monteycarlos
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QF And EK To Do Battle?

Sun May 08, 2005 10:34 pm

http://finance.news.com.au/story/0,10166,15119930-462,00.html

Seems like EK has put the word on QF to come out and compete directly.

"So far it seems to be succeeding: Emirates grew its capacity in the financial year ending March 31 by 30 per cent and now has a fleet of 76 aircraft, including six freighters.

Surprisingly, it grew while boosting its load factor -- the percentage of seats filled on its aircraft by paying passengers -- by more than one point to 74.6 per cent.

Emirates has the advantage of a young fleet with a mix of Airbus A320-200s, A340-300s and A340-500s, as well as Boeing 777-300s, 777-300ERs and 777-200s recording an average age of 55 months.

A $US19 billion ($24 billion) aircraft order will see its fleet top 150 aircraft -- including 45 of the new A380s, which will make it the world's biggest operator of the super jumbo -- as new deliveries arrive at the rate of one a month for the next eight years.

Emirates this week also announced its 17th consecutive profit with a new record for the group of $US708 million for the year ending March 31, and revealed it had $US2.2 billion in cash.

That was a 49 per cent increase on the previous year and headlined a slew of double-digit increases ranging from a 36 per cent rise in group revenue to a 27 per cent increase in freight tonnage.

The airline received 240,000 job applications last financial year as it boosted staff levels from 22,500 to 25,000.

Its employees come from 124 counties with more than 100 nationalities represented among 56,000 cabin crew and 60 among its 1135 flight crew.

It is spending $US353 million to build the world's biggest A380 maintenance facility and one of the biggest aviation maintenance facilities in the world.
"

Mention also made of an upcoming EK order.

A couple of questions:

If EK buy the A350, do people see that affecting the upcoming QF widebody order?

Do QF need to start matching EK in some of the vital european routes?
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
dutchjet
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Sun May 08, 2005 10:59 pm

EK certainly has its eye on traffic between Europe and Australia and New Zealand, and EK became much more competitive when the A345 allowed EK to fly nonstop between its DXB hub and SYD and/or MEL, thus allowing one stop service between European and Australian cities, just like QF (and SQ) do via SIN. The previous Europe-DXB/DXB-BKK/SIN-Australia routing added time and was less attractive to passengers.

Will QF directly respond to the EK threat - I dont think so. QF has always faced a huge amount of competition on the Europe-Australia Kangaroo route, mainly from Asian carriers such as SQ,MH,TG and CX, all of which offer convenient schedules from Europe to Australia with only one stop (change of aircraft) in their respective hubs. Instead of expanding in Europe, QF has dropped direct service to many European capitals and aside from its FRA flight, has focused on offering multiple daily departures on routes out of LHR. QF has stated that the only route between Europe and Australia where there is real money to be made are those out of LHR simply because that is where all of the premium business traffic is. European carriers seem to agree, as KL, AF and LH no longer fly their own aircraft to Australia.

It seems that most traffic between Europe and Australia is people on vacation or going in either direction to visit friends and family, with a rather small amount of premium traffic, thus the yeild on the route are rather poor. Also the distances are huge and its requires a large investment and ties up large widebody aircraft.

EK will certainly try to attract the premium passengers travelling between European cities other than London going to Australia - their schedules are designed to allow onestop connections to many cities in Australia (and New Zealand) so they have a good chance of success. I think that the EK strategy will be more problematic for SQ s they have owned this market for years. EK will also be more than happy to fill up its coach section with the lower yeilding pax going between the two continents since, as we all know, EK has a lot of very big airplanes on order and there will be many seats to fill.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Sun May 08, 2005 11:13 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
QF has always faced a huge amount of competition on the Europe-Australia Kangaroo route

Very true... but I am talking more than that!

I was talking to someone the other day, and they told me they were going on a ski trip to NZ from MEL flying with EK both ways... If/when EK get more/increased rights to and from Australia, this could mean much more expansive competition to QF on all routes.

