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chrisnh
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WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 9:55 am

If Southwest Airlines were to expand to Canada, would they need approval from the Canadian government or is there an 'Open Skies' agreement in place between the U.S. and Canada? I've thought that the Canadian Maritimes would be great for Southwest; other cities in Canada, too. If Southwest wants to grow in the lower 48, they will bump into competition almost anywhere. Places like Halifax and St. John may seem 'too small,' but there are plenty of 'too small' cities in the U.S. that Southwest serves quite successfully. How easy is it for someone in Halifax or St. John to get to, say, Nashville or Orlando? Seems like a natural to give people up there access to the lower 48 that Southwest can provide.

I just didn't know whether the Canadian government would 'prevent' Southwest from entering their country because of the potential damage it might cause to Air Canada.

Chris in NH
 
flyyul
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 9:58 am

Dear Chris in NH,

There is an open skies agreement.

Southwest would not suceed in small Canadian cities. This is not a function of under-service, its a simple function of market size.

Southwest would, and could never suceed in Halifax/St-John's/Winnipeg etc.
 
N1120A
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 10:01 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 1):
Southwest would, and could never suceed in Halifax/St-John's/Winnipeg etc.

Would you say the same thing about HRL, JAN, GEG, MHT, AMA, BOI, BUF, BDL?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
flyyul
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 10:06 am

Sir,

As you may or may not have noticed, Canada is different country. It has a different culture, even though its closely linked to American culture. Canadians do not travel to the United States, at nearly the same rate as Americans travel within their borders. So your point of comparison is not quite applicable.

That being said, I am willing bet you my life savings that BUF-BWI or BUF-Midway market size and potential is much higher, exactly for the reasons stated above.

Further to this, Southwest's fares would need to below cost, given the fact that there is a 60-70% fees and surcharge rates imposed on US/Canada tickets. Thats right, go to www.aircanada and price a Halifax-Boston, and wait till you see the end result  Wink

Again, if Southwest came to Canada, it would be to Montreal, TOronto, Calgary, Vancouver.

Even then, if there was such a high demand for the LCC phenomenon, why are carriers like WestJet/Canjet sticking to your usual high-leisure US markets like PHX/FLL/MCO/SFO/LAX etc... safe for LGA.
 
N1120A
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 10:15 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
r usual high-leisure US markets like PHX/FLL/MCO/SFO/LAX etc...

2 of those are among the largest BUSINESS destinations in the world.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
As you may or may not have noticed, Canada is different country.

Really? Is that why they call it Canada?  crazy 

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
It has a different culture, even though its closely linked to American culture.

I am very well aware of that as well

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
So your point of comparison is not quite applicable.

Yes, it is. Halifax and Winnipeg are larger cities than many of the ones I mentioned. Add to that, Winnipeg is also a business destination and is close to the border. WN would not dismiss those cities as quickly as you would think. The same can be said with AC, which flies to many smaller US cities
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ac345yyz
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 10:21 am

FLYYUL, says who that Canadians do not travel to the United States, the main gateway for Canadians on Vacation is the United States, Try YYZ at 5am in the middle of march, the majority of flights are leaving to the U.S.
 
BOSPMV
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 10:23 am

I just priced a flight, for example, June 10-17, there are 3 n/s, all 3 were less than $150, not to bad at all. In fact, I am surprised at how low these fares are, $99 roundtrip to Montreal, Toronto is only $122. Vancouver is only $252.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 10:25 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
Places like Halifax and St. John may seem 'too small,' but there are plenty of 'too small' cities in the U.S. that Southwest serves quite successfully

Saint John, NB or St. John’s, NF?

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
How easy is it for someone in Halifax or St. John to get to, say, Nashville or Orlando?

Easy enough. One stop service thru BOS. Price is another thing - its hit or miss.

My parents live in their homeland - New Brunswick, 3 hours Fredericton, and 2 hours to Bangor, Maine. Comair offers 2 daily CRJs to YFC from Logan. I’ve been able to score some excellent deals on Delta from Las Vegas. But, YFC is a bit of a quagmire to get to as it requires a ferry from their place – which is unpunctual at best and seasonal - or crossing the international border twice (Campobello is unique as it is connected to the US Maineland but not to mainland Canada).

