MAH4546
Topic Author
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FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 3:30 am

The South Florida Sun-Sentinel and Miami Herald are now publishing these stories on a daily basis. This one, though, has some interesting news...

In a desperate attempt to relieve overcrowding, long security lines, and delays at what has become America's most congested airport, Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood airport officials are considering a plan in which they will reduce the amount of cruise ship travelers flying through the airport. Cruise ship travelers account for an estimated 10% of the airports 20,000,000 annual passengers.

The airport and airlines have contracts with the major cruise companies to carry passengers. When they come up for renewal, the airport would like to reduce the amount of passengers in those contracts, or elimate some altogether.

In addition, many cruise ship passengers aren't even going to Fort Lauderdale's port - Port Everglades - but rather to the Port of Miami. Officials would perfer that those passengers start using MIA.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...820.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines
a.
 
John
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 3:40 am

I doubt the airlines will agree with it, that's a big chunk of revenue to be lost...and besides, they do NOT let anyone thru security on peak cruise days no sooner than 2 hours prior to departure, so that has relieved the congestion somewhat. They need to get that friggin' paralell runway built and make more use of runway 13/31 in the interim!
 
AirScoot
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 3:43 am

Having grown up in West Palm Beach, just north of there, it would seem to me that the main reason there is so much traffic into Fort Lauderdale has more to do with the prices into and out of the airport rather than the cruise lines that service the area. While not exceptionally difficult it would be far more convenient for those leaving out Port of Miami to fly into MIA anyways rather than take the (more and more often) grueling drive down I-95 from Broward County.

Even today when pricing a trip to go down to see my family oftentimes a flight into Fort Lauderdale will be considerably lower than a flight into either the much larger Miami airport or the much more convenient Palm Beach International.

How much pressure would the airport be able to bring to bear on their airline customers to bring the pricing in line to force cruise passenger air bookings into either MIA for the cruise traffic out of there or into PBI for what they're picking up going out of the Port Of Palm Beach?
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 4:24 am

Just remember the old saying - Be careful what you wish for
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
PanAm747
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 4:25 am

Will FLL end up being America's next slot-controlled airport?
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DeltaMIA
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
Will FLL end up being America's next slot-controlled airport?

Depends. No if they can use another runway. Yes if they can't.

Quoting John (Reply 1):
I doubt the airlines will agree with it, that's a big chunk of revenue to be lost...

I doubt most of the airlines will care too much. They aren't talking about a large number of passengers. If it were all then there would be some concern. Besides why would DL, AA, CO and others care if they want to send more passengers to MIA or PBI to catch cruises out of Port Everglades. The cruise companies are the ones who would have to drive their busses a little farther.
I can't think of an airline off the top of my head that exclusively serves FLL and not MIA, PBI or a combo of the three and has a large cruise ship contract.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
dutchjet
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 4:33 am

Very interesting situation, indeed.

On one hand, Port Everglades is booming, with more and more, and bigger and bigger cruise ships using the Port as a home port for Caribbean cruises - a few ships are based at Port Everglades year round but most only spend the Winter Season there. Port Everglades is also looking to expand.

Just down the block (really) is FLL, which is facing capacity constraints and cannot accommodate all of the cruise pax and is therefore thinking about turning away cruise pax. Not the situation one would expect.

There is a lot of press about FLL and its delays and problems lately....these articles reflect the need for a second runway at FLL which faces opposition from nearby communities. Something has to be done.....Fort Lauderdale/Broward is growing at a rapid pace, new upmarket hotels and expensive condos are going up on the beach and downtown, and FLL must keep pace. The pressure is building for the new runway.

It is true that many budget minded travellers fly with the LCCs into FLL and then proceed to cruise ships home porting in Miami.....one of the problems, but many of those pax do not use air/sea packages offered by the cruise lines and travel agents, they simply buy a cheap cruise and then contact Southwest, or another LCC and grab a cheap fare....how do you stop that?