Essentially, even the Kangaroo route is not protected. What may weigh into this discussion is SQ's interest in the trans-pacific route. If another virgin should start up and SQ gain rights to LA from SYD and/or MEL this could be a whole new ball game for QF. EK is only the start of this threat.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
NAV20
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Sun May 08, 2005 11:21 pm

Must admit that I despair of Qantas ever doing anything imaginative.

You know how it is, though, Montey - the government can get all 'free market-inclined' at times. But when push comes to shove, all QF has to do in the end is spend a day in Canberra saying, "If you do that it means x,000 redundancies.." - and the government folds.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
monteycarlos
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Sun May 08, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
You know how it is, though, Montey - the government can get all 'free market-inclined' at times. But when push comes to shove, all QF has to do in the end is spend a day in Canberra saying, "If you do that it means x,000 redundancies.." - and the government folds.

Interesting point, but on the other side of it is this:
Qantas jobs may take flight overseas

With comments flying about that the federal government has less of an inclination now to assist QF in all matters relating to competition, the future looks much more grim. Especially considering "AT a private lunch at The American Club in Sydney recently, Qantas boss Geoff Dixon said a cabinet minister had joked to him that it really wouldn't matter if Qantas ceased to exist."
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
aerokiwi
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Sun May 08, 2005 11:28 pm

Let's see, for a Kiwi to fly to Europe on EK he now has to make 3 stops. 3!!! apaprently the SYD-Dubai flight is now for Aussie pax only.

Transfers at Dubai are in the middle of the night and the whole adventure can take up to 30 hours. The planes used (777s) are configured for 3-4-3 seating in economy when other airlines use 9 abreast, whilst the premium seats are of inferior quality to the A340s on other routes.

On top of that, EK is rarely very price competitive.

I just don't see the attratction for many travellers, economy or premium.

And flying from MEL-Queenstown/Central North Island, wouldn't it be easier to fly QF or NZ who have direct conections, rather than EK and then having to buy a domestic sector? I doubt it would be cheaper to split between airlines.
Unless of course the people in question are fly-driving.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Sun May 08, 2005 11:38 pm

The main question is this: Emirates have very aggressive plans for the future, and their long-term plan is to become the first global carrier. They are quite obviously using their position in the middle-east as a springboard to the rest of the world, and thus far it is working very well as the article stated.

When EK start getting the first of their new aircraft online (especially the A380's) and start getting more expansive rights (including bilaterals) do QF need to come up with a strategy or will they dismiss EK as a non-threat?
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
NAV20
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Sun May 08, 2005 11:41 pm

The Minister in question was that well-known twit Alexander Downer, Montey. Need I say more?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
EmiratesUK
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 5):
Let's see, for a Kiwi to fly to Europe on EK he now has to make 3 stops. 3!!! apaprently the SYD-Dubai flight is now for Aussie pax only.

There is the option to pick up the 777er AKL-SYD and then transfer onto the A345 service SYD-DXB. making AKL or CHC a 2 stop service. EK have an expansive network in europe which should attract pasengers away from the likes of QF/BA. I personally would rather transit DXB at 2am than go through LHR, I now never use QF or BA, EK fly from my local airport making Oz a 1 stop flight. I have paid £xxx amount more to fly from BHX rather than the trek to LHR.
EK A380 Private suite - Here I come!!
 
JoKeR
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 4:38 am

Emirates has the advantage of a young fleet with a mix of Airbus A320-200s, A340-300s and A340-500s, as well as Boeing 777-300s, 777-300ERs and 777-200s recording an average age of 55 months.

In this case, the difference between a "2" and a "3" is more than "1"  Smile
Kafa, čaj, šraf?
 
jacobin777
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 9):
Emirates has the advantage of a young fleet with a mix of Airbus A320-200s

did you mean A330-200's? EK doesn't have any A320's.....anything smaller than a twin isle plane is too small for them... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
atmx2000
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 5:07 am

Perhaps QF will rue the day that they ordered the A380 and got airports to upgrade facilities for the A380.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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mariner
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 11):
Perhaps QF will rue the day that they ordered the A380 and got airports to upgrade facilities for the A380.

