CX747
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Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:20 am

As I watched the reports come in on the 787 and A350 programs I began to think about the LOT and EK orders that will soon be placed. In your opinion, which order is more important or carries greater technical merit?

I believe that Boeing winning the LOT order is a greater win. The fact that the Boeing product has been reported as winning an order in an EU stronghold is interesting. It might just show that the technical and economic merit of the 787 family makes the competition not even close. Much like AF ordering 777s, I believe that the better aircraft is ahead in this competition.

As for the EK order, I believe it is important but not as far reaching. EK has been a loyal Airbus customer and an extremely large operator of many varieties, in my opinion, this order actually hamstrings Airbus as they are now forced to go with what they are offering. So far, only EK seems to be buying.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Danny
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:22 am

6 frames or 50 frames? I would take 50.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
I believe that Boeing winning the LOT order is a greater win. The fact that the Boeing product has been reported as winning an order in an EU stronghold is interesting.

LOT has never bought an Airbus in the past, them buying Boeing now is hardly a surprise. And it has been reported that there has been political pressure from BOTH sides for this order.
 
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:33 am

CX747, I don't think any single order is 'important' - what matters is the total of orders and commitments.

However, I entirely agree that the 787's general progress, in Europe and elsewhere, suggests that it is rapidly becoming the aeroplane that airlines simply cannot do without.

And that the fact that a single airline looks like accounting for 30% of Airbus' order book for the A380, and 85% of that for the A350, makes Airbus' whole 'business case' look frighteningly exposed.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
galapagapop
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:42 am

I would say LOT order as it would be the first real European order for Boeing. 50 frames is a lot but Emirates has yet to be a tough customer of one manufactuer, they just sway with the price tag sadly..
 
B742
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:45 am

I would say the EK A350 order would be, it would be the first A350 major order!

Rob!
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 4):
I would say LOT order as it would be the first real European order for Boeing

Do these not count?

First Choice Airways 6 (UK)
Blue Panorama 4 (Italy)
Icelandair 2 (Iceland)

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
Leskova
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:55 am

It never ceases to amaze me how a 50 plane order by, except of the A32Xs that they're replacing with B737NGs, loyal-Boeing-customer ANA for the B787 is described as a "major breakthrough", while a (rumored) 50 plane order by Emirates, an airline that orders from both manufacturers, is basically called "no surprise"...

I'm quite certain that the same people now basically saying that an order for A350s by EK is "less important" would be dancing in the streets if the same rumor were about EK ordering B787s...

Nonetheless - as Scorpio already mentioned, LOT has never operated Airbusses; they've been operating Boeings for quite a while now, and if they're happy with them, why should they switch to Airbus?

But I agree with NAV20's assessment that Airbus seems, at least currently, quite dependant on EK's success - while I certainly hope that it works out for EK and Airbus, I do hope that Airbus will be able to broaden it's customer base for both families.

Regards,
Frank
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piedmontnut
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 1:11 am

This thread could go south quickly...  ill 

To me both are equally important. I am sure both Airbus and Boeing would consider them as such, no...
May the A380 arrive @ MCO in the near future.
 
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sebolino
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 4):
50 frames is a lot but Emirates has yet to be a tough customer of one manufactuer, they just sway with the price tag sadly..

Wait wait ...

For weeks, We're told by some people that the 787 is way cheaper than the A350.
 
Glom
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 1:52 am

EK went with the A350 because it's bigger.
 
LHMark
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 2:09 am

I think the two orders are mutually exclusive, and there's really no way to compare them win-for-win. There is certainly enough demand for airframes in the world transport market to carry two large manufacturers, and each individual company will buy what suits them.

EK is probably in a position to offer a great deal of input into the development of the A350. Who can blame them for jumping at the chance to buy a fleet they can deeply customize to their needs?
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
CX747
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 2:33 am

I think that NAV stated my idea to a better extent. Both orders are important for different reasons, I just think that the LOT order carries more weight due to the pressures etc that took place/taking place there.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 13):
I think that NAV stated my idea to a better extent. Both orders are important for different reasons, I just think that the LOT order carries more weight due to the pressures etc that took place/taking place there.