This will work out, no doubt, some reasonable deal will be made between the airport, the port and Broward.
 
MAH4546
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 4:47 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
one of the problems, but many of those pax do not use air/sea packages offered by the cruise lines and travel agents, they simply buy a cheap cruise and then contact Southwest, or another LCC and grab a cheap fare....how do you stop that?

Fly jetBlue or Independence Air to MIA.  Smile

Both are supposed to happen within 6-8 months. Hopefully.
a.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 5:20 am

They don't want 'em?

...hell, send them HERE!!!


We've been trying (and succeeding!) like mad in attracting more cruise passengers.


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Ironically, many of the additionals happen to be coming from a city in the southern UK that almost no one here has ever heard of (BOH). Who knew?  Silly
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FlyingTexan
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 5:30 am

Fort Lauderdale’s airport is a product of its own success, with nearly every low fare carrier known to mandkind offering cut throat competition, low fares.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Both are supposed to happen within 6-8 months. Hopefully.

You want B6 in MIA. Wouldn't that negatively effect AA's revenue into NYC?

You want DH In MIA. Wouldnt that negatively effect AA's revenue into WAS?
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
flymia
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 10):

You want B6 in MIA. Wouldn't that negatively effect AA's revenue into NYC?

You want DH In MIA. Wouldnt that negatively effect AA's revenue into WAS?

There is enought demand for MIA-NYC for B6 and AA co-exist. I sure its the same with MIA-DC. Both flights have plenty of demand.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
MAH4546
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 6:23 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 10):

You want B6 in MIA. Wouldn't that negatively effect AA's revenue into NYC?

The strong revenue on MIA-LGA and MIA-EWR, and jetBlue will most definitley do MIA-JFK, not the former. I truly doubt AA makes that much money on MIA-JFK local traffic. Just look at how many seats they offer in the market...five daily widebodies and a 757.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 10):
You want DH In MIA. Wouldnt that negatively effect AA's revenue into WAS?

Again, the strong revenue is on MIA-DCA, not MIA-IAD.

Of course, any compietition will hurt AA's revenue, but I don't think it will be anything drastic. AA already matches some FLL LCC fares out of MIA on routes to New York City, Boston, and DC.
a.
 
dutchjet
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 6:37 am

If JetBlue and I-Air do enter the MIA market as expected, there will be significant ramifications. Firstly, AA will finally have competition on some key routes in and out of MIA - while I think that the market can support additional flights, it will be an adjustment for AA at its very profitable MIA hub. I agree that the local traffic on AA's JFK-MIA or IAD-MIA routes are probably not a big money makers and fares are not outrageous, but AA will certainly have to adjust its inventory of cheaper fares on these routes to counter its new competiton.

The more interesting aspect of LCCs into MIA will be its affect on FLL - while MIA is one of those airports that everyone loves to hate, its not bad for domestic flights (international arrivals can be another story) and FLL is quickly losing its claim as South Florida's convient airport with the increasing delays and space and runway issues. Will the travelling public looking for cheaper airfares that now use FLL go back to MIA? The answer is yes - especially for those living in or travelling to Miami, Miami Beach, and South Dade county or those departing on cruises that depart from the Port of Miami that go out of the way to use FLL for the sole purpose of saving some money. Will LCCs at MIA solve some of FLL's problems? In my opinion, probably not. There will be some impact, but Broward itself is growing at a rapid pace and a shift of some domestic traffic back from FLL to MIA will only provide temporary relief.
 
airlinelover
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 6:45 am

Isn't there a way to expand the exisiting terminal or build a new one?!?! I can't understand why someone would want to DECREASE the amount of revenue coming through!!! Makes no sense..

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
dutchjet
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 14):
Isn't there a way to expand the exisiting terminal or build a new one?!?! I can't understand why someone would want to DECREASE the amount of revenue coming through!!! Makes no sense..