What a bizarre statement.  confused 

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Trvlr
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 5:37 am

I'm certainly in the minority here, but I strongly believe that Qantas will, in the future, start a nonstop SYD-LHR flight. Yes, I know that neither the 772LR nor the 787 or A350 officially have the range for such a flight, but I would think that Qantas is certainly going to closely watch the performance statistics of each plane once it starts revenue service.

My prediction: Qantas orders the A350 or 787, makes a modification or two, and puts it on SYD-LHR by 2011.

Aaron G.
 
aussiestu
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 6:41 am

Emirates UK - you would rather transit DXB at 2am than transit LHR from BHX. Well I think like a lot of things you have to view transiting as your own time perspective. I would rather be sound asleep at 2am on a BA/QF or even SQ flight to Oz than transiting through a Middle East airport that may have delays due to the large amount of flights departing at that time. While I certainly agree that flying BHX to DXB and Oz may have its benefits for those of us that live south then transiting at 2am is not pretty or nice.

Just my two pennies worth and I have flown EK so understand its pluses!!
 
ozglobal
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 7:02 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 11):
Perhaps QF will rue the day that they ordered the A380 and got airports to upgrade facilities for the A380.

Come again...?

Everything stated above, especially QF's MASSIVE consolidation of the Oz-Europe to Oz-LHR ( 744's 31 times weekly!!) points toward big benefits from A380's on this slot-restricted route.

Please explain ....??
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
antares
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 7:10 am

I changed from an A345 at Dubai to a 777-300 earlier this year at about 6 am in the morning. A very pleasant change to Heathrow which is a total disgrace, but alas, I was going to heathrow, so there was no escape.

If I had been going somewhere else in Europe I would have been very pleased not to be going through London, bearing in mind that gruesome shambles involved in just getting from Terminal 2 to Terminal 3, or for the ultimate rip off in terms of time and and double airport taxes, via Gatwick.

To go back to the original question, Qantas must change if it wishes to address the main European market.

So far, as pointed out, it has tended to withdraw or do code shares, but here is the rub.

Premium fares no longer produce the profits needed by Qantas. Yes, they produce more profits per passenger buying them, but too few are buying them.

Qantas, like all other carriers, has to move from high margin premium focus to low margin mass travel focus. the arithmetic already shows that the value of very cheap fares in mass, outweights by a around three to one, the revenue collected from premium fares for a much smaller number of passengers.

Qantas has been forced to do deals with major corporate accounts to give them discounts on premium fares that make the returns more like super economy anyhow.

So we are approaching an intelligence test for the Qantas board. They have to think very hard about putting Australian on the all-economy market to Manchester, Amsterdam, Rome and so forth, and they have to trash their outdated 'new' business class and go the Virgin Atlantic route with flat sleepers, not inclined slopers, and make sure their A380s, which are essential to cope with the slot/growth crisis at both the Sydney and London ends are flown as the 'best' A380s in the skies.

Now Qantas can achieve this. Provided it learns to think differently.

Antares
 
6thfreedom
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 10:13 am

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 13):
I'm certainly in the minority here, but I strongly believe that Qantas will, in the future, start a nonstop SYD-LHR flight. Yes, I know that neither the 772LR nor the 787 or A350 officially have the range for such a flight, but I would think that Qantas is certainly going to closely watch the performance statistics of each plane once it starts revenue service.

Many people seem to think that QF's solution is to operate non-stop SYD-LHR? But it it really? Apart from the UK market, going to Europe on this service would mean significant backtracking, and a transfer at LHR! forget it.

the advantage of a non-stop is not THAT great, and i would much rather stretch my legs for 1-2 hrs after 14 hrs or so, rather than being stuck in a metail tube for over 18 hrs.

distances based on QF non-stop, then on to Europe v EK via DXB

QF
SYD (33°56'46"S 151°10'38"E) LHR (51°28'39"N 00°27'41"W) 10573 mi

EK
SYD (33°56'46"S 151°10'38"E) DXB (25°15'18"N 55°21'51"E) 7481 mi
DXB (25°15'18"N 55°21'51"E) LHR (51°28'39"N 00°27'41"W) 3420 mi
10,901 miles!
---------------------------------
QF
SYD (33°56'46"S 151°10'38"E) LHR (51°28'39"N 00°27'41"W) 10573 mi
LHR (51°28'39"N 00°27'41"W) FRA (50°01'35"N 08°32'35"E) 407 mi
10,980 miles

