EMB195ER
Topic Author
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:31 am

TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sun May 08, 2005 12:55 am

Hello guys!

See the link below (only in Portuguese, though)
http://www.revistaflap.com.br/noticias.asp?ID=1495

JJ is definitely ready to increase its marketshare in EZE and SCL routes. They are using porcelain bowls, silverwares, and wine glasses in economic class. All plastic materials were removed.

I think this is a very positive and agressive move, which will benefit and impress many passengers.

Does anybody know how is the competitors (LAN, Aerolineas, and RG) on board service on these routes?

Hugs,
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sun May 08, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting EMB195ER (Thread starter):
Does anybody know how is the competitors (LAN, Aerolineas, and RG) on board service on these routes?

What TAM is offering in Economy is standard service in Business for such medium range flights, about 3h duration.

It looks very impressive indeed...for the same in Europe (e.g. AMS-Moscow)flying economy you would get plastic material only, two choices of sandwich, one drink.

The fact is that GRU-SCL and GRU-EZE is extremelly competitive market, and TAM needs to have a diferential.

Rgs,
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sun May 08, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting EMB195ER (Thread starter):
the competitors (LAN, Aerolineas, and RG)

Keep in mind that competition on these routes is not restricted to AR, LA, RG and LCC GOL, but LH flies daily GRU-EZE (B747) and GRU-SCL (A346 with lie-flat seats on Biz), while BA flies GRU-EZE (B747). Competition is very tough on the GRU-EZE and GRU-SCL routes....

Rgs,
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sun May 08, 2005 2:31 am

Well, they might just as well improve the econ food too. While it is nice to have "real" silverware, it won't help much if you still have that shoe hard steak or that whatever you want to call it pasta (I'm exaggerating here, JJ food is not that bad, but it's still econ food).

In addition, their competition use widebodies on both routes, another reason to improve onboard service.

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
commavia
Posts: 9807
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sun May 08, 2005 2:35 am

I wish JJ would join oneworld already!
 
EMB195ER
Topic Author
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:31 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sun May 08, 2005 7:10 am

PPVRA,

Some people may disagree of my opinion, but food in airplanes (mainly in short routes) is more visual then anything else.

Therefore, porcelain and silverware will cause a very good impression.
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sun May 08, 2005 10:10 am

Quoting EMB195ER (Thread starter):
and wine glasses in economic class

LAN also uses glass for wine. Porcelain and Silverware? GOOD FOR TAM!!!!!

Bring us better service, competition is the only language LAN understands...

Any chance for a widebody or more frequencies? I think that's very importan for getting more share.

Regards)(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sun May 08, 2005 10:23 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
I wish JJ would join oneworld already!

TAM currently offers codeshares with American Airlines, and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines among others. Since the end of the VARIG/TAM agreement, anyone's guess as to who TAM will become a part of. In most cases AA/LA offer a great network. LA and JJ compete on several routes that AA and LA codeshare on. In addition JJ seems to be very happy with its agreement with KL to service SCL, EZE, GIG via GRU. TAM (JJ) at current seems to be pulling an Emirates, or Virgin Atlantic. TAM is waiting and patiently enjoying the view!

Regards - Kahala777
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 09, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 7):
TAM currently offers codeshares with American Airlines, and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines among others.

Also with Iberia, TACA, MEA, Air France and recently JAL...TAM is now an integral partner of the new Flying Blue (AF/KL FF), with miles elegible in all TAM operated flights.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 6):
Bring us better service

This is exactly what TAM is doing...

Quoting Arcano (Reply 6):
Any chance for a widebody or more frequencies?

As of June/05 TAM, which now has a consolidaded market share to SCL, will replace the A320 with the widebody A330 (IFE in all seats, lie-flat seats on Biz).

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 7):
at current seems to be pulling an Emirates, or Virgin Atlantic. TAM is waiting and patiently enjoying the view!

Indeed, VS and EK are planning flights to GRU and GIG, and to this end holding conversations with TAM.

Of course, JJ has no hurry to join an alliance...as you said, they are just watching and enjoying the advantage and freedom of bilateral agreements...(same way Emirates, Virgin and JAL are doing!)

Rgs,
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6241
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 09, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
they are just watching and enjoying the advantage and freedom of bilateral agreements

Given Brazil and Mexico's position as Latin America's largest and second largest aviation markets, respectively, AM should enter into codeshare agreements with JJ so that AM can place its code on some JJ flights in and out of GRU (including the flight to EZE). In addition, JJ should be able to sell seats on AM's flights between MEX and GRU and in some key flights in and out of MEX (such as CUN and LAX). What do you guys make of this idea? I believe this would justify an additional 772ER order for AM to fly it to GRU instead of the 762ER's it currently sends to Brazil.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
TACAA320
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 09, 2005 3:19 am

That's definitely great news for us. I hope that some U.S. carrier learn from TAM [as well from LA] instead of decrease their services all the time [like AA does].

Congratulations TAM!
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 09, 2005 3:31 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 9):
Given Brazil and Mexico's position as Latin America's largest and second largest aviation markets, respectively, AM should enter into codeshare agreements with JJ so that AM can place its code on some JJ flights in and out of GRU (including the flight to EZE

I totally agree with you. However, apparently AM codeshares to GRU with MX, correct? How would AM/MX handle this situation? Strange enough MX also puts its code on RG flight..I never understood this...Also, you have to consider whether JJ could not start flights to MEX with its own metal the same way it did to EZE and SCL;, but is there space for yet another market player on MEX-GRU? Also, traffic Mexico-Brazil will get a bit complicated now that Mexico decided to reintroduce VISA for Brazilians [related to Brazil's support to Chilean candidate for OAS in detriment to Mexico's Foreign Minister...].

