PSU.DTW.SCE
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Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Wed May 04, 2005 9:58 pm

Mesa, under Freedom Air will fly up to 30 CRJ-200's for Delta Connection.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050504/clw022.html?.v=10

And the musical chairs game of regional airlines continues. Its almost now a certain that Mesa is out over at USAirways with Republic & Air Wisconsin providing financial backing.

I'm confused at how this Mesa deal somehow resolves the issues with the FRJ's formerly operated by ACA and who is paying the leases or getting them out of Delta's hands.

And then what does this mean for Comair & ASA.....probably pressure for concessionary contracts.

This industry is amazing, and this rumor slipped under the radar until yesterday.
 
jdaniel001
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Wed May 04, 2005 10:33 pm

I imagine Mesa has dropped their rates to guarantee revenue from someone to replace US Airways. But, DL surprises me. DL has always had high standards. I guess everything goes when you are bleeding money.
We Are UNITED!
 
avek00
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Wed May 04, 2005 10:34 pm

Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 1):
But, DL surprises me. DL has always had high standards.

ASA (particularly the ATL operation) does not fit the definition of "high standards" in any way, shape, or form.
Live life to the fullest.
 
BNAflyer78
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Wed May 04, 2005 10:41 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Thread starter):
Its almost now a certain that Mesa is out over at USAirways with Republic & Air Wisconsin providing financial backing.

What's the status on US and Air Wisconsin and is Mesa definitely out as a future US Express carrier?
Long live the Widget!
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Wed May 04, 2005 10:53 pm

And I was always proud of Delta for keeping things simple, with never more than 4 Connection carriers (Skywest, ASA and Comair as constant carriers, with the fourth being (in order) Business Express, Trans States, ACA), and now, they will have 6 (ASA, Comair, Skywest, Chautauqua, Mesa dba Freedom Air and American Eagle (LAX only), 7 if you count Chautauqua and Republic as different airlines.
It will also be interesting to see where Mesa will base their aircraft for Delta.
One thing I'm wondering about: I thought Freedom Air was a CR7/CR9-only operator, because they were cheaper than Mesa would be, and now they use CR2s? Somehow I don't understand that.
 
azjubilee
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Wed May 04, 2005 11:18 pm

Because Mesa is a bottom feeding airline that prostitutes themselves to the mailine carriers, they operate at costs below that of other "regional" airlines. That being said, it becomes economical for Delta to allocate a CRJ operated by Mesa on routes previously flown by the Dornier 328. If Comair, ASA or Chautauqua operated 50 seat planes on route previously operated by 34 seat planes it wouldn't make financial sense. But with Mesa being the cheap harlots they are, led by the evil Lorenzo-esque Orenstein these routes will be economical operated by a larger capasity airline.

IMO these planes will be based in CVG and or BOS. Reason being is that's where the 328s were based flying short hops to thin markets that were perfect for a 34 seat jet.

THis is bad news for the folks at Comair and especially ASA. It just goes to show the vulnerability of a wholly owned carrier in this messed up industry. The worst part is that ASA is in pilot negotiations and references to Mesa, if not already done so, WILL be made. "If Mesa flies the CRJ for this much... why can't you?"

Good luck to all at DCI... and Delta.


AZJ
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Wed May 04, 2005 11:58 pm

Im wondering what the implications will be at Comair and ASA as well. This has got to be a slap in the face to them. Why buy them in the first place? Specifically at Comair, just about all the employees gave concessions to allow the company to take more aircraft..yet more flying has been awarded to someone else...again...and MESA at that! Comair/ALPA has got to be pretty hot about this. Finally, what the hell does Delta need with 380 crj's? Is that not overkill? Will they have mainline jets flying anywhere? Just my two cents!
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 12:03 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 6):
Finally, what the hell does Delta need with 380 crj's? Is that not overkill?

Well, something has to replace their 48 732s, 26 733s and 15 762s.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 6):
Will they have mainline jets flying anywhere?

Only to Florida  Wink .
 
luv2fly
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 12:14 am

Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 1):
But, DL surprises me. DL has always had high standards. I guess everything goes when you are bleeding money.

I think this is one of the main thinks that is plaguing the major airlines right now. The farming out of all these flights being operated by another party of your behalf. You have no idea of the quality being offered or lack of it being offered all in your name.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 12:17 am

I agree.. look at AA and CO... they own (or CO still has a large stake in ExpressJet) and they are doing well with their regionals. Even US own over half of their regionals.. Who knows what this will bring about, but it will be nice to see as time progresses..
Aiming High and going far..
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 12:18 am

DL is my preferred airline. I usually only fly them, I work for them (but not employed by them). I wish them the best, but I don't think they are moving in the right direction and I think management is largely to blame.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
GroundStop
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 12:51 am

Delta never ceases to amaze me. Here they've said over and over that they want to get back to good customer service, yet they've now brought the absolute worst regional airline into their operation. I have some good friends over at ASA. Good luck to them.