EK
SYD (33°56'46"S 151°10'38"E) DXB (25°15'18"N 55°21'51"E) 7481 mi
DXB (25°15'18"N 55°21'51"E) FRA (50°01'35"N 08°32'35"E) 3013 mi
10,494 miles!
------------------------------------------------------

QF
SYD (33°56'46"S 151°10'38"E) LHR (51°28'39"N 00°27'41"W) 10573 mi
LHR (51°28'39"N 00°27'41"W) FCO (41°48'16"N 12°15'03"E) 899 mi
11,472 miles

EK
SYD (33°56'46"S 151°10'38"E) DXB (25°15'18"N 55°21'51"E) 7481 mi
DXB (25°15'18"N 55°21'51"E) FCO (41°48'16"N 12°15'03"E) 2702 mi
10,183 miles!

------------------------------------------------------
Add to that the EK serves 5 UK airports, 3/4 in Germany, 3 Italy, 2 France, + ATH/IST etc etc, and wou still have a clear winner in EK both in terms of overall travel time, convenience etc..
 
bill142
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 10:54 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 11):
Perhaps QF will rue the day that they ordered the A380 and got airports to upgrade facilities for the A380.

Yet another anti-A380 statement, typically coming from an american. Qantas can use the capacity the A380 offers to LAX and LHR.

As for Qantas taking on Emirates, they should. Alot of companies in Australia don't like competition. They are always happy with a monopoly or a duopoly where their fair share of business is pretty much gauranteed.

The Australian Governement gives it to easy to Qantas, is a simple case of whinge and win.
 
atmx2000
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting Ozglobal (Reply 15):
Come again...?

Everything stated above, especially QF's MASSIVE consolidation of the Oz-Europe to Oz-LHR ( 744's 31 times weekly!!) points toward big benefits from A380's on this slot-restricted route.

Please explain ....??

Except the benefits equation will be effected by the presence of EK, Thai, SQ, Malaysia, Etihad and others on the rough path between Australia and the UK. These airlines operating out of hubs closer to Europe and the UK will have a greater ability to gather 6th freedom passengers onto their flights headed for LHR and other European airports. The ones that send A388s to Australia could gather up a lot of Australian traffic while providing better connections to destinations throughout Europe.

[Edited 2005-05-09 04:57:21]
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
atmx2000
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:05 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 18):
Qantas can use the capacity the A380 offers to LAX and LHR.

Of course they can, particularly in a world where only they have A380's. But that isn't what the world is going to look like. QF will be fine with regards to operating the A380 to LAX. It looks like the ideal route, with only potential competition from airlines getting 5th freedom rights through Oz. LHR is a different story, with multiple airlines with hubs on the route between Australia and Europe. There will be a signficant increase in capacity to LHR on this path.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
monteycarlos
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 6:23 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 16):
To go back to the original question, Qantas must change if it wishes to address the main European market.

Now we're hitting the target. I believe EK poses a real threat to QF's Europe operation.

I am going to go out on a limb here... Talk in one of my classes is that some people within QF and SQ believe that the two carriers should merge in the fashion that KL and AF did. This, they believe, would give them the resources and capabilities to hit the US and EU markets more effectively etc.

Any thoughts?

I still see this as being 10-15 years if it happens.

Quoting Antares (Reply 16):
Qantas, like all other carriers, has to move from high margin premium focus to low margin mass travel focus. the arithmetic already shows that the value of very cheap fares in mass, outweights by a around three to one, the revenue collected from premium fares for a much smaller number of passengers.

I think their premium class is still very important economically. The margin is massive and really, the loads aren't bad at all for the Kangaroo or transpacific route. It was the other marginal ones that did not do so well.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 17):
Many people seem to think that QF's solution is to operate non-stop SYD-LHR? But it it really? Apart from the UK market, going to Europe on this service would mean significant backtracking, and a transfer at LHR! forget it.

