Indy
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Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Tue May 03, 2005 7:27 pm

I was reading about the planned termination of 4 UA pensions and that the FA's have threatened to strike on May 10th if that happens. Do you think this will happen and would it mark the end of UA?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
aa777flyer
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Tue May 03, 2005 9:31 pm

I highly doubt you will see an all out strike. What will likely happen in a CHAOS strike. Ranom walkouts of certain flights with little or no notice. A complete shutdown of UAL? Unlikely.
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leelaw
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Tue May 03, 2005 9:40 pm

Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
would it mark the end of UA

We all know you want UA's ORD hub to die one way or another, perhaps the flight attendants will provide at least some of the means to that end.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Tue May 03, 2005 9:46 pm

Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
I was reading about the planned termination of 4 UA pensions and that the FA's have threatened to strike on May 10th if that happens. Do you think this will happen and would it mark the end of UA?

With the way UA (and US) have been acting during their bankruptcy (dumping their pension package on the US taxpayers, and the US baggage "stunt" over Christmas), does anyone really care?

If UA and US liquidated today, there would be a marked improvement in customer service in the US airline industry (even if nothing else changes).

Quoting Aa777flyer (Reply 1):
I highly doubt you will see an all out strike. What will likely happen in a CHAOS strike. Ranom walkouts of certain flights with little or no notice.

That will show the paying passengers who is really the boss around here.

"On behalf of our unions, I want to thank you for coming out today just to sit and waste time on our aircraft, at the gate, because we ain't going anywhere".
 
mcdu
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Tue May 03, 2005 9:53 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
If UA and US liquidated today, there would be a marked improvement in customer service in the US airline industry (even if nothing else changes).

How in the world could you make that remark? UAL was the only major US carrier to rank in the top 5 of the recent survey of the industry in terms of service. UAL has a very good product. While the F/A's and the mechanics speak vociferously in the media I would bet you $100 there is no strike. For one very good reason is that under the current BK law it would be illegal.

Perhaps a little research would do you some good on this subject versus the trashing of an airline that can provide you transportation to almost any corner of the globe.
 
jdaniel001
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Tue May 03, 2005 10:05 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 4):
How in the world could you make that remark? UAL was the only major US carrier to rank in the top 5 of the recent survey of the industry in terms of service. UAL has a very good product.

I can't believe to validated his comment by replying. I was going to ignore him. But..UA and US are doing the right things. They may not be popular, but it is the key to survivability. I personally thought that the US government got rid of pensions after BN went bankrupt in 1982. Customer service has drastically improved at all airlines over the past 5 years or so. Airlines are trying to tie in loyalty with profit and a smile. Go figure. Maybe there is such a thing as a million dollor smile.
We Are UNITED!
 
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casinterest
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Tue May 03, 2005 11:36 pm

For some people this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

All the employees of UA are reeling from some big choices made by management in regards to the future of the company. However management does not seem to be reciprocating amongs the ranks, and i do not see how UA will make it even with concessions from the employess with such rash and careless management. US airways hopefully will go first, but don't put it past the employees in the trenches to help swing down this airline.
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COSPN
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Tue May 03, 2005 11:37 pm

BETER TO EAT AT MCDONALDS THAN WORK THERE  Smile
 
mcdu
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Tue May 03, 2005 11:47 pm

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 6):
However management does not seem to be reciprocating amongs the ranks, and i do not see how UA will make it even with concessions from the employess with such rash and careless managemen

I am curious about this statement. What are you referring to in this regards? Where has the management been careless? They have been making difficult decisions that for the most part were not unexpected. If you work for UAL and felt the Defined Benefit plan was going to still be an option after BK you were asleep at the wheel.

In the case of the F/A's, rampers and mechanics the PBGC payout is almost no different than the UAL payout would have been. Where are the facts to this story when you need them.

As far as pay is concerned. Sure it sucks to take a cut but you are always free to vote with your feet. If a job does not pay my bills I look for another job.