So ask Boeing which, if they could only have one, would they chose? 6 planes for LOT, or 50 for Emirates? I think I know what their answer would be! The weight of the $s significantly outweighs any perceived 'political' win.  sarcastic 
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Udo
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
I believe that Boeing winning the LOT order is a greater win. The fact that the Boeing product has been reported as winning an order in an EU stronghold is interesting.

Sure, winning six orders is better than 50...  sarcastic 
Btw, the "EU stronghold" airline has never ever operated a single Airbus aircraft, plus the "EU stronghold" is one of GWB's best buddies. Poland did not go to Iraq just for fun - so they might get both sweet deals on military and civil products from their big friends in return.

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
It might just show that the technical and economic merit of the 787 family makes the competition not even close.

LOT's order shows about as much as Blue Panorama's or Icelandair's.  Wink
Say NWA or Korean and I might agree.

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
As for the EK order, I believe it is important but not as far reaching. EK has been a loyal Airbus customer and an extremely large operator of many varieties,

EK also has been a loyal Boeing 777 customer, they are one of the world's largest operators with 21 aircraft in service and another 30 on order.

In contrary, EK's order is indeed far reaching, because the world's airlines look up at Emirates and not down at LOT. Sorry, that's how they compare in international importance.

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
in my opinion, this order actually hamstrings Airbus as they are now forced to go with what they are offering. So far, only EK seems to be buying.

The A350's design is not frozen yet. We still haven't seen many details. And there's probably much room left for improvement, we don't know. With EK as a major customer, all gets easier for Airbus.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
However, I entirely agree that the 787's general progress, in Europe and elsewhere, suggests that it is rapidly becoming the aeroplane that airlines simply cannot do without.

So then all airlines will order the B787?  Wink

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
And that the fact that a single airline looks like accounting for 30% of Airbus' order book for the A380, and 85% of that for the A350, makes Airbus' whole 'business case' look frighteningly exposed.

I would say having such commitments from one of the financial most stabile and fastest growing airlines in the world is something they can be happy about.

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 4):
I would say LOT order as it would be the first real European order for Boeing.

And Italy and the UK don't count?  confused 

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 4):
50 frames is a lot but Emirates has yet to be a tough customer of one manufactuer, they just sway with the price tag sadly..

EK could afford any airplane they want - so be sure they don't go for the cheapest available option but the one which helps to secure their future growth.

Quoting Spike (Reply 9):
Its about the same as Eithiopian being the launch customer. Who gives a damn? Are they going to globally promote this like EK can?

Exactly. In comparison to Emirates, LOT is not really relevant.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 12):
I think that NAV stated my idea to a better extent. Both orders are important for different reasons, I just think that the LOT order carries more weight due to the pressures etc that took place/taking place there.

I would suggest EK's order carries MUCH more weight:

1. No political pressure on Emirates - they simply go for the plane which they want
2. Political pressure on Poland
3. EK's order is for 50 aircraft, not just five or six.
4. EK's worldwide reputation gives the A350 order major significance



Regards
Udo
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starrion
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 4:00 am

The EK order is pivotal. If Boeing won that the outlook for the A350 would be Grim. The LOT order is nice. But this for all intents and purposes is the A350 "launch" order.

It does give Airbus a frighteningly high degree of exposure to EK's fortunes. With so much of both the A380 and the A350 dependent on one airline, unrest other problems could seriously impact EADS.

It might have been better for airbus to consider this design more towards competing better against the 787, but with this order the "larger" design is now the rule. It should do well against the 772 though.
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CX747
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 4:28 am

Do we happen to have actual articles from world renowned publications stating that either of these airlines has in fact publicly stated their intentions?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
keesje
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 4:39 am

A big launch customer is IMO or important then a LOT order for 6.

