soundtrack
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Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sat May 14, 2005 9:31 pm

Okay folks...

I've been told by FA's my camera (slr) and video cameras, laptops disrupt a plane's operation during takeoff and landing.

Can someone point to me if this is REALLY true!

I'm sure others have had the same experience.

Please enlighten me - thanks!
 
air2gxs
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sat May 14, 2005 9:37 pm

No, they do not disrupt the takeoff and landing, they disrupt the flight and cabin's crew ability to have your full attention during the most critical phases of flight.
 
mhodgson
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sat May 14, 2005 10:00 pm

I think the fact that if an accident was to occur, the force of the SLR hurling through the cabin could do some serious damage. Doesn't stop most poeple though!
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
 
pilotpip
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

Lower altitudes are usually more turbulent and the aircraft will be maneuvering more. These two items mean it's harder to hold onto something, and it could come out of somebody's hand and hurt another passenger.

You also need to know what to do when you have to get out of the aircraft fast.
DMI
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sat May 14, 2005 10:19 pm

Some info here from an old article:
http://xar.us/stuff/papers/new_threat_of_the_airways.html

I personally still use my Ipod/mp3 player during takeoff/landing (to give it some cinematic soundtrack to the event  Smile ).... but i will really hate the day when cell phones are allowed to be used on board. It will be horrible. I think the noise cancelling heaphones sales will go up after that.

http://wired-vig.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,41177,00.html

..i think that the ban is a "just in case" measure because they have not done extensive study on the matter to determine if "all" electronic devices cause interference or not.

I do think the cell phones are more of a risk than a laptop/mp3 player. Do you think that everybody remembers to shut their cellphones after boarding? i know of some people that just forget.
During a recent flight on Malev to Budapest, the flight attendant had a device that beeps when a cell phone signal is received. She was walking up and down the aisle and was politely asking paxs to shut the cell phones when her thing was beeping. I thought that was neat and should be use by other airlines if the cell phone signals are a real threat. Then again, why do the insist in adding features in the plane to allow the use of cell phones inflight? i think that will a cause of a bigger controversy.
 
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JBo
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sat May 14, 2005 11:29 pm

I think this is one for the Mythbusters to tackle  Wink

Then we'd know once and for all if electronic devices can mess with a plane, and in the end, something would most likely get blown up. lol.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
EGGD
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sat May 14, 2005 11:35 pm

The signals for mobile phones can be heard through the aircrafts communication systems which can be an annoyance. I don't know too much about what other electronic items do though, i'd imagine there might be some inteference but nothing life threatening.
 
legacy135
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sat May 14, 2005 11:35 pm

Look, the thing is that we do not really know if it does interfere and if yes, what does interfere in which aircraft. I personally think that most of the times nothing will happen. On the other hand I was onboard a brand new King Air 350, 10 years ago, when we lost all EFIS displays for three times. They always came back and maintenance never found out why those failures occurred. Just the last time, we lost the displays, we could realize, how the owner completed a call at his cellphone. We told him then about and it never occurred again, but he never again used this phone on board.
On the other hand, I had hundreds of passengers on board the last years, calling from cells during the aircraft was on ground and this in different and much more sophisticated types then the 350 and there was never the slightest problem. So I think, best is to go the safe way and this is how it is done actually be the majority of operators. This may limit you in your personal freedom but there is no bad intention behind and just a safety measure.
 
norcal
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sat May 14, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 4):
I personally still use my Ipod/mp3 player during takeoff/landing (to give it some cinematic soundtrack to the event ).... but i will really hate the day when cell phones are allowed to be used on board. It will be horrible. I think the noise cancelling heaphones sales will go up after that.

I left my cell phone on once when to see if it would even get service. They don't at cruising altitudes. I doubt you can get reliable service above 10,000 feet. I did a cross country the other day (7.7 hours!!!) and needless to say I got a little bored sitting there after I had the plane all trimmed out. So I tried to make a phone call on my first leg (flew at 10,500). (My headphones have noise canceling and a jack you can plug a cell phone into to make a call) I wasn't able to pick up any kind of signal at all. My second leg (9,500) I tried calling, but the signal came in and out. I would have three bars, then no bars. Very unreliable.

I think better receiver towers would need to be developed before you can talk on your phone at 35,000 ft. I wouldn't put it beyond the phone companies to develop this and charge you a ridiculous amount of minutes/money for it though. I agree with you, I hope it never happens.
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 8):
I think better receiver towers would need to be developed before you can talk on your phone at 35,000 ft. I wouldn't put it beyond the phone companies to develop this and charge you a ridiculous amount of minutes/money for it though. I agree with you, I hope it never happens.

I was referring to this:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/2004-07-16-jet-phones_x.htm
 
mhodgson
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 2:10 am

I was on a STN-BLK flight a while ago, and we were problably at round cruising altitude (I suspect about 18000'). I heard a phone recieve a text message, so it is possible.

But if I EVER hear Crazy Frog on a plane, I will search every single bin and smash the offending phone :-x
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aeroweanie
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Soundtrack (Thread starter):
Can someone point to me if this is REALLY true!

There have been several articles in Aviation Week & Space Technology relating how airliner crews had problems with their onboard systems (nav, etc.). They had a FA walk through the cabin and ask people to turn off their electronic devices. Sure enough, the problems went away. In at least one case, by the process of elimination, they identified the offending device (a CD player, if I remember right).

Electro-Magnetic Interference (EMI) testing is required in the certification testing of all new airliners, but its mainly for High Energy Radiated Fields (HERF). For example, during the HERF EMI test on the MD11, the APU inlet door opened uncommanded. Commercial electronic devices emit much weaker fields, but if they are in the wrong place, they can still mess with critical onboard systems.