Traveling around the Maritimes/Atlantic Provinces is not the bargain traveling in the States is. Given the size and remoteness of some cities, it’s still an OK deal with what I consider sufficient service from Air Canada and WestJet.

Bangor can sometimes be lethal with fares, so I find myself taking the Concord Trailways from Bangor to Boston, where there is an overabundance of competition (read: low fares) or going to MHT where I find my beloved Southwest. Coex will be flying to BGR this summer 2x daily ERJs to EWR, reduced to 1x daily in the fall.

Portland is getting better with the advent of FlyI.

Keep in mind, setting up an international station is very expensive and commencing international service brings a whole host of other factors into the picture.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
srbmod
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 10:36 am

Southwest will never start service into Canada as it does not fit their operations. Even with the ease of clearing customs on US-Canada flights, delays are common due to Customs issues. Then you have to add another currency for paying rent, parking and landing fees, fuel, payroll, and currency conversion adds to the costs as well. And then you throw YUL in the mix and then you have to have French-speaking employees in addition to English speaking employees. Plus having to do dual language signs, tickets, etc.
 
flyyul
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 11:35 am

AC345.

Says me.

Of the 28 million pax that travelled through pearson last year, only 8 mil were Transborder.

Of the 10.5 million at YUL, only 2.7 million were transborder.

Of the 14.5 million at YVR, only 4 million were transborder.

So no, Canadians dont travel with the same propensity, or dont travel as nearly per capita within the USA as Americans do.

So even if Halifax is a travel market of 2 or 3 million pax, only a good 4/500,000-600,000 are transborder (Canada-USA).
 
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yyz717
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 12:19 pm

WN is very well known in Canada. I'm sure that if they added YYZ, YHM, YYC or YVR, Cdns would flock to them.

WN is known for creating addl pax demand when they add markets and routes. I'm sure the same would happen if they added Cdn markets. '
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ckfred
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 12:47 pm

A friend of mine who flies for AA has discussed this issue with WN pilots riding in the jumpseats. Here are the common reasons why WN has no interest in Canada:

1. While Canada and the U.S. have an open-skies agreement, there is still a process for new entrants into the transborder market. WN management feels the time and expense for getting cleared by Washington and Ottawa to fly transborder are too great.

2. Since WN works on a business model that has low fares, it doesn't want to deal with fluctuations between the U.S. dollar and the Canadian dollar. It makes pricing tickets sold in Canada too complicated.

3. Fuel, landing fees, gate rental, catering, crew hotels and transportation, ground handling, salaries for airport personnel, etc., have to be paid in Canadian dollars. This makes pricing tickets tricky, since Canadian costs are going to fluctuate some.

4. Since Canada has a federal sales tax, that also throws WN's pricing out of whack. For the most part, trips of similar distances have similar fares. Because of Canadian taxes, a flight between the U.S. and Canada might be more expensive than a domestic flight of similar distance.

I have no way of knowing how valid these reasons are, but since WN has stuck to the business model that has made it so successful, I don't see them starting transborder service anytime soon.

If they did, however, I do think they would give AC, WestJet, CanJet, and the U.S. carriers a lot of competition.
 
ScottB
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 12:55 pm

Quoting BOSPMV (Reply 6):
Toronto is only $122

I'm pretty sure that is US $122 each way, and the various taxes and fees add an extra $65 on top of that for a total of $310 round-trip.

While Halifax is a reasonably-sized city, the overall demand for travel to the U.S. from there is limited. While there certainly is some demand for transborder business and leisure travel, it's nothing like the demand for domestic Canadian or domestic U.S. demand.
 
BOSPMV
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 1:16 pm

chris, do you choose to fly out of mht over bos?
 
CXYYZ
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 10:05 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):
WN is very well known in Canada. I'm sure that if they added YYZ, YHM, YYC or YVR, Cdns would flock to them.

WN is known for creating addl pax demand when they add markets and routes. I'm sure the same would happen if they added Cdn markets. '

Why would we "flock" to WN? We have WestJet and it has, arguably, a superior inflight product to WN and it's a home grown name that we hear of far more often than Southwest and already has an established positive image.

WestJet and Canjet are already creating new demand, I don't know what WN would be able to do that would manage to create any further demand than the incumbent LCCs could if they were to decide to serve more transborder routes.

