LipeGIG
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Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Thu May 05, 2005 8:30 am

Iberia announced today in Brazil that service from MAD to GIG will be increased until the end of year from 4/5 flights per week to Daily.

As per Iberia's Director in Brazil, GIG presents a strong demand that could
operate the Daily Flight even today. The problem nowadays it's the agreement between Brazil and Spain but IB expect to solve this matter until
the end of year.

Regards,

Lipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Thu May 05, 2005 8:32 am

What aircraft will they use for this route?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Thu May 05, 2005 8:53 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 1):
What aircraft will they use for this route?

Iberia is using A340-300 or 600 in MAD-GIG. And always with high occupancy. .
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
PPVRA
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Thu May 05, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
Iberia is using A340-300 or 600 in MAD-GIG. And always with high occupancy. .

The -600 is used during Carnival only I believe.

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Thu May 05, 2005 9:16 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
The -600 is used during Carnival only I believe.

PPVRA,

I believe they will come back as per Iberia's website some flights during July and august will be made with 346. (see for example Aug, 13 MAD-GIG) .

Regards,

Lipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Fri May 06, 2005 2:50 am

IB currently flies:

- MAD-GRU A343 daily (GRU-ASU is operated by TAM);
- MAD-GIG 4/5 x week with the A343 (Dec-Mar and Jun-Jul IB uses A346).

AF, TP and IB are making good profits in their nonstop operations to GIG. GIG is currently more profitable for TP and AF than their daily operations in GRU. TP reported that GIG was the main driver for its growth in the Brazilian market in the First Quarter/05.

With the introduction of IB's daily flights MAD-GIG I also expect IB perform better on the GIG market as compared to GRU.

Rgs,
 
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SQ773
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Fri May 06, 2005 3:03 am

Well, that is good news , and also curious. Whether there is much demand for this route ( hopefully ) or IB wants Air Madrid out of the market, although the target passanger might be different.
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Fri May 06, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 6):
Whether there is much demand for this route ( hopefully ) or IB wants Air Madrid out of the market, although the target passanger might be different.

I'm sure there is demand for this route: just look at the amount of well paid Brazilian football player in Spain (just kidding). Spain is a major foreign investor in Brazil (top 5) and there are lots of Spanish business and regional HQ of Spanish companies in Rio de Janeiro.

The fact that TP showed a strong performance in the GIG market demonstrates that IB could also have good results with its daily flights. GIG is much more comfortable than GRU, quicker immigration and customs, and more onward domestic connections in Brazil, especially Northeast Brazil destinations.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 6):
or IB wants Air Madrid out of the market, although the target passanger might be different.

Target passenger is different, you cannot compare. Btw, Air Europa is also doing well with its 3 x week MAD-SSA nonstop B763.

Rgs,
 
Southamerica
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Fri May 06, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 6):
Whether there is much demand for this route ( hopefully ) or IB wants Air Madrid out of the market

Air Madrid is already out of the market. GIG is no longer listed among the company's destinations.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Fri May 06, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
I'm sure there is demand for this route: just look at the amount of well paid Brazilian football player in Spain (just kidding). Spain is a major foreign investor in Brazil (top 5) and there are lots of Spanish business and regional HQ of Spanish companies in Rio de Janeiro.

The fact that TP showed a strong performance in the GIG market demonstrates that IB could also have good results with its daily flights. GIG is much more comfortable than GRU, quicker immigration and customs, and more onward domestic connections in Brazil, especially Northeast Brazil destinations.

Perfect Hardiwv. GIG is really getting "life" as Hub. I heard from IB that GIG market even today needs a daily flight and that for most flights on July/September they are facing very high occupancy rates (even business). Rio's market is expect to exceed GRU (today's GIG with 4/5 flights is more profitable than GRU) in both profit and pax after the daily flight as well as they think that the route will demand the A340-600 despite they will keep the A340-300 for GRU.
Varig is also increasing GIG flights as they do not confirm the operation of the 3x week B767-300 after July 31. They start to use B777-200 6 times GIG-GRU-LIS and 1 weekly GIG-LIS (non stop on Saturdays). TP and RG operations to GIG in July are fully in several days (even with 2 direct flights) and RG and TP shows large availability for GRU in the same period.
Daylight RG's GIG-MIA during July is another signal. Hope they can find additional aircrafts to increase GIG-FRA service as they said on Monday that one of Varig's priorities is to increase non stop service from GIG.
BRA will start regular operations in the middle June and several flights nowadays in GRU will be placed in CGH-SDU and GIG, increasing connections.