There seems to be too many of the other carrier employees that want UAL to fail so they can claim a portion of the routes or fleet. Fine wish what you want but it might just be your carrier in the cross hairs in the near future if UAL is able to exit with a significant cost advantage.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Tue May 03, 2005 11:52 pm

I have seen it from another industry in the past 5 years, all this cutting, and the lack of doing the right thing from the onset of bankruptcy leads me to believe that United's management is not up to the task. Hard feelings cause a lot of pain, no matter how hard United's management is running to save the sinking ship. the fact of the matter is that management plowed the ship into an iceburg, and failed to realize that it was really sinking until much to late.
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NYCAAer
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Tue May 03, 2005 11:53 pm

I doubt either the F/As or the mechanics will strike. This is just positioning by the unions- all smoke and mirrors. I wish the folks at UAL my best, though.
 
C133
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 12:04 am

The PBGC was, I think, set up to rescue people whose companies went out of business. What is the logic or fairness of UAL deciding they no longer want to keep the promises made to their employees, so their pension obligations will be transferred to the nation's taxpayers! (For another thread is the competitive advantage this gives them; again, courtesy of the taxpayer.)

Let the flames begin.........
Fine: Tax for doing wrong. Tax: Fine for doing well.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 12:14 am

Maybe Indy Air WON'T be the first to go kaputt after all...
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uadc8contrail
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 12:16 am

KC135TOPBOOM,
Take alook at this...im sure ual and usair had a hand in this as well..http://www.detnews.com/2005/business/0505/01/B01-167245.htm
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
mcdu
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 12:36 am

Quoting C133 (Reply 11):
The PBGC was, I think, set up to rescue people whose companies went out of business. What is the logic or fairness of UAL deciding they no longer want to keep the promises made to their employees, so their pension obligations will be transferred to the nation's taxpayers! (For another thread is the competitive advantage this gives them; again, courtesy of the taxpayer.)

C133,

If UAL were to liquidate who would pick up the pensions? The PBGC, correct? So UAL staying in business or going out of business results in the same ending for the pensions.

Now you say taxpayers pay this. Please review how the PBGC raises funds. Issuance of bonds and other revenue streams pay the bill not taxpayers.

The following is directly from the PBGC website.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Money PBGC Takes In and Pays Out

PBGC is not funded by general tax revenues. PBGC collects insurance premiums from employers that sponsor insured pension plans, earns money from investments and receives funds from pension plans it takes over. PBGC pays monthly retirement benefits, up to a guaranteed maximum, to about 518,000 retirees in 3,479 pension plans that ended. Including those who have not yet retired and participants in multiemployer plans receiving financial assistance, PBGC is responsible for the current and future pensions of about 1,061,000 people.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 12:57 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 8):
In the case of the F/A's, rampers and mechanics the PBGC payout is almost no different than the UAL payout would have been. Where are the facts to this story when you need them.

I still don't understand why the US taxpayers have to pick up the costs of the UA pension program. Is it to help save the company? If it is, this amounts to nothing more than a fat government subsidy. If it is good enough for UA and US, why not let Ford, GM, AA, GE, DL, P&W and every other company on hard times do it too?

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 8):
There seems to be too many of the other carrier employees that want UAL to fail so they can claim a portion of the routes or fleet. Fine wish what you want but it might just be your carrier in the cross hairs in the near future if UAL is able to exit with a significant cost advantage.

I do not work for any airline. But the industry has way too much capacity now. Weeding out the weakest carriers will simply adjust the industry to a service level that can be supported by the surviving carriers. The current very high fuel prices may end up being a cloud with a silver lining for the industry if it speeds up the liquidation of US and UA and forces the desert parking of their airplanes. But, that will not garantee a profit for the surviving carriers, they will still have to earn that themselves.

If US and UA both emerge from their bankruptcy successfully, they will not have a "significant cost advantage" for very long. Neither one is a LCC, nor will they become one. So their financial advantage will not last long. Their labor unions will see to that. How long was US out of the first bankruptcy before they filed for protection again? Less than 1 year, IIRC. Additionally, that may force DL into bankruptcy protection, and possibly AA, too.

The US and UA cases are very different than the TZ bankruptcy. TZ managed to sell some of the gates (at MDW) and other assets to WN and have been reducing the size of their fleet by returning leased aircraft, thus they are reducing their excess capacity. UA and US, on the other hand continue to except deliveries of A-319, A-320, A-330 (US), and E-170 aircraft, while parking their classic B-737, B-767 (US) and B-777 (UA). This leads me to believe that UA/US are maintaining their capacity at approximately their pre-bankruptcy levels, or if they are reducing capacity, they are doing it a lot slower than TZ is. Yes, I know that TZ is looking for B-767-300ERs, but those will only replace the L-1011-500s, so there is no real change in the TZ military contract capacity.