I would welcome Southwest to Canada but I don't think it makes as much sense for them to enter the market here as some seem to think it does.
 
Olympus69
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 11:28 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 9):
Of the 28 million pax that travelled through Pearson last year, only 8 mil were Transborder.

That 'only 8 million' works out to nearly 22,000 transborder passengers a day. That sounds like a pretty significant number to me.
 
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yyz717
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting CXYYZ (Reply 14):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):
WN is very well known in Canada. I'm sure that if they added YYZ, YHM, YYC or YVR, Cdns would flock to them.

WN is known for creating addl pax demand when they add markets and routes. I'm sure the same would happen if they added Cdn markets. '

Why would we "flock" to WN? We have WestJet and it has, arguably, a superior inflight product to WN and it's a home grown name that we hear of far more often than Southwest and already has an established positive image.

We would flock to them because they (would) offer cheap fares and frequencies, and the brand is well-known and respected. Many Cdns already drive to BUF daily to fly AirTran and WN.

Quoting CXYYZ (Reply 14):
I don't know what WN would be able to do that would manage to create any further demand than the incumbent LCCs could if they were to decide to serve more transborder routes.

WN increases the size of any market they enter into. There is alot of oppty for addl demand to US cities if prices were lower. The largest player on US-Canada routes is AC which continues to maintain a high cost structure which keeps fares high.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
stirling
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RE: WN And Canada

Wed May 04, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 15):
That 'only 8 million' works out to nearly 22,000 transborder passengers a day. That sounds like a pretty significant number to me.

Or 28% of the market....I would say 1 out 4 passengers using Pearson to travel to U.S. points is significant indeed.
Delete this User
 
EMBQA
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 12:52 am

We can talk about WN and Canada all we want, but you'll never see them they international. First, there operating certificate doesn't allow them to fly international....and second, it doesn't fit into their quick turn model. They clearly have something that is not broken, and they will not change it.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
jacobin777
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):
First, there operating certificate doesn't allow them to fly international...

that can be changed without too much of a problem...

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):
it doesn't fit into their quick turn model. They clearly have something that is not broken, and they will not change it.

depends.. PHL-YYZ-PHL is certainly going to be much shorter flight than MDW-OAK-MDW route by a few hours....I also wouldn't be surprised that they would be able to have a quick operational turnaround too.
"Up the Irons!"
 
AC787
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 16):
AC which continues to maintain a high cost structure which keeps fares high.

There cost structure has improved greatly since exiting bk and there prices to the states have actually been reasonably priced from my own experience. Throw in there new embraers and CRJ700's and theyll open up new routes and make the ones they operate transborder even more profitable. AC's operations into the states seem to be on the right track.

AC787
 
RogerThat
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 3:14 am

I seem to remember hearing about lots of Montreal Canadians driving to Burlington, VT to pick up PeoplExpress flights. If the price is right anything could happen.

At one time or another, you could say Southwest was:

1. A small intra-state Texas carrier
2. Expanding but keeping out of the way of the big dogs
3. Never going to fly into the congested Northeast

How about: DAL - YYZ, LAX - YVR or even DAL - MEX.
 
atmx2000
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 3:44 am

DAL - YYZ or DAL - MEX

Wouldn't the Wright Amendment prevent this, or at least the lack of customs at DAL?
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 4:12 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 22):
Wouldn't the Wright Amendment prevent this, or at least the lack of customs at DAL?

The lack of customs would not prevent that, simply on the basis that there ARE customs at Love Field. I am not sure if it is a large enough presence for a 737-700 on an international flight from Mexico City, but there is certainly a presence. My question, actually, would be why doesn't Air Canada fly their CRJ's to Toronto from Love Field rather than the monster at Dallas-Fort Worth?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
EMBQA
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 8:04 am

....I also wouldn't be surprised that they would be able to have a quick operational turnaround too.

