andz
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:13 am

I found this press release on Boeing's website today....
from http://www.boeing.com

South African Airways to Purchase Boeing 777s and 747s

SEATTLE, Nov. 3, 1995 -- South African Airways, the flagship carrier for South Africa, today announced its intention to order four Boeing 777-200 twinjets, and options for three more of the new widebodies, Boeing Commercial Airplane Group confirmed. In addition, the airline announced its intention to order two 747-400 jumbo jetliners.

When confirmed, the orders and options will be valued at approximately $1.3 billion, the largest single order in the airline's 61-year history. The airline will take delivery of its first airplanes in 1997, initially using them on some of its longer routes to Europe and the Middle East. The airline has selected the longer- range version of the 777. Engine selection will be made at a later date.

"South Africa is undergoing a tremendous amount of change with an optimistic view of the future, and we feel the 777 is the right airplane to help us move in that direction." said John Hare, deputy chief executive of South African Airways. "The 777 provides a level of comfort unparalleled in the industry, along with the performance, economics and range that best meet the needs of South African Airways." Referring to the intense competition within the 777 market, Hare added: "It's a decision we didn't take lightly."

"We're extremely pleased that South African Airways has chosen the 777 over its quad- and tri-jet competitors," said Seddik Belyamani, vice president of Boeing International Sales. "This is particularly rewarding because of SAA's requirements for aircraft performance that are among the most stringent in the industry, a clear reflection that the 777 delivers superior value to its customers," he added. "This announcement continues a long relationship with the airline dating back to 1958 when they ordered their first 707, and since that time have taken delivery of 57 Boeing airplanes."

Today, South African Airways operates 29 Boeing jetliners, including 13 737-200 twinjets and 16 747 jumbo jets.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
leelaw
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:17 am

BTW, what happened to the 738s?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
andz
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 1):
BTW, what happened to the 738s?

738s are in use on the domestic and regional routes, will be phased out in 2010.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
leelaw
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:24 am

Quoting Andz (Thread starter):
Today, South African Airways operates 29 Boeing jetliners, including 13 737-200 twinjets and 16 747 jumbo jets.

Then SA is currently operating more than 40 Boeing jetliners?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
andz
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:32 am

Not quite Lee, according to http://www.flysaa.com SAA currently has the following Boeings:

8 x 744 (I question this, I think it is currently 6)
8 x 732 (excluding freighters)
21 x 738
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
N60659
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:33 am

From the 12-18 Apr issue of Flight International:

2 x 727-200F
9 x 737-200
21 x 737-800
8 x Boeing 747-400
-------------------
Total : 40 Boeing aircraft

Just not sure how current this is.

-N60659

[Edit: Andz, looks like you beat me to it. I will defer to your figures]

[Edited 2005-05-05 21:34:23]
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USAF336TFS
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:36 am

Well I went to Boeings site and could not find the press release... Then I re-read the post. Look at the date of this press release... It's dated Nov. 3, 1995...
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goCOgo
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting Andz (Thread starter):
When confirmed, the orders and options will be valued at approximately $1.3 billion, the largest single order in the airline's 61-year history.



Quoting Andz (Thread starter):
16 747 jumbo jets

Currently

Quoting Andz (Reply 4):
8 x 744

I think with the recent huge AC and (probable) AI, the ANA 787 order, etc, plus the fact SAA has dropped the number of 747s, these are the points he was getting at. Either that, or he can't read the date.
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leelaw
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:53 am

I guess the threadstarter's point here is that in less than 10 years SA's fleet has transitioned from being mostly Boeing to being predominantly Airbus?
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Xkorpyoh
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:54 am

if is from 1995, this post should be deleted because it is misleading.
 
andz
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:55 am

guys....read the topic.....and the date.....

and SAA have NO 727s, haven't had for the best part of 20 years.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
TWA902fly
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:59 am

You guys - i think the point is that this article if from 1995, and since then the "how things can change" refers to the fact that SAA now flies A340s and such...