I agree. LHR is a very long transfer if you are heading to Europe proper. FRA is good for QF, but IMO I would prefer the choice of destinations offered by EK then taking QF to LHR and trying to move from there with BA.

For example, if I wanted to go to Paris from MEL, I would have to take a QF/BA flight from MEL to SIN, AF to CDG or if I wanted to go at any other time of day I would have to go with BA via LHR. If I value my time, that is very inconvienient!

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 17):
Add to that the EK serves 5 UK airports, 3/4 in Germany, 3 Italy, 2 France, + ATH/IST etc etc, and wou still have a clear winner in EK both in terms of overall travel time, convenience etc..

Exactly. Good point.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 18):
Yet another anti-A380 statement, typically coming from an american. Qantas can use the capacity the A380 offers to LAX and LHR.

To argue that QF could not utilise the A380 effectively to LAX is silly. With at least 5 747's in LAX each day, and the only reason there is not more is because there aren't more available, the A380 will be well used on this route.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 20):
LHR is a different story, with multiple airlines with hubs on the route between Australia and Europe. There will be a signficant increase in capacity to LHR on this path.

I believe that when slots start becoming hard to come by, getting 500+ in on one flight will be a very handy option.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
monteycarlos
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 7:01 pm

Of interest:

"Australia, Singapore open skies talks to begin in two weeks
Friday May 6, 2005
Australia will resume highly sensitive bilateral talks with Singapore in two weeks with the aim of negotiating an open skies agreement by mid-year. Singapore Transport Minister Yeo Cheow Tong said the governments of both countries will attempt to resolve the issue of Singapore Airlines' securing access to the Australia-US route during the negotiations. Qantas has been lobbying strongly against the move to grant SIA fifth freedom rights, arguing that it does not enjoy reciprocal benefits on routes through Singapore. Yeo said the two governments hope to keep to their original target of finalizing a "road map" for an open skies pact, including fifth freedom rights, by June. The next round of talks will be held in Singapore. "We are ready to conclude open skies agreements with all countries that are willing to do so as such agreements are of mutual benefit to the partner countries, their economies and their people," he said.

by Ian Thomas
"

Source: http://www.atwonline.com

How will this affect EK in the short and long term? And what about QF?

[Edited 2005-05-09 12:02:16]
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
aerokiwi
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 8:10 pm

From my understanding after speaking to several travel agents, they've been told to put NZ pax on the 3 stop services to Europe to reserve the SYD-DXB flight pretty much solely for Oz pax. Otherwise, you have to pay a premium fare, which isn't particularly great when you consider the only benefit you get on EK would be 2 stops instead of 3. Wow. I could fly cheaper on SQ and tolerate just one stop.

Essentially, I think you'll see the NZ contribution to EK diminish because of things like this. So QF and NZ should be reasonably safe from EK on routes to NZ.

For an airline that brags so much about its service standards though, you gotta wonder who on earth makes their decisions re. seating, schedules and routings. I guess the accountants.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 8:15 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 23):
Essentially, I think you'll see the NZ contribution to EK diminish because of things like this. So QF and NZ should be reasonably safe from EK on routes to NZ.

Maybe, but my guess is that EK are banking on foreign passengers travelling TO New Zealand and as such, might not be too worried about impressing the NZ travellers? It does seem odd the way they are operating... maybe its a case of simply not having a capable aircraft. Could the A350/B787 change this?

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 23):
For an airline that brags so much about its service standards though, you gotta wonder who on earth makes their decisions re. seating, schedules and routings. I guess the accountants.

Lol... I'd be guessing at some pretty regimented planning division!
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
6thfreedom
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Mon May 09, 2005 8:53 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 21):
I am going to go out on a limb here... Talk in one of my classes is that some people within QF and SQ believe that the two carriers should merge in the fashion that KL and AF did. This, they believe, would give them the resources and capabilities to hit the US and EU markets more effectively etc.

Any thoughts?