Rgs,
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6241
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 09, 2005 3:42 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
apparently AM codeshares to GRU with MX, correct? How would AM/MX handle this situation? Strange enough MX also puts its code on RG flight..I never understood this

My sentiments exactly. This is one of the weirdest arrangements I have heard of. For RG it must be infurating since they used to be MX's exclusive partner to GRU and now MX has the ability to sell seats in both AM and RG's flights. In any case, I believe this AM-MX codeshare to Brazil will be among the first to go once AM and MX are sold by CINTRA later this year.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
you have to consider whether JJ could not start flights to MEX with its own metal the same way it did to EZE and SCL;, but is there space for yet another market player on MEX-GRU?

Absolutely right. It would be awesome to see JJ in MEX. I have the impression that AM and RG flights between MEX and GRU are always full or near full, and I recall reading that RG was considering adding additional capacity in this route, so there may be room for a 4x weekly flight by JJ. In addition, fares are high (people looking for cheaper fares usually end up flying CM or AR) so the route is very profitable for both AM and RG.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
Mexico decided to reintroduce VISA for Brazilians [related to Brazil's support to Chilean candidate for OAS

I had no idea of this Hardi (do you have a link or something?). This is just insane! That just goes to show how erratic and shortsighted the international policy of the current Mexican government is. This and other diplomatic mistakes make me happy that the Chilean Interior Minister will be the next Secretary General of the OAS and not our dumbass Foreign Affairs Minister. I hope the Mexican government will reconsider this stupid move and cancel the visa requirement for Brazilians.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 09, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12):
For RG it must be infurating since they used to be MX's exclusive partner to GRU and now MX has the ability to sell seats in both AM and RG's flights

Agree with you, but RG still depends on a local partern and proably RG is also thinking on the longer terms. As you mentioned, with the CINTRA deal, AM and MX cooperation will ge gone. RG needs to keep a local partner in MEX.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12):
I have the impression that AM and RG flights between MEX and GRU are always full or near full

Correct, loads and yields are very healthy on MEX-GRU; CM, TA and AR usually attract fare-oriented pax.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12):
I had no idea of this Hardi (do you have a link or something?). This is just insane!

I also think the same. The information was publised in O Globo newspaper, biggest in Rio de Janeiro. News are for subscribers only, so I pasted the article (in Potuguese) below:

http://oglobo.globo.com/boaviagemonline/aviacao/167923610.asp

-------------------
"México vai voltar a exigir visto de brasileiros

05/05/2005 - 14h04m
José Meirelles Passos e Eliane Oliveira - O Globo

WASHINGTON e BRASÍLIA - Daqui a duas semanas o México passará a exigir visto de entrada aos brasileiros que desejem visitar o país, mesmo como turista. O objetivo da iniciativa é interromper - ou ao menos reduzir significativamente - o crescente fluxo de pessoas que saem do Brasil e usam o México como um corredor para entrar por terra, ilegalmente, nos Estados Unidos. Desde fevereiro de 2004 os brasileiros podiam entrar no México só com o passaporte, graças a um acordo fechado entre os dois governos em dezembro de 2003.

A embaixadora do México no Brasil, Cecilia Soto, disse nesta quinta-feira que ainda não recebeu nenhuma informação sobre a exigência de visto de entrada aos brasileiros que desejam visitar o país. Ela afirmou, porém, que da última vez que conversou com seus colegas no governo mexicano foram feitas considerações nesse sentido.

A medida é tida como o resultado de fortes pressões do governo americano. A Patrulha de Fronteira dos EUA tem detido, em média, 75 brasileiros por dia desde outubro passado. O governo do México, no entanto, nega que tenha havido qualquer tipo de coerção:

- É uma questão humanitária, pois são grandes os riscos para quem tenta fazer aquela travessia. Nós temos uma tradição de hospitalidade, de atenção cuidadosa com os visitantes estrangeiros e temos um carinho específico pelos brasileiros - argumentou um porta-voz da Secretaria de Relações Exteriores (SRE) do México.

A SRE e o Instituto Nacional de Migração estão cuidando dos últimos detalhes para oficializar a exigência de visto a brasileiros. Além de obter um visto num consulado mexicano, ao desembarcar no México os cidadãos brasileiros terão de apresentar uma passagem de volta, o endereço de um hotel ou de uma residência no país. E também deverão demonstrar que têm dinheiro suficiente para se manter durante a permanência declarados no formulário de entrada.

Fontes diplomáticas, no entanto, insinuaram que a nova exigência seria uma forma do México demonstrar na prática a sua insatisfação com o fato de o Brasil ter apoiado o candidato do Chile, e não o mexicano, para o posto de secretário-geral da Organização de Estados Americanos (OEA). O chileno José Miguel Insulza foi o vencedor.

Essa especulação ganhou corpo porque o número de brasileiros (2.444) detidos no México e deportados ao serem apanhados quando tentavam entrar ilegalmente nos EUA, no ano passado, significou apenas 1% do total de estrangeiros (215 mil) apanhados na mesma situação. A grande maioria é formada por cidadãos da América Central, dos quais o México não exige visto.

Em janeiro e fevereiro passados o governo mexicano impediu a entrada no país de 1.295 brasileiros, por suspeitar que se tratavam de pessoas que pretendiam entrar clandestinamente nos EUA. Nesse mesmo período, 242 brasileiros foram detidos por policiais do México nas proximidades da fronteira com aquele país."
 
ghost77
Posts: 4461
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
Also, traffic Mexico-Brazil will get a bit complicated now that Mexico decided to reintroduce VISA for Brazilians [related to Brazil's support to Chilean candidate for OAS in detriment to Mexico's Foreign Minister...].