'902
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USAF336TFS
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 11):
You guys - i think the point is that this article if from 1995, and since then the "how things can change" refers to the fact that SAA now flies A340s and such...

Yeah, sounds about right to me... But he should be reminded that some of us failed Mind Reading in college.  Wink
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AC787
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:08 am

When did they cancel there 777 order and what was the reasoning? I'd have loved to see 777's in SAA colors
 
tinpusher007
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 12):
Yeah, sounds about right to me... But he should be reminded that some of us failed Mind Reading in college.

I agree..this topic is very misleading. The fact that SAA is switiching to an all-Airbus fleet is old news and has been discussed many many times.
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mrcomet
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:15 am

Damn...I hope none of you are pilots.
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andz
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:17 am

Quoting MrComet (Reply 15):
Damn...I hope none of you are pilots.

I'm sitting here shaking my head too.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
Kahala777
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting Andz (Thread starter):
I found this press release on Boeing's website today

You mean 10 Years Ago?


Regards - Kahala777
 
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USAF336TFS
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting MrComet (Reply 15):
Damn...I hope none of you are pilots.

Why do you have to pass the Mind Reading course?
 

Quoting Andz (Reply 16):
I'm sitting here shaking my head too.

Perhaps you could have made your point a little clearer?

 eyebrow 

[Edited 2005-05-05 22:24:24]
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andz
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:22 am

no...I was doing a search to find out when SAA started operating 737-200s and this was on the site....today.... you guys take yourselves WAY too seriously.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1995/news.release.951103.html
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
odafz
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:24 am

Shall I remind you that we are in 2005, the article is written in 1995 and the delivery in 1997, well that is odd.
[

Quoting Andz (Thread starter):

We're extremely pleased that South African Airways has chosen the 777 over its quad- and tri-jet competitors

........ the MD 11 is gone a long time ago..... as should have had this press release
 
LH423
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:25 am

I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend for some people? At first I thought it was a new order as well, but then I realized that if it were the topic would be much more like when Air Canada ordered the 777 and 787. A MASSIVE news event. Then I saw the date.

Yes, SAA was supposed to order the 777 however, IIRC, new management came in and cancelled the order and ordered the A340-600s instead. However, I think that's also when they ordered the 737-800s. Any word as to why they'll be leaving the fleet in 2010? Didn't the 738 replace the small fleet of A320s that SAA used to operate? I'd find it strange if SAA went back to the narrow Airbii after disposing of their original examples.

LH423
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andz
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:37 am

Well as some of the people who think they know all about airline matters have pointed out, SAA decided on an all Airbus fleet some time ago. The 738s were a political purchase as the CEO at the time was an American by the name of Coleman Andrews who decided to get rid of the 320s and 300s. When Andrews was booted and given a sizeable golden parachute the decision to go Airbus was made, and this has been discussed ad nauseum on here.

I guess the Airbus plan was scheduled to get good usage out of the brand new 738s and replace them last. There are already many 319 in the fleet, the new 320s are in limbo.
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clickhappy
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:41 am

There was also the embarrasing incident when one of the engines on the 777 used to demo for SAA when belly up on taxi for the demo flight. Oops.
 
gearup
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SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 5:43 am

I was taken in by it until the part "......trijet competitors", Wait a minute! My heart jumped, I thought Boeing was bringing the MD11 back! Then I woke and I realised it was all a dream!

GU  cry 
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andz
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's And 747's In 1995..Press Release Incl.

Fri May 06, 2005 6:18 am

oh dear I guess the original post title was too subtle for most.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
B747-437B
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 6:27 am

Quoting Andz (Reply 4):
8 x 744 (I question this, I think it is currently 6)

There are still 8 in the fleet AFAIK.

ZS-SAK
ZS-SAV
ZS-SAW
ZS-SAX
ZS-SAY
ZS-SAZ
ZS-SBK
ZS-SBS

SAK and SAZ have the new config and are used almost exclusively on JNB-LHR

SAV, SAW, SAX and SAY are in a standard config

SBK and SBS are in the hybrid config with the Millenium seats at higher pitch.


