User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29929
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

EL AL Safety Concern

Fri May 06, 2005 7:46 pm

Link
Could not constant patrolling suffice.
And with the population at Mumbai,very difficult for a suspicious mvmt to go unnoticed.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Fri May 06, 2005 8:58 pm

According to the article BA and some american airline (what US carrier serves Mumbai?) have filed the same request.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2537
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Fri May 06, 2005 9:08 pm

Delta flies to BOM.

This is really getting ridiculous!
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6382
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Fri May 06, 2005 9:16 pm

NW flies there via AMS.
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
nycflyer
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:23 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 12:13 am

I'm sorry, from reading the article I still have no idea what a "dargah" is. what exactly does El Al want removed???
 
erikwilliam
Posts: 2122
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:30 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 12:33 am

NYCFlyer:
I think is the thing where people are above in the pic.
Why don´t someone says the truth to El Al???
It´s getting ridiculous, has India ever attacked Isarael?Any terrorist cells from there?Osama is there?
Jesus, too ridiculous.....

if the article is true, and they do remove the prayers place, then El Al will want everything from everywere.

a bit too much isn´t?
why they just don´t fly there anymore, if it´s so unsafe?!?!?
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29929
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 4):
still have no idea what a "dargah" is.

A Dargah is a place of worship for Muslims.Although other faiths visit it too.A small Mosque.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MKEdude
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 9:55 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 12:41 am

No doubt there are ideal spots from which to launch an attack in the flight path of every major world airport, it would be impossible to tear them all down.

That being said when it comes to security El Al knows what they are doing. No El Al plane has ever been lost due to a terrorist action. Do you think that is because nobody has ever tried? Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT all out to get you!
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
Transtar
Posts: 437
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 1999 5:51 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 1:16 am

I wonder what the passenger loads are for El Al on the TLV-BOM route? I think they fly the 767-200 there, correct?

Does Israel do a lot of business with India? Defense items? etc.?

My partner's brother in Israel works for a pharmaceutical company and they were examining building a plant there. He traveled on El Al.
 
shawnnyc
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:48 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 1:47 am

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 7):
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT all out to get you!

So first off Jews have lived in India for centuries and never been attacked by Hindus nor Muslims. Israelis should feel safer in India than most any place in the world. Second they are paranoid. Made the big mistake of flying EL AL and going to Israel. Searched 5 times (not the baggage search at check in, the full come to the back room full search and dragged all 6 of my friends with us). Basically if you're brown and not Israeli, you will be searched fully. But it is their airline, their country and their values. So now that I know it, I know not to ever fly EL Al and not to every again visit Israel.
 
LY4XELD
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 5:14 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 9):
Second they are paranoid. Made the big mistake of flying EL AL and going to Israel. Searched 5 times (not the baggage search at check in, the full come to the back room full search and dragged all 6 of my friends with us). Basically if you're brown and not Israeli, you will be searched fully. But it is their airline, their country and their values. So now that I know it, I know not to ever fly EL Al and not to every again visit Israel.

A bit of an overgeneralized statement, wouldn't you say? The article didn't cite any source or quote from El Al which shows their position, except that no one was available for comment. If these are the attitudes that you'd bring to Israel, I'm sure you won't be missed.
That's why we're here.
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 5:57 am

hmm... Well then:

Quoting TranStar (Reply 8):
Does Israel do a lot of business with India? Defense items? etc.?

The answer is yes, Defense, high tech business (India has developed on this area so much). In addition, many Israelis travel India. LY has 2 weekly 762/752 flights.

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 9):
Basically if you're brown and not Israeli

Well, its basically if you're not an Israeli civilian.

But if we return to the subject, have you guys ever seen BOM? It can be heaven for terrorist. There is this boxes hood right near the runway, (I actually saw a dog "marking his territory" on one of the landing gears of a 737).
There is no fence there and anyone who wants can walk down the runway, so El AL security is worrying about that mosque?

[Edited 2005-05-06 23:26:38]
 
geoffm
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:58 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 4):
I'm sorry, from reading the article I still have no idea what a "dargah" is. what exactly does El Al want removed???