JP
 
flyboyaz
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 1:56 am

What I'm wondering about is the Freedom Airlines thing. They shut them down last year supposedly. I figured they would bring it back for some reason. The mainline Mesa employees hated that division...can't bode well.
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ERJ170
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 1:59 am

Are these 30 CRJ being pulled from somewhere or are they new orders?
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av8rphx
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 2:18 am

What I'm wondering about is the Freedom Airlines thing. They shut them down last year supposedly. I figured they would bring it back for some reason. The mainline Mesa employees hated that division...can't bode well.

All of the CRJ-900s were removed from the Freedom certificate late last year, however, JO has now put a single Beech on the F8 cert. It has been running PHXHIIIGM runs for the last few months. Freedom is now part of M.A.G but the stigma from the whole previous F8 fiasco still is there....
 
Murf
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 2:20 am

Are you guys sure this is the end of Mesa at Us Airways? I'm reading that they are going to be flying CRJ's for Delta, but I thought that they flew ERJ's for US Airways. Could this be new aircraft and new growth?

Murf
 
av8rphx
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 2:23 am

We have both the CRJ and ERJ in the USX system currently.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 2:49 am

What about what's up with Comair? Are they still getting the E70 and putting them in service by 3rd Qtr this year? Is Mesa just taking over for Skywest? From what I thought, Comair and ASA had taken over the ACA routes.. does this mean Mesa will be replacing Comair and ASA on those routes also?
Aiming High and going far..
 
LAXintl
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
Are these 30 CRJ being pulled from somewhere or are they new orders?

Now that is the interesting point about this deal. The deal mentions "up to 30" CRJ200s.


According to Mesa's lates 10Q/8K reports, it operates only 56, 50 seat CRJ100/200 aircraft, with zero additional aircraft on order.

All of these aircraft are under long term commitments to United(15), US Airways(23) and America West(18). Only the America West agreement currently allows the draw down if aircraft however not until 2007.

So unless Mesa is going to go out and acquire a large block of used aircraft (could be ex FLYi birds), these aircraft must be coming from a current operator.

Now how this plays into into the rumored US+HP tie up and any interest Mesa might have in the marriage??

It seems to me Mesa might be shying away, or atleast hedging its bets from a HP+US deal by diversifying its flying by placing aircraft with Delta.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
apodino
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 5:06 am

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't USAirways have the right to terminate their agreement with Mesa since the relationship was established prior to bankruptcy in the same way that United terminated theirs with Air Wisconsin. I would not be surprised to see the 23 CRJs with USAirways move over to Delta to help make room for some of Air Wisconsins planes. Air Wisconsin now sits on the board of USAirways and I think this is something they would want to do.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 5:15 am

Delta is the queen of the regional jet, and its one of the reasons why they are bleeding so much money. I can't imagine them picking up more CRJ flying...its crazy......
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
ScottB
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 5:46 am

I think people are reading too much into the fact that the CR2's would be flown at Freedom Air. My best guess is that this is being done to avoid DALPA scope clause violations since Mesa currently operates CR9's for America West. Since Freedom is technically a separate airline, there's no issue with a Delta Connection carrier operating jets with more than 70 seats, even in another airline's colors. Freedom was originally set up by Mesa to bust the pilots' union, but at this point the goal is to avoid violating Delta's scope clause.

My guess on the motivation behind this deal: Delta wants to make it tougher on US Airways to reorganize, and giving Mesa a place to fly some of its jets means that US management loses a bargaining chip in trying to force Mesa to invest in the reorganization and/or lower contract flying rates. I suspect that if Jon Ornstein were really bullish on US Airways' prospects, he would have put up the $100 million they claimed to need and/or agreed to buy PSA and its CR2/CR7 fleet. To me, this deal has the feel of the rats abandoning a sinking ship.
 
flyXJT
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 5:54 am

Looks like Skyway is screwed then, they were staffing themselves in preparation to takeover the DoJets for DL.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 18):
All of these aircraft are under long term commitments to United(15), US Airways(23) and America West(18). Only the America West agreement currently allows the draw down if aircraft however not until 2007.

I was under the impression that the CR2s for UA were just temporary until more CR7s arrived. Is this the case?
 