This may happen a lot sooner than you think, and u can be sure that there will be some deals done on the side it all this trans-pacific stuff.
ie. Aust grants SQ pacific rights and the underrtaking that should SQ take a 17% shareholding, the Aust may increase the foreign investment cap to perhaps 49%. The wheels are in motion. I think 5 years max.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 24):
Maybe, but my guess is that EK are banking on foreign passengers travelling TO New Zealand and as such, might not be too worried about impressing the NZ travellers?

spot on! if I was a European pax, travelling on holidays, I wouldn't mind stopping in DXB and BKK/SIN on my way to Australia and New Zealand with EK. With that in mind, EK can offer 2 or 3 stops (compared to QF's 2 - one in Aust and one in Asia). Furthermore, if you are from European and travelling from anywhere other than LHR or FRA, the service is a 3 stop anyway. Home town-LHR/FRA-SIN/BKK/HKG-Australia-NZ.

Montey - welcome to my RU list.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 4:43 am

Isn't QF looking at being able to offer more frequencies to Europe? One of the reasons cited for the dropping of the CDG service was the fact that QF was limited to three flights per week. If it could go daily then it indicated it might have stuck with the route.

I agree QF needs to think about the direction it wants to take in future. Some longhaul aircraft, either A346 or 777, could be utilised to offer frequency on thinner routes where QF could hope to compete.

On a side note, is QF able to offer AKL-SIN flights like it can AKL-LAX? Just wondered as I'd have thought this could be a route QF could operate with say an A333, connecting into its own flights to LHR and FRA, plus BA's to LHR, and AY's to HEL.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
antares
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RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 6:55 am

Aerokiwi,

Emirates makes all its money flying LD3 containers across the Tasman for shippers peed off with QF and NZ for abandoning them while they foolishly try to rip each other to shreds using millions of single aisle jets.

It also makes more money from the premium market out of Sydney than it does on fares it can get out of Auckland, just like Virgin Atlantic makes more selling Hong Kong to London than it does charging almost the same Upper Suite fare to fly Sydney-Hong Kong-London after current discounts are taken into account.

Given that freight pays all the bills on the Tasman, all EK has to do with its jets is undercut the two big dummies on the route and all of those fares go to the bottom line.

This aggressive and intelligent focus on making real money is why EK just posted record financial results, part of whiuch were hand delivered on a plate by QF and NZ.

You'll find that unless intelligence comes to the fore at QF and NZ the nice people at Emirates will continue to attract punters who want a cheap trans Tasman flight in any class, including a very classy First class, and find themselves mesmerised by the wordl's very best IFE.

Antares
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 10:59 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 26):
On a side note, is QF able to offer AKL-SIN flights like it can AKL-LAX? Just wondered as I'd have thought this could be a route QF could operate with say an A333, connecting into its own flights to LHR and FRA, plus BA's to LHR, and AY's to HEL.

Thats an interesting thought... I don't know if they do it at the current point in time or whether they have the rights... but if they did it would make for a more attacking strategy.

Quoting Antares (Reply 27):
Emirates makes all its money flying LD3 containers across the Tasman for shippers peed off with QF and NZ for abandoning them while they foolishly try to rip each other to shreds using millions of single aisle jets

I heard this somewhere before... they actually run so much cargo for freight forwarding companies in SYD, MEL and AKL that they could afford to fly the planes without pax and still make money. Maybe they should dedicate a freighter service as well?  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Antares (Reply 27):
Given that freight pays all the bills on the Tasman, all EK has to do with its jets is undercut the two big dummies on the route and all of those fares go to the bottom line.

Hmmm, and I am hoping they do it. Does anyone know the comparitive fares?

Quoting Antares (Reply 27):
You'll find that unless intelligence comes to the fore at QF and NZ the nice people at Emirates will continue to attract punters who want a cheap trans Tasman flight in any class, including a very classy First class, and find themselves mesmerised by the wordl's very best IFE.