Numbers don´t sy everything. IMO the NWA order for 18 aicraft is more valuable for Boeing then the Korean, Canadian and all leisure carriers combined.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
LHMark
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 4:50 am

Udo, that's weird, the quote box says you're quoting me, but that's someone else's post. -LHMark
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
Udo
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 19):
Udo, that's weird, the quote box says you're quoting me, but that's someone else's post. -LHMark

Mark, I'm sorry for the misquoting. The quote should show CX747, but somehow it got changed!


Regards
Udo
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Leskova
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 19):
Mark, I'm sorry for the misquoting. The quote should show CX747, but somehow it got changed!

As you can see, that can happen quite easily: the quote above is from Udo's post, but it says LHMARK: if you quote something, be sure to press the "QUOTE SELECTED TEXT" button of the post that you're quoting - what I did here was I selected the text in Udo's post but used the button in LHMARK's post...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
mham001
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 7:26 am

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 10):
For weeks, We're told by some people that the 787 is way cheaper than the A350.

I keep reading the 350 is listed at $190 million and the 787 at $120 million. Is this incorrect?
 
FCKC
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 7:38 am

Mham001

Surely you are right.
Do not forget the A350 is larger , and is NOT really the same size airplane , since it has been launched to compete with the 787 , and also to replace the 777-200ER.
So obviously it's normal the 787 is cheaper than the A350.
 
Cahiwa
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
in my opinion, this order actually hamstrings Airbus as they are now forced to go with what they are offering.

I am assuming Airbus has many bright people who have looked at the A350/787 market and decided the business case for the A350 is only solid once commitments reach X. All the while realizing committing to it also saps resources from future product development. I hope Airbus says forget the A350 and does a true competitor to the 787. I guarantee folks at Boeing are hoping otherwise. Just me being a Sunday afternoon economist.
 twocents  Ciao for now.. K
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 8:01 am

A 50 frame order is better than a 6 frame order. Long-term potential and past preferences notwithstanding, either A or B would prefer the order with more planes coz that means more money now.
 
mham001
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 23):
Surely you are right.
Do not forget the A350 is larger , and is NOT really the same size airplane , since it has been launched to compete with the 787 , and also to replace the 777-200ER.
So obviously it's normal the 787 is cheaper than the A350.

What I'm not understanding is the apparent $70 million dollar price difference for 20-30 seats??
Do you know the list price for 772-ER?
 
CX747
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 9:03 am

Emirates is now denying this order and stating that all options are still on the table and being considered.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 11:06 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
But I agree with NAV20's assessment that Airbus seems, at least currently, quite dependant on EK's success - while I certainly hope that it works out for EK and Airbus, I do hope that Airbus will be able to broaden it's customer base for both families.

No kidding. I would be nervous by the fact that about one-third of my 380 orders are from one airline, which is also the only airline that appears to be interested in a significant order for my other new plane.
Keepin' it real.
 
milan320
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 11:47 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 15):
Btw, the "EU stronghold" airline has never ever operated a single Airbus aircraft, plus the "EU stronghold" is one of GWB's best buddies. Poland did not go to Iraq just for fun - so they might get both sweet deals on military and civil products from their big friends in return.

Udo, don't be so sure we will get much in return. As I've mentioned numerous times in past threads, the promised off-sets from the F-16 sale have not not come through as much as promised. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens with any promises Boeing will make (one of them includes, if I remember correctly, the privilage  sarcastic  of helping build part of Dubya's beloved anti-missle defence system - in which Boeing will also be taking part in). Myself and most of my Polish friends agree - Poland is about to get duped again with empty promises of offsets, etc. A lot on the Polish discussion forums will tell you the same where the support for either Airbus or Boeing is about 60-40 in favour or Airbus

Airbus, at least has been investing in Poland for quite a while - with their investements rising every year - this without LOT even flying on Airbus plane.
Poles fight when in a corner, but it seems we need to be kicked twice or three times before we learn our lesson.