Chris

While terminal space is tight at FLL, the bigger problem seems to be the layout of the terminals themselves. FLL has four terminal buildings with multiple security points, and even the newest building which only opened a couple of years ago does not seem to absorb passengers that well. The bigger problem is the runway, FLL needs a second runway for larger airliners to ease arrivals and departures.
 
SegmentKing
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 8:12 am

as a former Air Canada employee @ FLL/MIA (laid off by Milton a couple years ago then offered to be rehired in the "new" Air Canada USA program ((which stripped us of Canadian benefits))), I can attest that the cruise lines LOVE dropping all the pax off between 9AM and 10AM.. our queue would be 4 hours deep with at least 500 people in line... those of you familiar with Terminal 4, our line would go all the way to the END OF THE ROADWAY by the commuter terminal, then wrap back around to the entrance nearest our counters.

I have had passengers standing in line for over 5 hours before.

this is a major problem that needs to be addressed.. the cruiselines or airport needs to develop a "day area" or somethin for cruise pax to veg in until they can check in for their flights.

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
Armada
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 9:55 am

Fort Lauderdale will eventually be building a people mover system, similiar to that of Miami's, that will connect FLL, downtown, and the port.

Unfortunately, that is at least a decade off. But what I have found interesting is that ever since FLL has been restricted by the FAA, there has been a huge increase in pax traffic here in the last two weeks. Very abnormal, and no one can really explain where all these people are coming from.
 
BOSPMV
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 9:57 am

annually, how many crusie pax fly into the south florida area, as in how many people fly to mia, fll and pbi just for cruises?
 
JFernandez
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 12:21 pm

As someone who routinely does NYC-Miami, and having a place in Miami Beach makes FLL slightly more appetizing, I've simply found the ontime performance of FLL and the nice fares I tend to get on LGA-MIA (because of the AA flight frequency) to make MIA much better than FLL. FLL can be a flipping zoo.
 
F9Fan
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 1:01 pm

I hate to tell FLL this, but cruise passengers are increasingly booking their own airfare than letting the cruise line make the arrangements. This is because the costs are much lower (by $200 per passenger) when the passenger does it, and the routing is often much better.
 
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jetpixx
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 1:18 pm

I am so sick of the NIMBYs near FLL ruining this airport. They need a parallel runway and the trailer trash that lives to the south is hindering that. If the airport is slotted or forced to decrease, an increase in fares are sure to follow at some point - affecting me. I fly through FLL at least seven to 10 times a year and I prefer it for the reasons stated above - the fares are way better than MIA and PBI.

These people live near an airport - what do you expect? It is noisy - deal with it. If it weren't for the airport bringing in millions of dollars, your life would be worse than it already is.

I apologize for getting so worked up, but I am sick of this whole debate already. Build the second runway - or even extend the existing one and tunnel US1 under it for larger aircraft. Something, anything to keep this airport flourishing.
 
sllevin
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 1:46 pm

Quoting Jetpixx (Reply 21):
They need a parallel runway and the trailer trash that lives to the south is hindering that.

Why must every airport be a giant behmoth?

FLL handles a ton of traffic. It's not unreasonable to not agree to expand it into another MIA. And there's a lot more than 'trailer trash' there.

Steve
 
ACAfan
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 1:49 pm

As a former resident of Dania Beach, I will don my flamesuit and side with the NIMBYs.

We of course prefer the parallel north runway.
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 2:10 pm

This may sound radical, but what about putting I-595 underground and building the new runway on top?!. The neighbors wouldn't have a chance to complain and maybe the access roads to/from I-95/US1/Airport/port can be improved... just a thought. I know is no going to happen.
 
katanapilot
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 2:42 pm

this seems strange to me. an airport is a business like any other. you would think they would try to attract MORE cruise passengers in order to apply for more federal/state funding and expansion. what airport doesn't want more passengers?!
 
USAFHummer
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 2:52 pm

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 24):
This may sound radical, but what about putting I-595 underground and building the new runway on top?!

A little too radical I think...

