Joni
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FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Mon May 09, 2005 11:34 pm

According to today's FT, trade balancing pressure applied by the US caused the Indians to place their huge order with Boeing instead of Airbus, as opposed to operational issues publicly quoted.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/7601915a-bfe8-11d9-b376-00000e2511c8.html

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avek00
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Mon May 09, 2005 11:39 pm

Given that AI is a state-owned airline and thus an extension of the Government of India, I see nothing wrong with the GOI using the AI fleet order for diplomatic ends. My beef starts when PRIVATE companies are subjected to government influence or economic support.
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BestWestern
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Mon May 09, 2005 11:41 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 1):
I see nothing wrong with the GOI using the AI fleet order for diplomatic ends. M

Except if it went the other way! lol.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
avek00
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Mon May 09, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 2):
Except if it went the other way! lol.

Not at all - the GOI is free to use AI/IC's fleet acquisitions to further any ends it desires.
Live life to the fullest.
 
BestWestern
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Mon May 09, 2005 11:58 pm

As an FT subscriber, its a pretty damming article actually - to briefly quote from it (to stay in the copyright rules).

"The problem is not that we are being protectionist but that US industry is uncompetitive," the official said.

Later...

"We would want to buy US defence equipment but there is a longstanding feeling that the US is not a reliable supplier because of the history of sanctions. This means that the one thing we can buy from them is aircraft. Ultimately there was a political difference between the two offers."


Pretty sad that the government selects the aircraft for political terms and not actual utilisation terms.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
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sebolino
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:02 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 4):
Pretty sad that the government selects the aircraft for political terms and not actual utilisation terms.

I'm shocked. NAV20 said it was because Boeing planes were far ahead of Airbus ones. I can't believe he lied.  Smile
 
jasepl
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:04 am

Ha! I posted this in another thread a few days ago:

As all of us in India are all too aware, most 'deals' involving our government have a questionable element to them. Most of them would make even the most seasoned Vegas gambler blush, so stacked is the deck.

We have no reason to expect otherwise this time around.
 
kl911
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:08 am

'The Boeing Dirty Tricks Campaign'

Hope Airbus wins this one in court, like VS did against the 'government owned' BA dirty tricks in the 80's. ( or 90's, forgot which one...)

KL911
 
jaysit
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:10 am

So what if the Govt of India decided to include national policy priorities into this mega-purchase. $ 6.5 billion isn't chump change, and whoever offers the best deal wins the prize. A cozier relationship with the US apparently trumps one with the Euros at this juncture in Indian history. So be it. Airbus did win a 43 narrowbody order. That should keep them happy. Both aircraft manufacturers aren't babes in the woods to be unaware of geo-political realities.

Its not like AI ordered Il-96s for its fleet expansion. The 777/787 family is an excellent decision.
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daedaeg
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:14 am

At this point it's all speculation. The report is citing an anonymous Indian government official. We don't know how credible this supposed official is. This official could be disgruntled or bias and using this an opportunity to vent his frustrations. But if this all turns out to be true, it's too bad that the Indian government does not have the political fortitude to make decisions based on what's best for the airline. But as been said, the 787/777 is still a great selection for AI.

[Edited 2005-05-09 17:19:43]
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jasepl
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 9):
At this point it's all speculation. The report is citing an anonymous Indian government official. We don't know how credible this supposed official is. This official could be disgruntled or bias and using this an opportunity to vent his frustrations.

I concur. However, thos of us who know India, know that that's how things work here. Chances are that there was "foul" play involved, on the part of the Government, Boeing and Airbus. Only it's not really "foul" here; it's simply par for the course.
 
eha
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 1):
My beef starts when PRIVATE companies are subjected to government influence or economic support.

So you are extremely pissed off when a company like Boeing receives US government support to get orders  Smile

Remember the El Al deal ? all these A340s which suddenly became 777 ?

E.
 
N79969
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:28 am

The FT is a respectable source. While I do not have access to the article, I do not doubt the veracity of what they write.

However I do hope that they research further back then this year and also write about how the French government were tying defense contracts to purchases of A340s several years ago. The Economist an article wrote several years ago detailing the shady circumstances (bribery) under which Indian Airlines bought the A320 in first place many years ago. The French government was not complaining about impropriety or unfairness back then.