SESGDL
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 6:09 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 7):
Well, something has to replace their 48 732s, 26 733s and 15 762s.

Those aircraft are being retired over 4 years. DL will receive 48 737-800s between 2006-2007 if I remember correctly, so capacity shouldn't decrease. They're also increasing aircraft utilization which I'm sure you already knew.

Jeremy
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 6:24 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 24):
Those aircraft are being retired over 4 years.

With the way things are going, that might happen faster  Sad .

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 24):
DL will receive 48 737-800s between 2006-2007 if I remember correctly, so capacity shouldn't decrease.

36 in one year alone (not sure whether 2006 or 2007; dang it, I always forget their delivery schedule), but the question is whethe by then DL can afford those planes, or whether they have to lease/sell them immediately.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 24):
They're also increasing aircraft utilization which I'm sure you already knew.

Yup, by half an hour per day, with even more being possible if they further adjust their schedules (like reducing those freggin' long RONs at some LatAm destinations.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 6:38 am

If DL continues to lose $5.6 bn a year, I highly doubt we will see any 737s being delivered.  Wink
 
ouboy79
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 7:15 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 21):
My guess on the motivation behind this deal: Delta wants to make it tougher on US Airways to reorganize, and giving Mesa a place to fly some of its jets means that US management loses a bargaining chip in trying to force Mesa to invest in the reorganization and/or lower contract flying rates. I suspect that if Jon Ornstein were really bullish on US Airways' prospects, he would have put up the $100 million they claimed to need and/or agreed to buy PSA and its CR2/CR7 fleet. To me, this deal has the feel of the rats abandoning a sinking ship.

Or how about the other side...this opens US Airways up to reject the Mesa agreement finally and make room for AWAC? Either way Mesa will still be involved in HP/US (announcement expected soon)...so perhaps the US contract is more expensive than the HP agreement. Either way, I don't think any US employee/customer would feel terrible to see Mesa go away. LOL
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 7:16 am

Any chances for New routes, maybe DRO in the future?

What of DH2's, does the contract include options for a few of those as well?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
ScottB
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 27):
Or how about the other side...this opens US Airways up to reject the Mesa agreement finally and make room for AWAC?

US Airways already had the option of rejecting the Mesa agreement by virtue of the fact that it is in bankruptcy reorganization. They can cancel most (if not all) contracts with the approval of the bankruptcy judge. That's why AWAC put money into US Airways; UAL had informed them that their contract was subject to cancellation and that their flying was being put out to bid. So, no, this doesn't "open up" an option to UAIRQ; they already had that option.

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 27):
Either way Mesa will still be involved in HP/US (announcement expected soon)...so perhaps the US contract is more expensive than the HP agreement.

Well, they will likely remain involved with HP since they're still under a contract. The terms of that agreement are not up for renegotiation unless both sides agree to do so. As for a possible merger, I wouldn't count on it until all the papers are signed and the shareholders vote.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 20):
Delta is the queen of the regional jet, and its one of the reasons why they are bleeding so much money. I can't imagine them picking up more CRJ flying...its crazy......

While I agree that 380 CRJ's in the DL Conx system is quite rediculous...so is your above statement. Fuel is probably the biggest reason, with poor management a close second. Flying a lot of RJ's is certainly not the cause.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 8:51 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 30):
so is your above statement.

notice in my statement I said ".......its ONE of the reasons..."

I never said it was the only reason.

Also, fuel, poor management, and RJ's go hand in hand.

It was poor management to create a network with so many RJ's.

Fuel costs are magnified with RJ's, since they have the highest fuel per pax rates of any aircraft.

DL has many problems, and adding more RJ's is not going to do anything to help them.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
Piedmontbrat
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 8:53 am

All I can say is:

"Warning, Will Robinson, Warning!"

Mesa getting involved with Delta spells disaster. Mesa has been a horrible regional carrier for US Airways and I can't imagine them bringing anything but bad service to Delta.

I would hope that someone at Delta would reconsider this move before it's too late!
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 8:59 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 31):
Also, fuel, poor management, and RJ's go hand in hand.

It was poor management to create a network with so many RJ's.

Fuel costs are magnified with RJ's, since they have the highest fuel per pax rates of any aircraft.

DL has many problems, and adding more RJ's is not going to do anything to help them.

Points taken. All things considered, I think we agree that more RJ's for DL is not a good thing for pax or for their balance sheet...especially if they're being flown by that whorehouse known as Freedon Airlines. I never thought I'd see the day.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 33):
All things considered, I think we agree that more RJ's for DL is not a good thing for pax or for their balance sheet...especially if they're being flown by that whorehouse known as Freedon Airlines.