The Southwest model is a 20 minute ground time....you will NEVER get that flying international. The time required just to clear Customs is much longer then that, plus the added fee's and requirements to fly international just do not work for Southwest. This topic has been brought up before and the consensus of those in the industry is a firm no-never.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
sebring
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 8:19 am

A 20-minute turnaround at YYZ? It's more like a 20-minute taxi between the runway and the terminal. I kid you not. The fact is, about two-thirds of all transborder traffic is origin Canada, and while WN is well known in certain quarters, it's cost structure is no better than Westjet or Canjet, both of whom fly a route like YYZ-LGA (well, Westjet is getting off the route in July). WN doesn't have a big midwest hub to distribute transborder transcon flows. Yes, some Canadians go to Buffalo or Burlington to get WN flights, but they are incremental to the main market. Most non-sun transborder routes are small volume that require some business traffic support. AC has a fleet of 50-seat, 73-seat, 75-seat and 93-seat jets which will be used increasingly on those routes. There simply isn't enough daily traffic on a route like Toronto-Kansas City for a larger jet. All the stimulation in the world won't make most transborder routes large enough for the likes of WN, and if the latter doesn't start service from ORD, LGA, JFK, EWR, DCA, etc - the places Canadian business travellers are going - then it isn't likely to interest the large majority of transborder business travellers.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 8:28 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 24):

The Southwest model is a 20 minute ground time....you will NEVER get that flying international.

WN hasn't been doing 20 minute turns for a long time. While capable of 20 minute turns at some stations, WN schedules about 28 minutes for a turn, allowing flexibility if the airplane is late.
 
EMBQA
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 8:39 am

WN hasn't been doing 20 minute turns for a long time. While capable of 20 minute turns at some stations, WN schedules about 28 minutes for a turn, allowing flexibility if the airplane is late.

Oh my 8 mintes... its still not going to buy you the time needed to flt international.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 8:51 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 27):
Oh my 8 mintes...

That's 40% more time than you cared to admit

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 27):
its still not going to buy you the time needed to flt international.

Why not?

First, unless there is some rule that I'm unaware of, immigration doesn't happen at the L1 door. Passengers will have to go through INS, but how does that change the time alotted for passengers to physically get on/off the airplane? It changes the time it takes passengers to get to the curb, but it shouldn't change how fast it WN can turn an airplane.

I'd imagine there are some extra flight procedures and what not... but does anyone have a reason as to why WN couldn't turn an airplane in 30 minutes.

Second, why must WN turn an airplane in 30 minutes? WN schedules on a need basis (certin cities are given more time than others) so if an extra 5 minutes were that necessary, they would schedule them into the system. I cannot comprehend that turn time would be an insurmountable challenge for Canadian ops.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 24):
This topic has been brought up before and the consensus of those in the industry is a firm no-never.

Who in "the industry" was blockheaded enough to say that? If there is one thing those "in the loop" know about WN, it's never say never.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 25):
WN doesn't have a big midwest hub to distribute transborder transcon flows.

Chicago? Besides, WN doesn’t rely on hub and spoke entirely for their operations.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 25):
Yes, some Canadians go to Buffalo or Burlington to get WN flights

Burlington has no Southwest but low fares compliments of B6.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):
Second, why must WN turn an airplane in 30 minutes?

DFW, if you are asking why they need to turn a plane in a short time frame (as opposed to why they’d need longer for intl) – a plane on the ground is a plane not in the air making money. And seeing that Southwest has printed money for 3+ decades, they don’t want longer turn times.

edit - after reading your post again, DFW, I get the gist plus you know that (what I said above).

[Edited 2005-05-05 02:27:20]
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
MKEdude
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 1:56 pm

WN has never pursued any international routes, however that is not to say that someday they might. (The ATA deal proves their willingness to think beyond their original business model)

However I think that if they did start thinking international that they would probably look south first. WN has been going hard after the leisure market lately and they could probably make a killing running down to Cancun, Puerto Vallarta, Cabo, etc.

WN in Mexico. Thoughts?
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2375
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 2:27 pm

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 30):
WN in Mexico. Thoughts?

God no. In fact, WN nowhere outside us borders. The last thing I want to see is WN dumping it's hoards in CUN.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
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yyz717
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 9:02 pm

All this "analysis" about why WN would "never" fly to Canada or Mexico is fine, but things can change quickly in the airline industry.

If the mandarins at WN HQ determine one day that margins on any route in Canada justify the incremental cost of the operation, WN will be up to Canada like a dirty shirt. Similarly, if US expansion plans are curtailed due to market saturation, WN will need to look to intl markets (again, there is no indication this will happen soon).

WN's model is based on revenue growth and profit. One day (whether in 3 years or 15 years) this will require looking at intl routes.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 25):
WN doesn't have a big midwest hub to distribute transborder transcon flows.