From Google:
The place or complex where the Mazar of a muslim saint is situated and where the people assemble for religious merit

...and Mazar:
Grave or tomb of a saint

Geoff M.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting TranStar (Reply 8):
I wonder what the passenger loads are for El Al on the TLV-BOM route?

I'd imagine very high. Many Israelis visit India (especially after their army service).

Quoting TranStar (Reply 8):
Does Israel do a lot of business with India? Defense items? etc.?

Israel and India are both high-tech democracies threatened by their Muslim neighbors...And the old adage "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" holds true. Israel and India do have close defense ties.

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 9):
Second they are paranoid

If they stopped being paranoid, they'd have hijackings.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 8:46 am

Although a somewhat minor issue the current "war on terror", it seems that perhaps the loss of the concept of "compromise" has not only been lost in the United States, but also in the rest of the world.

Can India not see El Al's concern? Can Israel not understand India's position? Do they believe a mutually beneficial situation can not be found?

I believe that a quick and effective solution will be found.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 8:56 am

I agree completely with the quote from the article: "This is one more absurd request the airline has made. Earlier, they wanted guards posted at the Juhu aerodrome, fearing a terrorist attack,” said an airport official."

Sorry but this is paranoia at its best and totally ridiculous. If LY fears a terror attack they should rather quit operations than asking for the demolishion of a building near BOM airport.

Actually I can't belive that this is true, what a joke!

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 15):
Sorry but this is paranoia at its best and totally ridiculous. If LY fears a terror attack they should rather quit operations than asking for the demolishion of a building near BOM airport.

Actually I can't belive that this is true, what a joke!

Seriously, I love how people value their freedom on these boards, but it's so easy to be offended and blow off security concerns when you're NOT the target of constant attacks. When it's your job to assure the safety of passengers and people on the ground, and you know you're a MAIN target of attack, you do everything you can to protect your interests, including making difficult and even outrageous requests.

LY has the safest flights from a security perspective in the world next to AF1 for a reason, and it's not because of anyone here on A.net, that's for sure.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting Geoffm (Reply 12):
From Google:
The place or complex where the Mazar of a muslim saint is situated and where the people assemble for religious merit

actually, the definition is a bit off...Muslims dont' have "saints" such as there are in Christianity, there are "Imams" and "scholars"..but theres really no hierarchy in Islam....

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 13):
Israel and India are both high-tech democracies threatened by their Muslim neighbors...And the old adage "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" holds true. Israel and India do have close defense ties.

care to elaborate on your ridiculous comment?
"Up the Irons!"
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
care to elaborate on your ridiculous comment?

Care to elaborate on your emotionally charged usage of "ridiculous"?

I'll take a quick stab at what RJ was saying here, since it's you know...world news, and not exactly a secret:

India and Pakistan almost got into a shooting war as recently as 3 years ago, and both have nuclear arsenals. Pakistan? Muslim majority. India? Not a Muslim majority.

Israel has, at best, an uneasy truce of fear with every single one of their neighbors except Egypt, and the only reason the truce is there is because they have Nukes, and they've soundly trounced their neighbors in every war since 1948. Neighbors? Muslim majorities. Israel? Not Muslim majorities.

I'm not saying that all parts of both countries' conflicts are due to religion, but to pretend they have nothing to do with religion is just as "ridiculous".
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 18):
Care to elaborate on your emotionally charged usage of "ridiculous"?

hmmm....lets see..I asked the poster to elaborate on what i felt was a "ridiculous" comment.........now would you care to explain as to how my question was "emotionally charged"......i asked a simple question to a comment which I thought was outlandish..

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 18):
ndia and Pakistan almost got into a shooting war as recently as 3 years ago, and both have nuclear arsenals. Pakistan? Muslim majority. India? Not a Muslim majority.

First of all..India's "minority" Muslim Population is almost the entire size of the United States population...so India has a massive Muslim population....

The Indian govt. is known to have human rights abuses, as does the Govt. of Israel (as well as United Nations violations)....does that make all Hindus/Buddhists/Sieks and Jews as people who believe in human rights abuse...no..not one bit...

