worldxplorer
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New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 12:32 am

With the new 16,000' runway well established, where is new international traffic that the runway was supposed to develop? Will Denver ever have more international carriers touching down?

Many people state the lack of O&D traffic to support non-stop flights to many destinations and that traffic is funneled through SFO, LAX, ORD, etc. But if that were the case why do the BA flights to LHR and LH flights to FRA do so well? Has there been any talk of other carriers looking at DEN? Anyway, I have ask enough questions.

I hope we see a NRT flight someday. If the point-to-point model proves to work with 787 perhaps we will see more Int'l service in DEN in the future.

WorldXplorer
 
PHX Flyer
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 12:37 am

Not that spectacular, but "international" nonetheless: United just applied for an exemption to serve Cozumel from Denver beginning next fall.
 
san747
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 12:39 am

Isn't there always a debate about whether NH is going to start 787 service to DEN when they get them? Not to open a can of worms here...
Scotty doesn't know...
 
AA B777-200
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 12:45 am

Maybe NW will start a DEN-AMS someday? Or LH/UA DEN-MUC?
 
as739x
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 12:50 am

Doubtful you will see NH flying a 787 to DEN. They will not have first class, therefor losing a lot of premium traffic on the route. Another reason its doubtful you'll see the NH 787 in the US. If NH started DEN, it would probably be a 777. I don't see the demand for NH in DEN.

Seems to me DEN is just in a bad geographic position for a lot of Int'l destinations. IMHO

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
jmy007
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
Seems to me DEN is just in a bad geographic position for a lot of Int'l destinations. IMHO

How so? What about Dallas for Tokyo, for PHX for London? I do not buy that argument.
Some UA flights to Asia start in Denver, then on to SFO etc.
Korean flew in here for a while, but as to why the dropped service, I do not know.
I think O+D numbers do not support more than a couple of European desentations, and perhaps Tokyo.

[Edited 2005-05-04 17:58:53]

[Edited 2005-05-04 17:59:39]
Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
 
bartond
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 1:02 am

I think you hit it on the head with the geography of DEN. DEN does pick up a bunch of traffic from surrounding states and althroughout the west, but it's mostly just to connect to other US cities. International travelers either use DEN to connect to SFO, ORD, or IAD, or fly straight to one of those international gateways and on from there.

Someone mentioned that Air India was considering DEN service in the future but I wouldn't think there would be a market for it. SFO seems a better choice. AF was mentioned a while back but they chose DTW for their new US gateway.
 
cx750
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 1:04 am

I think AS739X has a point: DEN is located between major UA hubs on both sides, esp. with respect to Japan flights. With AA, DFW does not have to compete with any of their own hubs and has a larger local market.
 
B742
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 1:07 am

I wish UA would start DEN-LHR-DEN!

Rob!
 
cx750
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 1:09 am

B742,

If UA starts DEN-London, it would have to go to LGW due to the US-UK bilateral agreement, and it would force BA to LGW as well (as I understand it).
 
as739x
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 1:18 am

Jmy007...

AA DFW-NRT....hes feed by many flights arriving from Mexico and Central/South America. United has almost "0" feed from Mexico and none from C./S. America into DEN. Matter of fact MEX-DEN you are routed via SFO or LAX.

Regarding BA PHX-LHR LH PHX-FRA...I am not saying that DEN is not going to get any service. But they have the same two PHX has. LH and BA, thats it! Just a niche.

I am just saying that for a city like Denver with United being thier main carrier, they have build international hubs from SFO and ORD, why start flights from DEN? There is a reason DEN - Asia flights go via SFO, Denver can't fill them up. I just don't see UA doing much, or any other airline. Not to mention with the vast co-sharing out there, city's like DEN and PHX will see less and less foreign carriers.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
jmy007
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 8):

Why? BA does it, and its better service than UA international.
Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
 
PBIflyguy
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 1:44 am

I have to research, but didn't Western fly Denver-London at one point? anybody able to confirm or deny?

THanks
 
cx750
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 10):
Regarding BA PHX-LHR LH PHX-FRA...I am not saying that DEN is not going to get any service. But they have the same two PHX has. LH and BA, thats it! Just a niche.

I believe LH has pulled out of PHX, and heard rumours that BA may reduce to 5x weekly from PHX.
 
MAH4546
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
Doubtful you will see NH flying a 787 to DEN. They will not have first class, therefor losing a lot of premium traffic on the route.

F-class demand is not big out of Denver. It is only big out of a very few gateways. British Airways does not have F-class on their flights to Denver.

Quoting AS739X (Reply 10):

Regarding BA PHX-LHR LH PHX-FRA...I am not saying that DEN is not going to get any service. But they have the same two PHX has. LH and BA, thats it! Just a niche.

Lufthansa no longer flies to Phoenix.
a.
 
citationjet
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting PBIflyguy (Reply 12):
I have to research, but didn't Western fly Denver-London at one point? anybody able to confirm or deny?

You are correct, Western started DEN to London service April 28, 1981. They used DC-10 "SpaceShips". The service lasted less than two years.

http://www.airchive.com/SITE%20PAGES/TIMETABLES-WESTERN.html
http://www.airchive.com/Timetables%2...Western%20Compressed/WAmap8104.jpg shows the timetable with London service.