Regards,

Lipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Southamerica
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Fri May 06, 2005 12:10 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
The fact that TP showed a strong performance in the GIG market demonstrates that IB could also have good results with its daily flights.

No, Hardi, it doesn't. It's impossible to put both markets on the same comparative level. Brazil's condition of portuguese ex-colony makes it impossible to pretend that both routes' demographics/traffic are the same.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
TP and RG operations to GIG in July are fully in several days (even with 2 direct flights) and RG and TP shows large availability for GRU in the same period.

I believe it's not adequate to judge profitabilty/unprofitabily based on information published by international reservation systems, in case you are doing so. Even though it's possible to draw a general idea of load factors out of it, it is known that not always the data shown in these terms is not fully accurate.

It say so because it's not the first time.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Fri May 06, 2005 12:22 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 10):
I believe it's not adequate to judge profitability/unprofitable based on information published by international reservation systems, in case you are doing so. Even though it's possible to draw a general idea of load factors out of it, it is known that not always the data shown in these terms is not fully accurate.

Agree with you SOUTHAMERICA. Info was given by the VP in an event in Sao Paulo few days ago (RG) and an internal source of TP. Reservation Systems shows (as the name says) reserves and ticket effective issued. At the system probably you will get planes full in many dates but the info given included only confirmed and effective.

Regards,

Lipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Southamerica
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Fri May 06, 2005 12:41 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
At the system probably you will get planes full in many dates but the info given included only confirmed and effective.

Addionally, not always all seats available in the airplane are opened for sale.


SOUTHAMERICA
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Fri May 06, 2005 4:26 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 10):
No, Hardi, it doesn't. It's impossible to put both markets on the same comparative level. Brazil's condition of portuguese ex-colony makes it impossible to pretend that both routes' demographics/traffic are the same.

SOUTHAMERICA: yes, it is possible, because I also mentioned AF as an example.

It is well known and disseminated that AF is doing better in GIG as compared to GRU (and Brazil was not a French ex-colony!). TP, for the first time in years, performed better in GIG as compared to GRU (1Q results. I'm sure that IB's decision to increase flights to GIG to daily is also based on meaningful statistics. The fact that IB uses the A346 to GRU and not to GIG is another indicator.

Rgs,


Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Sat May 07, 2005 10:30 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
The fact that IB uses the A346 to GRU and not to GIG is another indicator.

Hardiwv,

Allows me a little correction. IB uses the A346 to GIG and not to GRU. All the rest 100% perfect as for ALL European carriers flying non stop to GIG and GRU, GIG is much better market than GRU.

Regards,

Lipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Sat May 07, 2005 10:35 am

Wasn't Air Madrid trying to get permission for more weekly roundtrips on this route before it left the market?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Sat May 07, 2005 10:57 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
Wasn't Air Madrid trying to get permission for more weekly roundtrips on this route before it left the market?

Yes. But as a charter flight, Brazilian DAC only authorized Air Madrid to sell
about 60 tickets GIG-MAD (25% of one A330-200). Then, Air Madrid cancel
the flight to GIG.

Regards
Lipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Southamerica
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Sat May 07, 2005 2:59 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
Yes, it is possible, because I also mentioned AF as an example.

It's still not possible to compare... see below...

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
It is well known and disseminated that AF is doing better in GIG as compared to GRU (and Brazil was not a French ex-colony!).

That proves practically nothing. It has been also pretty disseminated and well-known that among European airlines, AF is one of the carriers [if not the carrier] with the most flexible fleet of all, making possible an efficient yield-extraction based on each market's weaknesses/strengths. Plus they offer much superior connection opportunities in their CDG hub than IB in MAD, let alone TP in LIS. No wonder they are doing so fine in GIG.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 14):
IB uses the A346 to GIG and not to GRU.

The A346 are deployed to A343 destinations when demand is worth it. GRU has seen the A346 as much as GIG, in hot-travelling periods.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Sat May 07, 2005 4:51 pm

SOUTHAMERICA:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 17):
that among European airlines, AF is one of the carriers [if not the carrier] with the most flexible fleet of all, making possible an efficient yield-extraction based on each market's weaknesses/strengths

So why doesnt AF explore more the weakness and strengths of GRU? Sorry, your words were all empty and did not explain anything.