By making umbrella comments such as "democracies threatened by Muslim neighbors" is a prejudistic and racist comment towards all Muslims.....

Your comments reflect how little you know about world conflicts....

Now....try going to 3rd world countries and other places of conflict.....and then let me know...maybe we can then have an intelligent conversation.... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 12:45 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 16):
When it's your job to assure the safety of passengers and people on the ground, and you know you're a MAIN target of attack, you do everything you can to protect your interests, including making difficult and even outrageous requests.

Did you hear of such a (really!) ridiculous requests before of any other airline/in any other country?

As I wrote, if LY is as paranoid as that, they should better cancel their BOM flights instead of demanding to tear down a building near BOM airport.

It is better for both, LY and the city of Mumbai without such a ridiculous security measures.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 19):
so India has a massive Muslim population....

Except it's a massive Muslim population as part of a massive Indian population. 100 Million out of a billion is still just 10%.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 19):
By making umbrella comments such as "democracies threatened by Muslim neighbors" is a prejudistic and racist comment towards all Muslims.....

Nothing prejudiced about it. Rather, it is a fact. Both Israel and India are democracies that are threatened by non-Democratic Muslim neighbors. Do you dispute this? It is natural that they are allies, just as it's natural that Israel and Turkey are allies.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 3:09 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):
Except it's a massive Muslim population as part of a massive Indian population. 100 Million out of a billion is still just 10%.

130 million+ of any group is enough to warrant a "large" population....and even if they are a minority, what does that have to do with having to tear down a mazar for 130 million+ Muslims...because LY want it due to "security" concerns?

They can get away with such acts like that in Isreal, but not in India.....if LY doesn't like it, they can fly somewhere else.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):

Nothing prejudiced about it. Rather, it is a fact.

fact according to who....you?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):
Both Israel and India are democracies that are threatened by non-Democratic Muslim neighbors. Do you dispute this?

Funny, if I can recall, Isreal is the only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons.....maybe you should ask the Palestinians who are the ones feeling "threatened"... Once again, you need to learn a bit more about Indo-Pakistani politics and the history behind it before making a blanket statement......
"Up the Irons!"
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 3:28 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
fact according to who....you?

How about according to anyone who studies government? Israel is the sole democracy in the region. India is a democracy neighbored by non-democracies. But, if you don't choose to believe me, feel free to consult Freedom House:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/pdf_docs...esearch/freeworld/2003/map2003.pdf

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
Funny, if I can recall, Isreal is the only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons.....maybe you should ask the Palestinians who are the ones feeling "threatened"...

HAHA. Dude, if Israel nuked the Palestinians, they'd be killing themselves...Nice try though.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29929
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 4:59 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 19):
First of all..India's "minority" Muslim Population is almost the entire size of the United States population...so India has a massive Muslim population....

Second in the World,more muslims here than in Pakistan.

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 20):
As I wrote, if LY is as paranoid as that, they should better cancel their BOM flights instead of demanding to tear down a building near BOM airport.

The Concern is its a Dargah,In India tearing down any religious monument,even a smallest one can have disastarous consequences.

Also the Dargah is visited my many faiths,not only Muslim.Typical of Mumbais religious places.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
bennett123
Posts: 7527
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 5:13 pm

It seems that there are two issues here;

1. The Dargah is NOT on the airport site.

If you demolish every building with a clear view of a runway or runway approach, (which is equally vulnerable) where do you stop.

2. The airport is NOT in Israel.

If EL AL don't like it, then don't go there. I would be interested to hear the Israeli reaction if a foreign airline tried to impose it's attitudes or priorities on Israel.
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sat May 07, 2005 6:01 pm

Quoting TranStar (Reply 8):
Does Israel do a lot of business with India?

The trade is measured in billlions of $$. The major deal that should be mentioned are the IAI AWACS planes sold to India and the Druve VIP helicopter bought by Israel (the world's most high flying rotor a/c AFAIK).