Additionally the TZ/WN semi-merger will help both of these carriers and WN is now on the hook to see that TZ writes a business plan that will allow them to exit Chapter 11.

It does not appear that either UA or US is interested in writing an exit plan from bankruptcy. I also don't see what advantage America West could get for helping US Airways. But, there must be something or America West wouldn't be talking to US at all. I also don't see anyone stepping up to the plate to talk to UA to possibly help them with an exit plan.

The worst thing that will happen to the US airline industry is to allow US and UA to continue to operate under the protection of the bankruptcy court. That is where these two carriers have a "significant cost advantage" over their competition.

The faster United Airlines and US Airways liquidate, the better it will be for the surviving airlines. Both the UA and US employees already have their pensions protected. Instead of a threat to strike, they should be using their time looking for another job.
 
rsmith6621a
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 4):
For one very good reason is that under the current BK law it would be illegal.

There is no law under the BK code that makes it ilegal for employes to strike infact BK law TRUMPS the Railroad Act that you really are thinking of so Bush will not be able to invoke it.

The employes of UAL have earned the right to strike. They have had their livings RAPED while those EXECs whos offices are located in the Ivory Towers in Elk Grove Village have not taken any serious paycut at least enough for them to have to make lifestyle changes or worry about how they'll make the mortgage.

The company need to have a wakeup call as to who really is the one who make the airline work......that day is coming soon.
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KFLLCFII
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 13):
KC135TOPBOOM,
Take alook at this...im sure ual and usair had a hand in this as well..

http://www.detnews.com/2005/business/0505/01/B01-167245.htm
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
RogerThat
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 3:05 am

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Reply 16):
EXECs whos offices are located in the Ivory Towers in Elk Grove Village have not taken any serious paycut at least enough for them to have to make lifestyle changes or worry about how they'll make the mortgage.

Do you not think Tilton would be making bucket loads more had he stayed in the oil patch?
 
FA4UA
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 3:13 am

I'm concerned because there is no precedence about workforce strikes with airlines in Chapter 11. No carrier in Chapter 11 has ever struck (is what my little bit of research shows). If the firm imposes cuts, (whatever they are, pensions, work rule changes, etc) can't it be assumed that it's just part of the Chapter 11 process of restructuring?

I'd hate to see FA's, rampers, or anyone striking to prove how upset they are about loosing their pensions, and then end up fired since this is all happening within the court under the Chapter 11 umbrella. Not to mention the multimillion dollar fines that would be imposed on the Unions themselves from the court for obstruction!

Anybody out there have more info on this idea?

FA4UA
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C133
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 14):
PBGC is not funded by general tax revenues. PBGC collects insurance premiums from employers that sponsor insured pension plans, earns money from investments and receives funds from pension plans it takes over.

I'm happy to learn that, but doesn't the situation feel a lot like a slowly sinking boat? Or maybe a Ponzi scheme? And there can be no doubt who the payer of last resort going to be........
Fine: Tax for doing wrong. Tax: Fine for doing well.
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 3:39 am

If those UA FAs strike, they may not have a job to return to. They are biting the hand that feeds them, especially since UA is doing what they can to exit bankruptcy. A strike right now will hurt BOTH UA and the FAs. It's a lose-lose stiuation.

Retirement pensions and 401Ks are benefits that an employee receives, not an obligation of the employer. It is offered to each employee, and the employee's choice to enroll (or not).

From a business standpoint, a strike will cause the airline to LOSE money, because flights will be canceled and tickets refunded, yet the airlines will have to still pay airport fees and pay the other employees. Not only that, but the flying public may not return to flying UA, and take their allegiances to another airline.

If UA decides to scale down because of a strike (and the aftermath), those striking FAs have kissed their jobs goodbye.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
Indy
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 2):
We all know you want UA's ORD hub to die one way or another, perhaps the flight attendants will provide at least some of the means to that end.