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"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 6:40 am

Quoting AC787 (Reply 13):
When did they cancel there 777 order and what was the reasoning? I'd have loved to see 777's in SAA colors

They ordered the 772ER with the PW9098 power plant. When that engine turned out to have horrible SFC, they cancelled their order. Same for Lan Chile

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 23):
There was also the embarrasing incident when one of the engines on the 777 used to demo for SAA when belly up on taxi for the demo flight. Oops.

I think that was the 773ER demonstration, not the 772ER they initially ordered.
 
JMO-777
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 3:01 pm

@DfwRevolution:

No, the 777 with Engineproblems was definetly a 200ER, from Delta.
Flying those demoflights for Boeing.

GreetZ,
Jan
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mrcomet
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 3:22 pm

Quoting Andz (Reply 25):
oh dear I guess the original post title was too subtle for most

Careful. People don't like to feel stupid. They get angry and appeal to the trigger happy moderators.

This leads me to wonder what percentage of the announcements by major airlines actually turn into firm orders. I am sure if this list has pondered every livery on earth for style then it considered this question although I can not find the thread.
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PM
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 3:29 pm

Quoting N60659 (Reply 5):
From the 12-18 Apr issue of Flight International

Bear in mind that the airliners census figures in FLIGHT every year are notoriously inaccurate. A new JP Fleet Lists will be published imminently. That's the most reliable source - at least on paper.
 
N60659
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 3:33 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 30):
Bear in mind that the airliners census figures in FLIGHT every year are notoriously inaccurate. A new JP Fleet Lists will be published imminently. That's the most reliable source - at least on paper.

And here I was thinking that FI was the ultimate authority on everything man-made that flies.  Yeah sure

Just kidding !!

-N60659
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Flyer732
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:30 pm

Quoting JMO-777 (Reply 28):
No, the 777 with Engineproblems was definetly a 200ER, from Delta.
Flying those demoflights for Boeing.

That is correct, if I remember correctly the aircraft flew ATL-FLL-CPT, then was heading out for the demo flight and one of the engines started having problems. I don't remember how long the plane was stuck down there, but Delta fixed it and brought it back.

As a side note, they also did another 777 trip to South Africa for a Golf Tournament a year or so ago...I have a few pics of the aircraft landing in CPT on that run.

Rgrds
 
grantcv
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 4:45 pm

The chronology of events is all messed up:

- In 1995, SAA ordered a batch of 777 and 747s
- After suffering terrible losses, Coleman Andrews came in to straighten things out. As part of a restructuring of SAA's fleet, he cancelled the 777s which had been postponed saying they were a bad decision in the first place and changed the order into another 2 747s (bringing the total to 8). A batch of 738s were then also ordered. He then phased out all the Airbus aircraft.
- He was then booted out when the results weren't what was hoped for and the new regime chose to go back to Airbus, ordering the A319s and the A340s. I believe some 738 options were never taken up. While Coleman Andrew's bias was for an American product, the decision to go all Airbus was probably just as politically motivated (an anti-American move)
- The remaining 732s are leaving the fleet in the next few weeks. The 738s will be gone by 2010.

And still SAA continues to lose money.
 
leelaw
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release

Fri May 06, 2005 4:56 pm

Quoting MrComet (Reply 29):
This leads me to wonder what percentage of the announcements by major airlines actually turn into firm orders.

An old-hand in the aircraft leasing business tells me the historical rate of firm order cancellations is close to 25%. Similarly, less than 40% of options for future deliveries have ever been exercised and converted into firm orders.