I wonder why did nobody notice my first reply to this post, where I specifically mentioned that the article says that the British and US carriers demand the same.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sun May 08, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 26):
I wonder why did nobody notice my first reply to this post, where I specifically mentioned that the article says that the British and US carriers demand the same.

That's because while it's gaining popularity the world over, it's still not quite as fun to preach moral superiority at the US and UK as it is at Israel.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sun May 08, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 25):
I would be interested to hear the Israeli reaction if a foreign airline tried to impose it's attitudes or priorities on Israel.

Seeing that TLV is probably the safest airport in the world, that wouldn't be a problem.

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 27):
That's because while it's gaining popularity the world over, it's still not quite as fun to preach moral superiority at the US and UK as it is at Israel.

LOL! I rarely actually laugh out loud to things written on A.net, but that was funny!  Smile

Rudy, I think you misread the article. It didn't say that US and British carriers are demanding the same, but rather:Confirming the airline’s request, Anil Kumar, senior commandant, CISF, Mumbai airport, said the threat perception to El Al was higher than any other airline.

Next in line are American airlines and British ones. “We have also identified the place as a security threat, since it is situated on a hillock,” he said.


See you in Israel in a few weeks hopefully!  Smile
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
CORULEZ05
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:39 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sun May 08, 2005 6:40 am

I don't think it is anything new for El Al to be requesting extreme security. I mean, I absolutely agree with El Al because there are A LOT of terrorist attacks in Israel and the airline is very vulnerable. I am surprised they don't ban spotters from being close to the runway at US airports. Now THAT would be tragic wouldn't it guys...lol I think El Al has every right to request extra security because they are worried about their passengers and crew.
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sun May 08, 2005 7:40 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 23):
HAHA. Dude, if Israel nuked the Palestinians, they'd be killing themselves...Nice try though.

ummm...lets see, I never said that Israel nuke Palestine.....they have other ways of violating human rights and UN Resolutions

Quoting CORULEZ05 (Reply 29):
I am surprised they don't ban spotters from being close to the runway at US airports. Now THAT would be tragic wouldn't it guys...lol I think El Al has every right to request extra security because they are worried about their passengers and crew.

 rotfl  you MUST be kidding???? I would like to see that happening....though I'm sure they have tried....

El Al has NO right from banning me from public places (i.e. parks near runway approaches)...also, if my business is below an EL Al approach, does that mean I should close my business until the EL AL plane passes???  Confused
"Up the Irons!"
 
SFOMEX
Posts: 1602
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:55 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sun May 08, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 9):
. Searched 5 times (not the baggage search at check in, the full come to the back room full search and dragged all 6 of my friends with us). Basically if you're brown and not Israeli, you will be searched fully.

A friend of mine told me a similar story. I know that EL AL puts security ahead of everything and it's hard to blame them for doing so. Yet, for those of us who are neither Jewish nor from the USA or other European countries it makes you wonder if it's worthy to go through all this hassle when traveling to Israel.

I'm planning a trip with my mom to the Holy Land. She wants to visit Jerusalem and Belem, kind of a spiritual trip. I've been checking prices and EL AL is a good option flying from the USA. Yet, I wouldn't like to expose my mom to a difficult moment just because of EL AL security
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1638
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sun May 08, 2005 9:41 am

Well said Bennett123,

There are Muslim areas in London underneath LHR flightpaths as well.

And,I think, quite possibly, they may have cars as well, so could position themselves anywhere - lets knock down the roads too?

what, they could go by train?, hmm, lets make all the train tracks underground!

they could walk did you say? lets put a mine field around the airport?

apologies for my satire, but the points are, like Bennet123 said, this is not Israel territory, and where do you stop?
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sun May 08, 2005 12:16 pm

It's not their territory, but that doesn't mean they can't ask to have issues they see as security threats addressed! If they don't get them answered to their liking, they will simply stop operating there, as so many people have demanded. There was no arm-twisting involved here. Kind of like the situation with CO and LOS, if you ask me.