The service on EK is very good, and many people have commented on this. Some don't find it so good but they are few and far between. A Human Resources lady I spoke to the other day does a lot of work with companies both in New Zealand, Australia as well as Southern Asia and she said that whenever she flies QF, she is less than impressed by the level of their business class service, however she has never flown EK or NZ so I obviously can't draw the comparison.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2622
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 11:10 am

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 28):
Thats an interesting thought... I don't know if they do it at the current point in time or whether they have the rights... but if they did it would make for a more attacking strategy.

Australia certainly does have the rights.
In the same way that it operates lax-akl it could also operate sin-akl. The singapore govt does not have any restrictions in it's open skies agreement with Australia, while Australia has granted SQ open skies minus Pacific rights.

I think the reason that QF does not operate the sector is due to the lack of demand. Most inbound traffic Europe to NZ will stop in Australia, so the benefit of non-stop AKL-SIN is not as great.
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 29):
I think the reason that QF does not operate the sector is due to the lack of demand. Most inbound traffic Europe to NZ will stop in Australia, so the benefit of non-stop AKL-SIN is not as great.

I think that they could run pretty good competition with SQ on the route, being a non-star alliance airline they could, as FlyCaledonian said, link to many different European destinations ex.SIN and they could pretty much tailor the route by either running A332's or A333's or even something as big as maybe a B743?

As you say however, there probably does not exist the demand for it. New Zealand does not have a large travelling population but I would think that the business market from SIN or even Europe might sustain the route. What other airlines operate the route aside from SQ? Does NZ or is it a code-share agreement?
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2622
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 12:06 pm

9:20p SIN 1 12:45p+1 AKL I EK 432 1-Stop 773 11:25

6:25p SIN 1 11:50a+1 AKL I GA 841/GA 712 Via DPS 734/330 13:25

5:25p SIN 2 10:45a+1 AKL I MH 608/MH 131 Via KUL 330/772 13:20

8:20p SIN 2 10:10a+1 AKL I NZ 082 Non-stop 763 9:50
8:20p SIN 2 10:10a+1 AKL I *SQ 6881 Non-stop 763 9:50

8:55a SIN 2 10:30p AKL I SQ 281 Non-stop 772 9:35

9:00p SIN 2 10:25a+1 AKL I SQ 285 Non-stop 744 9:25
9:00p SIN 2 10:25a+1 AKL I *NZ 4385 Non-stop 744 9:25


3 PER DAY on Star alliance. 1 x NZ and 2 x SQ.
 
antares
Posts: 1367
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 1:03 pm

One of my contacts recently looked for Y fares to Auckland from Sydney, and was offered around $1200 on NZ, $900 on QF and $481 on EK including taxes in all cases, except the departure tax at Auckland you have to pay in person before boarding.

There were some cheaper deals but not quite as cheap as EK for the big two dummies but not on the days she wanted to fly, so despite all the frequency they could offer, she went with EK.

Incidentally her previous trip on the same route on QF was a shocker both ways with dirty seats and broken IFE on the 'real' Qantas jet and abysmal standards on the Jet Connect, shouldn't it be QF Disconnect, that was substituted at the last minute. Apparently led to people shouting at the QF check in desk in Auckland by some business passengers which she said was very disconcerting.
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 1:10 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 32):
There were some cheaper deals but not quite as cheap as EK for the big two dummies but not on the days she wanted to fly, so despite all the frequency they could offer, she went with EK.

LOL... two dummies... hahaha!

Very interesting though. For all the service standards that QF boast, its almost as though they are too proud to treat their customers the way they pay to be treated. This is part of where they need to change to address the threat posed by EK, IMO!

Quoting Antares (Reply 32):
Incidentally her previous trip on the same route on QF was a shocker both ways with dirty seats and broken IFE on the 'real' Qantas jet and abysmal standards on the Jet Connect, shouldn't it be QF Disconnect, that was substituted at the last minute.

It seems that there is a point where some kind of engrained corporate culture just takes over and says "we just don't need to offer the service levels that people demand." I agree that it is very disconcerting for QF!
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2622
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 1:19 pm

And the funny thing is that EK will continue to laugh all the way to the bank when JQ commence NZ services by September. The freight capacity will be cut even further with the A320, and the inflight service will be out the window.