Ain't true! This has nothing to do with the Bra-Chile alliance.

REAL REASON BEHIND:

A lot of brazilians are arriving to Mexico with normal and legal tourist visas declaring they will be in Mexico for only a few days, but at the end they're staying in Mexico to work or either to cross the Mex-Us border.

------->
04:57 P.M., 06 Mayo 2005
MEXICO, Mayo 6 (AFP) - Las autoridades mexicanas han detectado desde el año pasado un gran número de ciudadanos brasileños que llegan al país con visado de turista, pero con otros objetivos, por lo que están evaluando esta situación con representantes de Brasil, informó este viernes la cancillería de México.

El subsecretario mexicano para América del Norte, Gerónimo Gutiérrez, que no precisó si el propósito real de estos falsos turistas es emigrar ilegalmente a México o Estados Unidos, salió así al paso de las informaciones aparecidas en la prensa mexicana esta semana que afirmaban que México quería volver a pedir visas a los turistas del país sudamericano.

"En los últimos años, las autoridades migratorias de México han observado que un número importante de ciudadanos de Brasil que llegan a México por propósitos de turismo de acuerdo con su solicitud no llegan con ese propósito", dijo el subsecretario mexicano para América del Norte.

Desde febrero del año que viene, México no pedirá visado a los brasileños que llegan al país norteamericano en viajes de turismo.

Gutiérrez no negó ni afirmó que su país pretenda revocar este medida y se limitó a decir que ante el número "importante" de rechazos de ciudadanos que llegaron a México como turistas, han "informado a la cancillería brasileña de la situación, estamos revisándolo, viendo por qué está pasando esto".

El subsecretario reveló que el pasado 17 de marzo hubo una reunión con funcionarios de la cancillería brasileña en la que se les informó "que estábamos revisando eso y que estaríamos en contacto para ver cómo podemos solucionarlo".

"Conforme vayan analizando esta situación y se vaya llegando a conclusiones tendremos que tener una nueva reunión con la cancillería brasileña", agregó.

En los últimos meses, entre el gran número de migrantes indocumentados que son detenidos en México en su camino hacia Estados Unidos -la mayoría de ellos centroamericanos- se encuentra regularmente varios sudamericanos, incluidos brasileños.



Ricardo APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
while BA flies GRU-EZE (B747)

Wasn't this downgraded to a 772ER or is it just Seasonal?

Quoting Arcano (Reply 6):
Bring us better service, competition is the only language LAN understands...

It's the only language companies will understand when monopolizing a market.  Smile Good for JJ!

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD-11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
hardiwv
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Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 6:26 am

Ghost77:

The Mexican authorities backdracked and stated that they will not impose VISA for Brazilians anymore...[of course, otherwise Mexicans would also need to impose VISA for all of Central America...it is well known that the huge majority of illegals crossing the Mex-US borders are from Central America for which Mexico does not ask VISA].

The fact that Mexico backtracke on its decision shows that the issue was clearly linked to the Bra-Chile alliance for the OAS...Mexican Foreign Minister was very upset with Brazil because of its strong support for the Chilean candiate (that actually got elected).

Rgs,
 
ghost77
Posts: 4461
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 6:38 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
The Mexican authorities backdracked and stated that they will not impose VISA for Brazilians anymore

Hardiwv,

Nope. Mexican government said that they will make a deep study of what's going on with this during the rest of the year. They'll be taking a final decision next Feb 06.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
Mexican Foreign Minister was very upset with Brazil because of its strong support for the Chilean candiate (that actually got elected).

Mexico is not upset with Brazil. Instead of insisting and going to the end of the resolution in order to get that place at the OAS, Mex F.M. decided to reject and decline in favor of Chile in order to conserve the calm in the region.

Ricardo APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6241
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 17):
Mex F.M. decided to reject and decline in favor of Chile in order to conserve the calm in the region.

Funny enough, this decision came after he was summoned to a private meeting between Mr. Insulza and Condoleeza Rice. There is a long way between the official version and the truth. Fact is, the Derbez candidacy was a mistake from the beginning and I am sure Mexico probably holds some grudges against South American countries at the moment since Mexico expected Derbez to be widely supported and that never happened. Whether the visa-for-Brazilians issue was a retaliatory measure or not is an altogether different story, but I find it very likely, especially given the track record of our current administration's foreign-policy makers.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
Fyano773
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:03 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
There is a long way between the official version and the truth

Eddie, the whole scenario is somehow misleading and the overall situation goes far beyond this diplomatic event.

It seems that there's a profound rivalry between both countries and it's been reported Brazil has excluded Mexico from integration to the rest of the continent, for instance: Mercosur, perhaps, because Brazil's leading role in the region could dwindle down.

That's disappointing and reveals the lack of integration in LATAM.

BTW, have you dude become Brazilian?  Wink

About the current topic, it's interesting how TAM has varied its products; for sure JJ will increase market share.

Cheers,

Fyano
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 10:25 am

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 19):

Did Mexico want to join Mercosur?

If Mexico got denied, it is probably because it could lead to some sort of open door that U.S./Canadian companies could get through... something like the Free Trade Area of the Americas currently under negotiation, except it would be a trade loop hole.

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 19):
Mercosur, perhaps, because Brazil's leading role in the region could dwindle down.

A lot of countries in S. America are not part of Mercosur. Some, like Chile, are not full members.