What I don't get is where A.nutters get off telling EY that they're paranoid, and have no right to look out for their own security by making requests of the airport and local security. It's patently ridiculous that they should just have to accept whatever is there. They can ask, and if they don't get what they need, they won't fly.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sun May 08, 2005 10:42 pm

I can't believe I'm dragged into a political debate but here we go...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 30):
ummm...lets see, I never said that Israel nuke Palestine.....they have other ways of violating human rights and UN Resolutions

We've learned from the best.  sarcastic  If it's not on TV it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 30):
you MUST be kidding???? I would like to see that happening....though I'm sure they have tried....

But when you are flying, you do agree for a search in your belongings and on your body, so when you're flying, limiting your "freedom" is OK, but when others do, its not. (Don't get me wrong I also think there should be limits, but I don't make them, and since I don't think you understand anything in security, neither do you)

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 31):
I've been checking prices and EL AL is a good option flying from the USA. Yet, I wouldn't like to expose my mom to a difficult moment just because of EL AL security

You would experience the same security checking with any airline flying to Israel, especially from the states. The differences are big, but they are almost not noticed by the passengers.

Returning to the subject, I think its in both of the countries interest to solve this issue, we can't just say if you don't like it don't fly to BOM, but they can't just ruin this place. I'm sure india will find a solution that will satisfy LY security.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Sun May 08, 2005 11:00 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 26):
I wonder why did nobody notice my first reply to this post, where I specifically mentioned that the article says that the British and US carriers demand the same.

As RJpieces already mentioned, I also think you misread that part.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 30):

Quoting CORULEZ05 (Reply 29):
I am surprised they don't ban spotters from being close to the runway at US airports. Now THAT would be tragic wouldn't it guys...lol I think El Al has every right to request extra security because they are worried about their passengers and crew.

you MUST be kidding???? I would like to see that happening....though I'm sure they have tried....

El Al has NO right from banning me from public places (i.e. parks near runway approaches)...also, if my business is below an EL Al approach, does that mean I should close my business until the EL AL plane passes???

El Al has every right of requesting these things - just as much as the country that decides on granting or denying the request has every right in denying it.

There's no doubt in my mind that El Al has a higher sense of necessity for requests than other airlines do - but requesting the demolishing of a muslim site in another country really isn't the wisest thing to do in El Al's position...

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 33):
What I don't get is where A.nutters get off telling EY that they're paranoid, and have no right to look out for their own security by making requests of the airport and local security.

Who's telling Etihad that they're paranoid?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Mon May 09, 2005 12:10 am

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 34):
But when you are flying, you do agree for a search in your belongings and on your body, so when you're flying, limiting your "freedom" is OK, but when others do, its not. (Don't get me wrong I also think there should be limits, but I don't make them, and since I don't think you understand anything in security, neither do you)

I never said that..El Al certainly has rights to safeguard their plane and passengers..if they want to do extra screening and searches, etc. they have every right to, and if people don't want to fly them, thats fine.....I certainly don't have a problem with that......my comment is regarding public places.....and my families house is occasionally over approach 27R at ORD....where I can easily watch planes approaching over my house....should I leave my house when an EL AL flight approaches??

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 34):
We've learned from the best.

if you read previous posts of mine, you'll certainly know I'm very critical of US Policies.....

Quoting Leskova (Reply 35):
El Al has every right of requesting these things - just as much as the country that decides on granting or denying the request has every right in denying it.

they sure do, but that doesn't mean they will get them...also, if all or a vast majority of planes request such security, then there can be a case for it, not if one air carrier needs it....

amongst that, there are other places where El Al approaches...say such as water...if EL AL decides to come to SFO and approaches the 28's where sailboats go (though not completely close to the 28's, yet close enough), does that mean all sailboats have to be cleared and I fund my tax-dollars for the patrollers to come out every time El Al lands?? Sorry..but I sure in heck don't want EL Al, AA, QR, EK, nor any other carrier infringing my rights...simple as that!!
"Up the Irons!"
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Mon May 09, 2005 1:44 am

So how do you suggest LY to defend itself from ground to air missiles?
Have you considered what would happen if someone in your neighborhood will hit an LY T7? Besides the immediate result of the flight crushing into the neighborhood houses, and hundreds of people will be dead. What would the consequences be?
And its not that LY invent all those imaginary scenarios. Israeli airplanes were targeted before, with near hits.
You can say, "fine, so LY shouldn't fly here", but there are other people who'd argue that. Believe me, LY is a very small company, it doesn't fly routes that aren't profitable (at least not routes to the US).
And besides, who do you think pay for the extra security CO flights get (like any other company) when their flights land in Israel?

