squirrel83
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Mon May 09, 2005 10:22 pm

This is a bizarre story ~
JUMBO jet pilots have been told they can take a nap at the controls during flights.

New guidelines - sent to all European carriers - state that a quick snooze in the cockpit "noticeably increases the attention levels in subsequent phases of flight".

The Joint Aviation Authorities' edict says the sleep must not be more than 45 minutes long. And the captain must have finished his rest half an hour before landing.

But experienced pilots fear it could lead to disaster.

One captain said: "Even on medium-range flights, fatigue can appear without warning.

"On minimum workload sectors there is no reason to ban napping but I once woke up in a three-man cockpit to find all of us had been caught napping at the same time."

Dozing pilots must also keep seatbelts and shoulder harnesses fastened to minimise "involuntary interfering on the flight controls". And at least 20 minutes must pass between the rest periods of two pilots to avoid "sleep inertia".

A cabin crew member has to ensure sure a flier is awake via an intercom to the cockpit.

The guideline adds: "Controlled rest is to be used with other fatigue-management measures such as physical exercise and intense illumination of the cockpit.

"Controlled rest must be exercised in the cruising phase where pilot tasks are less demanding."

But pilots' union Balpa warned that controlled rest periods must not become standard practice.

A spokesman said: "The scheduling of pilots' time should be done in a way that ensures they turn up rested for duty and remain fatigue free for that period of time.

"However, in the long-haul situation all the best-laid plans can go astray. A crew on the flight deck should be able to allow one of the pilots to take a rest if it is really required while ensuring that the flight deck is properly manned."

A captain for Italian carrier Alitalia was sacked last month for leaving the cockpit to sleep in a bunk bed on a flight from Rome to Miami.

Sleeping was debated at the International Federation of Airline Pilots in Cape Town, South Africa.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15488439&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=this-is-your-captain----we-are-now-snoozing-at-35-000feet-name_page.html
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
climb1
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Mon May 09, 2005 10:29 pm

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
Dozing pilots must also keep seatbelts and shoulder harnesses fastened to minimise "involuntary interfering on the flight controls".

lol! I was just about to mention "what if they lean forward in their sleep and hit the yoke?" but this kinda answers the question.
But surely a pilot could still grab the controls in their sleep if they were close enough?
I say they should stick to the bunks, just to be safe!
In my eyes the Boeing 747 will ALWAYS be the queen of the skies!
 
BMIFlyer
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Mon May 09, 2005 10:48 pm

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
A captain for Italian carrier Alitalia was sacked last month for leaving the cockpit to sleep in a bunk bed on a flight from Rome to Miami.

What gives??


Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
goboeing
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Mon May 09, 2005 10:51 pm

The aviation administrations might as well allow napping on flights because the pilots will do what they want to anyway, whether it is legal or not. If you're tired, there is nothing you can do about it and it's safer to get a quick half hour nap than to fight staying awake during the entire approach. Especially after a nine hour long redeye flight in nasty weather.

Nick
 
miamiair
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Mon May 09, 2005 10:52 pm

Never fell asleep, but I did perform an extensive inspection of my eyelids for light leaking in after I shut them...
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
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chrisnh
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 12:00 am

So these little snoozes are so the crew can be more alert in the bar once they arrive in their destination city?
 
goboeing
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 5):
So these little snoozes are so the crew can be more alert in the bar once they arrive in their destination city?

Yes, that is exactly what they are for. After twelve days of crossing the Pacific Ocean at exact opposite times of the day, the two-leg twelve hour flight back to the USA from Asia is two hours delayed. For several thousand miles they dodge thunderstorms in the dark trying to contact someone on HF. After two legs of this, maybe including an aircraft change somewhere, and no rest, the sun is coming up and they are on final approach fighting gusty crosswinds. Awake for 24 hours. I'm sure going to the bar is the first thing they plan to do.