That isn't exactly an accurate statement. I think it should be scaled back to cut down on delays that have such a negative impact on the network. But that isn't the point of this discussion. My concern isn't UA and any hub or city but rather the workers that have dedicated their working lives to UA just to have the possibility of having their retirement security stolen from them. It is even more disappointing to me as a tax payer to think that my taxes will pay for their pensions while UA is allowed to stay in operation. If they are going to stay in operation then they need to complete their obligation to their employees and pay them the wages they have earned and your retirement is an earned wage. It is simply defered. If the tax payers are going to foot the bill then UA needs to be shut down.

I would fully support the FA's and their strike. I would not support any union games like sick outs and garbage like that. But the employees would have every right to walk out.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
mcdu
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 3:59 am

"My concern isn't UA and any hub or city but rather the workers that have dedicated their working lives to UA just to have the possibility of having their retirement security stolen from them. It is even more disappointing to me as a tax payer to think that my taxes will pay for their pensions while UA is allowed to stay in operation."

indy,

did you happen to read the following from the pbgc website?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Money PBGC Takes In and Pays Out

PBGC is not funded by general tax revenues. PBGC collects insurance premiums from employers that sponsor insured pension plans, earns money from investments and receives funds from pension plans it takes over. PBGC pays monthly retirement benefits, up to a guaranteed maximum, to about 518,000 retirees in 3,479 pension plans that ended. Including those who have not yet retired and participants in multiemployer plans receiving financial assistance, PBGC is responsible for the current and future pensions of about 1,061,000 people.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indy,

How do you get that you are paying your tax dollars for UA retirements? If you are so opposed to UA retirements being paid then why not lobby the change in the court system? How about the US pensions? Where is your outrage of paying those pensions? Again UA survives or liquidates the PBGC gets the bill. (not the taxpayers, please read the PBGC website to correct your misinterpatations) You just want the employees of UAL to be unemployed it is plane and simple from your arguments that if UAL liquidates your company stands to have some type of gain. Again, you may be the airline in the crosshairs very soon. Should we celebrate the quick death of your carrier?
 
AADC10
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:07 am

United: the new Eastern. This might be the beginning of the end.

The IAM members are voting today here in Los Angeles. My wife is voting for the strike authorization because she is afraid the union will retaliate against her. She actually has little reason to vote for the strike because she did not participate in the pension plan and she does not depend on the income.
 
speedport
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:20 am

There is no law under the BK code that makes it ilegal for employes to strike...

Is there a law in the BK code that forces people to work if they don't want to?

Two things are happening here: UAL is trying to break the unions; the unions are threatening to break the company. Do you think UAL mistakenly asked for more than the unions were willing to give? And do you believe the UAL line that they are only asking for what they need to get out of BK? If you do, then you're a fool. The unions are deliberately being pushed up against a wall to break them.

A cage animal will strike no matter how domesticated it is.

One of two things will go down, either UAL will succeed in breaking the unions (AFA, AMFA, and the IAM - ALPA already sold itself for a bowl of soup) OR the unions will make good on their threats and act like caged animals.

A strike brings with it the right of return once it is settled; the replacement workers go home and the striking workers return. Under BK, the unions would call a strike, the company would move under a 1113(e) proceeding to abrogate the contracts because the unions, UAL would argue, are not cooperating, the judge would grant the motion, no more contracts equals no more unions equals no right to strike, the employees would be given the privilege by UAL of remaining on the job - at much reduced rates, of course.

A union action all depends on how cohesive the employees are. That's where CHAOS comes in; it's not a full-blown strike, but disruption throughout the system. Would UAL move under 1113(e) if CHAOS were to appear, you better believe they will. Breaking the unions is what this is all about. CHAOS won't work, only a full-blown strike has any meaning (an animal will bite the hand that feeds it if you treat it bad enough). A massive walk-off - AFA, AMFA, and the IAM - and United has no chance of survival; even if they recalled all their pilots to throw bags and take the heat at the gate (wouldn't that be something to see, I'd book a ticket just to see their faces when people scream at them for a change).

So, a full blown strike, UAL calls a 1113(e), the judge grants it, UAL gives employees the privilege of working for them again at much reduced rates, some employees cross, some remain. Just how many cross, or how fast UAL can restaff before running out of money is anyone’s guess. Can the unions still flex their collective muscle? Yes, if they stick together (a big if). Is UAL playing a dangerous game of chicken? Yes. Will one side cave-in at the last second to save the day? Yes. Is this just business as usual at the negotiating table? No.

Someone is going to lose big-time in this battle; don't necessarily assume it will be the unions.
 
mcdu
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:21 am

AA,

The UAL situation and the eastern situation are very different. The company went on strike then BK versus the proposed scenario that is being bantered here. Currently if any of the unions try a strike I am afraid the parade of employees crossing would be impressive. I have many friends that are UA F/A's that say they would continue to work as they can not afford to miss the paychecks.

Would be it is the same for the mechanics and the rampers. Under the current financial conditions there has not been alot of time to stock pile cash and or make preparations for a strike on their behalf. The worse thing that could happen is for the unions to strike, have a lot of people cross. You have just played all your cards and will be working for peanuts for the rest of your career. A negotiated settlement would be the best course of action but not sure the unions are willing to do so. The mechanics turn down a 5% cut and receive a 10% imposed cut by the judge. Where is the logic?

ALPA has not said whether or not they would support the others. My guess is silence is that ALPA would not support and the pilots along with the others would continue to run the airline. May be the opportunity the company has been wanting to weed out some of the aged F/A's and poor performers.

The dawn of a young group of F/A's that want to be at work may definitely be the competitive advantage we have been looking for  Smile
 
Indy
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:23 am

Mcdu... if the pensions are going to be convered by an insurance than thats fine. So long as the workers don't get screwed out of their retirement. And if US is doing the same then shame on them as well. Same goes for any airline that plans on taking away a persons retirement. As long as the worker gets his/her retirment and the taxpayers don't get stuck with the bill then I really don't care how they get from point A to point B.

BTW.... "Indy" in this case does not equal Independence. It is short for Indiananapolis. I assume that is what you were thinking when you said "death of your carrier"
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
rsmith6621a
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:35 am

I am losing my job on June 4th. I work for UAL in the Seattle RES center and we are closing(413 affected) as a result of OUTSOURCING and CORPORATE GREED. I am voting for a strike because for one I only have 2 years and have nothing vested, two, The only thing Ill lose is my forlough status and flight benis.

I am voted for a strike because the employee has given up MUCH and many have had to make sacrifices to stay at UAL because they have given much of their lives to UAL.

Again what has the EXECS in WHQ given up.......NOT AS MUCH....

The consumer must also accept their share of responsibility for this mess airfares have been way to LOW for way to LONG........you cant sell somthing at a minus figure and expect to get a plus out of it no matter how much volume you move......NOTHING FROM NOTHING IS .......NOTHING!!!!
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
LAXintl
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:38 am

For starters the May 10th, is merely a hearing date to have court to listen to United's request allowing the carrier to transfer its pension programs to the PBGC. Besides the company having its say, I am sure each involved union will have their respective legal representatives make their own appropriate arguments. Hence it is likely the court will not rule on the matter immediately.

As far as strikes AFA is talking about a CHAOS style campaign, while IAM and AMFA are talking more about a full walkout.

Case law regarding the legality of a labor distributions is somewhat gray, however I would tend to feel that in reality only a small portion of the unions contract is being amended with the proposed pension program termination. The contract otherwise remains intact, and thus does not meet the standard that the entire contract has been voided as the unions contend.
The court during Ch11 process does have wide ranging powers to amend or void contracts as it sees fit is in the best interest of the debtor.

Lastly the unions need to consider that they each might end up like American Airlines pilot union whom was found guilty and required to pay $45.5 million to AA in a contempt damage award from an illegal union sickout in 1999.

Ultimately any actions taken by the unions, will at the end only come back to hurt their members in an even greater fashion one way or the other.
A worst case scenario a involving a full shutdown of the carrier would see tens of thousands of union member loose their jobs. Any action whatsoever against the company that leads to economic damages to United will ultimately have to be paid for via even further cuts and sacrifices by the employees.

[Edited 2005-05-03 22:02:36]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
mcdu
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:40 am

lax,

Well said. Bravo!
 
Indy
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:50 am

I don't think it matters how much of a contract you breech for it to be considered a breech. And the courts cannot force them to work. That would be easily defeated on appeal. Forced labor is illegal. My view is the company doesn't get to pick and choose which parts of the contract is wishes to honor.