MDW and STL are big WN "hubs".
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
sccutler
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RE: WN And Canada

Thu May 05, 2005 9:04 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 31):
God no. In fact, WN nowhere outside us borders. The last thing I want to see is WN dumping it's hoards in CUN.

???

What does this mean?
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
RogerThat
Posts: 505
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RE: WN And Canada

Fri May 06, 2005 12:51 am

I think SCCutler is trying to say that Southwest's clientele is trailer park trash and has no bidness going to the upper crust resorts of Cancun.
 
CXH
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:37 am

RE: WN And Canada

Fri May 06, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 25):
A 20-minute turnaround at YYZ? It's more like a 20-minute taxi between the runway and the terminal. I kid you not.

Whenever I've flown out of yyz it seems to take at least 5~10 minutes to taxi + wait, and 20 minutes during peak hours sounds typical. (I'm flying YVRYYZ and return next week on WS, so I guess I'll have to time it!)

Yet WestJet schedules 35 and 36 minutes turnarounds in YYZ (and 30 minutes in YHZ). How do they do that? Are they padding their flights times so that the plane actually gets in a few minutes early and/or has slack in the outbound flight?

Their new YVR-YYZ-YYG (Charlottetown) on a 738:
Tue, 05 Jul 05 Flight WS 688
07:00 Depart Vancouver, BC (YVR)
14:30
15:05 Through Toronto, ON (YYZ)
18:01 Arrive Charlottetown, PE (YYG)

Returning
Sun, 10 Jul 05
Flight WS 689
18:35 Depart Charlottetown, PE (YYG)
19:44
20:20 Through Toronto, ON (YYZ)
22:25 Arrive Vancouver, BC (YVR)
I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
 
AussieItaliano
Posts: 343
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RE: WN And Canada

Fri May 06, 2005 5:08 am

One reason why WN is not going to fly to Canada anytime soon is because they still see other cities in the US that are in need of the "Southwest Effect". They won't go international until they've hit these markets.
Third Runway - LHR, Second Runway - LGW, Build Them Both!!!
 
Goose
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RE: WN And Canada

Fri May 06, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 31):
God no. In fact, WN nowhere outside us borders. The last thing I want to see is WN dumping it's hoards in CUN.

Yes, we can't have those unwashed masses going on vacation in Mexico.  Yeah sure

.... if they have the money to pay for it, then let 'em spend it. I'm sure there's hotel operators, restaurant and club owners who would probably agree with me.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
sccutler
Posts: 5568
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: WN And Canada

Fri May 06, 2005 12:00 pm

Quoting RogerThat (Reply 34):
I think SCCutler is trying to say that Southwest's clientele is trailer park trash and has no bidness going to the upper crust resorts of Cancun.

No, SCCutler was confused by the prior post, knowing not what it meant.

SCCutler thinks WN's clientele are among the best-heeled and most discriminating consumers of airline travel services, and he revels in the high quality of passengers he finds on those many Southwest flights he takes. He also notes that, if there is a "stereotypical" WN passenger, that passenger is a senior executive, a business owner or a professional, is traveling to do some serious business, has neither the time nor the patience to tolerate legacy carrier incompetence, and is offended by the confiscatory pricing promoted by traditional "hub and spoke" carriers.

SCCutler is tired of writing in third-person, now.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
RogerThat
Posts: 505
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RE: WN And Canada

Sat May 07, 2005 12:13 am

RogerThat once told his dad how the passengers waiting to board Southwest's Burbank to Las Vegas flight looked like convicts waiting for the next bus to San Quentin. RogerThat's dad said that was the same with Western Airlines in the 1940s and 1950s. It's the route not the carrier. And in those days people went to Las Vegas for some serious misbehaving, unlike today.

RogerThat is one of the stereotypical legAAcy carrier fliers. But alas, is no longer gouged by last minute high fares thanks to Delta's Simplifares.

RogerThat should stop putting words in other members mouths and spend less time on a.net during the day.
 
avek00
Posts: 3157
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: WN And Canada

Sat May 07, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):
First, unless there is some rule that I'm unaware of, immigration doesn't happen at the L1 door.