Lets say I do agree with you, LY security does offend your freedom, security will always do that. Before 9/11 you'd never think anyone would force you to take off your shoes before a flight, and look through your stuff, but now you accept this so called "lack of freedom" like many other things the American have learned to live with since, for your own security. I agree with you that clearing all the bay area in SF before a landing is drastic, and it probably wouldn't happen in the US, but if there'll be any kind of threat, they'd take any necessary action to allow the flight land safely like you'd do to any other flight! (I think they'd still prefer to land on a different rwy, or even divert)
 
shawnnyc
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:48 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Mon May 09, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 31):
A friend of mine told me a similar story. I know that EL AL puts security ahead of everything and it's hard to blame them for doing so. Yet, for those of us who are neither Jewish nor from the USA or other European countries it makes you wonder if it's worthy to go through all this hassle when traveling to Israel.

Exactly my thoughts. Israel has every right to treat people however they want in their country. But I have no desire on my vacation to feel like a second class human being because I happen to have tan skin. That is why I give Israel a pass (I turned down two business trips to Israel for my bank already). The funny thing is you can get attacked for saying you don't want to go through all the crap in the back rooms that EL AL has in airports. I am American, and it annoys me that some of my fellow Americans get angry because I don't want to subject myself to full and repeated searches for no other reason than skin color.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Mon May 09, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 37):
So how do you suggest LY to defend itself from ground to air missiles?

one can't, its a difficult situation, but that is a risk El Al must take....

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 37):
Believe me, LY is a very small company, it doesn't fly routes that aren't profitable (at least not routes to the US).

I've never argued with you on that, but its still not my concern about El Al (nor any other single air carrier actually) needing to have extra security at paid for by other people's expenses

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 37):
And besides, who do you think pay for the extra security CO flights get (like any other company) when their flights land in Israel?

beats me...I've never been there......if CO has taxpayers for it, and taxpayers don't want to pay for it, then CO can either pay for it themselves or not fly there...

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 37):
Lets say I do agree with you, LY security does offend your freedom, security will always do that

""They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Motto of the Historical Review of Pennsylvania "

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 37):
Before 9/11 you'd never think anyone would force you to take off your shoes before a flight, and look through your stuff, but now you accept this so called "lack of freedom" like many other things the American have learned to live with since, for your own security.

that concept is for EVERY airline flying in the US of A, and if I wan to fly then I MUST follow the rules....if I don't want to fly, then I need not follow those rules....its MY choice to fly...

" We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness. (June 1776)"

Declaration of Independence
"Up the Irons!"
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Mon May 09, 2005 11:24 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 39):
that concept is for EVERY airline flying in the US of A, and if I wan to fly then I MUST follow the rules....if I don't want to fly, then I need not follow those rules....its MY choice to fly...

And it's El Al's choice on how and where to operate. You keep riding this very high moral horse around, but you're projecting evil intent onto their actions, which is unfair.

They see it as a security threat. They asked for a solution that would work for them. It was denied. They now have to decide if they want to continue to operate there, look for alternate security solutions, or some other option. There's no threats involved here, and just as they have no right to tell you how to live their life, you have no right to tell them how best to operate. So climb down, the horse is tired.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Mon May 09, 2005 5:08 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 40):
And it's El Al's choice on how and where to operate. You keep riding this very high moral horse around, but you're projecting evil intent onto their actions, which is unfair.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 36):
Sorry..but I sure in heck don't want EL Al, AA, QR, EK, nor any other carrier infringing my rights...simple as that!