BTW, we never did get much in return for fighting in Iraq. One of the first contracts that a Polish firm received in Iraq was actually owned by an American firm. Nice!  sarcastic 

Cheers!
/Milan320
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cloudy
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 1:36 pm

To answer the original question - it all depends on whether Emirates is going to be successfull with their huge growth plans. It is possible they may succeed, or they may implode like People's Express. Only time wil tell. Emirates is making a huge role of the dice. The Polish order caries less risk, but also less potential reward.

One of Boeing's big bets with the 7E7 is designing the bird to attract leasing companies. Interchangeable engines, more commonality, etc. are all designed to help place used and off-lease planes. They also increase resale value. One airline's 7E7 will fit right in to another airline's fleet with far fewer modifications than current aircraft require. Only time will tell if this bet will pay off.

Leasing companies are also a little bit less likely to order something for prestige or political reasons than airlines are. For this reason, it would probably be a good idea to look closely at how each deal is financed - and how many leasing company orders are placed. That would probably give a better picture of how Airbus and Boeing's new product strategies are playing out in the marketplace. The question of what planes fly in which airline's colors is interesting, and even important to a degree. But the financial maneuvers behind each purchase, especially financial deals involving leasing companies, would probably tell a great deal more than mere order count by airline would. McDonald Douglas looked a lot more healthy than it really was for a long time, if one looked only at its order book. It was the terms which got these deals that told the real story.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 1:40 pm

Quoting Starrion (Reply 16):
The EK order is pivotal. If Boeing won that the outlook for the A350 would be Grim. The LOT order is nice. But this for all intents and purposes is the A350 "launch" order.

It's in Airbus's best interest if Boeing wins both orders. At least Airbus could regroup and come up with a good product for us all.

Why would Poland want to buy from Germany? Germany ran them over in WWII. They suffered through Soviet occupation because of Germany. There's tons of people in the former East-Europe that hate Germans. So, preference should be American. If the A350 would be soooo much better than the 787, there would be a reason to buy Airbus, but that's obviously not the case.

Besides who cares about LOT? How about British Airways or Air France? JAL? Qantas?
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 2:01 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 31):
Besides who cares about LOT??

I do.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 31):
How about British Airways or Air France? JAL? Qantas?

JAL? Puhleeeze... BA or Air France - that's more like it. Either one could go either way... Qantas? They're happy with A330 on their long-haul routes last time I checked... the only 787 I could see them ordering would be -3 for their domestic runs...
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 3:14 pm

how about Qantas Australia to UK?
 
zvezda
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 3:31 pm

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
I believe that Boeing winning the LOT order is a greater win. The fact that the Boeing product has been reported as winning an order in an EU stronghold is interesting.

Poland an EU stronghold?!?!?  rotfl  Have you ever been to Poland? Have you paid attention to the abusive way the French and German governments publically speak about the Polish government? The Poles are as likely to buy a German airplane as the Palestinian Authority is to buy an Israeli airplane.
 
Udo
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 3:58 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 31):
Why would Poland want to buy from Germany?

Because Poland is one of Germany's most important trading partners?

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 31):
Germany ran them over in WWII. They suffered through Soviet occupation because of Germany. There's tons of people in the former East-Europe that hate Germans.

Wow, what an argument. Most people don't mix up today's Germany and Germany 60 years ago. If your theory were right, the half world wouldn't buy anything from Germany.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 31):
Besides who cares about LOT? How about British Airways or Air France? JAL? Qantas?

What's your point?

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 34):
Have you paid attention to the abusive way the French and German governments publically speak about the Polish government?

Could you please specify? Because it's a hot load of c*** to claim a German government official would speak in an "abusive way" about Poland.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 34):
The Poles are as likely to buy a German airplane as the Palestinian Authority is to buy an Israeli airplane.

Sure, that's why Poland is one of Germany's most important trading partner...better get your info straight, man.
And btw, Airbus is not German...you should really know better.



Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
QantasA380
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 4:10 pm

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 6):
Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 4):
I would say LOT order as it would be the first real European order for Boeing

Do these not count?