For me things are crystal clear: AF performs better in GIG rather than in GRU because GIG generates more profit, generates more traffic in a balanced way with business and economy class full. GRU can manage to full AF's business class, but with poor loads in economy.

It is a fact that airlines are doing better in GIG as compared to other years: AF and TP operations in GIG outperformed their GRU operations (the same for RG GIG-FRA as compared to GRU-FRA).

As I stated, IB decision to increase GIG to daily is yet another demonstration that GIG has increasingly become more attractive market.


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Rgs,
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Sat May 07, 2005 5:43 pm

Now is official, IB goes daily nonstop to GIG as of 01 November/05:

IB6803 MAD-GIG Dep. 01h45 Arrive 08h05
IB6802 GIG-MAD Dep. 16h00 Arrive 05h45


Both flights are red-eye which will make IB very competitive in the GIG-Europe market (TP operates one leg daylight; AF operates both legs red-eye).

Rgs,
 
richardw
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Sat May 07, 2005 6:36 pm

Will these flights get a BA code? Strange that there are no direct flights from LON-GIG. 1 stop in GRU is not direct.
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Sat May 07, 2005 6:55 pm

Quoting Richardw (Reply 20):
Will these flights get a BA code?

I'm not sure, but I guess no. BA still flies daily to GRU and 3 x week LHR-GRU-GIG, all with the B747. RG flies daily LHR-GRU-GIG with the B777.

Quoting Richardw (Reply 20):
Strange that there are no direct flights from LON-GIG. 1 stop in GRU is not direct.

RG and BA flights to GIG are direct (but not nonstop) - there is no change of aircraft in GRU, therefore, the flight is direct. As such, there are 10 x week flight LHR-GIG direct.

Virgin announced last year its itention to start flight LON-GIG nonstop. GIG was included in VS "wish list" released last year, VS is expected to launch flights to GIG in 2006.

Rgs,
 
richardw
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Sat May 07, 2005 7:08 pm

A non stopping direct flight on VS LHR-GIG hopefully in time for the next carnival sounds very good to me.

Since all BA flights LON-MAD have IB codes, this gives more choice for Londoners.
 
Southamerica
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Sun May 08, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
So why doesnt AF explore more the weakness and strengths of GRU? Sorry, your words were all empty and did not explain anything.

Probably because there are other destinations higher in their priority-list. In order to maximize GRU's potential as a powerful business-traffic generator, the logical step would be to upgrade Sao Paulo to their top-deluxe 773 product. Those are currently being used in other flagship routes.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
For me things are crystal clear: AF performs better in GIG rather than in GRU because GIG generates more profit, generates more traffic in a balanced way with business and economy class full. GRU can manage to full AF's business class, but with poor loads in economy.

Could be, but nothing is so certain as to be called "cristal clear", unless the company itself confirms it. You absolutely forgot about AF's L'Espace Premier, in which GRU should also be a strong player.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
As I stated, IB decision to increase GIG to daily is yet another demonstration that GIG has increasingly become more attractive market.

Possibly, but the arguments/comparisons you used for stating the above are not convincing.

AF, TP and IB offer different products, from different markets, from different hubs under different traffic conditions. I don't see how the fact that one of them is doing fine in Rio can asure that the others will do so too.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Sun May 08, 2005 8:20 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 23):
Probably because there are other destinations higher in their priority-list. In order to maximize GRU's potential as a powerful business-traffic generator, the logical step would be to upgrade Sao Paulo to their top-deluxe 773 product. Those are currently being used in other flagship routes.