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6241
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 11:11 am

Well, I will maybe get flamed for turning this discussion into a diplomatic/commercial one, but the truth is that Mexico's ambiguity towards Latin American integration is one of the factors that has excluded itself from stronger links with South America. For starters, Mexico has applied to Mercosur as an associate (not "full") member and I don't think Brazil, the group's leader, is interested in speeding things up and the reason is that Mexico's export-import "openness" is completely focused on the U.S. and Canada (as everybody knows, the U.S. and Brazil are now in the middle of a free-trade controversy that has delayed or perhaps killed ALCA), and so the "trade-loop" that PPVRA mentions becomes a very sound argument.

On the other hand, Mexico and Brazil are both trying to convince the UN that the Security Council needs to be reformed and that a permanent seat for a Latin American "power" needs to be created. Of course each country wants it for itself. Frankly, in my opinion, Mexico and Brazil, being the two largest and most influential countries in the region, should reach an agreement whereby such permanent seat would be shared, and make their best efforts to implement a synchronized and coordinated international policy as to world security with Latin America's interests as their number one priority. Since this is not happening, if the Security Council is reformed and such a seat is created, Brazil is in a much better position to get it since it has a largest economy, has a military industry whereas Mexico does not, and is regarded as a more legitimate representative of their interests by Latin American countries because its foreign policy is pro-third world integration, whereas Mexico's foreign policy is very erratic and, in many instances, clearly aligned with the needs and wishes of the U.S., so giving Mexico the permanent seat would seem to many like a machination deviced solely to increase the U.S.'s influence at the Security Council level.

Clearly South America is not waiting for Mexico to realize that it is in the best interest of Mexicans to become closer with Latin America, and Brazil is leading the efforts to create stronger cultural, economic, trade and political links with or without Mexico's acquiesence. Mexico's absence from the South America-Arab countries summit of a few days ago is a clear indication that Mexico is not being considered by Brazil for such iniciatives. Same with BRIC (the Brazil-Russia-India-China axis that seeks to improve life quality through trade and investment)... the size of the Mexican economy and the fact that it is one of the top 10 exporters worldwide make it a very suitable member for this informal association, but again its deep-rooted ideas that China is a competitor that only takes jobs and investments away from Mexico and the interdependence with the U.S. makes it an unwelcome member.

Sorry from moving the discussion away from its original subject. I'll understand if someone requests deletion of my posts or closing of the thread, but it's interesting to see where this discussion is heading.

As for my flag Fyano, I am temporarily changing it to Brazil as a sign of my excitement that I will be in Brazil for the wedding of very dear friends next week, and as a token of my love and appreciation for such a wonderful country and its incredible inhabitants. After I come back to Mexico City I will change it back.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 11:25 am

Thanks Eddie, I did not know much about the whole picture. You make a very good and balanced point, welcome to my RU list!

Each country has to take into account their own economic reality, and there will inevitably be disagreements, but these can be easily worked out given our overall very good relations.

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Fyano773
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:03 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 11:44 am

OK Eddie, I got your point, you're just being critic to Mexico, that's wise.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 21):
Sorry from moving the discussion away from its original subject. I'll understand if someone requests deletion of my posts or closing of the thread, but it's interesting to see where this discussion is heading.

No problem, your post is very comprehensive, thanks for the info.

Regards,

Fyano
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 12:25 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
A lot of countries in S. America are not part of Mercosur. Some, like Chile, are not full members.

Chile and Bolivia are associate members, I believe both of them have applied for full integration. Not sure about Chile with it's US-Chile FTA.

Eddie, excellent post. Reflects my view of the situation. And you won't get flamed  Wink. It's opinion.

Welcome to my respected users list!

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD-11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Arcano
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 4:51 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 24):
Chile and Bolivia are associate members, I believe both of them have applied for full integration. Not sure about Chile with it's US-Chile FTA.

Chile doesn't, as Mercosur foreing trade policies are much closer than Chilean's. It's not a priority market anyway... Chile has claimed that for fully integration, mercosur shoud open the economy; to create and not divert commerce as it happens now between Argentina and Brazil. Creation vs. Diversion is a trade off that you have to pay attention before thinking of free trade agreement. The added value of Mercosur is not that big since there's little creation.

Actually, it's curious thay now with Peru and Venezuela, mercosur has more associated members than fully members. What that could mean?

Regards)(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 6:07 pm

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 14):
A lot of brazilians are arriving to Mexico with normal and legal tourist visas declaring they will be in Mexico for only a few days, but at the end they're staying in Mexico to work

I dont want to prolong the discussion, for which EddieDude already provided a balanced view, but some small remarks on the above post

Why Brazilian would travel to work illegally to Mexico IF: 1) they could travel to Europe, i.e. all of the EU members including the UK (Brazilians are not required VISA for Europe, and GRU-MEX ticket is about the same price of GRU-Europe): 2) they could travel to Chile, the richest country in the region, and for half of the ticket price (Brazilians are not required VISA for Chile as well).

This does not remove the credits of Mexico, which has a growing and robust economy, wonderful landscape, and beautiful people.

It is well documented in the Brazilian media that increasingly Brazilians are using Mexico as a step-stone to enter the US via the Mex-US border. However, it is also known that Brazilians comprise only 1% of this group, with the absolute majority being from Central America, for which Mexico does not ask a VISA.

No doubt, some measures needs to be taken to curb Brazilian illegal immigration with the intention to use Mexico to enter the US, as it could represent security problems for Mexico or lead to criminality, etc. But I personally think that imposing VISA is not the most appropriate way to tackle this issue, as it would hit hard tourism and business of both countries (which is booming!), not to mention create tension at the diplomatic level.

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 17):
Mexico is not upset with Brazil. Instead of insisting and going to the end of the resolution in order to get that place at the OAS, Mex F.M. decided to reject and decline in favor of Chile in order to conserve the calm in the region.

It was sure that the Mexican candidate could not win the election, especially after the US (reluctant) support for the Chilean candidate, who had managed to get the winning majority of votes.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 25):
Chile doesn't, as Mercosur foreing trade policies are much closer than Chilean's. It's not a priority market anyway...

Mercosul is priority for Chile (just see trade statistics), this is obvious, otherwise Chile would not be associate member.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 25):
Actually, it's curious thay now with Peru and Venezuela, mercosur has more associated members than fully members. What that could mean?

Others are expected to join as well. It means Mercosul, the third biggest economic bloc after NAFTA and EU, is growing bigger; agreements were also signed with India, South Africa, Gulf States, among others. The negotiations process of the Mercosul-EU agreement is also well under way, and would create a huge market.

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 19):
About the current topic, it's interesting how TAM has varied its products; for sure JJ will increase market share.

The fact that GOL is in advanced negotiations with SKy shows that TAM in the future will join OW - something that for now is not priority for TAM. Also, news for 2005 include: widebody (A330) for SCL as of June, and two daily flights as of 2006; JFK-GRU as of October; two daily GRU-CDG as of June; and possible new market under study for late 2005 GRU-LIM or GRU-CCS and MIA-GIG.

Rgs,

[Edited 2005-05-14 11:39:14]
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Sat May 14, 2005 7:18 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 25):
Chile has claimed that for fully integration, mercosur shoud open the economy; to create and not divert commerce as it happens now between Argentina and Brazil.

Argentina-Brazil is a classical example of trade creation. Just look at statistics. Of course, as with all major trade partners, where substantial volume of trade is a stake, there are problems and disagreements. But there is no doubt that Brazil-Argentina trade is indeed a vehicle for promoting investment and trade.


Quoting Arcano (Reply 25):
It's not a priority market anyway...

Chile's major trade partners, Dec/2003 data:

In this order: Rank/Country/Share in Chile's trade

1. United States 15%
2. Argentina 10%
3. China 8%
4. Brazil 7%
5. Japan 7%

All other trade partners represent less than 4% of Chile's foreign trade. Note that in 2004 there was a substantial increase of trade with Argentina and Brazil. [source: Chile Foreign Investment Committee].

Therefore, to state that Argentina and Brazil are both not priority for Chile is a profound mistake, or lack of understanding of Chile's trade pattern and priorities. Mercosul accounts for about 20% of Chile's total foreign trade, or 1/4 of the total. In fact, Chile is much more dependent on trade with Mercosul than the other way around. Mercosul is Chile's biggest bloc trade partner, before the NAFTA, the EU, or ASEAN; and second biggest regional trade partner,, second only to Asia (if Asia is considered as a whole).

Rgs,
edit:typos

[Edited 2005-05-14 12:56:59]
 
Arcano
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 16, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
Mercosul is priority for Chile (just see trade statistics), this is obvious, otherwise Chile would not be associate member.

No, it's not at all. As copper, the fact that copper is our largest export, the priority is it develop other products. The lack of stability of Argentina and Brazil economy makes that the priority is to look for more demanding stable markets. If it was somehow priority, Chile would have match Mercosur standards, and instead, which it's not going to happen. Trust me, I've studied in Chile most important business and economics school, and I know from the first row listening the guys that actually drives Chilean economy that Mercosur is not priority.
Remember this guy, last march, I don't remember if it was the President of the FMI or not, that stated that "Mercosur has failed as an economy integration and development

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
Argentina-Brazil is a classical example of trade creation. Just look at statistics

Wrong, it's not creation, pure deviation. It's an actual case of study how Mercosur was created for Brazil and Argentina to support their markets, with no global net trade creation. What statistics? that the trade between them both grew? Buddy, thats pure deviation of commerce. Study first, understand the concepts, post later.

Have you study foreign economics? do you know the difference between Creation and Deviation of trade due to the Free trade agreement, based mostly in after you erase duties, the exchange price can be lower than the one offered by a third country that can be more efficient, but as their products get taxed, It can't compete. So, the trade grows between the two members, but there's no creation since the third country, the more efficient, gets out of the equation. This happens when countries moves against their natural comparative (not competitive) advantages.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
Therefore, to state that Argentina and Brazil are both not priority for Chile is a profound mistake

No, it's not. It's a matter of strategy to change current situations to optimal situatios. Again, if it was priority, Chile would change towards Mercosur. We did exact the opposite.

Regards!
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Cubsrule
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 16, 2005 4:19 am

People within MERCOSUR (member governments) have conceded that if it does not evolve, it will disappear. If I can find the quote, I'll post it.

Given the changes in Chilean trade over the past 18 months (most notably the free trade agreement with the U.S. but also the rapid evolution of trade with East Asia), I don't think it's safe to try to conclude anything from December, 2003 trade numbers. I know that Chilean exports to the U.S, for example, increased between 40 and 50% in Calendar 2004.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 16, 2005 4:40 am

Just to clear some confusion:

-Mexico and Venezuela BOTH got ACCEPTED as associate members of MERCOSUR a couple of months ago.

- Before Mexico being an associate member of MERCOSUR, their only integration effort with S. America was with Colombia and Venezuela. Mex-Col-Ven comprise the G-3. I don't know details of this G-3 but I do know that cars imported from Mexico (mainly Volskwagen) pay little or no taxes.

- Regarding MERCOSUR. It is indeed a large market, but that integration project lacks institutions and a real free trade. On the other side of S. America we have the Andean Community, which has established institutions like the Andean Parliament and the Andean Court of Justice but we lack a customs union. Now with the creation of the South American Community of Nations and the signing of a free trade agreement between the Andean Community and MERCOSUR, I believe S.America is headed in the right track towards true/real integration. Of course, LOTS of work still have to be done, but if Europe did it a couple of decades ago, why can't we?

PS: I would add Eddie to my RU users list for that post, but I can't add him twice since he's already part of my list  Wink
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 16, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 28):
As copper, the fact that copper is our largest export

This shows how vulnerable is Chile economy, and how unimportant it is for Brazil and Argentina. Chile is trying to diversify its economy out of copper, but copper (a raw material) still dominates Chile's exports. Demand for copper is limited in both Argentina and Brazil.

On the other hand, Chile largely depends for 20% of its foreign trade on Mercosul. This is a fact, not theory.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 28):
Have you study foreign economics?

I have worked for the World Trade Organization.

Rgs,
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6241
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 16, 2005 10:28 am

Luis, thanks a lot for the comment. And thanks for the clarification. I recall very well the announcement of the application but I had no idea that the admission had already taken place. As for G-3, I think they have some foreign trade reciprocal benefits but mostly the association is more of a goodwill nature than something aiming for real integration.
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Arcano
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 16, 2005 11:03 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 31):
This shows how vulnerable is Chile economy, and how unimportant it is for Brazil and Argentina.

Have you take a look at the last ranking of competitive economics? Please do, see where Chile ranks and, let's say, the UK, Germany and Brazil. And you dare to say that Chile is vulnerable... we globally rank 19th, and 1st in the list of developing countries (less than US10000GDP per capita). Were are Mercosur members?

Chile is that stable that while the whole continent was in jeopardy 5 years ago, we? nothing...

And exactly, Chile is nothing for Argentina and Brazil, this is why there's no point at all in us getting full members in Mercosur, we just don't care buddy, does it hurt that much?
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Cubsrule
Posts: 11516
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 16, 2005 11:11 am

Hardiwv- You're trying to equate the fact that Chile is primarily a primary product exporter with lack of economic success. In Chile's case, it just doesn't work. In most cases worldwide, it does, and a lot of IPE theory is based on it (perhaps most relevantly in this part of the world, Raul Prebisch's center-periphery theory has it as an underlying assumption). However, Chile is the exception, not the rule. Also, trading with MERCOSUR members is certainly not equivalent to being dependent on them. Most buses on the road in Chile are Brazillian. Does that mean that Chile has to buy Brazillian buses or hell will freeze over? Nope.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 16, 2005 12:25 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 33):
And exactly, Chile is nothing for Argentina and Brazil, this is why there's no point at all in us getting full members in Mercosur, we just don't care buddy, does it hurt that much?

I don't think that it's because Chile doesn't care, but because Mercosur is an undeniable mess. Just keep your eyes on the news and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34):
Also, trading with MERCOSUR members is certainly not equivalent to being dependent on them. Most buses on the road in Chile are Brazillian. Does that mean that Chile has to buy Brazilian buses or hell will freeze over? Nope.

Maybe not dependent, but if 20% of their trade is with mercosur, it's pretty close. Plus, mercosur is a huge market for Chile, take a look at LAN, ABSA (Cargo airline based in Brazil but owned by Chileans) and ENAER (manufactures empenages for the ERJ-145 & 135 for Embraer).

As a whole, Chile is more stable than the rest of the continent. But, they still need us for their economic well being. 20% of foreign trade is significant.

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 16, 2005 2:35 pm

In my opinion, Chile will be in a bad position if the rest of the continent truly integrates with the proposed merger of MERCOSUR and the Andean Community. If that happens, I really doubt that Chile will opt to stay outside of that market.

Currently, Chavez is buying conciences around Latin America using his best weapon: OIL. That's what made Lula and Kirchner convince Paraguay and Uruguay to let us join MERCOSUR as an associate member. When Chavez announced his interested in joining MERCOSUR, Colombia was pissed off when they found out that we had been negociating our entry in MERCOSUR at their backs. Colombia's position is that if any Andean country wants to enter another trade bloc, the whole Andean Community should negociate their simultaneous entry. I completely agree with the Colombian opinion.

When both Colombia and Ecuador realized that more than half of the Andean Community was an associate member of MERCOSUR, they joined efforts to negociate a free trade agreement between both blocs. They signed it on December 31st 2004 IIRC. If this integration trend countinues on the right track, we will see both MERCOSUR and Andean Community disappear in favor of the newly created South American Community of Nations. Chile is a member of this new Community, so I think they will also join a free trade area/custom union if it actually gets created. I fail to see any harm to Chile if they join.

Well that's my opinion... feel free to voice your opinion regarding my point of view.
 
ArgInMIA
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 4:07 pm

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Mon May 16, 2005 4:39 pm

Well I agree that Mercosur was basically created just for Brazil and Argentina..
Chile is more into the US markets and will stay that way for some time.. Arcano.. I do disagree on what you say that Chile is impervious to its neighbor's problems.. Just remember all the rumors that where out there when Argentina's economy went to a pit.. And remember the dollar at 740 pesos back then.. But yes.. U guys dont live out of mercosur members at all.. U do shop around mercosur for your products.. But this actually gives you control.. Cause if you dont like it u could buy to other countries.. (Like the busses.. If u dont buy Brazilian u can buy German or whatever..) and since your exports are most to other places.. I dont see a lot of dependence on mercosur..
Alto.. Mucho mas alto.. hasta la cumbre
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11516
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Tue May 17, 2005 3:44 am

One more observation... The recalcitrance of the U.S. senate regarding Chile's entry into NAFTA a few years back was, in my opinion, a blessing in disguise for Chile as Chile is better off with three bilaterals than being in NAFTA. The same might be true for MERCOSUR.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Tue May 17, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 36):
If that happens, I really doubt that Chile will opt to stay outside of that market.

The one basic difference between mercosur full integration and associated memership for Chile is duties; Chile has a flat duty for imported goods of 6%, intended to be 5% and 4% shortly. This was the key in Chile sucessful economy and current competitive situation, we are orienting the economy to the service and foreign trade.

Hence, to try to match mercosur by rising duties seems almost impossible under the current and the most likely scenarios, unless for some reason I could not imagine we decided to look back and close the economy again.

And it's true, we reached 740 pesos per dollar, but being stable does not mean being untouchable; it's to absorve impacts and not fall. With that dollar speculation (which at last time that was it) our open economy didn't collapse, and the GDP barely droped for 1 years (less than 1%).

Chile surely gain with trade with Mercosur, adn we do need them, but it doesn't mean we want to join them, since under the current sutuation thinks work. See the Free trade agenda to come for us: New Zealand, Singapore almost done, India and China. Only Peru scheduled in the medium term in South America, and let's be honest, it's not a matter of trade, just a matter of integration.

Regards, interesting post for "non sviation" anyway!
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Fyano773
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:03 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Tue May 17, 2005 3:38 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 21):
You make a very good and balanced point



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
for which EddieDude already provided a balanced view

I wonder if this is really a balanced post since it has highlighted bad (negative) things of Mexico's foreign policies. In fact, it's partially true; if you remember, Mexico didn't support US in the Iraq issue, therefore, Mexico's stance isn't clearly aligned to the wishes and needs of US...

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
welcome to my RU list!



Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 24):
Welcome to my respected users list!



Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 30):
I would add Eddie to my RU users list for that post

No offense, but I'm afraid you guys have been seduced by a couple of paragraphs, that are very complete (as I mentioned above), but biased, given the excitement shown for Brazil by mon vieux a.netter...

A little on topic,

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
The fact that GOL is in advanced negotiations with SKy shows that TAM in the future will join OW

It seems LAN & TAM have strengthen relations; see article below (SPA/POR, sorry if this has been posted before):

El doble frente de LAN - Tras hablar y hablar de la entrada a Argentina de LanChile –perdón, LAN, como dice su nuevo manual de imagen corporativa–, muchos olvidaron el antiguo interés de la chilena por ingresar a Brasil. Pero mientras su entrada al duro mercado argentino parecía concretarse (al cierre de esta edición, la aerolínea chilena cerraba un acuerdo con el gobierno para incorporar por tres años a los empleados de la estatal Lafsa y asociarse por 90 días con Southern Winds, a cambio de tener acceso al mercado de cabotaje local), algunos ya especulaban sobre su aterrizaje en el mayor mercado de América Latina. El novio ya tendría nombre: TAM. Y es que desde la muerte de Rolim Amaro, el fundador de la aerolínea brasileña, ambas compañías coquetean. “Con la costa del Pacífico dominada, TAM es por lejos la mejor alternativa para entrar a Brasil”, dice un ex ejecutivo de LAN. “En conjunto, ambas compañías han analizado la posibilidad”. Aunque el mercado se sorprende, el rumor de noviazgo suena interesante. “Ambas empresas tienen una estrategia común, a diferencia de otras aerolíneas brasileñas, como Gol, Vasp y Varig”, dice Carlos Eduardo Albano, analista de Unibanco, en São Paulo. “TAM, además, carece de flexibilidad financiera para crecer como quisiera”. Al igual que en Argentina, la asociación con un local sería la mejor entrada, aunque la ley sólo le permitiría tener el 20%.



A dupla tacada da LAN - Depois de falar e falar da chegada na Argentina da LanChile — ou melhor, LAN, como determina seu novo manual de imagem corporativa —, muitos esqueceram o antigo interesse da chilena de entrar no Brasil. Enquanto sua chegada no duro mercado argentino parecia concretizar-se (no fechamento desta edição, a companhia chilena fechava um acordo para participar da Southern Winds, colocando fim a uma série de tentativas fracassadas de ingresso no país), alguns já especulavam sobre sua aterrissagem no maior mercado latino-americano. E o noivo já teria nome: TAM. É que, desde a morte de Rolim Amaro, fundador da empresa brasileira, as companhias estão flertando. “Com a costa do Pacífico dominada, a TAM é de longe a melhor alternativa para a entrada no Brasil”, diz um ex-executivo da LAN. “Em conjunto, ambas analisaram essa possibilidade.” Ainda que o mercado se surpreenda, o rumor do noivado soa interessante. “As empresas têm uma estratégia comum, diferentemente de outras companhias brasileiras como GOL e Varig”, diz Carlos Eduardo Albano, analista do Unibanco em São Paulo. “Além disso, a TAM carece de flexibilidade financeira para crescer como deseja.” Da mesma forma que na Argentina, a associação com uma empresa local seria a melhor alternativa, mesmo que a legislação permita somente 20% de participação.

Source: América Economía

Now that LAN is doing well and TAM heading towards OW, this alliance will lead in the region and It seems that MX will also join them.

Fyano
 
EMB195ER
Topic Author
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:31 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Tue May 17, 2005 7:35 pm

Good morning guys!

Did I miss something here?

What is the source of this information about GOL being in advanced negotiations with Sky? and TAM and LAN working closely?

hugs,

EMB195ER
 
erikwilliam
Posts: 2122
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Tue May 17, 2005 8:43 pm

If true, and with LANArgentina about to start, TAM will probably Join OneWorld. They´re too close to AA, getting closer to LA, and getting away from AF, so....

I´ve read an interview with Marco Bologna, Tam´s president, he said they´ll join an alliance in 05, but it´s something that have to be very precise, because it involves too much variants. Gotta wait and see.
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
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RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Wed May 18, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 40):
I wonder if this is really a balanced post since it has highlighted bad (negative) things of Mexico's foreign policies.

How is it highlighted with negative comments about Mexico? Eddie outlined a difference in priorities between Mexico and mercosur. Mexico has NAFTA, a much more important (and certainly a major priority) trading block to worry about.

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
EMBTucano
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 1:34 pm

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Wed May 18, 2005 3:17 am

Back to the original topic:

Clearly it is nicer to eat with real silverware, but my question is:
What is the percentage of pax that would choose these or that airline by the silverware/plates they offer and not by the ticket price?  scratchchin 

Cheers
EMBTucano
---- Use GNU/LINUX and be free! ----
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Wed May 18, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting EMBTucano (Reply 44):
What is the percentage of pax that would choose these or that airline by the silverware/plates they offer and not by the ticket price?

The current competition on SCL-GRU is very tough, so airlines have to establish value added which something are fringe elements. It will also distinguish TAM's service from the other airlines on this market.

Rgs,
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6241
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Wed May 18, 2005 3:11 pm

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 40):
I wonder if this is really a balanced post since it has highlighted bad (negative) things of Mexico's foreign policies. In fact, it's partially true; if you remember, Mexico didn't support US in the Iraq issue, therefore, Mexico's stance isn't clearly aligned to the wishes and needs of US...



Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 40):
paragraphs, that are very complete (as I mentioned above), but biased, given the excitement shown for Brazil by mon vieux a.netter

Don't get me wrong. Mexico is my country, I love it dearly and above any other country, and I feel proud of being Mexican and of the good things that you can find in Mexico and that happen here. I assure you I am not biased. No matter how much I like Brazil and admire Brazilians (by the way, after Mexico, my two favorite countries are Germany and Brazil), I will always highlight the great things we have here that our large South American fellow country does not, such as investment grade sovereign debt ratings, lower country risk, a higher GDP per capita, a more export-oriented economy, etcetera. But I think we need to be honest when discussing these issues and, quite frankly, our foreign policy is erratic and unfortunate, and oneself's citizenship, political preferences and degree of patriotism notwithstanding, that is something that can't be denied. You well mention how Mexico was against the U.S. regarding the Iraq issue (for starters, I wrote that our policy was aligned with theirs in many instances, but I was never talking in absolute terms) but that just goes to show how a stupid team of wannabe diplomats decided they would play the card of self-righteousness to show what an independent foreign policy we have and, in the process, they shot themselves on the foot. Sure, I am against the war in Iraq and recognize that it took a lot of courage from Fox to instruct the then-chancellor and the then-delegate at the Security Council to be firm about the Mexican position, but it was a big mistake from a pragmatic point of view because with or without our acquiesence the U.S. went ahead and the self-righteousness and sense of pacifism of our government only achieved Bush's immediate anger and months of indifference and distance. Since then, if you pay close attention, the Mexican government has danced at the pace that Bush and Ms. Rice have set, and the retirement of Derbez' candidacy and the votes against Cuba with respect to human rights matters in world forums are just a couple of signs of that.

With respect to NAFTA, Mercosur, ALCA and the proposed community of South American nations, Mexico is in a very difficult position now because NAFTA is no longer providing all the great benefits that it used to provide before (although there is now encouragement from former Ambassador James Jones that the NAFTA countries should form a customs union to better compete with China). On the other hand, with NAFTA in effect, Mexico is unable in practice to become a full Mercosur member and is obviously not seen as a trade ally by most South American countries because when it comes to trade issues, Brazil and the U.S. are clearly in confrontation, and Mexico as a party to NAFTA seems more closely aligned with the U.S. in terms of Panamerican foreign trade matters. As I said, Mexico has gotten itself into an awkward position of estrangement from the rest of Latin America (with "benefits" such as having its economy in sync with the U.S. economic cycles, and with disadvantages such as the OAS event, the failure from Brazil to invite us to the Arab nations-South America summit, etcetera).

As I discussed above, in all honesty and without being biased, I sincerely hope that the next administration's people in charge of our foreign policy can behave in a congruous manner and without making so many mistakes that not only anger me and most Mexicans, but also embarass us and give our government a bad reputation overseas. A substantial part of our foreign policy makeover should be the creation of stronger ties with the rest of Latin America and the pursuit of shared and coordinated leadership of the region with Brazil.

I will be absent from a.net almost a whole week since I fly tomorrow to GRU finally. Hopefully a.netters will not take advantage of my absence to flame me and destroy me for sharing these thoughts.
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luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Wed May 18, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 46):
As I discussed above, in all honesty and without being biased, I sincerely hope that the next administration's people in charge of our foreign policy can behave in a congruous manner and without making so many mistakes that not only anger me and most Mexicans, but also embarass us and give our government a bad reputation overseas.

Eddie sometimes the medicine is worst than the desease (a veces es peor el remedio que la enfermedad), I just hope you guys in Mexico don't elect Lopez Obrador as your next president. The last thing Latin America needs is another Mr. Chavez. We Venezuelans have suffered a lot because of his govertment, many have regretted that they voted for Chavez in 1999, now it's too late... I just hope that you guys won't be in the same situation in 2010 as we are right now.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Wed May 18, 2005 11:43 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 47):
I just hope you guys in Mexico don't elect Lopez Obrador as your next president

I see him more as Lula rather than Chavez. And the whole continent is leaning towards left - with the exception of Colombia.

Rgs,
 
EMB195ER
Topic Author
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:31 am

RE: TAM Upgrading Onboard Service To EZE And SCL

Fri May 20, 2005 4:02 am

Guys,

I just got to know that someone from JJ is travelling to Brussels, Italy, France, Spain, Germany, and UK. This is a technical trip and the guy is visiting these places to see some softwares.

Could it be any indication of JJ moving to some alliance???

Hugs,