Rsmith6621a... sorry to hear about your job. I hope you are able to find a replacement in short order.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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casinterest
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:51 am

lax ...

"Several unions have been working under 90-day agreements while negotiating over concessions and pensions. They expire next Tuesday."

That would be May 10th.

United has not seriously addressed the concerns of their employee base, and have not made a meaningful and sincere attempt to address the concerns of the United Airlines labor force. I wish them luck, but I think time is starting to run out for this company.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
rsmith6621a
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 29):
In a worst case scenario a full shutdown of the carrier would see thousands of people loose their jobs and the unions having even less members to collect dues from.

Its not like you couldnt replace the income that the airlines have reduced their employees down to.....I think Wendy;s is pay better than what I make today.........as far as Union Dues!!!!!.....The company want the Union gone and they will eventualy win that battle to so the Union have nothing to lose.
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
LHRCS
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:55 am

Being on the front line I have daily contact with the crew and yes they are pissed with everything that is happening. But to me it does seems that its the older crew who are the most militant, the majority of the younger crew I talk to are not happy but seem to be more accepting of the situation.

All I can say is that if we do go under then its the older crew members that will lose the most Not only are their jobs, pensions and perks gone but who is going to hire them. They may hate what is going on but at least they have money coming in.

just my pennies worth..
 
Indy
Topic Author
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 4:55 am

While I don't wish unemployment on the hard working people of UA I would think the failing of UA would be a blessing for AA. They would have then lost UA competition in ORD and DL competition in DFW in a very short period of time. Having a monopoly in those two airports would cure alot of problems I would think. Am I wrong?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ASAFA
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 5:31 am

It's funny how all the people who cheer for the demise of UA and US are the same people who demand $39 fares for every flight. Watch those airlines disappear and you will watch the price of tickets skyrocket. Airlines don't keep fares low out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it because of competition.

As someone with a family member who has 35+ years at UA it is incredibly hard to watch what is happening to the company. If there is a strike on any front (mechanics, flight attendants, etc...) UA will liquidate within 48 hours. The employees know this, and obviously don't want it to happen, but where do you draw the line and take a stand? How much should you have to give back to a company you have served for decades? It's been said before; it's a lose lose situation. Only time will tell, but for the sake of all the employees at both UA and US I hope something can be worked out.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 30):
lax,

Well said. Bravo!

Thank you.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 32):
"Several unions have been working under 90-day agreements while negotiating over concessions and pensions. They expire next Tuesday."

I am well aware of the temporary agreements. Who is to say however that these agreements will not be extended while the company and unions argue over the matter in court. May 10th is not a drop dead date. The court has great leeway during Ch-11 cases.

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Reply 33):
Its not like you couldnt replace the income that the airlines have reduced their employees down to.....I think Wendy;s is pay better than what I make today

I am sorry you are loosing your job as results of the closure of SEARR. However reading your response in Reply#28 makes it clear you are quite vengeful against the company. However I'd ask, why would you like to wish further harm to those thousands of fellow employees still at United?

Quoting Indy (Reply 31):
I don't think it matters how much of a contract you breech for it to be considered a breech. And the courts cannot force them to work. That would be easily defeated on appeal. Forced labor is illegal. My view is the company doesn't get to pick and choose which parts of the contract is wishes to honor

Forced labor is indeed illegal. That's why like the poster above Wendy's is always an option.
But seriously under BK law, and debtor can always petition the court to remove what it considers onerous requirements or obligations the company has in a variety of contracts including labor agreements.
I would believe an average layman would agree that the company has shown that the current and particularly future pension obligations it faces are such that must seek relief if it is to continue as a viable business concern.

Instead of possibly blaming United, this whole pension debate needs to be a more national debate. There are hundred of companies that have been forced into bankruptcy and even shutdown as a result of massive pension funding issues. Look at it this way, assuming United were to make its pension payments these obligations grown each and every year, eventually reaching the multi billion dollar level were they are today. Just like Social Security mushrooming.
At the same time United which in itself is handicapped by other high cost must compete against airlines such as Jetblue whom have both lower cost and zero pension funding obligations.