Yes it does, actually - the aircraft itself can be required to undergo Customs and security inspections, and the crew subjected to Immigration checks.
Live life to the fullest.
 
dacman
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 9:22 am

RE: WN And Canada

Sat May 07, 2005 12:26 am

As a Southwest employee I have learned to say "Never say Never" about our airline. I'm not saying we are going to start service to Canada tomorrow, but in the years to come, who knows.

The airline industry is a continually changing environment. If the opportunity presented itself and the front office folks knew there was a need and a profit to be made by operating into Canada I'm sure if the time was right we might commence service.

I never thought when I started with WN that we would be serving PHL and PIT, but look at were we are today.

So again "Never say Never" when it comes to WN.

Mike (dacman)
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OzarkD9S
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RE: WN And Canada

Sat May 07, 2005 12:45 am

Southwest has ATA for any and ALL international ventures.

Southwest has literally hundreds, maybe thousands of domestic opportunities.

There is always a chance that WN will fly outside the US, and there's always a chance I'll give birth to a baby rhino on national tv during a Presidential address by GW Bush telling the world he's been a closet homosexual his whole life.
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CanadaEH
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RE: WN And Canada

Sat May 07, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting CHX (Reply 36):
Yet WestJet schedules 35 and 36 minutes turnarounds in YYZ (and 30 minutes in YHZ). How do they do that? Are they padding their flights times so that the plane actually gets in a few minutes early and/or has slack in the outbound flight?

We just did a review of our OTP and have adjusted the block times to more acurately reflect flight performance, adjusted block times in Tier 1 bases (more time) and in Tier 2/3 bases (reduced time). Also, on our long-haul flights (YVR-YYZ/YUL, YYC-YUL/YHZ, for example) we adjust block times to take into account the seasonal winds that have been determined to delay our flights.
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AirplanePeanut
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RE: WN And Canada

Sat May 07, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 12):
Quoting BOSPMV (Reply 6):
Toronto is only $122

I'm pretty sure that is US $122 each way, and the various taxes and fees add an extra $65 on top of that for a total of $310 round-trip.

122+65=187

187x2=374

64 dollars is a big difference to budget people.
..
 
ScottB
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RE: WN And Canada

Sat May 07, 2005 9:51 am

Quoting AirplanePeanut (Reply 44):
122+65=187

187x2=374

64 dollars is a big difference to budget people.

$65 TOTAL, not each way. $122+$122+$65 = $309. Actually, it was closer to $311 because the taxes were something like $66.70 but $65 was close enough. Yeesh, go price it yourself on aircanada.com instead of being a dweeb.

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 36):
One reason why WN is not going to fly to Canada anytime soon is because they still see other cities in the US that are in need of the "Southwest Effect". They won't go international until they've hit these markets.

This summarizes the reason why WN doesn't fly international yet. They don't need to, and there are plenty of domestic growth opportunities to keep them busy for years.
 
desertjets
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RE: WN And Canada

Sat May 07, 2005 10:48 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 45):
Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 36):
One reason why WN is not going to fly to Canada anytime soon is because they still see other cities in the US that are in need of the "Southwest Effect". They won't go international until they've hit these markets.

This summarizes the reason why WN doesn't fly international yet. They don't need to, and there are plenty of domestic growth opportunities to keep them busy for years.

I am glad that somebody mentioned that, finally. But at times it seems that some here think that Moses himself came down from Mt. Sinai with Southwest's business model. Thou shalt have 28 minute turnaround times and thou shalt not assign seats ain't written in stone folks.

The real reason for Southwest's success is that its business model, and corporate structure, is flexible and adaptable. If the folks in the planning department think they can make stronger profits by flying YYZ-MDW/PHL/PHX/etc... vs. FAT-LAX or whatever, then you'll bet they'll start flying transborder. And with more than 1 in 4 passengers at Pearson flying transborder, there is most certainly a market there. It ain't a question of if, but a matter of when.

Same thing goes for WestJet or CanJet if they ever wanted to get serious about the transborder market.
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CanadaEH
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RE: WN And Canada

Sat May 07, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 46):
Same thing goes for WestJet or CanJet if they ever wanted to get serious about the transborder market.

When you operate in a country the size of Canada (population 32M'ish) you run out of growth opportunities within the border fairly quick. A Canadian carrier is more likely to launch transborder service than an American carrier simply because there isn't as much growth potential within Canada as there is within the US.
EH.

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