[Edited 2005-05-04 19:06:50]
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
B742
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 2:08 am

Jmy007, I wish UA could fly this route, I'm not on about the ethics of the route I just wish UA would fly the route!

Rob!
 
COSPN
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 2:25 am

CO used to Fly SYD-HNL-DEN-LGW
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 2:59 am

Quoting Bartond (Reply 6):
Someone mentioned that Air India was considering DEN service in the future but I wouldn't think there would be a market for it.

That someone was me, and Denver's market to India has little to do with it.

Quoting AS739X (Reply 10):
But they have the same two PHX has. LH and BA

PHX no longer has LH.

Quoting Jmy007 (Reply 11):
Why? BA does it, and its better service than UA international.

UA cannot fly DEN-LHR because DEN is not one of the 14 permanently-approved Heathrow gateways as stipulated by the Bermuda II bilateral.

BA can fly the route because it recently served LGW from DEN and demonstrated sufficient USA-LON through-traffic from that gateway such as to invoke a dormant clause allowing the destination to be served from whichever London airport BA chooses.

Should any scheduled carrier (I'm not sure if BY's intention counts) begin DEN-LON, both that carrier and BA would have to revert back to Gatwick.

UA doesn't serve LGW, and has no intention of initiating thus; therefore, no intention of intitiating DEN-LON.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
AADC10
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 3:07 am

It is simply a matter of business demand. The size of the population of the metropolitan area is not as important as the number of businesses demanding international travel and most of those businesses tend to be around the edges of the country, not the middle.

The international travel demand at DEN is rising, but it is still tiny compared to LAX, SFO, SEA and even LAS. Places like DFW and IAH to not have huge numbers of international flights either. For the most part, international flights from the middle states (other than to Mexico and Canada) are driven by domestic airlines and if they decide to place their international flights elsewhere, only a handful of flag carriers are going there.
 
RNOcommctr
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 3:40 am

Quoting PBIflyguy (Reply 12):
I have to research, but didn't Western fly Denver-London at one point? anybody able to confirm or deny?

Yes, Western started Denver-London around 1980 in the heydays of post-deregulation; can't remember if it was to LHR or LGW. I remember, because the RNO executive director was invited to go on the inaugural flight. I was his rookie admininstrative assistant at the time and was kind of jealous. But I got over it when he let me represent him on the inaugural Golden West Metroliner flight from RNO-BOI.
 Angry  Angry  Angry
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 19):
IAH to not have huge numbers of international flights either

Let's see... Houston is the nation's premier gateway to Mexico; as well as current flights to:
Japan
Taiwan*
England
France
Germany
Pakistan*
Brazil
Colombia
Ecuador
Peru
Bolivia
Belize
Nicaragua
Honduras
Panama
various Caribbean destinations

...not to mention planned service to India, Egypt, Argentina, and the United Arab Emirates.... I'd say you're wrong  Wink


*1stop, same-plane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
as739x
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 3:55 am

So LH no longer flys PHX-FRA. This back my point ven more. LH mostly servives at DEN due to Star Alliance and United.

MAH4546: I'm just repeating something a NH employee stated when NH announced the 787 order. That no first class was in it, therefor doubtful it was going to DEN. Just cause there is no demad for First to Europe, doesn't mean there isn't to Asia.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
worldxplorer
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 18):
Quoting Bartond (Reply 6):Someone mentioned that Air India was considering DEN service in the future but I wouldn't think there would be a market for it.
That someone was me, and Denver's market to India has little to do with it.

ConcordeBoy, could you expand on that? What is AI's reasoning and have any timeframes been discussed?
 
ssides
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 19):
Places like DFW and IAH to not have huge numbers of international flights either.

They're not huge like JFK, LAX, ORD or SFO, but DFW and IAH have O&D numbers that are significantly higher than DEN.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
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mariner
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 1):
Not that spectacular, but "international" nonetheless: United just applied for an exemption to serve Cozumel from Denver beginning next fall.

United applied for DEN/CZM as well as Frontier?

Gosh, if that is the case, then wherever F9 goes in Mexico, UA seems certain to follow.

Except MZT. I wonder why that is.

 Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 5:53 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
Seems to me DEN is just in a bad geographic position for a lot of Int'l destinations. IMHO

It's Denver's relatively small population and demographics dictating international service in my opinion. The Denver metro has roughly 2.7 million people, and while this number in itself isn't low enough to preclude multiple international flights, the city lacks large ethnic communities that can support these flights. Vancouver for example has dozens of international flights with roughly 500,000 less people.
Keepin' it real.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 21):
Let's see... Houston is the nation's premier gateway to Mexico; as well as current flights to:
Japan
Taiwan*
England
France
Germany
Pakistan*
Brazil
Colombia
Ecuador
Peru
Bolivia
Belize
Nicaragua
Honduras
Panama
various Caribbean destinations

...not to mention planned service to India, Egypt, Argentina, and the United Arab Emirates.... I'd say you're wrong Wink


*1stop, same-plane

You forgot, Holland.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
COSPN
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RE: New Int'l Service To DEN?

Thu May 05, 2005 6:35 am

And Costa Rica LIR and SJO

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