions. India is an independent country, and they have their own airlines not influenced by European governments. Why should Airbus feel they can push India and AI around?
 
mrcomet
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 4:43 pm

Libel/slander is different in each country but it usually must meet these criteria:

1) It must be a statement that is false
2) That statement must be published
3) The statement must cause proveable harm or damages

In some countries, politicians and government agencies can not sue for libel because it is considered fair comment.

I suspect Jet-lagged is right -- this is just big words to scare off Airbus. I doubt in any country Airbus' comments would be considered libelous although they do not seem very smart. Airbus is acting more like a branch of a government agency than a business. Boeing may be doing some behind the scenes complaining about past awards but they are not publicly embarrassing AI or any other airline.

I am sure Boeing is not above similar tactics and I feel for any company that has to deal with a non-transparent bidding process. This is something I am sure both companies are used to. However, Airbus is failing from a public relations standpoint and looks terrible.
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trident2e
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 5:06 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
I think it's fair to say this order is now safely Boeing's

Airbus' strategy is based on the fact that AI doesn't actually make the decision - the Indian government does. Put enough pressure on the government and AI will do as it is told.
 
mrniji
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 5:14 pm

Quoting Trident2e (Reply 17):
Put enough pressure on the government and AI will do as it is told.

That might be their strategy, but I doubt that the Indian Government can be forced by Europe to do sth they won't want..! "Better piss of Europe than the US" might be what they think

I doubt too that AI will sue Airbus.. but indeed, not the best PR move
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Leskova
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 5:52 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
Quoting Co7772wuh (Reply 12):
If so , does this mean that the 40+ a/c order to Airbus is dead ?

Those are for A32X and are not connected to this deal. I don't see why the 787/777 order would change anything.

They're actually also for another airline - they're for Indian Airlines, not Air India.


But in this case, somehow I am really starting to get the feeling that something is strange: first of all, I've never seen Airbus act this strange after losing a contest; being disappointed is one thing, actually issuing a statement that you were disappointed already something else (remember Boeing/Iberia); but publicly - essentially - accusing the airline of corruption? Looking back at the allegations made about some Airbus deals in the past, I'd say that if you're sitting in a glasshouse, you should undress in the dark...

But if things weren't strange enough with Airbus' behavior, now Air India actually publicly states that they're contemplating legal action against Airbus? I really don't see where both sides are trying to go with this, but - as always in situations like this one - I don't see either side coming out unscathed...

Strange times we live in...

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Frank
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acvitale
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 6:35 pm

I just want to know how long before we see an Indian aircraft manufacturer.

The real way to thumb the nose is to drop both and build your own.  Smile
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Sun May 01, 2005 10:37 pm

Quoting Aseem (Reply 4):
With so much bitterness in the air, I doubt AI can turn in favour if Airbus even if it wants to.

Oh yes, of course it can. Remember that this is something like $ 6 Bn deal and Airbus will do anything for the money, bitterness or not.
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 6):
Quoting TheBigOne (Reply 5):
p.s. If the order had gone Airbus' way I would be saying the same thing.

Sure you would.

Ditto... Sour grapes. Just doesn't make the management at Airbus look very good. If you're in management, of any company, taking the high road is always the best way of dealing with your customers.
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B742
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 1:18 am

Serves Airbus right!

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SimProgrammer
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 1:37 am

Some might see this as a 'seves airbus right' topic, but the risk is very much with AI. Airbus's indemnity is underwritten by EC so A has very little or nothing to lose either way it goes.

This will also be on the Eurpoean financial scale and if AI loses the costs are catastrophiclly higher than it would for an A win.

I wouldnt want to be AI's Public Indemnity insurer right now... it is quite likely that AI wont get any legal case against A off the ground due to the enormous financial risk involved, AI's PI insurer would never let this go ahead unless AI itself underwrites the risk.

Afforded with a newly commited aircraft order - it's simply wont happen.
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 1:58 am

If you buy a very high ticket item, you always get freebies, for example you but a Ferrari (or two heheh) and just before you put down the cash you make the poor salesman think that you may or may not buy the Car...ALONG come freebies...!!! A trip to Italy to Santa Agatha to Maranello, heck even tickets to Monaco Grand prix JUST TO CLOSE the sale.....

Now imagine you are trying to buy 6 billion order of planes.....I wonder the scale of the frebbies...

In my opinion this whole thing stinks, for once both manefacturers will do anything to get a BIG order, a lot of goverments are quite corrupt (As a Citizen of one of the top ten I really know), the deal involves a lot of stakes for airlines and manefacturers....

I think that this bitter battle is about this, someone who promised things that were not fulfiled and felt betrayed and this is the result.....now the barking on both sides of the fences might mean that both sides know something fishy was going on...

Anyway you look at it its SAD....
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commavia
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 2:03 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Airbus -- just let it go already!
 
KL808
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 2:22 am

Quoting Trident2e (Reply 17):
Airbus' strategy is based on the fact that AI doesn't actually make the decision - the Indian government does

And this I think is the MAIN REASON. Why wouldn't you be pissed when a government owned airline who of course does a fair big amount of trade with both the US and Europe only order from one Manufacturer. Also it says (AIRBUS) that it wasn't given a fair chance to equally present its aircraft to AI. Dont know how accurate that may be, but why would they lie about that. They didn't complain from other orders.