Only for info Air France HQ in Brazil is located in Rio. Rio's 747-400 service launch at Brazil the new classes as well as the world's first new Vip space (before GRU and even CDG).
Air France all the times announce GIG as the main Brazilian market (even business) as well as they dont face TAM and Varig at GIG. Last year with the same Aircraft (A340 vs 777 until nov/01 when AF introduces the 744) GIG represents 53% of total pax and the GRU 777 was bigger than the A340!)
Note: 391 seats B744 against 270 (more 44%). How many C class at GIG ? 71 ! to GRU less than 60. Sorry but there is no way to compare AF operations in Brazil and GIG is in fact big and better for AF. Rio is not only touristic destination for AF pax: L'oreal, France Telecom, Meridien, Intelig, Peugeot-Citroen, Biolab Merieux, Lafarge, EDF, Total Petroleo, Essilor, Michelin, Sanofi Synthelabo, Thales, Ingerop, Bureau Veritas, Brasflex, Vallourec, Servier, Turbomeca, as well as connection to SJC (Embraer HQ where EADS has a minor share participation). All this French corps have Brazilian HQ or main operations in Rio. French investments in Brazil are 42% located in Rio.
Plane full is signal of a strong market (and AF said that 744 will stay in CDG-GIG route due to the fact of high occupancy all the year, load factor exceeds 85% while GRU hits 83%).
AF can introduce the 773 at GRU but will not help to exceed GIG profits. Prices are the same but GRU is 230 miles far (needs more fuel). 777 saves
fuel , okay... but the revenue of a 744 is at least 40% higher.

AF announces 744 at time of domestic traffic has been transferred from SDU to GIG and it was one of the reasons for the improvement. They believe (right) that GIG will receive VIX, PLU (now CNF) and even part of BSB traffic.
Last time i spoke with AF's senior management they wont expect that 744 exceed their expectations. Now GIG is becoming largest in domestic traffic than GRU (which means more connections available) and Rio de Janeiro is the top destination for Congress and Seminars in Latin America (ranked 15 in the world) which brings to Rio more than 45,000 additional pax.

GRU is bigger than GIG and especially for South America and United States it have much more service (GIG is poor in terms of South America connections). But in terms of Europe, there is not a big difference. Why ? Immigration. Rio is the largest Portuguese, spanish and French communities in Brazil. Italians and Japanese prefer São Paulo, Germans the south. Latin America countries are establishing their communities in Sao Paulo as this is a new direction (due to the fact that Sao Paulo is the biggest economy today, same situation in the past faced by Rio de Janeiro which brings more Europeans in 1940/1960).

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 23):
AF, TP and IB offer different products, from different markets, from different hubs under different traffic conditions. I don't see how the fact that one of them is doing fine in Rio can asure that the others will do so too.

Only AF in my oppion shows a different product. AF sells GIG-CDG as "The Connection Flight to Europe". Others (IB and TP) target is only O&D Rio de Janeiro. But the three saw the real and strong opportunity GIG represents and every action they take (change A340 for 744, increase flights, announce code-share with RG for additional flights) is a strong confirmation that GIG is really high profitable. TAP for example can use its A340 for SSA-LIS if they realize that GIG is not a good market, changing it for the A310. AF in the same way will try to use not the biggest plane they have but a small one don't you think ? Why i increase flights to one city 400km far from my established base ? Why don't start a code-share GIG-GRU and transfer my little 744 to GRU and establish a second flight GRU-CDG (same as JJ) ?
The fact is that Rio de Janeiro is a big city and with several troubles (violence) accounts for more than 20% of Brazilian savings (14% GDP) and it's int'l airport is the biggest (in terms of capacity / area) and comfortable ( the only with 2 runways which can be simultaneously operated). Who never lost at least 10 minutes to take off ? Or 10 minutes only to be removed from the gate ? Or worst, two hours at Customs / Immigration ?
Planes goes where Pax are... but pax goes where they have the top comfort!

Regards,

Lipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Mon May 09, 2005 3:22 am

Lipe:

I see this is your 31st post and I have not welcome you yet! Welcome to A.net, you have been a great Brazilian addition to this forum. I very much value your interesting inputs.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 23):
Probably because there are other destinations higher in their priority-list.

With 14 weekly flight to Brazil (+ 7 from KLM!), and AF's expressed wish to increase flights even further to Brazil through a revised bilateral, I'm sure they do have some level of interest in Brazil. 21 weekly flights is reasonable amount of flights I assume.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 23):
unless the company itself confirms it.

AF, TP and IB confirmed the importance of GIG, stating that the route generates more profit as compared to GRU.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 23):
I don't see how the fact that one of them is doing fine in Rio can asure that the others will do so too.