Since the French Foreign Ministry acts a defacto sales agent for Airbus with officials departing on official business flatly stating they are out to sell Airbus equipment, I think the US simply outflanked the French and the French cannot deal with it. I think that would be a better, more thorough characterization of what occurred in this deal.

Considering that Airbus tried to force ANA (a private firm) to change its selection from Boeing to Airbus by having Mario Monti complain directly to the Japanese PM, the French complaints in this matter ring hollow but are unsurprising.
 
eha
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 12):

Considering that Airbus tried to force ANA (a private firm) to change its selection from Boeing to Airbus by having Mario Monti complain directly to the Japanese PM, the French complaints in this matter ring hollow but are unsurprising.

So what ? As I said before, Boeing fought back at times when they lost Indian Airlines orders and history is full of defeat badly accepted, whether it is Airbus or Boeing the loser...And it would be naive to think that their respective govt let them alone and do not try to put pressure on airlines/govt to reconsider cases from time to time...

Remember Thai wanted A340-500 only if UE would accept to import more shrimps from Thailand...So you can be open...Anything can happen to force/agree upon an A/C sale (but it is true for other things...)

E.
 
N79969
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:34 am

Eha,

El Al is the state-owned carrier of Israel. It is not private. I believe El Al wanted A330 and not 340.
 
avek00
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:37 am

Quoting Eha (Reply 11):
So you are extremely pissed off when a company like Boeing receives US government support to get orders

A better example would be if Boeing got subsidies (direct economic support) to build aircraft.  Smile
Live life to the fullest.
 
mrniji
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:39 am

Thread number 8174382173981274897431298742198 on the AI deal, and that dirty politics etc...

Quoting KL911 (Reply 7):
Hope Airbus wins this one in court

Hope Airbus looses in court and hope that the planes come finally, in the interest of India - I care a f--- whose planes, but NO DELAY PLEASE!!!!!.. this whining in Europe pisses me off.. if the GOI decides to involve politics: LET THEM.. IT IS A SOVEREIGN COUNTY.. accept it or don't it is up to you - we can decide ourselves, and there is no legal basis to sue the GOI: WTO criteria not relevant, and Airbus is no legal Indian person, so Indian law does not count, as they can't start a process.. but please stop whining and stop with these stupid statements (tons of you on anet, KL911)
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
N79969
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:45 am

Quoting Eha (Reply 13):
So what ? As I said before, Boeing fought back at times when they lost Indian Airlines orders and history is full of defeat badly accepted,

Not really. The only instance I recall Boeing acting like a real bad loser is after it lost the Iberia deal to the A340-600. And that was after Iberia blatantly gamed them to save a few bucks on Airbus. There is no parallel to the hysterics of the Airbus and the French.
 
jasepl
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 14):
El Al is the state-owned carrier of Israel. It is not private. I believe El Al wanted A330 and not 340.

El Al were privatised some time ago. After the Israeli government sold them, there was talk that El Al might buy Airbus - as originally intended. I remember the furore that caused here on ANet!
 
N79969
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:51 am

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 18):
El Al were privatised some time ago. After the Israeli government sold them, there was talk that El Al might buy Airbus - as originally intended. I remember the furore that caused here on ANet!

Yes I do realize that and forgot to say "was". El Al was the state owned carrier of Israel when the US told them not to send part of the billions they receive from US taxpayers to France.
 
eha
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 15):
A better example would be if Boeing got subsidies (direct economic support) to build aircraft.

One for sure would say they receive direct economic support to build military A/C but that not the point...The loan thing you seem to mention is covered by a bilateral agreement signed in 92 (UE/US) which specifies the amount of loan allowed from the UE to Airbus for the development of a new program (capped to 1/ of the total dev costs),and also specify all what Boeing can benefits from (NASA program etc...)....This damn thing has been signed by both parties...

Back to the subject, I took your statement the other way around : A governement supporting its private industry : ex: the US govt and Boeing (therefore the El Al example).

Quoting N79969 (Reply 14):
El Al is the state-owned carrier of Israel. It is not private. I believe El Al wanted A330 and not 340.