[Edited 2005-05-06 10:06:37]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
andz
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 9:53 pm

Quoting MrComet (Reply 29):
This leads me to wonder what percentage of the announcements by major airlines actually turn into firm orders

This was my main reason for posting the press release, I remember seeing another post last week querying who would be the first 380 cancellation, things change very fast in this business and Boeing must have felt pretty confident about SAA's business at the time.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
JGPH1A
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 10:02 pm

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 33):
the decision to go all Airbus was probably just as politically motivated (an anti-American move)

It was most likely economically motivated, as Airbus have offered offset work to Denel in SA, IIRC.
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bluepoole
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 10:04 pm

Well, I just feel that a 777 in SAA's livery would have looked great!! One can still hope...maybe someday...

Andz - slightly off-topic, why doesn't SAA give all the new Airbuses and 737-800's names? On their website, they launched a competition in 2003 where they invited the public to come up with names. Apparently it never realised.
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JAM747
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 11:19 pm

I read sometime ago in either Airways or Airliners that the SAA deal was very competitive. It also said that the A340 had an economical advantage in hot weather flights compared to the 747, but I am not sure if that applied the 777. This reason in addition to an aggressive sales pitch by Airbus helped Airbus make the deal. Does any one know more about the hot weather advantage between the A340 and 747/777?
 
SA7700
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Fri May 06, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 26):
SAK and SAZ have the new config and are used almost exclusively on JNB-LHR

SAV, SAW, SAX and SAY are in a standard config

SBK and SBS are in the hybrid config with the Millenium seats at higher pitch.

According to an inside source, the entire J-class product on the 744's has now been converted to flatbed seats, as per "Millennium configuration". The seating plans for the 744's have been adjusted in the new printed timetable, as well as online.

SAV, SAW, SAY and SAX have 35 flatbed seats in J-class; as opposed to the 39 flatbed seats on SBK, SBS, SAK and SAZ.

Rgds

SA7700
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planemad
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Sat May 07, 2005 1:20 am

"The airline will take delivery of its first airplanes in 1997, initially using them on some of its longer routes to Europe and the Middle East."

As you can see, it is an old article

Sam D  Smile
 
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PM
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Sat May 07, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting PlaneMad (Reply 40):
As you can see, it is an old article

Another way to do it is to read the date on the article... Wink
 
andz
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Sat May 07, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting PlaneMad (Reply 40):
As you can see, it is an old article

I give up.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
brons2
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Sat May 07, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting Andz (Reply 19):
you guys take yourselves WAY too seriously.

Obviously. Why can't people enjoy an old press release without getting all mad about it?

Good post Andz. Interesting historical view of things.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
N60659
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Sat May 07, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting Andz (Reply 42):
I give up.

Please don't. I think the majority of us get it. I, in fact, actually liked your old title for the thread.

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Sat May 07, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 9):
if is from 1995, this post should be deleted because it is misleading

Misleading? Andy wrote exactly what he published: a press release from 1995. So what is misleading???

In Germany we say "wer lesen kann ist klar im Vorteil!" - means: people who can read, have big advantages.
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B747-437B
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Sat May 07, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 39):
SAV, SAW, SAY and SAX have 35 flatbed seats in J-class; as opposed to the 39 flatbed seats on SBK, SBS, SAK and SAZ.

Don't SBK and SBS have one less first class suite (10 versus 11) than the rest of the fleet?
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
SA7700
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Sat May 07, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 46):
Don't SBK and SBS have one less first class suite (10 versus 11) than the rest of the fleet?

Yes Sean, that's correct.

Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
MD80Nut
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Sat May 07, 2005 3:37 am

As an aside, does SAA plan to phase out the 747-400s as well and replace them with A340-600s or will they keep some?

Cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
SA7700
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RE: SA Wanted To Buy 777's In 1995 (Press Release Incl.)

Sat May 07, 2005 3:55 am

Andz, sorry for hijacking your thread.

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 48):
As an aside, does SAA plan to phase out the 747-400s as well and replace them with A340-600s or will they keep some?

To my knowledge the 747's will be part of the SAA fleet for a few years to come. The A340's were acquired to replace the 747 Classics (747-200's and 300's).

Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)

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