Do you know how many defined obligation pension programs were started in the United States in the last 4 years?? 1, that right only 1, while several hundred have defaulted.

Unfortunately times have changes, every industry has tighter and tighter margins in this globalized world. Pensions are simply something companies cannot afford to provide. A voluntary contribution program like 401k's are what the majority of American can participate in.

I can feel the pain of union members. I afterall have good friends whom have seen their pensions disappear by the failure companies like Pan Am.
However to avoid United taking the same path as Pan Am, the company, employees and unions must come together and realize what todays tough economics mean to each one.

Lastly I hope my comments have not offended anyone. I very much hope the thousands of employees in the United family can once again be proud and work happily at one of the worlds premier airlines.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
rsmith6621a
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 31):
Rsmith6621a... sorry to hear about your job. I hope you are able to find a replacement in short order.

Thanks Indy and I already have....doing what I have been training for,Aircraft Dispatcher.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 37):
am sorry you are loosing your job as results of the closure of SEARR. However reading your response in Reply#28 makes it clear you are quite vengeful against the company. However I'd ask, why would you like to wish further harm to those thousands of fellow employees still at United?

I am not vengeful at all.....I am simply pissed that the non mangagement employee is taking all of this BK crap in their shorts and at their expense. Mr Tilton still has his 50K Golf and Country Club annual Membership and his family still flys NRPS in first class whenever they want....Where and When does the BUCK stop...UAL has been asking for employees to give back well before 9/11 infact it goes all the way back to 1997........then the next thing was the ESOP......9/11 was just another opportunity to take more.....not one employee employed since before 1997 has been able to get back to the same pay level since........

[Edited 2005-05-03 23:10:10]
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
mcdu
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 35):
Having a monopoly in those two airports would cure alot of problems I would think. Am I wrong?

When is a monopoly good?
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):
UA and US, on the other hand continue to except deliveries of A-319, A-320, A-330 (US), and E-170 aircraft, while parking their classic B-737, B-767 (US) and B-777 (UA). This leads me to believe that UA/US are maintaining their capacity at approximately their pre-bankruptcy levels,

Don't mix US an UA together. UA is reducing capacity. They are parking their 735s and 733s, while recieving a smaller quantity of Airbii, as well as ERJ-170s, all of which are more fuel efficient than the older Boeings, and switching former 735 flights to ERJ-170s is a capactity cut. So no, at least United is not keeping their capacity the same. And parking some of their 777s - those came off the domestic routes as far as i know

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
Indy
Topic Author
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 39):
When is a monopoly good?

It is good when you are the one with the monopoly. AA will be able to charge prices that actually result in a profit.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
squirrel83
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 6:14 am

The pension issue will be back up in bankruptcy court one week from Tuesday. The airline says it remains willing to discuss alternatives to government take-over, but no one has found an acceptable one yet. Without a resolution to the pension question, a strike is a real possibility.

The airline says while it remains in bankruptcy, its unions are precluded -- by law -- from striking. They unions disagree and they may call for a job action depending upon what happens in court next week.
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 6:20 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
With the way UA (and US) have been acting during their bankruptcy (dumping their pension package on the US taxpayers, and the US baggage "stunt" over Christmas), does anyone really care?

If UA and US liquidated today, there would be a marked improvement in customer service in the US airline industry (even if nothing else changes).

The US created the PBGC. So once again we have a tool created by the US government, which people don't want to be used. I don't get it. If it's OK for other airlines or the steel industry, or other companies why isn't OK for UA to use the tools available? Or is really that you just don't like UA.

As for the US fiasco over Christmas, how you can blame the company for problems that where caused by thier employees is beyond me. That was an employee job action not a US managment problem. I should know I worked in UA's baggage service through out that time and our passengers were impacted as well.

Your last comment just highlights your lack of knowlege. If UA were to suddenly liqudate customer service levels in the US would go down. UA was the only so called "Legacy" carrier to rank inthe top 5 for Customer service.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
FA4UA
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 6:30 am

LAXINTL, if I could AGAIN put you on my respected users list I would. Your comments are always very thorough and well grounded.

I know I'm in the minority within my FA peers when I say:

1) UA needs to emerge from Ch. 11 a fierce, lean, mean, fighting machine, with best in class costs to inspire investment. Cutting pensions lowers our costs in a dramatic way.

2) I have yet to see any union within the property suggest a way to accomplish that other than saying management should be replaced. This answer doesn't solve the problem of getting exit financing.

3) I'm sorry we're all getting screwed with lower wages and an uncertain retirement (I feel that too since I'm suffering along with everyone else), however if you CHOOSE to work in these present Market Realities shouldn't we realize that this is how it is? Often we blame previous mistakes which I've done myself, but it offers no solution for our near future.

HOW ARE WE TO ATTRACT THE EXIT FINANCING WITHOUT A BEST IN CLASS CASM?

Additionally, nobody has really answered or perhaps seen my question posted in reply #19:

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 19):
I'm concerned because there is no precedence about workforce strikes with airlines in Chapter 11. No carrier in Chapter 11 has ever struck (is what my little bit of research shows). If the firm imposes cuts, (whatever they are, pensions, work rule changes, etc) can't it be assumed that it's just part of the Chapter 11 process of restructuring?

I'd hate to see FA's, rampers, or anyone striking to prove how upset they are about loosing their pensions, and then end up fired since this is all happening within the court under the Chapter 11 umbrella. Not to mention the multimillion dollar fines that would be imposed on the Unions themselves from the court for obstruction!

Anybody out there have more info on this idea?
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 6:37 am

anything like a strike that would disrupt UA's revenue stream would certainly accelerate the company's demise.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
bravo7e7
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 6:42 am

FA4UA, I COMPLETELY agree with you. What SOME are failing to realize is that United is not doing this to be the big evil bully, but rather to try to emerge from Bankruptcy. Sure it would be nice if everyone could get a pay raise now, but that would end everyone up on the streets. I think that everyone at UA should unite and try to pull through these times, and hope for a brighter future. This is not to say that I support taking away pensions and wages, but it is this or the unemployment line.
Anyway, I don't think that a strike will occur for many reasons, including some hopefully coming to their senses. I wish the best for UA, and if they got kaput I still have five tickets booked on them. I will be flying them this weekend, so I will get a closer look hopefully.
 
FA4UA
Posts: 777
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 46):
Anyway, I don't think that a strike will occur for many reasons, including some hopefully coming to their senses.

I agree... I think 90% of this stuff is just Sabre rattling.

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
commavia
Posts: 9744
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 7:16 am

Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
I highly doubt you will see an all out strike. What will likely happen in a CHAOS strike. Ranom walkouts of certain flights with little or no notice. A complete shutdown of UAL? Unlikely.

I agree. I doubt that a full-out, old-fashioned physical walkout (i.e., the entire United universe comes to a grinding halt) will actually occur. I just don't see UA's FAs doing that. What is more likely is, as Indy said, CHAOS, as it is extremely easy and fast to plan, has limited effect on the FAs themselves, but has maximum horrible operational, logistical and PR impact on UA, the FA's objective.

What remains unclear to me, however, is whether UA can even withstand CHAOS, let alone a full strike. UA's finances are so precarious and their market position so fragile right now that it may not be able to withstand to the enormous costs of sporadic, localized, unplanned and unannounced operational shutdowns (CHAOS) or the horrible PR. The FAs obviously know this -- they know that even the slightest hint of uncertainty will overnight cause huge bookaway from UA and cause major financial problems for an already weakened UA, potentially even bad enough to cause the airline to collapse.

I also agree, as a few hinted here, that if (and that is a huge if) UA were to shut down, AA's stock would probably double within twenty minutes. AA would obviously be the huge beneficiary here, as they would probably double ORD flying overnight, dramatically increase transcons (mainly from LAX/SFO), and would probably be the only suitor for UA's coveted Asia routes (as AA's cash position makes it pretty much the only airline in America, short of Southwest, who could afford them right now).
 
PVD757
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RE: Will UA FA's Strike On May 10th?

Wed May 04, 2005 7:28 am

I think a major point of contention is missing in this discussion. United hasn't been paying into these pensions for a while now. They are all underfunded for certain reasons. That is one of them. They keep saying that they would save $600 or so million a year. If they are not paying into them, how do they count this a savings? Maybe on the balance sheet, but this does not affect the negative cash flow that still exists with United. I heard they are striking for other reasons, not the pension ordeal.

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