Answered above. You're right Airbus pitched A330-300 and A340-300 to El Al while Boeing the 767-400ER and 777-200LR...Airbus got the deal done or so it seems for 3 A330, but then Allbright came into play...

That's fair, given the fact that they would pay with US subsidie (not loan...) Smile).

E.
 
shawnnyc
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 12:54 am

I think it is amazing that so much is being made of this AI order. Airbus has stopped at nothing in proving that the selection was not on "merit". They did after all win the IA order, so they shouldn't feel this snubbed (they are acting like the overall competitiveness of their product line is being undermined by this order). Its getting to the point that I think Indians have a right at being annoyed. Indians democratically elected this government, if they feel they are corrupt, they will throw them out.

In the end the decision between A & B was probably pretty close (if not slanted to B because of the new market environment in India post economic boom and market liberalization). The political climate just sealed it in favor of Boeing. I say kudos to India for finally behaving like every other country in the world by putting their interests first. If America can give India outsourcing jobs, technology transfers, immigration/work visas, etc, giving America the Boeing order is a no brainer when there would be no/minimum negatives to AI.

Finally I do not feel it was because of corruption that AI chose not to buy into the A380 philosophy. It doesn't look like any Indian carrier will go for the A380 for some time. They will all concentrate on flying internationally from several Indian points, with no mega hub, as well as non-stops to the US/Canada. For that strategy, I think it is hard to say that AI will suffer with the likes of the 777LR.
 
mrniji
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 1:04 am

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 21):
Finally I do not feel it was because of corruption that AI chose not to buy into the A380 philosophy.

Exactly, but these Europeans will argue throughout: "Look, they didn't choose our baby, the A380, so they are underdeveloped, dumb, corrupt etc.." - they do not realize that the 380 does not suit the RFP (Request for Prposals) . i.e., in other words, and in all utter clearness:

A I R - I N D I A DID NOT ASK FOR SUCH A PLANE AS THE A380.. AND IF THEY DUN WANNA, IT IS THEIR RIGHT!!! WHY FORCE AI IF THEY HAVE A STRATEGY FOR MCLR AND ULR, AND THEN ARGUE: THESE CORRUPT INDIANS! - my goodness
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Lemurs
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 1:17 am

One thing that people need to differentiate between is corruption and international trade relations. AI and India choosing Boeing over Airbus because of favorable trade relations is an obvious boon to both economies. Even if everything was equal between the planes, that would tip the balance in Boeing's favor, and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

It becomes corruption when individuals acting outside the interests of the state take money to move the decision in a direction that is not beneficial for anyone but themselves. Unless they can prove that, the fact that trade factored into the purchase is a non-issue.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
mrniji
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 23):
One thing that people need to differentiate between is corruption and international trade relations.

Agreed! Even if Airbus had the cheaper offer.. maybe the deal with the US/Boeing is better for the whole Indian economy per se, rather than with Airbus/Europe.. so many, many other factors other than operational are involved, which could make the B order more favorable.. in terms ofpolitical economy: of course India has to go with the US, as Europe's performance on the World Market is gradually declining  Yeah sure
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
jaysit
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 1:35 am

El Al was the state owned carrier of Israel when the US told them not to send part of the billions they receive from US taxpayers to France.

And the US was perfectly right in doing so.
Ditto for Pakistan and the 777 orders.
There's a quid pro quo in all of this.

As long as there was no bribery of government officials involved, and negotiations all took place within the context of foreign policy and trade objectives, it's par for the course.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Leskova
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 1:39 am

Why do I, when reading through this (and the other threads), get the impression that this subject needs a bit of a cooling-off-period...

First of all, it is certainly within India's rights to make a decision about an acquisition of airplanes of this magnitude dependant on more than just the technical/economic evaluation of then planes themselves.

But if this report does turn out to be true, it will, most certainly, at least taint Air India's claims that the decision for Boeing was made mainly because of errors Airbus made in their presentation (or in them not giving a presentation) to Air India. Had India and/or Air India stated from the beginning that political aspects would play a role, instead of repeatedly claiming that they had not played a role, the whole situation would look completely different today.