Greg
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DeltaMIA
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sat May 14, 2005 3:28 pm

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 24):
This may sound radical, but what about putting I-595 underground and building the new runway on top?!.

Damn if they did that people who commute to work would have to leave their houses 2 hours earlier for 10 years given how quickly road work gets done.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
Armada
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 2:17 am

No offense, but when you choose to live near an aiport, you have to expect two things:

1. noise
2. expansion

The Nimby's in Malleluca Gardens might delay progress, but they will ultimately lose if not at the hands of the county, then the FAA.

Sllevin - an airport with two runways (three if you count the seldom used cross runway) is a behemoth?
 
newkai
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 3:36 am

Isn't there a good underused airport within 50 miles of FLL that's close to a port that could be expanded to serve as the cruise airport?
 
MAH4546
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting Newkai (Reply 29):
Isn't there a good underused airport within 50 miles of FLL that's close to a port that could be expanded to serve as the cruise airport?

MIA, which is only 18 miles south and very close to the Port of Miami. Handles about 30M passengers a year, will have the capacity to handle 65M when construction is done in 2008. MIA is already starting to see passenger traffic increase this year after years of sliding, and things are looking good as the situation at FLL gets worse. FLL's growth is about to slow down, though not stop.
a.
 
GARUDAROD
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 4:28 am

Newkai,

Are you talking about the old facility Eastern used to use for touch
and goes in the middle of the Everglades??

A simple solution to the congestion.
Open up the south runway to the commuter jets, move the
Gen Aviation traffic to Florida Executive Airport or Perry Airport.

Armanda,
The people mover was recently decided to be too expensive to build.
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
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jetpixx
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 22):
Why must every airport be a giant behmoth?

FLL handles a ton of traffic. It's not unreasonable to not agree to expand it into another MIA. And there's a lot more than 'trailer trash' there.

All airports do not need to be a 'behemoth', but when the demand is there and a group of people are holding up progress and affecting the good of the general population, then there is a problem.

These people knew what they were getting into living near an airport. If I do not like noise or traffic or whatever the case may be - then I simply live somewhere else. You cannot tell me that all of those residents have been there since the 70s when the airport was a shell of its current self.

Besides Sllevin, what am I even doing wasting time arguing with you? Your location says SJC - so you are not affected by this. The argument of expanding MIA instead or using it as an alternative is like my arguing you try SMF instead of SJC. I live in southern Palm Beach Co. and PBI is not always a viable alternative and MIA is over an hour away.

[Edited 2005-05-15 01:23:31]
 
Armada
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 8:25 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 24):
This may sound radical, but what about putting I-595 underground and building the new runway on top?!. The neighbors wouldn't have a chance to complain and maybe the access roads to/from I-95/US1/Airport/port can be improved... just a thought. I know is no going to happen.

The south runway will require that US1 be put underground. The park along the southern edge of the airport, along Griffin Road, will also be taken out.
 
ltbewr
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 8:43 am

I would also suggest that many people going to South Florida, especially from Miami and north and not just cruise pax prefer FLL vs. MIA. Many of here have seen many posts condemming the situation at MIA. Part of it goes back many years too, as the MIA airport was (and perhaps still) surrounded by a less 'desirable' neighborhood that was the site of several carjackings and other criminal beheavors back upon tourists back in the early 1990's.
Perhaps the cruises need to stagger out their the time their pax are discharged off their ships and return flight times.
 
vivavegas
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 9:09 am

FWIW, I just booked YX - MKE-FLL for a cruise departing Miami. This is not due lower fares into FLL (but yes it was cheaper), but the lack of NS flights into MIA.

I chose to try the I95 SB trek rather that a ATL or ORD plane transfer with my 10 month old. Decisions, Decisions...

Craig
MKE
MKE / EYW / LAS - The true trifecta of aviation!
 
sllevin
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 9:48 am

Quoting Jetpixx (Reply 32):
Besides Sllevin, what am I even doing wasting time arguing with you? Your location says SJC - so you are not affected by this.