I mentioned a list of indicators, further enhanced by Lipe's replies, that GIG is becoming more attractive market. If IB, AF and TP all post unprecedented growth in GIG could well represent a positive sign; that domestic pax traffic is increasing and will soon overcome GRU is yet another positive indicator.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
Only for info Air France HQ in Brazil is located in Rio. Rio's 747-400 service launch at Brazil the new classes as well as the world's first new Vip space (before GRU and even CDG).

Tks for this reminder, Lipe!

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
Note: 391 seats B744 against 270 of GRU (GIG has 44% more seats). How many C class at GIG? 71, and in GRU 60.

Interesting statistics which put in perspective AF's operations in GRU versus GIG.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
. But the three saw the real and strong opportunity GIG represents and every action they take (change A340 for 744, increase flights, announce code-share with RG for additional flights) is a strong confirmation that GIG is really high profitable

Agree with you. The positive results of IB, TP and AF are indeed a strong performance indicator that airlines could carve out a market in GIG.

Quoting Richardw (Reply 22):
A non stopping direct flight on VS LHR-GIG hopefully in time for the next carnival sounds very good to me.

I hope VS materialises the nonstop flight to GIG by early 2006. VS's expression of interest to start nonstop flights to GIG is yet another
strong indicator of GIG increasing solidification in the market. [VS is holding conversations with JJ to codeshare the flight and provide domestic onward connections].

Rgs,

[Edited 2005-05-08 20:33:39]
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Mon May 09, 2005 10:26 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 25):
Lipe:

I see this is your 31st post and I have not welcome you yet! Welcome to A.net, you have been a great Brazilian addition to this forum. I very much value your interesting inputs.

Thanks Hardi, i can say now that i'm learning too much here. I realize that each one here has the capacity or the knowledge of something that can improve everyones knowledge. I expect i can help all. And in your next trip to Brazil let's drink a lot of "chops" in front of Ipanema !

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 25):
With 14 weekly flight to Brazil (+ 7 from KLM!), and AF's expressed wish to increase flights even further to Brazil through a revised bilateral, I'm sure they do have some level of interest in Brazil. 21 weekly flights is reasonable amount of flights I assume.

Agree. And France is close to Germany, Netherlands, Spain and Italy, all of them served directly and non stop from Brazil. There are more opportunities in Rio/GIG as there are no non stop flights for Italy, UK and Netherlands. So Paris can be a connection hub for GIG in terms of Europe. The advantages of a second flight to GIG (for example):
1) More connections to Europe and Asia (even Japan and China), Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and UK.
2) Use the same staff
3) Strong the brand Air France in Rio
4) Can be more aggressive with large Tourist operators
5) Crews prefers Rio de Janeiro (me too)
6) Do not face competition, and avoid a new comer at GIG-CDG (even RG).
7) Airport is full of open slots.
8) Large domestic connections (need a strong code-share from GIG)

Regards,
Lipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Southamerica
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Mon May 09, 2005 11:02 am

Very interesting discussion I must say... Thanks for posting your comments guys [Felipe and Hardi]... It's always interesting to see the same panorama from different perspectives.


Felipe:

Your reply 24 is sure full of interesting information and peculiar facts that I did not know. I respect your point of view, so I won't comment much on it; I just have a couple of points to review...

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
Note: 391 seats B744 against 270 (more 44%). How many C class at GIG ? 71 ! to GRU less than 60.

I'm not familiar to the 744's configuration under AF; but it's a fact that GRU sees the ultra-premium L'Espace Première [First Class] product on the 777s. Does GIG do also?

I tried to book a flight from CDG to GIG on AF, and they said that First Class was not available on such route; that's a point worth considering guys.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
AF can introduce the 773 at GRU but will not help to exceed GIG profits.

I wouldn't dare to be so sure about that. The 77Ws offer quite a large capacity in the premium cabins [both First and Business], and GRU has plenty of potential to fill them.



Hardi:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 25):
With 14 weekly flight to Brazil (+ 7 from KLM!), and AF's expressed wish to increase flights even further to Brazil through a revised bilateral, I'm sure they do have some level of interest in Brazil. 21 weekly flights is reasonable amount of flights I assume.

I never said they didn't have interest towards Brazil, but a look at AF/KL's presence to Japan, the United States or to Canada should give you an idea of what I meant.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 25):
AF, TP and IB confirmed the importance of GIG, stating that the route generates more profit as compared to GRU.