While it definitely isn't good for pax, it should be good for DL's balance sheet, simply because the employees (especially the pilots) at Freedom Airlines work for very low rates, which mean that DL not only has to pay lower prices to Mesa than for CHQ or SKY, but that they can also put pressure on ASA and COM employees to get them to accept lower wages to be competitive and not lose too much flying to Mesa, and should those cuts get accepted, it could save DL some big bucks.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 33):
I never thought I'd see the day.

Me neither, but in this industry nothing is impossible.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:08 am

So then will the "reincarnated" F8 be based out of SLC?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 34):
While it definitely isn't good for pax, it should be good for DL's balance sheet, simply because the employees (especially the pilots) at Freedom Airlines work for very low rates, which mean that DL not only has to pay lower prices to Mesa than for CHQ or SKY, but that they can also put pressure on ASA and COM employees to get them to accept lower wages to be competitive and not lose too much flying to Mesa, and should those cuts get accepted, it could save DL some big bucks.

I know pilots at both ASA and Comair...and I most certainly don't wish that on them. Moreover, I think DL will have an exceptioanlly difficult time getting Comair pilots to take more of a paycut (they already have taken concessions for the promise of more a/c) after all they went through (89 days) to get the current contract. ASA pilots are in contract negotiations right now IINM.

When I went to Riddle, I had every intention of graduating and being airline pilot, starting with one of those two carriers...but I minored in ATC and just got hired at NY ARTCC. I sure am glad for my minor! (sorry to go off-tpoic...had to vent!)
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 34):
it should be good for DL's balance sheet

What would have been really good for delta would to have limited their RJ presence at about 200 frames and picked up the slack by ordering 50-100 717's , EMB 190's , or 736's. Its all hindsight now though, and now DL is stuck with all the regional jets that they bought.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 35):
So then will the "reincarnated" F8 be based out of SLC?

Seeing as how the article mentions the CR2s as a replacement for the 328Jets (which makes no sense, as thos have been gone for over 6 months now), they will likely operate out of BOS and CVG.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:17 am

Ahh. New territory for Mesa hubwise then?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:19 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 37):
What would have been really good for delta would to have limited their RJ presence at about 200 frames and picked up the slack by ordering 50-100 717's

That would indeed have been nice, a true successor to the DC-9-30, operated on the same routes. But as we all know, it didn't happen, and it will never happen *sigh*.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:20 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 37):
What would have been really good for delta would to have limited their RJ presence at about 200 frames and picked up the slack by ordering 50-100 717's , EMB 190's , or 736's. Its all hindsight now though, and now DL is stuck with all the regional jets that they bought.

DL dragged its feet about a 100 seat a/c. I think the 717 would've probably been their best bet as the 736 is simply to heavy!
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:26 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 41):
DL dragged its feet about a 100 seat a/c. I think the 717 would've probably been their best bet as the 736 is simply to heavy!

717 would have also complemented the MD-90's well.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:44 am

Not to forget that prior to 9-11, DL was also close to ordering 45 73Gs, to replace the 54 732s flying for Delta Express. Needless to say, that order never materialized.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:48 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 43):
Not to forget that prior to 9-11, DL was also close to ordering 45 73Gs, to replace the 54 732s flying for Delta Express. Needless to say, that order never materialized.

What exactly was delta express?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:53 am

Source: DL's Annual Statement's footnotes (where all the skeletons are hidden)

DL will receive 32 to 44 CRJ-200s during 2005. I assume these are what Mesa will be flying. There is already financing in place for these new jets (looks like it was a part of the GECC financing deal, but it can be hard to tell)

I'd cut and paste, but the doc's in .pdf format. Footnotes 6 and 8 in the financials.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:54 am

Article sounds interesting... do you have a link?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 9:57 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 44):
What exactly was delta express?

Song's predecessor. DLX used to op from MCO, TPA, FLL, BOS, JFK, EWR, etc will 732's.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 10:06 am

Ahh cool thanks.

*filler*
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Mesa To Fly CRJ's For Delta Connection

Thu May 05, 2005 10:06 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 45):
DL will receive 32 to 44 CRJ-200s during 2005. I assume these are what Mesa will be flying. There is already financing in place for these new jets (looks like it was a part of the GECC financing deal, but it can be hard to tell)

No, this is actually the order DCI placed last year. 25 CRJs will go to ASA, and 7 to Skywest. The 30 Mesa CRJs will be added on top of that.