First Choice Airways 6 (UK)
Blue Panorama 4 (Italy)
Icelandair 2 (Iceland)

Yeah, they count!!!! And what about AF's B777s, BA's B777s, all the B747s and B767, and all those B737s (they're everywhere in Europe!!)...????
Virgin Blue - what colour's RED????
 
Andreas
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 4:25 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 34):
Have you ever been to Poland? Have you paid attention to the abusive way the French and German governments publically speak about the Polish government?

And neither have you, it seems, reading this post of yours! And I wonder: Have you ever been to Germany or France????? No definitely not, so stop posting nonsense!

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 34):
The Poles are as likely to buy a German airplane as the Palestinian Authority is to buy an Israeli airplane.

Nice try, and great proof how senseless nationalism can leave people blind to what is economically sensible! Quite encouraging coming from a CEO  Wink Big grin
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
zvezda
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 5:04 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 35):
Could you please specify? Because it's a hot load of c*** to claim a German government official would speak in an "abusive way" about Poland.

The best example would be over Poland's support for the American war against Iraq. Schroeder was somewhat diplomatic in his condescesion. Chirac was outrageously condescending. In German, unvershaemt.  Smile

Quoting Udo (Reply 35):
And btw, Airbus is not German...you should really know better.

I didn't write that Airbus is German.

Quoting Andreas (Reply 37):
Have you ever been to Germany or France?????

I lived in France for more than a year. I've never lived in Germany but I've been there dozens of times, including flying out of the Airbus (then DASA) facility at Finkenwerder three times.

Quoting Andreas (Reply 37):
Nice try, and great proof how senseless nationalism can leave people blind to what is economically sensible!

No place on the planet has ever been as nationalistic as Europe in the 20th century. We are getting over it, but slowly. The Lithuanians may be the only people I've found more nationalistic than the Poles. The new freedom to travel is helping. Also, one begins to find youngsters who, for example, have an English father, German mother, were born in Italy and went to school in France. They don't consider themselves English, German, Italian, or French, but European. It's progress, but it will take a few generations more.
 
Udo
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 5:07 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 38):
The best example would be over Poland's support for the American war against Iraq. Schroeder was somewhat diplomatic in his condescesion.

Which contradicts what you said earlier.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 38):
I didn't write that Airbus is German.

You were talking about "German airplane".


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
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sebolino
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 5:07 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 31):
Why would Poland want to buy from Germany? Germany ran them over in WWII. They suffered through Soviet occupation because of Germany.

I fail to see the relation with buying an Airbus.
 
zvezda
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 5:22 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 39):

Which contradicts what you said earlier.

No it doesn`t.

Quoting Udo (Reply 39):
You were talking about "German airplane".

Do you know the word "hypothetical"? I'm well aware that Junkers and Messerschmidt don't make airplanes anymore, but many Poles I know think of Airbus as a more or less German company. (I don't speak Polish, but I hear it nearly every day and it's near enough to Russian that I can understand Polish fairly well.)
 
cornish
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 5:26 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 40):
Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 31):
Why would Poland want to buy from Germany? Germany ran them over in WWII. They suffered through Soviet occupation because of Germany.

I fail to see the relation with buying an Airbus.

Agreed, otherwise why would the Czechs, Belgians, Danes, Norwegians, Greeks, etc buy Airbuses either ?

We've all moved on in Europe these days......
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 6:07 pm

Quoting CX747 (Reply 27):
Emirates is now denying this order and stating that all options are still on the table and being considered.

They are denying that they have placed an order... No source I saw actually said that EK had committed themselves to the A350 with a firm order, but merely had stated that they intended to buy new planes. As I said in one of the other forums, we have to wait until the Paris Airshow, if nothing comes of it then, then perhaps EK have still not decided!
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 6:37 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 41):
No it doesn`t.

Ok, let me see...who talked about the "abusive way the French and German governments publically speak about the Polish government"? And later the same person said "Schroeder was somewhat diplomatic"...hmmm, now draw your conclusions.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 41):
I'm well aware that Junkers and Messerschmidt don't make airplanes anymore, but many Poles I know think of Airbus as a more or less German company.

It's only important that the decision makers in Poland know that Airbus is a European company, not a "more or less German one". What the other people think is totally irrelevant.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
cornish
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 6:47 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 44):
Ok, let me see...who talked about the "abusive way the French and German governments publically speak about the Polish government"? And later the same person said "Schroeder was somewhat diplomatic"...hmmm, now draw your conclusions.



Quoting Udo (Reply 44):
It's only important that the decision makers in Poland know that Airbus is a European company, not a "more or less German one".

Udo is right - Additionly you could say "And Britain doesn't manufacture a very significant part of Airbus aircraft then" ???
I seem to recall that Poland and Britain's relations tend to be pretty good - both these days and back in WW2 (that you mentioned - but is really irrelevent in this order).

"Many Poles" however, are not the Polish government......

However having said this - I still think LO will order 787s....

[Edited 2005-05-09 11:49:17]
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
greaser
Posts: 1040
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 6:55 pm

Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 25):
A 50 frame order is better than a 6 frame order. Long-term potential and past preferences notwithstanding, either A or B would prefer the order with more planes coz that means more money now

But if one had a choice between a large base of potential (by securing as many customers as possible) or a large single order, i think it's smart to snatch and grab as many customers and make them commit to the program first. No offence to Emirates, but they're an airplane whore and try to get their hands on everything. I think it's not surprising they bought the A350 (Which this article claims). Emirates doesn't choose bad aircraft, but when you want a manufacturer to build a larger aircraft they're not so cosy with, and they're really only 2 manufacturers in the world, your options really are limited, as much as we like to think Emirates controls the industry. Time to move over to the really cattle carts...bring in the AN225!!
Now you're really flying
 
DutchFlyer
Posts: 159
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 7:29 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 15):
1. No political pressure on Emirates - they simply go for the plane which they want
2. Political pressure on Poland

All orders are political.

It involves national pride on both the buyer and seller side. A and B produce equal high quality planes but one (A or B) serves the purpose slightly better the airliner has in mind.

Looking at aircrafts used worldwide gives a good impression of the political spectrum. France (Europe) is doing well in the Arabic countries and the US isn't. Where are the Airbusses sold, Israel?!?

Japan and India favor the US so a big surprise Boeings are "hot" over there.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 7:38 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 45):
I seem to recall that Poland and Britain's relations tend to be pretty good - both these days and back in WW2

Well, they weren't too hot on the alliance with Russia, but the US was part of that as well.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5443
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RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 7:41 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 31):
Why would Poland want to buy from Germany? Germany ran them over in WWII.

I don't know about you, but my calendar says May 2005 not 1945.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 31):
They suffered through Soviet occupation because of Germany.

Wasn't it also beacuse someone played this "let's split Europe" game with maps in Yalta and that someone was naive enough to believe Stalin anything beyond "good morning"

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 41):
but many Poles...

...have trouble telling Airbus from Boeing when it is parked at the gate. Just as any other people (regardless of nationality) with no interest in aviation except for being taken, preferrably for not too much money, from place A to place B couple times a year.
Just as absolute majority of people does't care about the engine pulling their train or what company manufactures the bus they take to work in the mornings.
This is just the bias of us aviation freaks, who think that if you can't tell 737 Classic from 737NG you are almost illiterate.
 
Kuba74
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 7:42 pm

RE: Which Order More Important LOT 787 Or EK A350?

Mon May 09, 2005 7:47 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 41):
Do you know the word "hypothetical"? I'm well aware that Junkers and Messerschmidt don't make airplanes anymore, but many Poles I know think of Airbus as a more or less German company. (I don't speak Polish, but I hear it nearly every day and it's near enough to Russian that I can understand Polish fairly well.)

Zvezda, it seems to me you are pretty prejudiced against Germany and Germans.
Udo is right, Germany is Poland's most important trading partner, and our history has nothing to do with business. BTW, believe me, Airbus is not considered in Poland as a German company.
Regards
Kuba