I know Hardi, you got me wrong. I was referring as to excatly why is GIG so profitable, such answer should only be cristal clear once the company itself confirms it.

_____________________________________________

Don't get me wrong guys, my intention is not to disacredit GIG's power as the market it is, but to create an active discussion based on true arguments... until now, it's going just fine.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Mon May 09, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 27):
Very interesting discussion I must say... Thanks for posting your comments guys [Felipe and Hardi]... It's always interesting to see the same panorama from different perspectives.

Same opinion SOUTHAMERICA. Thanks for the improvement on this discussion.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 27):
I'm not familiar to the 744's configuration under AF; but it's a fact that GRU sees the ultra-premium L'Espace Première [First Class] product on the 777s. Does GIG do also?

I saw the same info, GIG actually does not offer the L'espace Première (besides the press release pre-744 stats they will). But i have to check GRU's
AF 772 configuration again with AF (tomorow by phone) as well as 744. But note that as per AF info even with F class, the 744 offer more high yield C than GRU's C/F. But i will confirm this info ok !

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 27):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
AF can introduce the 773 at GRU but will not help to exceed GIG profits.

I wouldn't dare to be so sure about that. The 77Ws offer quite a large capacity in the premium cabins [both First and Business], and GRU has plenty of potential to fill them.

It's okay, i agree with you. But they face strong competition at GRU (JJ and RG both with strong products C/F class) while not in GIG. And there is more: GIG-CDG is a connecting flight. An aircraft with more than 70 high yield seats and not facing competition is incredible nowadays. (Same situation of AA's 904 GIG-MIA, always full at C)

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 27):
Don't get me wrong guys, my intention is not to disacredit GIG's power as the market it is, but to create an active discussion based on true arguments... until now, it's going just fine.

That's okay. SOUTHAMERICA my opinion is that people dont know in general the GIG and Rio de Janeiro potential as GRU is growing year after year. It's good to know that you bring this discussions, it help us to improve A.net discussions quality.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2302
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Mon May 09, 2005 12:18 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 28):
But i have to check GRU's AF 772 configuration again with AF (tomorow by phone) as well as 744.

I'm absolutely positive that the 777s [both -200s and -300s] are configured with First and Business. I believe the 777-200ERs used to GRU have 8 L'Espace Premìère cabins. I'm doubtful about the 744s.



SOUTHA.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Mon May 09, 2005 4:45 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 27):
It's always interesting to see the same panorama from different perspectives.

Same here. I also very much respect your opinion...if there were no different views this forum would be so boring...so tks for your (diverging) contribution, it only adds to the discussion and makes it more interesting!

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 29):
I'm absolutely positive that the 777s [both -200s and -300s] are configured with First and Business. I believe the 777-200ERs used to GRU have 8 L'Espace Premìère cabins. I'm doubtful about the 744s.

You are correct: GRU gets L'Espace Premiere while GIG only gets Economy and Biz.

AF's configuration is very confusing, and amazing enough some of AF's B747s (including the one operated to GIG) have Biz class on the upper deck which is used for Economy Class pax (you pay Economy get Economy service and fly with AF's old Biz seat) - these seats are usually reserved for upper tier FFs.

Felipe: I think AF is not offering 70 Business seats to GIG, but only about 20. AF's B747 have business seats on the nose of the aircraft + upper deck, and AF only market business seats on the nose for GIG. AF does the same on other routes with the B747 such as MRU. As I said above, the Biz seats on the upper deck are sold as economy.

I wont even go to First Class, something airlines in Brazil nowadays can only market in GRU. GIG has no demand for First Class and, indeed, limited demand for Biz. GRU is not match for GIG yet. However, there have been some positive development in GIG market after the SDU-GIG relocation.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 26):
And in your next trip to Brazil let's drink a lot of "chops" in front of Ipanema !

Felipe...your invitation is already accepted...and it wont take long!  Smile
Which "Posto" are we going? 9?

Rgs,
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Mon May 09, 2005 11:53 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 29):
I believe the 777-200ERs used to GRU have 8 L'Espace Premìère cabins. I'm doubtful about the 744s.