And, no, I'm not naive enough - and neither do I expect anyone within Airbus to be - to believe that neither Airbus nor Boeing were expecting politics to play a role in this - personally, I'd just see this as a matter of trust: if you're dealing with someone who repeatedly confirms that solely the evaluation of the products in question will be relevant, but it later gets revealed that political reasons were very involved as well, the trustworthiness of the person, company and/or country making the claims gets called into question.

Let me restate my main point: it is absolutely within India's rights to make a decision based on whatever factors India considers relevant, and I do not see a point that would give Airbus a right to demand a re-evaluation.

But, just as well, it is absolutely within Airbus' rights to reconsider how, or if, they'll be dealing with Air India in the future - just as Boeing will have gone through a similar process after Iberia's A340-600 deal.

As usual in situations like this, in the long run, both sides will eventually have lost something through all of this.

Regards,
Frank
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Lemurs
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 26):
As usual in situations like this, in the long run, both sides will eventually have lost something through all of this.

Excellent post, but I disagree with this last point. As you point out, both sides are intimately familiar with this kind of politicing, as both the victor and loser. I sincerely doubt Airbus will think twice about diving right into the next negotiation, and even using it to their favor if possible. It's in their best interest to pretend it never even happened. I think the blow-up here is caused more by some hot-tempered individuals than a real institutional backlash from A as a whole. There's always a new trade issue that comes around that people focus on.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
Joni
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 9:40 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 22):
A I R - I N D I A DID NOT ASK FOR SUCH A PLANE AS THE A380.. AND IF THEY DUN WANNA, IT IS THEIR RIGHT!!! WHY FORCE AI IF THEY HAVE A STRATEGY FOR MCLR AND ULR, AND THEN ARGUE: THESE CORRUPT INDIANS! - my goodness

I don't think anyone has claimed that Airbus would have offered the A380 here, so this is an egregious strawman argument.
 
N79969
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 9:51 pm

Like I say above, without having read the article I defer to the FT as I consider it respectable and accurate publication.

Even conceding that this deal was probably politically tainted, the AI fleet decision mirrors recent choices of more apolitical airlines such as Air Canada, Korean Air, Northwest or even Air France who have opted for either 787 or 777NG or both over competing A350 or A340NG in their respective niches.
 
BestWestern
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 10:08 pm

Todays FT main editorial slams the Indian government - to quote just a small part of the editorial: http://news.ft.com/cms/s/00e6666a-c0f2-11d9-a3da-00000e2511c8.html

"Rarely, in a democratic market economy, has the linkage been closer or more blatant than in the decision by the state-owned Air India to cancel plans to split a $7bn contract between Boeing and Airbus and to award the entire order to Boeing."

"India should recognise it is heading down a dangerous slope. There is still time to change course. The Air India deal demands an independent investigation. Delhi must also ensure that large forthcoming orders for military aircraft, and for Indian Airlines ... are awarded in a fair and open manner, with value for money the sole criterion."

and the last sentance sums it all up:

"Delhi should also open its market faster to international competition and improve its so far niggardly offers in the Doha round. That, not backroom political fixes, is the most effective way to deal with US pressure over trade."

However, it also accuses Airbus of winning other battles thanks to government intervention - what comes around goes around. In the end what happens is that the airline just pays more, as there is less need for the manufacturers to offer a discount.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
mrcomet
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Tue May 10, 2005 10:21 pm

It is naive to look at this order as stolen from Airbus. Airbus and Boeing use the same techniques and Airbus even invented some new ones.

However, you can twist arms and still have a better/cheaper product at the same time.  Smile
The dude abides
 
wgw2707
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 1:15 am

Contrary to the belief of some in this thread, the foreign business activities of US companies are restricted by the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, a law which prohibits American business from engaging in bribery or other corruption (that is, of course, illegal in the United States) overseas.

Some economists have actually argued that the FCPA hurts US businesses by giving businesses from other countries not legally bound to operate with integrity a competitive advantage in international trade. The fact remains, however, if Boeing was found to have bribed Indian government officials, it would be a big scandal. Not that Boeing hasn't had some of those recently.

However, to me, this article looks like the rantings of disgruntled Europeans furious that Air India is delaying their existing Airbus order and simultaneously ordering Boeing aircraft.

My belief is that as aircraft manufacturers go, Airbus and Boeing are both equally pathetic, and the infusion of petty geopolitical sentiment into their operations is absolutely moronic. I honestly wish Airbus would sell 50% of its stock to US holders and Boeing do the opposite so we could have an end to these tiresome A vs B wars, which seem not to just be a phenomena of airliners.net but something that intrudes into such "respectable" forums as the Financial Times.

-WGW2707
 
shawnnyc
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 30):
"Rarely, in a democratic market economy, has the linkage been closer or more blatant than in the decision by the state-owned Air India to cancel plans to split a $7bn contract between Boeing and Airbus and to award the entire order to Boeing."

Whoa, the FT editorial is out of line. Is India still a European colony, I think not. The editorial asks India not to be political, but then asks it to be. First off the $7bn order was never going to be split between A & B. Why should AI have to split an order, to be fair btw the US and Europe? No, India does not need to do that anymore. Has Europe agreed to make every decision based on merit/economics? Second, many democratic countries make decisions based on their national interest and not soley on economics (recent examples: US, Poland, Israel, etc). Third, the only reason that India bought non US fighter aircraft in the first place was because it did not trust US supplies of spares. Plus which major country in the world makes defense purchases without considering allies and politics. I hope the US allows the assembly of the F-18s in India, and India goes for it.

This editorial is clearly not about the the Boeing deal, it is about the big picture. Europe sees India getting increasingly intertwined with America (militarily and economically), and they don't like it. Slandering India, and essentially Indians, is not the way to influence things. It is up to India to decide if it is getting more form the US or Europe. I think the Indian democracy has proven it will throw out governments that are corrupt and do not put India's interest first. The thing is, it seems that most Indians support what's happening between the US and India. So let it be.

Side note: I thought the word "niggardly" had been retired from usage.
 
travelin man
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 30):
"India should recognise it is heading down a dangerous slope. There is still time to change course. The Air India deal demands an independent investigation. Delhi must also ensure that large forthcoming orders for military aircraft, and for Indian Airlines ... are awarded in a fair and open manner, with value for money the sole criterion."

The FT may be respectable, but I disagree with this paragraph of their editorial. As someone who analyzes proposals and selects vendors, I can honestly say that there is more to the decision process than "value for the money". As long as Air India is government-owned, it will be subject to political pressures. Rather than calling for an "independent investigation" (investigate what, exactly?), the FT should be calling for AI to be privatized.
 
mrniji
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 2:06 am

Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 33):
Whoa, the FT editorial is out of line. Is India still a European colony, I think not. The editorial asks India not to be political, but then asks it to be. First off the $7bn order was never going to be split between A & B. Why should AI have to split an order, to be fair btw the US and Europe? No, India does not need to do that anymore. Has Europe agreed to make every decision based on merit/economics? Second, many democratic countries make decisions based on their national interest and not soley on economics (recent examples: US, Poland, Israel, etc). Third, the only reason that India bought non US fighter aircraft in the first place was because it did not trust US supplies of spares. Plus which major country in the world makes defense purchases without considering allies and politics. I hope the US allows the assembly of the F-18s in India, and India goes for it.

This editorial is clearly not about the the Boeing deal, it is about the big picture. Europe sees India getting increasingly intertwined with America (militarily and economically), and they don't like it. Slandering India, and essentially Indians, is not the way to influence things. It is up to India to decide if it is getting more form the US or Europe. I think the Indian democracy has proven it will throw out governments that are corrupt and do not put India's interest first. The thing is, it seems that most Indians support what's happening between the US and India. So let it be.

I fully agree, brilliant analysis, very well-elaborated.. I used to say similiar stuff in other threads, and 95 % of a,netter come and say: "Gosh, are you anti-American, anti-European, a fascist, illiterate or whatsoever" - glad I am not the only one who takes this approach

Airbus can try to lick our feet.. we might like it or just kick in the middle of their visage

Bullshit article.. no one can force us to buy something
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 2:09 am

I wonder why the same author didn't challenge Air Canada's decision? Air Canada included the 350 and didn't use the 9-abreast configuration. The final decision was no different from Air India's. Was Air Canada corrupted? Was Air Canda incompetent? Was Air Canada unfair? I wonder why two airlines reached to the same conclusion independently, yet one got so much more negative press?

Airbus needs to examine their product line, not how Air India made their decision.
 
Joni
Topic Author
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RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 6:12 pm

Quoting WGW2707 (Reply 32):
Contrary to the belief of some in this thread, the foreign business activities of US companies are restricted by the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act



Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 36):
Was Air Canada corrupted?

FT didn't imply that Boeing had bribed the Indians (or Canadians), but that the US government applied pressure for the Indians to place their entire order with Boeing. This isn't entirely unheard-of in commercial aviation and the reason FT takes issue with it is because it conflicts their "free trade" dogma. The reason I brought FT's information up on this forum is that many people here appeared to be under the impression that the 787 had edged out the A350 on technical performance.

With regard to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, well, I suppose it's possible that the lawmakers meant well when they made that particular law but we shouldn't necessarily read anything more into it. Possibly even they didn't even mean well - it's hard to say. It's unthinkable that that Act would be applied to Boeing when they land a 7BUSD export deal.
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 6:28 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 37):
The reason I brought FT's information up on this forum is that many people here appeared to be under the impression that the 787 had edged out the A350 on technical performance.

I think it is very difficult to estimate the technical performance of two planes that have never taken off.. you can always compare rae technical data, but you need the empirical validation of real performance.. Everyone knows that the order was politcially motivated, and I agree with you that the people who used the AI order for propagating the superiority of B towards a are fools

Quoting Joni (Reply 37):
This isn't entirely unheard-of in commercial aviation and the reason FT takes issue with it is because it conflicts their "free trade" dogma.

This is the approach of US policy ever since.. liberalism, as long as we benefit, and if we don't benefit we will force the others to do as we like and call the others communists. The foreign and economic policy of the states lacks of credibility and has a history of many black years.. it is a big shame, I agree. Btw if you believe that the US stands for free trade: there are many protectionist ambitions by the latter... They are dancing their hip-hop with whom they like, call sanctions against whom they like, look for Oil (in the name of WMD) where they like... pitty, as the People of America are great, but government has failed... maybe Reagans idea of no government would be good.. but then these MNCs will act as unscrupolous as they already do.... pah, sth is wrong with the power structures.. now, you're welcome to bash me  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
jeffrito
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon May 28, 2001 3:17 am

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 7:36 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 37):
The reason I brought FT's information up on this forum is that many people here appeared to be under the impression that the 787 had edged out the A350 on technical performance.

Fair orders would be won on the basis of economic performance, not technical performance.
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1586
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 8:36 pm

I don't think any of the Europeans here can have any idea how much long term damage they are doing to their own cause.

Indians won't take kindly to these paternalistic hangovers from the Colonial days.

Airbus just reminded the Indians of European Colonialism once again.

By the way, don't be surprised if this little outburst from Airbus costs them the IA narrowbody order also.

Airbus is behaving like a leaderless organisation.

Ruscoe
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18403
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 8:40 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 40):
Indians won't take kindly to these paternalistic hangovers from the Colonial days.

That is so patronizing, both to Indians and to Europeans.

When did it become "paternalism" to say what you believe is the truth?

If Airbus, or the Financial Times, believe what they are saying to be true, then it would be paternalism if they lied, so as not to hurt anyone's feelings.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1586
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 8:45 pm

Needless to say Mainer I disagree with you and from the reaction of some very important Indians they do to.

Try reading a few Indian articles about it.

Ruscoe
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18403
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 8:57 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 42):
Try reading a few Indian articles about it.

You think I have not?

But just because something is unpopular does not mean it should not be said.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
TGV
Posts: 717
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:37 pm

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 9:28 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 12):
...the French government ...
the French government ...
the French Foreign Ministry ...
the French and the French...
the French complaints



Quoting N79969 (Reply 17):
... the French.



Quoting N79969 (Reply 19):
... to France.

You may have a problem with France and the French, but let me indicate a quite well known fact: EADS and Airbus are NOT French. France does not even have a majority share in EADS, which has its head office in Amsterdam.

Following is an excerpt from the EADS website:

"European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company EADS N.V.
Le Carré, Beechavenue 130-132, 1119 PR, Schiphol-Rijk, The Netherlands
Seat (statutaire zetel): Amsterdam

Legal Form
The Company is a public limited liability company (naamloze vennootschap) organized under the laws of The Netherlands."

On the other hand I am very pleased to see that most people here consider that public expenses can be related with political/economical pressures and balances between countries.

The only thing is that I don't remember having seen a so strong support of such a position when Poland bought F16 and not European made fighters (whichever model), using public money (and arguably a part of the subsidies they just received as a new EU member).

Consistency is difficult to combine with national interest !
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 10:26 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 37):
FT didn't imply that Boeing had bribed the Indians (or Canadians), but that the US government applied pressure for the Indians to place their entire order with Boeing. This isn't entirely unheard-of in commercial aviation and the reason FT takes issue with it is because it conflicts their "free trade" dogma.

Even if that's the case, the European governments have done their share of pressuring foreign airlines to buy Airbus products. Why do you think THY with a large 737NG fleet ordered the 32x?

Quote:

The reason I brought FT's information up on this forum is that many people here appeared to be under the impression that the 787 had edged out the A350 on technical performance.

For the sake of argument, let's assume Air India's decision was strictly political, then you tell me why Air Canada is ordering the 777/787? In addition to Air Canada, why do other customers with strong Airbus presence, such as Korean and Northwest, order the 787? If you don't think the 787 has technical/economical advantage over the 350, why do you think the order race is 255 to 10? Wake up and smell the coffee!

Quote:

With regard to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, well, I suppose it's possible that the lawmakers meant well when they made that particular law but we shouldn't necessarily read anything more into it. Possibly even they didn't even mean well - it's hard to say. It's unthinkable that that Act would be applied to Boeing when they land a 7BUSD export deal.

Hmm.. You obviously are implying that Boeing has bribed someone to get the order. I guess you just can't stand Airbus losing big orders and will say anything to make yourself feel better. This is sad!

Quoting TGV (Reply 44):
You may have a problem with France and the French, but let me indicate a quite well known fact: EADS and Airbus are NOT French. France does not even have a majority share in EADS, which has its head office in Amsterdam.

You can spin all you want. Where EADS is located is completely irrelevant. The Germans and the Frenchmen filled all the top positions at EADS. Airbus's major operation is in Toulouse, France. Airbus has been headed by a Frenchman, and France is still trying to make the next Airbus head a Frenchman. But the Germans have resisted. The power struggle goes on. If you think the French government doesn't play a major role in the Airbus politics both within the company and outside the company, you are in self denial.
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1510
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 10:39 pm

From the wires...

Air India Takes `Strong Exception' to Airbus Charges
May 11, 2005 09:09 EDT -- Air India Ltd. said it has taken ``strong exception'' to charges by Airbus SAS that it didnÆt receive a fair chance in the bidding process for a 50-plane deal won by rival Boeing Co.

I don't think this helps Airbus at all. Afterall, India is a sovereign nation and they can do whatever they please. Fair or not or principle - Airbus should shut up and hope they would go for the A380 in the future. Now, why should AI ever think of Airbus... 747Adv has a real chance now joining their fleet when the time comes to replace the 747... more so than ever before.... good going Airbus... should of kept your trap shut...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 11:04 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 40):
Indians won't take kindly to these paternalistic hangovers from the Colonial days.

Airbus just reminded the Indians of European Colonialism once again.

ROTFLMFAO! That was effing hilarious!

European colonialism is long gone and people have moved on. You might want to do the same!
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2537
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 11:23 pm

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 45):

Even if that's the case, the European governments have done their share of pressuring foreign airlines to buy Airbus products. Why do you think THY with a large 737NG fleet ordered the 32x?

Ever looked at their medium- and longhaul fleet?
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
RMenon
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:51 pm

RE: FT: Trade Politics Tipped AI Order To Boeing

Wed May 11, 2005 11:23 pm

Anybody who thinks the FT is living in a colonialist past either does not read very much or has forgotten when FT slammed Airbus for winning the IC A320 deal under shady circumstances.

FT is making a point about GOI using an aircraft order to appease USA while ignoring the larger trade issues - these trade issues persist and the US will continue to press India on those - the Boeing order just bought GOI some time.

Also anybody who thinks that the FCPA prevents US cos from bribing in India is naive. Wonder where Mkting support fees paid to mkt development 3rd parties headed by retired Govt officials go to....

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