EK will do to JQ what it has done to DJ between MEL-CHC.
DJ has gone from daily to 3pw services on the sector. I think they would look to drop the sector all together, but there are 2 issues.
1. pride
2. they don't have any other sector to throw the aircraft on which would give them a better result.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2256
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 4:04 pm

Granted the argument that Emirates is making its money off freight. But doesn't the fact that NZ (which uses 763s to SYD and 744s to BNE and MEL ontop of A320s) and QF have such high fares suggest to you that their planes are full and the only seats left are the very expensive ones?

And long haul, EK most certainly is not the cheapest. and their servcie standards are as variable as any carrier I've been on. Having to walk to the back of the plane to demand the passengers be given their drinks (water and juice) after pushing the buzzer for 20 minutes with no resposne, and only to find the entire economy crew lounging about chatting about buying shoes is hardly what I'd call top-notch service. Or even remotely professional.

There's a drive by travel agents here to get European and American visitors to stay for at least 3 weeks, which appears in conflict with past pushes to market Oz and NZ as one destination. Hence you can provide all the stops you want but if a pax is wanting to travel just to NZ, then they become an annpyance if anything.

Either way, EK is a threat to a lot of carriers worldwide and I'm starting to wonder about the home-town support arguments that the likes of AF, NZ andf the like are beginning to raise. Which leads me to think that the amazing growth of EK could potentially have the impact of curtailing the liberalisation of global air transport. Ironic really and a sad prospect.
 
antares
Posts: 1367
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 5:20 pm

Aerokiwi,

Listen to your leaders, or would be leaders. Both Norris and Dixon have said they are BLEEDING on the Tasman routes, so much so that if they are only going to have enough passengers to fill 40 % of the total daily inventory they may as well charge as much as they can get away with than throw more cash away.

The reason I call them the two dummies is that they know their behaviour is insane in terms of over capacity yet they keep doing it.

The difference between Qantas being a $3 share (it has been a bad month so far for QF shareholders) and a $4.50 share is the amount of money Dixon tells us as analysts is being p**sed into the Tasman because he is trying to make Norris roll over and die, even though 82% of NZ is owned by the NZ government after it allowed the Australian government to tell it what it should do with the Singaporeans (who had no idea how truly dead Ansett was at the time.)

The idea of playing chicken is to swerve at the last minute. As far as Dixon and Norris are concerned, no one blinked and they are lying in the middle of the road in a heap of feathers while EK patiently waits for the right moment to make an attractive proposition to the NZ government.

Antares (grumble, grumble, grumble)
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 8:44 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 36):
The idea of playing chicken is to swerve at the last minute. As far as Dixon and Norris are concerned, no one blinked and they are lying in the middle of the road in a heap of feathers while EK patiently waits for the right moment to make an attractive proposition to the NZ government.

WOW! Antares has hit a new level! Thats a witty description! I agree that EK at the moment are simply lying in wait. We'll see how the trans-tasman battle goes!
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
StickShaker
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:34 pm

RE: QF And EK To Do Battle?

Tue May 10, 2005 10:32 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
Must admit that I despair of Qantas ever doing anything imaginative.

You know how it is, though, Montey - the government can get all 'free market-inclined' at times. But when push comes to shove, all QF has to do in the end is spend a day in Canberra saying, "If you do that it means x,000 redundancies.." - and the government folds.

I'm inclined to agree NAV. Qantas seem to want the best of both worlds - no restrictions on foreign ownership for the purpose of capital raising, no restrictions on where they source or base staff - all free market type concepts but then expect to be sheltered from true competition on the trans Pacific route. How can an airline be preaching free market ideology on one hand and be demanding protection from competition on the other.

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 13):
My prediction: Qantas orders the A350 or 787, makes a modification or two, and puts it on SYD-LHR by 2011.

How about Airbus/Boeing make a modification or two to the A350/787 converting them to ULH aircraft, Qantas orders one or the other and places the aircraft on SYD-LHR maybe sometime around 2012.

Just my 2c


Cheers,
StickShaker