Nick
 
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Starlionblue
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 1:29 am

It's an admission of reality. A 20 minute nap in the seat, with the other pilot awake, will improve performance and ensure the pilot is alert for more critical parts of the flight like, say, landing. This is better than falling asleep involuntarily.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Logan22L
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 6):
For several thousand miles they dodge thunderstorms in the dark

How many thunderstorms are there at FL 390?
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
av8rphx
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 3:14 am

Most cumulonimbus clouds (ie,thunderstorm clouds) can have tops anywhere from FL400 to FL600..
 
Mir
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 8):
How many thunderstorms are there at FL 390?

More than you'd think. Thunderstorms with reported tops at FL450 and upwards are not uncommon.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
goboeing
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 8):
How many thunderstorms are there at FL 390?

Enough to force a B-757-300 down to FL200 last night in Minnesota. And then lower after that. The tops were at FL400.

Nick
 
glidepath73
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 3:51 am

I flew once with SQ ZRH-SIN (744). Over India, we had to fight with some really high Cumulinonimbus clouds. The pilot had to curve around the clouds to avoid the direct contact with them. He warned the passengers to fasten the seat belt. In deed, it got really bumpy!  bouncy  No time for a nap then!
Aviation! That rocks...
 
goboeing
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 3:56 am

We're getting off topic here. The tops of the CBs can be easily way too high for a jet to get above. The point here is that the crew can be busy during the cruise phase of a flight. Even if they aren't, they can be exhausted from being awake at a time that they are usually asleep at. 3:00AM with seven hours to go is tough after marginal daytime rest, even if you aren't busy.

Naps should be made legal.

Nick
 
Boeing Nut
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
Thunderstorms with reported tops at FL450 and upwards are not uncommon.

I think the highest level ever recorded was FL680. Now that is one bitch of a storm!
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Boeing Nut
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 4:09 am

Found a link.........

http://sky-fire.tv/index.cgi/thunderstorms.html#howhigh

Almost all thunderstorm clouds grow to heights above 20,000 feet. With 35,000 feet being typical. The more intense ones continue upwards until they hit the top of the troposphere, called the tropopause. Since penetrating into the stratosphere takes a lot of energy, many cumulonimbus clouds flatten out on the tropopause into the classic anvil shape with the tip streaming off downwind. If the storm is unusually intense, the updraft may punch into the stratosphere in cauliflower-like turrets. These “trop busters” are usually severe storms, with internal updrafts perhaps exceeding 100 mph. At any given place and time the height of the tallest storms is thus controlled by the height of the troposphere. Over the U.S. the tops of the stronger storms range from 40,000 to 65,000 feet from spring through summer and from north to south, respectively. There are some radar reports of echoes exceeding 70,000 feet, but if these reports are correct, this would be a very rare event. In any case, most thunderstorms are high enough that commercial jet traffic does not fly over most storms but rather circumnavigates since there can be “surprises” inside thunderstorm tops including extreme turbulence, hail, lightning, and wind shears.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
andz
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 4:40 am

Time to rename this topic My Thundercloud is Higher than Yours.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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TheRedBaron
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 4:42 am

Imagine...sleeping F/o and captaind a the darn door closed (in compliance with terrorists guidelines)......

yeah thats whats nightmares are made of...little things that can go wrong....
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
MissedApproach
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 5:05 am

Studies have shown that pilots enduring long hours in the simulator are more likely to have, or have more episodes of, microsleep. Your eyes may even be open during a microsleep, but I assure you the brain is completely in neutral! On a long drive to Winnepeg I suddenly noticed there were different cars around me compared to what I remembered. I have no idea how long I was out. That will teach me to not book a flight!
Some links on microsleep:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsleep
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_train_disaster
Can you hear me now?
 
boeingfever777
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
"However, in the long-haul situation all the best-laid plans can go astray. A crew on the flight deck should be able to allow one of the pilots to take a rest if it is really required while ensuring that the flight deck is properly manned."

I thought in a long-haul flight that a crew member leaving the a/c and going to crew quarters to sleep was allowed? Tis the reason for 1-2 reserve pilots?

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
A captain for Italian carrier Alitalia was sacked last month for leaving the cockpit to sleep in a bunk bed on a flight from Rome to Miami.

BTW: AZ I don't even think flys FCO-MIA non-stop, I know they have a connection in ATL and it is c/s with DL Thought they fly there 777's out of MXP?

Even if it is true how did the AZ ppl know this Capt. took a nap? His f/o rat him out? Like I said a source would do.





[Edited 2005-05-09 22:35:51]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
ba299
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This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 5:45 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 19):
BTW: AZ I don't think they even fly FCO-MIA non-stop, I know they have a connection in ATL and it is c/s with DL Thought they fly there 777's out of MXP?

Yes AZ fly non-stop MXP-MIA only. I think that now they use the B767
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 19):
I thought in a long-haul flight that a crew member leaving the a/c

Wow, things have really changed. Now you can even leave the aircraft in flight to get your rest!  Smile

-Dave
-Dave
 
GoAllegheny
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 6:25 am

On short and medium haul flights (under 6 hours??), the rules should be written to ensure that the pilots have enough rest between flights. I think that is the case in the US, but I still wonder if they are working.

The rules for a long-haul flight should allow naps. The bigger concern seems to be that the pilots do not want the new nap rules to provide a justification for reducing the amount of rest between flights.
 
c680
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 3):
The aviation administrations might as well allow napping on flights because the pilots will do what they want to anyway, whether it is legal or not.

Bingo! and well said.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 4):
Never fell asleep, but I did perform an extensive inspection of my eyelids for light leaking in after I shut them...

What happens in the cockpit, stays in the cockpit.

Our crews have been doing this for years. We just make sure the other guy is *very* awake while the resting pilot re-charges his batteries.

For me, I never go into deep sleep, in fact, I still hear my callsign even while dozing off. I have been told that my radio work is better when I'm napping than awake.  Wink "Did I just respond to that hand-off to Indy Center? I can't remember. I must have been sleeping..."
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
VEEREF
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 7:45 am

I'm all for it. Pilots are only human and subject to the same physiological laws as other humans. There have been proven studies in which a quick nap can serve to increase performance. I can guarantee it's happening in cockpits all over the world already, just unoffically.
There need to be safeguards for making sure that all others are alert however. Beyond that sounds like a great idea.

And yes, a major percentage of T Boomers do climb above 390, particularly the closer you get to the Equator. But don't be fooled, you don't have to go into one to get the ride of your life. Plenty of bumps to be found in between and around them as well
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
boeingfever777
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 4:13 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 21):
Wow, things have really changed. Now you can even leave the aircraft in flight to get your rest! Smile

-Dave

BLOW ME. You know what I meant.

PPL like you make a.net a *hitty place to post on cause you have nothing civil to contribute or say.

Post on the topic.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
justplanecrazy
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 7:51 pm

During a flight deck visit to LAX with Virgin Atlantic on a 744 in 1999 the captain told me that by law pilots must have 24 hours rest when flying to the east coast of the US and 48 hours rest between flights if flying to the west coast.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 6):

Pilots wont be going 24 hrs without sleep  hypnotized 
your pilots today on this 747 flight are captain oliver hardy and assisting will be FO stan laurel.Have a safe flight
 
RightWayUp
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 8:39 pm

JustPlaneCrazy,
He was not correct. I have operated Lhr-Lax-Lhr with 24 hours rest with Virgin. Basically you need just minimum rest. Your hours are more restricted if you have a rest period between 18-30 hours, but you can still just do it. The reason you go 24 hours without sleep, is that you wakeup in Lax if you are lucky at 4am (body clock struggling to keep you asleep past noon UTC) then you takeoff at 1730 for a 10 hour flight back to LHR. Crew rest might help, but I always struggled to sleep in the bunk. Thus you land the aircraft 24 hours after you last slept.
 
FLYtoEGCC
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 9:19 pm

Personally, I'm not for it. I know a lot of you have voiced the opposite opinion, but I don't think "dozing off" on the flight deck should be allowed. Pilots are well-paid and highly trained to ensure they are competent and can carry out their duty of being fully responsible for the aircraft and its passengers at ALL times. I'm not a nervous flyer, but when my life is in the hands of two people up at the front of the aircraft, I'd be much happier if I knew they were both awake and paying attention.

If fatigue is an issue, then for me the only option is to carry relief pilots and allow them to rotate, with rest periods taking place either in a jump seat or in a bunk area - not at the controls. Many airlines already do this and it appears to work well, so why now allow pilots to fall asleep at the controls? Is it to do with money?

I do appreciate, however, what RightWayUp said - even if you do try and take the correct amount of rest, your body clock can still cause you to be tired. In this case, maybe it IS acceptable for pilots to have a short nap, but in that case I would prefer there to be three pilots up front. Despite the excellent reliability of modern aircraft, emergencies can happen, and in serious cases wouldn't two pilots be needed to share the workload?

(I accept that there are pilots that have contributed to this thread that are far better qualified to talk about this than me - what I have said is just personal opinion!)
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 10:30 pm

Quoting GoAllegheny (Reply 22):
On short and medium haul flights (under 6 hours??), the rules should be written to ensure that the pilots have enough rest between flights. I think that is the case in the US, but I still wonder if they are working.

The rules are written that way pretty much in every country. But it's sometimes hard with the body clock telling you to be awake.

Quoting FLYtoEGCC (Reply 28):
Personally, I'm not for it. I know a lot of you have voiced the opposite opinion, but I don't think "dozing off" on the flight deck should be allowed. Pilots are well-paid and highly trained to ensure they are competent and can carry out their duty of being fully responsible for the aircraft and its passengers at ALL times. I'm not a nervous flyer, but when my life is in the hands of two people up at the front of the aircraft, I'd be much happier if I knew they were both awake and paying attention.

The point is that a little rest makes them more alert and awake when it really counts. And it's not like they would ever both be asleep.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
FLYtoEGCC
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 10:35 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 29):
The point is that a little rest makes them more alert and awake when it really counts.

I take your point, and I assume by "when it really counts" you mean phases such as take-off and landing, when workload is generally the heaviest and to an extent I agree with you. Personally, however, I consider all parts of the flight to "count", whether the workload is heavy or not. There's a hell of a lot of responsibility on pilots' shoulders.

[Edited 2005-05-10 15:36:03]
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
 
goboeing
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Tue May 10, 2005 10:57 pm

Quoting Justplanecrazy (Reply 26):
Pilots wont be going 24 hrs without sleep

Pilots will be and are going 24 hours without sleep. Leave the US at noon and fly to Asia with a stop in Japan. Done at midnight home time zone. Go to sleep. Wake up eight hours later, well rested. Pickup isn't until 6PM home time zone that night. You could try to get some daytime rest, but after sleeping for eight hours how will that be possible? It practically isn't. So aside from a small nap if that even happened, pickup at 6PM to go back to the US with another stop in Japan. No rest there because there is an aircraft change and it's only 90 minutes on the ground. Takeoff in the middle of the night and land back in the US at dawn.

By shutdown at 8:00AM, it has been exactly 24 hours without sleep. It is legal, though, so you can see how regulations often do nothing at all to improve safety.

Nick
 
justplanecrazy
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RE: This Is Your Captain... We Are Now Snoozing. . .

Wed May 11, 2005 6:59 pm

Thanks for shooting me down in flames on that one RWU and GB.  white 
your pilots today on this 747 flight are captain oliver hardy and assisting will be FO stan laurel.Have a safe flight

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