Actually it has 12 seats; here if the configuration of AF's B772ER to GRU:

First Class: 12
Business Class: 56
Economy: 202

Rgs,
 
Southamerica
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Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Tue May 10, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):
AF's configuration is very confusing, and amazing enough some of AF's B747s (including the one operated to GIG) have Biz class on the upper deck which is used for Economy Class pax

Yes, it's a bit strange at first, but when you see it closely you can easily draw the logic out of it. As I said earlier, it is due to such diversity in interior configurations that AF's fleet is the most flexible and best-suited among European carriers for maximizing each market's strenghts.

The A340-300s don't even have L'Espace Première at all, perfectly made for lower-density destinations which can fill Economy, have a slight demand for Business, but cannot support First [e.g BOG].

My perception was that GIG could be classified under the above description, with the difference that Rio demands much larger capacity for both cargo and Economy class, hence the use of 744s. An AF 777 deployed to GIG would, therefore, kill the market's magic.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Tue May 10, 2005 2:02 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):
Felipe: I think AF is not offering 70 Business seats to GIG, but only about 20. AF's B747 have business seats on the nose of the aircraft + upper deck, and AF only market business seats on the nose for GIG. AF does the same on other routes with the B747 such as MRU. As I said above, the Biz seats on the upper deck are sold as economy.

I spoke with AF today: 41 C class are oferred at GIG-CDG. During summer june/august they intend to increase to 58.

That's the press release in portuguese before the 744 start service:

"....O Boeing 747-400 da Air France possui uma cabine exclusiva reservada à l'Espace Première, ou Primeira Classe, situada na parte dianteira da aeronave, abaixo da cabine de pilotagem. Este espaço compreende 13 poltronas-camas. A classe l'Espace Affaires, ou Classe Executiva, comporta 58 assentos, distribuídos em duas cabines, sendo uma delas situada no andar superior, dando ao passageiro a impressão de estar a bordo de um avião particular. Os 321 assentos da classe Tempo ou Classe Econômica estão distribuídos em 3 cabines...." .. seems to be downgraded...

So 392 with the Business todays size probably nowadays we can add at least more 10 seats as the coach class seat takes less space.
Even with 392 , there are 41 C class (there is no availability until next monday, except for wed) at the same GRU prices. But 351 Y versus 202. 149 additional seats versus 14 C (Y * 3) and 12 F (Y * 5). I keep my opinion , GIGs revenue is larger and profitability probably too as the load factor for GIG is higher than GRU.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):
GIG has no demand for First Class and, indeed, limited demand for Biz.

I called AF call center. Biz is full until next monday (except wed). First Class demand: Yes there is, but not as large as GRU. Remember: Rio accounts for more than 40% of Freench investments in Brazil (Larger companies in Rio: EDF/Light, Peugeot/Citroen and L'Oreal. In SP: Rhone Poulenc, Casino/Pao de Acucar and Carrefour) as well as competition in GRU is stronger (all with C/F classes).

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):
Felipe...your invitation is already accepted...and it wont take long!
Which "Posto" are we going? 9?

Yes, good choice, "Posto" 9! Deal !

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Tue May 10, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 33):
41 C class are oferred at GIG-CDG. During summer june/august they intend to increase to 58.

This is what I said. AF markets some of the biz seats as economy (all the upper deck which has biz seats are sold as economy), this is common practice to many routes served with AF's B747.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 33):
I keep my opinion , GIGs revenue is larger and profitability probably too as the load factor for GIG is higher than GRU.

There is no doubt that AF performs better in GIG as compared to GRU. I totally agree with you. However, in general terms (all airlines), GRU is far ahead of GIG, although GIG has showed some important progress after the SDU-GIG relocation.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 33):
Yes, good choice, "Posto" 9!

Deal!

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Iberia Will Increase GIG-MAD Service

Tue May 10, 2005 8:10 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 34):
There is no doubt that AF performs better in GIG as compared to GRU. I totally agree with you. However, in general terms (all airlines), GRU is far ahead of GIG, although GIG has showed some important progress after the SDU-GIG relocation.

Perfect. As I told, due to immigration, European routes are interesting at GIG. North American carriers performs better in GRU (as well as Latin America). Totally agree, GIG improves after SDU relocation but it's never takes GRU position. Sao Paulo will always remain as main hub at least for the next 30 years. At a 8 to 14% yearly growth, GRU will be over capacity until 2025 (There's only space for 1 additional terminal and 1 new runaway).

Regards,

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !