dhefty
Posts: 587
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 8:04 am

Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 7:58 am

Air France/KLM is the world's largest airline in terms of numbers of active long-haul aircraft as follows (Source: Airfleets):

B747 = 58
B777 = 43 (+12 on order)
A330 = 15 (+8 on order)
A340 = 21
B767 = 11
MD11 = 10
A380 = 0 (+10 on order)

Total = 158 active (+30 on order)

My question to all you snoozing sycophants is this- will Air France/KLM choose the B787? And if so, will it be sooner rather than later? Or will they opt for the A350 or even additional A330's?

Let's face it: Air France/KLM are seen as trend-setters and have a very independent management. They always seem to select the best product for a given route, without political consideration. And even more amazingly, they pulled off the KLM buyout without a hitch. So far their numbers look outstanding.

Start scribbling!
 
jwenting
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 3:38 pm

The MD11s and 767s are on the way out, being replaced by A330s and 777s.
Except for those the fleet is young (and even the "old" aircraft are only 10-15 years old), I don't see a replacement for any of them being ordered for deliver in another decade at least.
Fleet consolidation will then likely see the 747s and 777s being replaced by more Airbusses, just like all light blue paint will be replaced by white for the same reason.
I wish I were flying
 
mrcomet
Posts: 575
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 5:09 pm

Fleet commonality doesn't appear to be an issue with these guys so I expect they'll eventually buy 787s to replace the 767s unless Airbus has legitimate competition by then.

Of course, boards change directors all the time and you never know when any airline can change philosophy.
The dude abides
 
Udo
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 5:18 pm

Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
Fleet commonality doesn't appear to be an issue with these guys so I expect they'll eventually buy 787s to replace the 767s unless Airbus has legitimate competition by then.

Commonality is an issue for the joint fleets of AF and KL. And KL's B767 will be replaced by A332, that's definite. Don't expect a B787 by AF/KL within the next ten years. They have other priorities first.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: DMM: Same As Dharhan?

Sun May 08, 2005 6:26 pm

AF is trendsetting insofar that they have ordered all new Airbus models, but that maybe a government thing!
KL is very conservative in choosing new a/c and will never order a type that hasn't been proved.
Now that the AF/KL merger is a fact things may change of course. That can only be good for KL!
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
eha
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:35 pm

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 6:39 pm

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 4):
AF is trendsetting insofar that they have ordered all new Airbus models, but that maybe a government thing!

Mitigate the governement thing today for AF...As far as I know they haven't ordered A340-500,-600, and they build up a fleet of more than 40 777. The only "political" choice might have been the A318...

Concerning KLM, they have 6+18 A330-200 on orders. So in addition to their 777, I am not sure both companies will order 787 in the next years.

E.
 
Leskova
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 6:46 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 1):
Fleet consolidation will then likely see the 747s and 777s being replaced by more Airbusses

What gives you the impression that the B777s will be replaced by Airbusses?

Air France does not seem to be in anything even resembling a hurry to get their B747s or B777s out of the fleet - especially when regarding the fact that they have examples (even if just one B747, and I think that's a freighter) of both still on order?

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
eha
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:35 pm

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 6:54 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):
What gives you the impression that the B777s will be replaced by Airbusses?

I agree, to the contrary, I believe KLM and AF will have one of the strongest 777 fleet worldwide...AF is extremely pleased with the A/C...If only the 777-300ER could take-off and land at Orly  Smile

With A330,777,A380, they are equipped well enough for their long-haul operations...The odd man out could even be the A340 in there eventually...
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1498
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 8:05 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 3):
Don't expect a B787 by AF/KL within the next ten years. They have other priorities first.

Yep, they do! KLM is going to need to replace it's narrowbody fleet of B737-300/-400' first before adding more widebodies to it's fleet.

Quoting Eha (Reply 7):
I agree, to the contrary, I believe KLM and AF will have one of the strongest 777 fleet worldwide...AF is extremely pleased with the A/C

KLM is also very pleased with their B777's, so I don't think they will replace them anytime soon with other aircrafts.

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 8:17 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
My question to all you snoozing sycophants is this- will Air France/KLM choose the B787? And if so, will it be sooner rather than later? Or will they opt for the A350 or even additional A330's?

I don't see them ordering A350's unless the aircraft physically proves itself first, so maybe not this decade... I think the same about the 787 however if they are looking to replace widebodies such as the 767's, MD-11's etc. and looking to do so with a non-777 aircraft then they would want to jump on the 787 before the plane becomes hard to get in a reasonable amount of time!

I suspect that this descision will not be made for quite some time.

Quoting Udo (Reply 3):
Don't expect a B787 by AF/KL within the next ten years. They have other priorities first.

Indeed they have other priorities first, but they will start evaluating soon, if not already.

Quoting Eha (Reply 5):
Concerning KLM, they have 6+18 A330-200 on orders. So in addition to their 777, I am not sure both companies will order 787 in the next years.

I don't see those A330 options being converted when/if the A350 project goes ahead. Converting options for an outdated plane will only be useful if they need the planes quickly, which they probably don't at the moment. We will see how they go once they get the first one!

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 8):
Yep, they do! KLM is going to need to replace it's narrowbody fleet of B737-300/-400' first before adding more widebodies to it's fleet.

Generally, you don't replace narrowbodies with widebodies. Especially KLM/AF. Both airlines simply don't need to. Their short haul routes are served much more efficiently by running frequent narrowbodies than less frequent services with larger types. They definately won't replace 737's with 787's... that will be the realm of the 737NNG or the A320NG!
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1498
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 8:22 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 9):
Generally, you don't replace narrowbodies with widebodies. Especially KLM/AF. Both airlines simply don't need to. Their short haul routes are served much more efficiently by running frequent narrowbodies than less frequent services with larger types. They definately won't replace 737's with 787's... that will be the realm of the 737NNG or the A320NG!

That's what I said. They will first add new 737's or A32X's to their fleet before any new widebody will be ordered.

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 8:25 pm

I can't see AF giving up their 777s. They are their flagships. How many airlines have gone from 777 to A340?
 
columba
Posts: 5045
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 8:28 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 8):
Yep, they do! KLM is going to need to replace it's narrowbody fleet of B737-300/-400' first before adding more widebodies to it's fleet.

Since AF is going for an all Airbus narrow body fleet -with the exception of the 737-500 that will likely be gone soon and replaced with A318/A319.
Could it be that KLM will also replace their 737-300/-400 with A320 and sooner or later the NGs as well to have commonality with the AF short/medium haul fleet. They already have commanlity with their widebodies 747/777 and A330.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 8:36 pm

I do not think that AF/KL will be ordering the 787 or A350 in the near-term future......KL has not even started receiving its A332s yet so it is not yet thinking about another type in more or less the same class. Over at AF, maybe the A359 could replace the A343 over the long term, if AF determined that it made sense to have an aircraft slot between the A332 and B772.....the A332/B777 combination is still a rather effective combination for longhaul.

There are still many open issues concerning the A350 program - the most important one being is will the A350 replace the A330/A342/A343 or will the new type supplement the current airliners? So much depends on what the A350 develops into (exact size and range options) and how Airbus transitions from the A330/A342/A343 to the A350. Airbus has a difficult marketing issue to content with - will the launch of the A350 make the older airliners obsolete?
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 8:42 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 10):
That's what I said. They will first add new 737's or A32X's to their fleet before any new widebody will be ordered.

Yeah sorry, i didn't mean to suggest that I was correcting you. I kinda misread your post. Apologies for that!  Wink
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5186
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 8:46 pm

Air France has published in an internal newspaper that the airline is studying both the A350 and the B787. This a/c type is interesting for AF's African and Middle east network.
As fleet commonality is very important in AF's strategy, I would see the A350 as a favorite but remember that AF has always been a very loyal Boeing customer since the early 50's (the B737 was even preferred to Dassault Mercure in the 70's), and if Airbus is clearly preferred for the short/medium haul fleet, Boeing has always been preferred for the long haul fleet (except the A343, but AF didn't have he choice at that time).

Concerning the long-haul fleet, Some B744 PAX from AF's fleet should be converted into Freighters but some B744 PAX will remain in the fleet.

The next a/c programmed to leave the fleet in a medium term is the A343 (1 a/c has already been sold, F-GLZB). They will be replaced by additional A332 and B777 as AF is very pleased by these two a/c types.

The AFKL's long haul fleet will be soon very simple :

A380, B744, B777, A332 and A350/B787.

Next year, AF's Short/Medium haul fleet will be even more simple : A318, A319, A320, A321. One aircraft family will cover all the needs in terms of capacity, from 123 seats for the A318 to 206 seats with the A321 (domestic all Y config).
Only 14 B735 are still in service with AF and they should all be retired by the end of 2006.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 14):
Apologies for that!

No problemo!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2256
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 9:59 pm

Perhaps the combined AF/KLM grup will put off a joint A32X/737 replacement strategy until Boeing and Airbus come up with new offerings early in the next decade.

Would seem to make sense.
 
eha
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:35 pm

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 10:19 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 16):
The AFKL's long haul fleet will be soon very simple :

A380, B744, B777, A332 and A350/B787.

Nothing against that plan, except that I see 744 out of the picture few years down the line after A380 EIS. But still 35 A34X to get rid of.

E.
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1498
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Sun May 08, 2005 11:19 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 17):
Perhaps the combined AF/KLM grup will put off a joint A32X/737 replacement strategy until Boeing and Airbus come up with new offerings early in the next decade.

Probably yes, but the their will be a very strict timeplan. A new B737 or A32X will be in service around 2010-2012 and that can be too late for KLM's old B737's.

Maybe they will be a launch customer for a new B737NNG or A320XNG.

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5186
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 12:44 am

Quoting Eha (Reply 18):
But still 35 A34X to get rid of.

35 ??? KL doesen't operate the A343 and AF had 22. 21, now tht F-GLZB is gone....
 
dhefty
Posts: 587
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 3):
Don't expect a B787 by AF/KL within the next ten years.

Okay, Udo. I've got my day-timer programmed to awaken on May 8, 2015. Until then, I do not expect any Air France/KLM orders for the B787 or A350. If your estimate should change, let me know!
 
Udo
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 21):
Okay, Udo. I've got my day-timer programmed to awaken on May 8, 2015. Until then, I do not expect any Air France/KLM orders for the B787 or A350. If your estimate should change, let me know!

Really? You will expect the same because I said so? I feel honored, but be free in your thoughts!  Wink


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
jwenting
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 4):
KL is very conservative in choosing new a/c and will never order a type that hasn't been proved.

Every Fokker airliner ever built (that's from the 1920s onwards), 747-200, DC-2, DC-5, DC-6, DC-7, DC-8, MD-11, 737-900, I'm sure there are many others.
KLM is in fact a frequent launch customer but they're not in the habit of buying an aircraft just because it's there.
If KLM were looking for something in the 787 class at this time and weren't under orders from paris they'd seriously consider the aircraft.
As it is paris decides what gets bought and they have no more say.

Quoting Eha (Reply 7):
agree, to the contrary, I believe KLM and AF will have one of the strongest 777 fleet worldwide...AF is extremely pleased with the A/C...If only the 777-300ER could take-off and land at Orly

I was not talking about NOW but about in 15 years when the 744 and 772 are up for replacement (or at least for ordering replacements).
I fully expect the situation to be thus by then that ordering non-European aircraft will be impossible (or at least inconceivable) for a European airline for political reasons (trade war, government control, whatever).
I wish I were flying
 
N1120A
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 1):
The MD11s and 767s are on the way out

KL has stated that the MD-11s will be in the fleet till at least 2010-2012

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 1):
Fleet consolidation will then likely see the 747s and 777s being replaced by more Airbusses,

Not likely considering AF just ordered more 77Ws and KL's 772ERs are still brand new.

Quoting Eha (Reply 7):
If only the 777-300ER could take-off and land at Orly

It can, they just need to make sure the paving is strong enough for it all the time

Quoting Eha (Reply 18):
Nothing against that plan, except that I see 744 out of the picture few years down the line after A380 EIS.