Let me get this straight -- I'm not worthy to comment because it's in not in my current backyard, but you also wish to discount the opinions of those in whose backyard the airport is?

In other words, you just want your way, regardless of the cost to anyone else?

BTW, I lived on Ocean in Hollywood for a year, so I'm not entirely unfamiliar with the situation. And I still hold that local residents are entitled to not surrender all their rights because they live near an airport.

Steve
 
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jetpixx
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 36):
And I still hold that local residents are entitled to not surrender all their rights because they live near an airport.

Local residents who live near the airport should expect a burgeoning airport to expand and not stand in the way for the good of the community.

The airport pumps millions, if not billions, into the local economy. What do those trailers and small homes near the airport provide the area?

And as far as I getting my way - it is the way of the majority. The travelling public want lower fares and variety and tourism drives the economy, which makes my life better. Long security lines, delayed flights, etc. from outdated terminals or one runway limit the effectiveness and therefore leave a bad taste in travellers mouths, who re-think using the facility and travelling to South Florida again, as that is the first thing they see when they arrive.
 
flymia
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 2:46 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 34):
neighborhood that was the site of several carjackings and other criminal behaviors back upon tourists back in the early 1990's.

Yes the carjackings did occur but that was really because criminals could easily spot tourist in rental cars because the car would say what car rental company it was from and everything. Now rental cars dont show any identification of it being a rental car.
I really dont know the areas that the rental car companies are in since I never had to rent a car in MIA obviously. I just get on the highway.
But MIA is building a new huge transportation hub with rental car facilities near the airport. I think it will be connected to MIA by train?
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 3:12 pm

Let me get this straight -- I'm not worthy to comment because it's in not in my current backyard, but you also wish to discount the opinions of those in whose backyard the airport is?

Having pertinent information and thoughts on the topic of a thread is, or at least should be, the main qualification for commenting on our board. It's as fair for Steve, who doesn't currently live by FLL, to comment, as for anyone else.

That said, it seems to me that people who live near airports should have far less power to block expansion decisions than they do in many US localities today. FLL is a huge economic engine for South Florida, and thousands of individuals and families depend upon FLL and related employers for their livelihood.

Something is especially wrong when people who moved near an airport long after it was built (which I understand to be the case with much of Dania Beach, for instance) can stymie improvments that affect thousands of jobs and the local economy. If they don't like aircraft noise, they should indeed move. And the runway should be improved as needed.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
DB777
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RE: FLL To Cruise Ship Passengers: Go Elsewhere.

Sun May 15, 2005 3:22 pm

Quoting Armada (Reply 33):
The south runway will require that US1 be put underground. The park along the southern edge of the airport, along Griffin Road, will also be taken out.

Where did you get this information? Can you provide some written reference?

The plan for numerous years has been to build the runway over US1, not put US1 underground. A retired high ranking local FAA tower chief working for a prominent aviation consulting firm came up with the idea of an angled runway built over US1 during George Spofford's tenure as Broward's Aviation Director in the mid 90's and I've never read where this idea has been shelved.

In fact, the Narrative - Assessment of Airfield Development Alternatives Final Report Prepared by Leigh Fisher Associates (LFA) November, 2003 (in PDF format at http://www.broward.org/airport/finalreport/fllreport.pdf) specifically states on page 24 that the runway project will bridge Perimeter Road, the FEC railroad tracks and US1 for case study SR-1, and the same comments are mentioned for case studies SR-2, SR-3 and SR-4 on pages concerning those studies.

In regards to your assertion that the public park has to be removed, case studies SR-1, SR-2, SR-3 and SR-4 have diagrams of the south runway project on pages 26, 31, 35 and 39 and none of them show the runway safety area infringing into the existing park which serves as a buffer between the airport and neighborhoods to the south. Why would the park have to be removed?

[Edited 2005-05-15 08:27:41]
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