Look at China, I know there is a lot of difference from the two, however, I believe a split order would have been more... How could I say it... POLITICALLY CORRECT.

In the end I THINK, the government might rethink (THAT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE, DUE TO POLITICAL PRESSURES) the whole order and we would see another long period before any of those aircrafts would be in AI's fleet.

That's my 2 American dollar penny's worth

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MidnightMike
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 2:30 am

Right now both parties are speaking to each other through the media & press releases. There is going to be no lawsuit, this is just a way of telling Airbus that the Boeing deal is done and to leave them alone.
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aseem
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 27):
Look at China, I know there is a lot of difference from the two, however, I believe a split order would have been more... How could I say it... POLITICALLY CORRECT.

if you look from Govt of India's perspective, the order is split, with AI (Air India) going for 50 Boeings and IC (Indian Airlines) about to place order for 43 Airbuses.
rgds
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mrniji
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 3:17 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 20):
I just want to know how long before we see an Indian aircraft manufacturer.

HAL - Hindustan Aeronatics.. google them out. Sometimes, I think that the doctrine of swadeshi (Self-sufficiency) is not that bad.. this is one of the cases where I would subscrive to it.. an example how unethical business in the spirit of competition has become.. sad. we all would be winners if A and B start to cooperate and share knowledge rather than having an economic war

But I am sure that proposing this that people will come up saying: "I won't fly in an aircraft that is proposed by a developing nation as India is"...

[Edited 2005-05-01 20:24:27]
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 29):
if you look from Govt of India's perspective, the order is split, with AI (Air India) going for 50 Boeings and IC (Indian Airlines) about to place order for 43 Airbuses.
rgds
VT-ASJ

Good point... Sounds to me that some of our Airbus fans think in terms of a "I want the whole cake" mentality. Childish.
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Leskova
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 31):
Good point... Sounds to me that some of our Airbus fans think in terms of a "I want the whole cake" mentality.
Childish.

The mentality which, of course, the Boeing fans crying for a re-evaluation of Indian Airlines' Airbus order couldn't be sharing, right?  Yeah sure

In the end, I doubt things will change - at either airline - from where they are right now, and I don't think they should. Any change, and I do mean any change, would only be the result of political bargaining, not, as it should be, the result of the airline's evaluation of the planes in question.

Regards,
Frank
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 32):
The mentality which, of course, the Boeing fans crying for a re-evaluation of Indian Airlines' Airbus order couldn't be sharing, right?

I stand by what I said...

Quoting Leskova (Reply 32):
In the end, I doubt things will change - at either airline - from where they are right now, and I don't think they should. Any change, and I do mean any change, would only be the result of political bargaining, not, as it should be, the result of the airline's evaluation of the planes in question.

I agree wholeheartedly. And I believe both airlines did just that.
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RyanAFAMSP
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 8:17 am

I think Air India has every right to publicly condemn Airbus's actions.

The accusations made by Airbus have been deeply insulting as they have been couched in this colonial discourse. Airbus implies that decisions made in developing countries are inherently corrupt, and that European or American firms exist to teach developing countries how to properly do business. I'm sure there was intense political posturing inside Air India and the Indian government regarding this order, but how on earth could we think of this as unique? As if the way Continental or British Airways or Japan Airlines makes its fleet decisions is apolitical. As if there is no secret deal making involving slots at LGA or ORD or LHR. To claim that the international authorities have to descend on India to fix this politicized aircraft ordering process is ridiculous.

I don't mean to make this point to start an A vs. B argument. More importantly, I applaud Air India for not putting up with this type of behavior by western industrial firms. It needs to draw a line in the sand with both Airbus and Boeing - and assert its position as an emerging competitor in the global airline business. Air India has every right to make an independent, informed decision toward an aircraft purchase that will best meet the needs of its route system, just like American or Air France or Cathay Pacific would.
 
commavia
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 8:49 am

Quoting RyanAFAMSP (Reply 34):
As if there is no secret deal making involving slots at LGA or ORD or LHR.

I doubt that the US trades Boeing aircraft orders for slots at LGA and ORD.
 
aseem
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 10:02 am

Moreover, giving slots at CDG won't tilt multi-billion dollar order in favour of Airbus. At the most AF can demand similar rights to India. The bottomline is that AI ordered what suited it's needs the most. Almost everybody besides Airbus agrees on that.
rgds
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mrniji
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 1:08 pm

Quoting RyanAFAMSP (Reply 34):
The accusations made by Airbus have been deeply insulting as they have been couched in this colonial discourse. Airbus implies that decisions made in developing countries are inherently corrupt, and that European or American firms exist to teach developing countries how to properly do business



Quoting RyanAFAMSP (Reply 34):
More importantly, I applaud Air India for not putting up with this type of behavior by western industrial firms.

A bottle of champagne for you! Great said, I fully agree!
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HAWK21M
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Mon May 02, 2005 3:04 pm

Quoting Aseem (Reply 4):
With so much bitterness in the air, I doubt AI can turn in favour if Airbus even if it wants to

There goes our Desire of one day seeing Fresh Airbus Aircraft in AI Colours.  Smile
regds
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airish
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RE: Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus

Tue May 03, 2005 1:12 am

It looks like Airbus will have to take things further if they want to with the Indian government.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1091017.cms

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1095297.cms
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