Those birds are there for 2 different missions now, so it will not be that soon.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
mauriceb
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 5:32 am

i still think AFKL will replace the 737-300/400/500 and even 800/900's with A319/20/21 for both fleets.....

still going on my theorie:

Transavia , now a full Daughter of AF, will fly in france in the future, as AF wan't them as theire LCC in france , but since they already have a plane shortage, they will need atleast another 20 737-800's and even 900's to start, and become a well known LCC. in France. So now i thought, maybe KL can replace theire Whole 737 fleet, with A319/20/21's to get the same shorthaul fleet as AF, so that HV can pick up KL's 737-800's/900's for expension...


as for the 787? Maybe a good MD-11 replacement. Since the MD-11 mainly fly's on the short-long haul flights, it would make sense to replace them in 2012 with 787-900's, since they don't need ultra long range planes to replace them. untill today, KL still states that it will retire its MD-11 fleet in 2012, but untill now, they only orderd enought aircraft to replace the 747-300 and 767's, and they wan't to expand.... so i say , unlike Udo, that the A350/787 may come sooner than the 10 years expected...
 
dhefty
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 22):
Really? You will expect the same because I said so? I feel honored, but be free in your thoughts!

The free-thought part of me has been looking at AF/KL for some time. AF was a money-losing operation a few years ago and trailed BA and LH by a wide margin. They have also soared past all US carriers in numbers of long-haul aircraft. Now it is the most successful of the three big EU carriers, primarily due to building up a modern long-haul fleet with B747, B777, A380, A330 and A340, and merging with KLM. It looks like they want to accelerate their position in long-haul over short-haul. Therefore I deem it highly likely that they will consider the B787 and A350 in the near future.
 
N1120A
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 5:38 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 25):
Since the MD-11 mainly fly's on the short-long haul flights, it would make sense to replace them in 2012 with 787-900's, since they don't need ultra long range planes to replace them.

The 789 has a range of 8300 nm, which will make it the fourth longest range plane in the world.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
atmx2000
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
The 789 has a range of 8300 nm, which will make it the fourth longest range plane in the world.

Fifth, after 772Lr, A345, A358, 788.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
dhefty
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 8:22 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 19):
Maybe they will be a launch customer for a new B737NNG or A320XNG

Will they be the launch customer for the B777F?
 
N1120A
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 8:28 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 28):
Fifth, after 772Lr, A345, A358, 788.

the A358 has a proposed range of 8000 nm, which is under both the 788's 8500 and the 789's 8300. And that is only if Airbus does not have the same problems it has had with every widebody except the A332, missing range targets.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
atmx2000
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
the A358 has a proposed range of 8000 nm

The number I saw before was 8600nm. When did this change?
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
N1120A
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 8:32 am

Never mind, some publications say it is up to 8600nm. Still, that is very unlikely

[Edited 2005-05-09 01:33:36]
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
the A358 has a proposed range of 8000 nm, which is under both the 788's 8500 and the 789's 8300.

I was also working under the impression that the A350-800 would feature 8,600 nm of range. Though you may be right, 8,000 nm would be a safe bet for what actually leaves the tarmac  duck 

http://www.eads.net/frame/lang/en/80...F00000000400004/3/82/33205823.html

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 29):
Will they be the launch customer for the B777F?

In all likelyhood, yes.
 
N1120A
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 33):
Though you may be right, 8,000 nm would be a safe bet for what actually leaves the tarmac

I would bet more on 7500nm based on the problems they had with the A342/343 Big grin

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 33):
Quoting Dhefty (Reply 29):
Will they be the launch customer for the B777F?

In all likelyhood, yes.

I can see BR, LH and UPS joining them
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
atmx2000
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 8:49 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
I would bet more on 7500nm based on the problems they had with the A342/343 

I'm sure they've learned something in the last 20 years
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 35):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
I would bet more on 7500nm based on the problems they had with the A342/343

I'm sure they've learned something in the last 20 years

Apparently not, considering what happened with the A345/346
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Mon May 09, 2005 9:26 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
I can see BR, LH and UPS joining them

Yep, as I stated in another thread, LH is close to signing a deal. UPS is almost surely going to buy these aircraft. Next thing that comes to my mind is will FedEx be far behind?
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: Air France/KLM And The B787

Fri May 13, 2005 3:19 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 23):
KLM is in fact a frequent launch customer but they're not in the habit of buying an aircraft just because it's there.

In saying KL is conservative in her a/c choice I was just quoting KL CEO Peter Hartman... Times have changed.

AS was launch customer of the B739 right?
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!

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