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 39):
I've never argued with you on that, but its still not my concern about El Al (nor any other single air carrier actually) needing to have extra security at paid for by other people's expenses

now lets see, maybe if you read my other posts on this thread(one which is above one of your retorts), you would have known that my comments are NOT directed at El Al specifically (I had purposefully included United States and Arab carriers to name a few to make sure my comments weren't directed at El Al specifically)..so how about getting all the facts before you make an incorrect comment... sarcastic 

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 40):
They see it as a security threat. They asked for a solution that would work for them. It was denied. They now have to decide if they want to continue to operate there, look for alternate security solutions, or some other option.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 36):
I never said that..El Al certainly has rights to safeguard their plane and passengers..if they want to do extra screening and searches, etc. they have every right to, and if people don't want to fly them, thats fine.....I certainly don't have a problem with that..

isn't that what I mentioned above???  confused 

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 40):
There's no threats involved here, and just as they have no right to tell you how to live their life, you have no right to tell them how best to operate. So climb down, the horse is tired.

I'm not telling El Al how to operate....I just stated that I would not like my rights violated or pay extra money in taxes (for security) for one particular air carrier who I believe is paranoid ...

next time....before you go about making a fool out of yourself  footinmouth , please get your facts straight.....thank you very much...  yes 
"Up the Irons!"
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Mon May 09, 2005 6:08 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 39):
I've never argued with you on that, but its still not my concern about El Al (nor any other single air carrier actually) needing to have extra security at paid for by other people's expenses



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 41):
I just stated that I would not like my rights violated or pay extra money in taxes (for security) for one particular air carrier who I believe is paranoid ...

LOL. How does El Al security violate your rights? Also, how exactly are you paying for El Al security? Last time I checked, the Israeli government subsidized ( at least part of) LY security.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29929
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Tue May 10, 2005 7:12 pm

Currently.Its status quo.
 Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1737
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 6:45 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Tue May 10, 2005 8:09 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):
Nothing prejudiced about it. Rather, it is a fact. Both Israel and India are democracies that are threatened by non-Democratic Muslim neighbors. Do you dispute this?

I will just ask not to throw such comments because this issue is not so simple as your quote suggests it. India is threatened because of a land dispute with Pakistan over Cashemire. So here democracy or not have nothing to do with the issue. And the eternal Israel question, no comment on that. Better to keep those political issues out of the forum!
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29929
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Tue May 10, 2005 8:41 pm

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 44):
India is threatened because of a land dispute with Pakistan over Cashemire.

Kashmir.
Its a question about Cross border terrorism  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Tue May 10, 2005 9:41 pm

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 38):
But I have no desire on my vacation to feel like a second class human being because I happen to have tan skin.

Sorry to tell you, but LY security does not rely on skin color, but rather your nationality, and some other factors (for example if you've visited Arab countries). If you don't want to go to Israel, fine, but find another excuse.
And one other thing, its better to be searched in a back room rather behind a curtain near the gate on AA flights.
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Wed May 11, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 41):
I'm not telling El Al how to operate....I just stated that I would not like my rights violated or pay extra money in taxes (for security) for one particular air carrier who I believe is paranoid ...

next time....before you go about making a fool out of yourself , please get your facts straight.....thank you very much...

I think part of the problem here is that you're arguing that they have no right to tell you what to do, but they never TOLD you what to do. You're making this a "Freedom of whatever" issue, when the fact is they made a request to local authorities, and were denied. If you find this acceptable as you've been saying, why are you riding them so hard for even making the request? You seem to have contempt for the request itself, which is a value judgement on your part. Hence people's reactions to your position.

Why say they have no right to tell you what to do when that was never stated or even implied here, except in Israel itself, where they have EVERY right to tell you what the rules are, and you have every right to avoid if it is onerous to you. (Yay freedom.)
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29929
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Thu May 12, 2005 8:02 pm

From the Airport it has a clear view of the Dargah.
I dont think it would be moved.
BTW ELAL is still operating.Afternoon Halt for the crew as its B762 is parked here.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29929
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: EL AL Safety Concern

Tue May 17, 2005 11:39 pm

Issue has settled down.ELAL Continues to Fly to Mumbai & the Dargah continues to stand.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos