northernlights
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KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Fri May 13, 2005 8:16 pm

KLM to start Business Class only flights to the States.

Source: Telegraaf newspaper 13may05

AMSTERDAM - KLM will start this fall with a new service between Amsterdam and Houston aimed at the business class travellers. In the aircraft used on this route there will be a single business class configuration.

After Houston KLM will also start special business class only flights from Amsterdam to New York, Chicago and Detroit. These flights will be operated along the existing services to these destinations. The Swiss lease company Privat Air will operate the services to Houston on behalf of KLM. The service will apparently be operated by specially fitted and configurated Boeing 737-700's.

KLM wishes to attract the bigger Dutch multinationals, such as Shell, Akzo Nobel, Nationale-Nederlanden and Unilever and other major suppliers of business class pax.

NOTE: does anybody know more about this news?
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Fri May 13, 2005 8:51 pm

Haven't heard this before now. Wonder what the fares will be like vs World Business Class?
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thomasphoto60
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Fri May 13, 2005 8:55 pm

Certainly is an honour for IAH to be the launch city for these operations. I'll have to notify my friends and fellow spotters down in H-Town about this. BTW, does a 737-700 have the range to make a n/s flight from AMS to IAH (assuming that this will be a n/s flight)?

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Joost
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Fri May 13, 2005 9:00 pm

What surprises me even more is that they decided to run them along the existing flights from AMS. I would expect this rather at RTM, that would be a very nice option for companies based in the Rotterdam-area.

On the long run, I don't think it's the best news. It could be a preparation for transfering more flights to CDG.
 
AF-A319
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Fri May 13, 2005 9:06 pm

What surprises me is the fact that KL has decided to outsource this new service to PrivatAir. On the other hand, KL's sister company, AF, also operates narrowbody services to business destinations (the A319LR Dedicate). However, the AF's Dedicate flights are mostly operated by AF (only one a/c is operated by a franchise partner).

So why don't KL follow AF's path and operates these flights on its own?
 
mdl21483
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Fri May 13, 2005 9:12 pm

Sounds like KLM is interested in doing something similar to what Lufthansa did on the Munich (i think) to Newark route operated by PrivatAir BBJs as well. What are KLM's payload statistics for the current 744/763 operations into IAH?

~Melanie~
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FlySSC
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Fri May 13, 2005 9:23 pm

Quoting AF-A319 (Reply 4):
On the other hand, KL's sister company, AF, also operates narrowbody services to business destinations (the A319LR Dedicate).

 no  No. "Dedicate" is NOT an "all-business" service. Dedicate is simply a long haul flight operated with a narrowbody A319LR, with a different inflight service from the regular "Espace Affaire" long-haul.
AF's Dedicate A319LR are configured with 28 Business and 54 Economy.
 
jwenting
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Fri May 13, 2005 9:36 pm

Most likely KLM wants to try the idea first using some leased material before spending tens of millions of FrancMarks on new aircraft.
I wish I were flying
 
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drerx7
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Fri May 13, 2005 9:38 pm

A 737-700 or BBJ have the range for AMS-IAH?
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
KLMA330
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Fri May 13, 2005 9:51 pm

BBJ's have extended range due to the fact that they're alot lighter than normal 737's. Still though seems like a loooong way to go on a narrowbody. I can imagine it being a pretty comfortable plane for sure!

Good on KLM. It makes sense though, considering the oil business in both cities! I wonder if this is a market British Airways will ever enter.. I mean, if anyone needs dedicated Business flights, it's BA from London! Think of all the possible destinations. Then perhaps they can use smaller widebodies for the rest of the "commoners"  Wink
 
northwest 777
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Fri May 13, 2005 10:19 pm

Does anyone ever think their could be some type of all-biz only or a mix of biz and first class operation from the west coast to Europe, or even from the West Cost to high yield spots in Asia? Before you laugh about the transpacific service, of course it wouldn't be with 319/320 or 737s, but 757s (As a stop-gap measure until the 787 arrives.) Of course, for the operation of West-Coast to Asia flights, the 757's be modified with, FIRST AND FOREMOST, the addition of extra fuel tanks in the belly where there would be freed up space due to the lack of coach class bags and for extra measure make sure you've go some winglets on it.

And of course, these setups are not setup like the now defunct National had them with over 100 business seats all the way down the plane, but instead have about 60 (or however many they could get away with and still not go over weight considering the amount of fuel they'll have onboard) lie flat business seats allowing LAX-NRT or LAX-LHR, easily! (Remember, we're not talking about the CO 757s flying over the pond on 5 hr flights that don't need modifications. I'm talking about adding a big belly fuel tank. They've easily got the powerplants to haul up the extra weight.). I even wonder (and you may have to really hold your laughter on this one) but if someone did a 757 with a setup having 5 or 6 rows up front or 1x1 'Emirates' style Suites for first class and the remaining space going to some lie-flat biz class seats, allowing for some high-yeild spots in Asia, mainly Japan and China, for exampe. Operating a 757 setup in a config. like this (in most cases) would only seem to make sense if the carrier can operate 2 flights a day. With this 757, it could allow the airline to switch to a smaller widebody for the other flight of the day to pick up the coach passengers, a few more business class pax. (they love flight time options!) and of course the cargo. Of course, Like I kind of mentioned, airlines that fly the routes I have mapped out in the link beliow have no porblem operating them with big 747s, I was thinking of the carriers that wont to get rid of their 4-holers and add more frequency for business travelers. Also, I was thinking of carriers that may be in financially booming city in China that would like to serve such a flight.

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=l...GE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=120

As far as the Europe flights, they're really the ones operating a long haul 757 like this for. I would assume its just a matter of time until we see some wingletted, all biz or maybe first and biz 757's flying west coast to Multiple spots in Europe. I used LAX as the starting part just for demo purposes only, and not because of any ties between LA and any of the cities I should the distances to. I could easily see these types of 757 Business or Bus/First flights originating in YVR as well. I'D love something like that here in SEA but don't know of any specific Commercial ties between my area and Europe, not that they don't exist.

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=l...GE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=120

I guess I see the West-Coast to Europe All Bus or Bus/First 757 flights as feasible simply because of carriers already flying the route that could ( if permitted to do so ) just operate two flights on the route day, one being the 757 while being able to downgrade from whatever their sole aircraft was before, say a 747 to a smaller aircraft, A332/763 for example, simply to pick up the lower class passengers as well as maybe a few more business passengers, but mostly allowing the full use of the underbelly to carry money-making cargo. Also, with a second flight, even if you only have the plane setup to carry a smaller number of business class passengers, these passengers are they given flexibility in scheduling which they may not have had on the carriers previous once a day flight.

I don't know, I'm just having fun with this post so please don't bash me to too hard if its completely ludicrous, got it Wink I'm fully aware, that, for example, the the 757s flying Trans-Pacific flights (although if modified, they could probably do it with an extra fuel tank because of the freed up space from not hauling tourists' luggage and a set of winglets, even at 120 mins. ETOPS) are not that realistic, most likely because if the carrier doesn't have the ability to operate another daily flight, this time with a widebody to enable them to carry the the coach passengers, a few more business travelers (whom now have more flexibility might I add  Wink) and the all important cargo.

Feel free to pick my post apart, I've been up all night and I can't sleep, saw this post so I decided to run this idea I've had.
 
texdravid
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 5:30 am

How impressive for IAH!!

Man, this means daily 744M AMS-IAH-AMS, thrice weekly 767 AMS-IAH-AMS and now this BBJ AMS-IAH-AMS!

This on top of CO's own AMS-IAH service.

I simply didn't realize how busy the oil run is between these two cities, and why IAH is one of KLM's best performing cities.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
dutchjet
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 5:38 am

I was rather surpirsed by the announcement. Its interesting that KL plans to operate the all J class flights IN ADDITION TO its regular flights, different from the LH strategy where the PrivatAir flights operate in markets that do not have a standard LH flight. Its an interesting way to increase J class seats on specific routes without flooding the market with excess capacity - its going to be interesting to see which service premium pax prefer - the front cabin of a widebody or an all J class 737BBJ. Does Privatair have 4 or 5 additional 737BBJS on order?

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 11):
How impressive for IAH!!

Man, this means daily 744M AMS-IAH-AMS, thrice weekly 767 AMS-IAH-AMS and now this BBJ AMS-IAH-AMS!

This on top of CO's own AMS-IAH service.

I simply didn't realize how busy the oil run is between these two cities, and why IAH is one of KLM's best performing cities.

Good point, it is surprising. Also remember that the IAH-AMS connects the KL and CO hubs; DTW-AMS is flown up to five times daily during the summer season to connect the KL and NW hubs.
 
LJ
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 3):
What surprises me even more is that they decided to run them along the existing flights from AMS. I would expect this rather at RTM, that would be a very nice option for companies based in the Rotterdam-area.

There are no slots available at RTM.
 
N1120A
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 2):
BTW, does a 737-700 have the range to make a n/s flight from AMS to IAH (assuming that this will be a n/s flight)?

Yes, it does. A lightly loaded BBJ flew BFI-JED non-stop, AMS-IAH in all business is easy

Quoting KLMA330 (Reply 9):
BBJ's have extended range due to the fact that they're alot lighter than normal 737's.

Actually, they are heavier. The BBJ1 is a 737-700 airframe with the wing from the 737-800 (Stronger, but heavier), high rated engines and extra fuel tanks. It is also longer ranged than the A319CJ/LR.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
mauriceb
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 5:56 am

this will not mean the end of AMS-IAH regular service, since KLM is marketing the route already for a long time, since it will be the first City to be served with the A330.. Also the business class is at its best at the AMS-IAH route so im not suprised.....


good one KLM  Smile
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 15):
since it will be the first City to be served with the A330

Wow, this is the first I heard of this. Which A/C will this replace? Hopefully not the 744M. Any idea when this service starts?

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
mauriceb
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 6:02 am

Wow, this is the first I heard of this. Which A/C will this replace? Hopefully not the 744M. Any idea when this service starts?


767, starting in august


greetz  Smile
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The

Sat May 14, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 17):

Great news for the IAH Spotters, too bad I won't be back down there until Oct.

Thanks,

Thomas

[Edited 2005-05-13 23:05:58]
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
klmcedric
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 7:08 am

Maurice B,

Unless this is completely new, I'm afraid you're wrong about the A-330 serving
IAH as first destination.
The first A-330 will be delivered the 25th of august and will begin commercial
service shortly after flying to IAD (Washington Dulles).
Is it possible you got confused because of the resembling airport codes IAD-IAH?
Greets, Cedric
 
HT
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 7:24 am

Regarding use (and experience) of Privat Air 737BBJ1 for LH service MUC-EWR there´s thread MUC To NYC (B-Class) In A B737: Experience? (by HT May 13 2005 in Civil Aviation) incidentally initiated by me earlier today.
Replay #4 of that thread contains a link to a Trip Report created by FlyK; other useful bits of information can be found in replies 11 & 12.
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
mauriceb
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 7:26 am

woops... sorry guy's.... IAD/IAH i messed up with the H and D... but eventually both will become A330 airports since they will replace the 767  Wink
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 21):
woops... sorry guy's.... IAD/IAH i messed up with the H and D... but eventually both will become A330 airports since they will replace the 767 Wink

Damn.....Oh well, IAH will get it eventually.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 7:56 am

What is funny on this site is how many people say they wouldn't fly a narrowbody across the pond. Now, this is a narrowbody, but I'd like to see who WOULDN'T fly it, based on the fact that it's only a narrowbody
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
avek00
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 8:05 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 23):
What is funny on this site is how many people say they wouldn't fly a narrowbody across the pond

Well, plenty of a.net posters like/want to fly on the Upper Deck of a 747, so I'm sure that there aren't too many anti-long haul narrowbody folks here...  Wink
Live life to the fullest.
 
behramjee
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 9:23 am

This new AMS-IAH all J class flight will for sure be also aimed at transitting pax heading to the oil rich destinations of Nigeria, Arabia and other African states on KLMs route network.
 
N77014
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 12:20 pm

Interesting. As if IAH-AMS already had significant traffic, and now this.

Seems we are heading for a ditchotomy in air service; ultra big jets for big city pairs, and high performance niche aircraft tailored for niche markets.

I think this also boosts IAH as probably the premier gateway to europe from the south-central USA.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
baw716
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 1:28 pm

Hi all,
I have done a dispatch calculation on a BBJ with 48 passengers AMS-IAH with a 50kt headwind component. The following are the calculations for weights/fuel/and routing, based on standard route (not necessarily RVSM today's NAT chart).

OEWLB - 94980
PAYLOAD - 8160 (48 PAX X 170) winter weight
1360 ( 8 CREW-3 PILOTS/5 FA'S)
2880 (BAGS 56 PAX X 60LBS AVR)
500 (CATERING EQUIPMENT)
TOTAL P/L 12900
ZFW 107880 MAX ZFW 126000LBS
FUEL 62997 TRIP FUEL PLUS 30MIN TAXI AND 90MIN HOLD/DIVERT
TGW 170877 MTGW 171500LBS
TOW 169377 MTOW 170000LBS
LNDW 112299 MLDW 134000LBS

FLT REL IFR PVT020 EHAM-24/KIAH-27 MACH 80 A/C B737-700BBJ W/ CFM56-7B27B3
FUEL TIME CORR TOGWT LDGWT AVG W/C
TAXI 000750 0030 . . . . 170877 112299 M050
DEST KIAH 057828 1055 . . . . ELEV. 95 FT
RESV 003273 0045 . . . .
ALTN 001145 0015 . . . . ALTN KHOU DIST 20
HOLD 000000 0000 . . . .
EXTRA 000000 0000 . . . . ZFW 107880 PAYLOAD 012900
TTL AT TO 062247 1155 . . . . DIST 4412
REQD 062997 1225 . . . . ETD

(FPL-PVT020=IS
-B737
-ZZZZ-EHAM0000
-N0409390 EHAM BERGI UL602 SUPUR UP1 GODOS UM981 NEW UL602 GOW UN580 TIR UN572 GOMUP 5900N/02000W 5900N/03000W 5800N/04000W 5500N/05000W CARPE REDBY N204B TAFFY ALB EMI J48 MOL J22 VUZ JAN
AEX DAS5 KIAH
-KIAH1055 KHOU
-)

This establishes with a full load, the BBJ can make it all the way from AMS to IAH just at the edge of the maximum range for the aircraft. Of course, Boeing says the range is 6165 miles, going across the North Atlantic in any kind of weather especially westbound, there is a headwind component of anywhere from 30-80 knots that has to be factored in, so that will bring the range down considerably. I factored in a 50kt headwind into my calculations, which will totally bring my range down by about 20%.

However, with a flight time of just under 11 hrs, this is about the speed of what you would expect in any of the fastest jumbo jets, and the BBJ can fly slightly higher, with a standard max operating altitude of 41,000ft, it can stay above most of the traffic flying across Europe, the North Atlantic and the USA.

Just as an aside, the BBJ2, based on the 737-800 airframe is larger and roomier than the BBJ; however, does not have the range that the smaller BBJ carries. Due to the extra size, the extra fuel that has to be boarded gives a small penalty in range; however, only about 10%, but with the added capacity, in a Business Class cabin, the carrier can carry an additional 8-12 passengers.

PrivatAir has been getting excellent reviews for their services ex EWR to DUS on the A319 and to MUC on the BBJ for LH. They operate ORD-DUS for LH and will likely expand the franchise to more cities with this dedicated Business Class "shuttle" service. Swiss has started using PrivatAir to provide service from EWR to GVA and ZRH using the BBJ and now with KLM entering the market with AMS to IAH all business class, it would seem that the all Business Class product is catching on. Business people do not mind the narrow body aircraft...but since the service is so good on board, people do not seem to mind.

I do not doubt in any way that this service will do as well as any of the other markets. Whether they are representing KLM, LH, or LX, this is PrivatAir, and most people who have flown them have been quite impressed with what they have been able to do with the service on the smaller aircraft.

Who said you couldn't fly across the Atlantic in a 737?

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
N77014
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 2:42 pm

What labor implications does this have for KL/LH?...If the franchise expands anymore will their crews request a scope clause in future contracts?
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
jwenting
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 3:40 pm

BBJs aren't just lighter. Part of the cargo hold has been converted into an extra fueltank, adding even more range.
I wish I were flying
 
LJ
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 3:50 pm

Quoting N77014 (Reply 28):
What labor implications does this have for KL/LH?...If the franchise expands anymore will their crews request a scope clause in future contracts?

The Dutch unions already they were not happy as they prefer to see growth at KLM not at a new partner. However, as long as it deosn't mean lay offs i don't see the unions doing anything about it.
 
FlySSC
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 4:26 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Actually, they are heavier. The BBJ1 is a 737-700 airframe with the wing from the 737-800 (Stronger, but heavier), high rated engines and extra fuel tanks. It is also longer ranged than the A319CJ/LR.

Sure about this ?  scratchchin 

Last October 9th 2004, an Airbus A319CJ broke a range record for this a/c type by flying nonstop from TLS (Toulouse/France) to LAS (Las Vegas/USA) which means a distance of 4914nm (5655mi or 9101km).

The a/c had 25 persons on board + 7 crew members and was also carrying 2 tons of freight.


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Antoine Ossadzow

 
texdravid
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sat May 14, 2005 9:28 pm

Quoting N77014 (Reply 26):
I think this also boosts IAH as probably the premier gateway to europe from the south-central USA.

I think IAH is already the above, even without this new BBJ AMS-IAH service.
Have you seen IAH between 1pm and 7pm? The most foreign metal in the south central USA is here. On some days, there is double KLM, and three BA's, as well as the usual AF and LH.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
jwenting
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sun May 15, 2005 2:45 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 30):
The Dutch unions already they were not happy as they prefer to see growth at KLM not at a new partner. However, as long as it deosn't mean lay offs i don't see the unions doing anything about it.

I rather think it's a shortterm contract as part of a feasibility study.
AF isn't likely to permanently contract a major operation to a Lufthansa subsidiairy. I'd say if it works we'll see AF starting a new company of the same type and moving operations to them.
I wish I were flying
 
dutchjet
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sun May 15, 2005 2:46 am

I asked this question above - does Privatair have 5 additional BBJ1s available to operate this service for KL? Are the aircraft on order? Any ideas?
 
jwenting
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sun May 15, 2005 6:37 am

Either they have them or they know where to get them on short order, else they'd not have signed the contract I think  Smile
I wish I were flying
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: KL To Start Business Class Only Flights To The USA

Sun May 15, 2005 4:30 pm

in regard to reply 33, Privatair is not a subsidiary of LH. so KLM would not be contracting out flying to a LH group member.

at LH, the unions weren't that happy about having Privatair operate such services. i think it could be for that reason that at least one of the three services on Privatair metal (i believe its the BBJ on MUC-EWR) is op`d by LH flight deck crew.

rgds
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.