Don't risk my life by having the arrogance to think that your device won't interfere with the onboard systems.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 11):

Don't risk my life by having the arrogance to think that your device won't interfere with the onboard systems.

I agree. While there is probably minimal risk, they ask you not to do it and it's against regulations. Isn't that enough reason to leave your device off? Take the train if you don't like it.


There is evidence that electronic devices affect aircraft systems, but nothing has been recorded that would be really dangerous. Another problem is that if the device is malfunctioning, it could produce (for example) a radio signal much more powerful than it was designed to do. That could also affect systems.

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 10):
But if I EVER hear Crazy Frog on a plane, I will search every single bin and smash the offending phone :-x

No kidding. LOL
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
exusair
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 3:39 am

Electricity has the potential to jump through cords. Photographers who work with strobes will tell you that when working with two strobes and they want one to go on but not the other, that if the wires are crossed, the wrong strobe will missfire.

There is anecdotal evidence of efis screens going blank on approach with electronics onboard being suspected as the cause. Some research has been done and a handheld nintendo game was found to cause electricity to "jump" when used in certain spots aboard the aircraft.

There is not enough research, but it is safer to err on the side of caution and be sure that everything is turned off.
 
newkai
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 3:46 am

There's also the theory that airlines don't want you using your phone on board so that you'll use their's and pay twenty times as much!

But you're not going to get any reception at any decent altitude anyway.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 4:19 am

EGGD is correct. Although the phone may not be heard on the ground, once you become airborne, you can hear it as it hunts for, or talks to, multiple towers. It sounds like morse code. If you want to experiment, you can hear your phone if you put itl next to a powered speaker, like a PC speaker, or phone with a speaker phone. My phone does this, but I can't gaurantee that every phone will.
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wukka
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting Exusair (Reply 13):
There is anecdotal evidence of efis screens going blank on approach with electronics onboard being suspected as the cause. Some research has been done and a handheld nintendo game was found to cause electricity to "jump" when used in certain spots aboard the aircraft.

"Anecdotal" and "research" don't belong in the same sentence together. Do you have a link and / or hardcopy for any of this, please? RF emissions combined with poorly shielded electrical conduits causing an arc? This goes against any DC/AC circuit analysis that I've studied while working on my EE. I'd love to see where you heard this from.

Cheers!
We can agree to disagree.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting Wukka (Reply 16):
Quoting Exusair (Reply 13):
There is anecdotal evidence of efis screens going blank on approach with electronics onboard being suspected as the cause. Some research has been done and a handheld nintendo game was found to cause electricity to "jump" when used in certain spots aboard the aircraft.

"Anecdotal" and "research" don't belong in the same sentence together. Do you have a link and / or hardcopy for any of this, please? RF emissions combined with poorly shielded electrical conduits causing an arc? This goes against any DC/AC circuit analysis that I've studied while working on my EE. I'd love to see where you heard this from.

Will probably not answer your question but nevertheless raises the issue from the purely anecdotal realm somewhat.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_10/interfere.html
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
AMSSpotter
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 4:42 am

When I was in the army (this was in the early 90's) and we turned on one of our pc's (286's) in the office, there was a real bad interference with the radio signal (FM music) during the boot-up process. The radio literally sounded like a slot-machine for a few moments.

My first pc (486) always interefered with one of the TV-stations (lower frequencies).

Even nowadays, radio's sometimes give away incoming mobile phone calls, so I guess the aviation industry does have a valid point when it wants electronic devices to be shut off during take-off and landing.

Personally, I don't think a photo-camera or a camcorder will do much harm but like more people here pointed out: it's always better to be safe than sorry!

[Edited 2005-05-14 21:43:43]
 
Biggles
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 6:13 am

With the large number of potentially dangerous electronic devices being brought on and used in an aircraft , you would have thought some authority would have carried out some specific tests by now..
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 6:54 am

Quoting AMSSpotter (Reply 18):
Personally, I don't think a photo-camera or a camcorder will do much harm but like more people here pointed out: it's always better to be safe than sorry!

Heavier items like camcorders and laptops should be kept off and stowed for another reason. They can turn into rather nasty missiles during emergencies.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
AMSSpotter
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 6:59 am

You're absolutely right about camcorders and laptops being dangerous missiles during an emergency! What I meant was that photo equipment probably won't be the actual cause of the plane going down (when it comes to interfering with the aircraft's systems).
 
wukka
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 7:28 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
Will probably not answer your question but nevertheless raises the issue from the purely anecdotal realm somewhat.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer....html

Thanks for the link, Starlion... I believe that I've read either that particular article or a similar one in the past, however, I still have issue with this particular statement, "As a result of these and other investigations, Boeing has not been able to find a definite correlation between PEDs and the associated reported airplane anomalies."

No definitive correlation from the manufacturer almost reeks of media sensationalism, even though Boeing hosts this article on their site.

Quoting Biggles (Reply 19):
With the large number of potentially dangerous electronic devices being brought on and used in an aircraft , you would have thought some authority would have carried out some specific tests by now..

Thank you! I tip my hat to you, sir! As stated by a member above, this looks like a job for Mythbusters.
We can agree to disagree.
 
concentriq
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 7:49 am

While most devices which are designated for use in a residential environment (Class B) comply with Part 15 of FCC Regs (I think). that "device shall not create interference, and must accept interference, bla bla bla".

 goodvibes  <-- Interference.

So, for most devices manufactured in US, especially in recent times, are safe to use, as they probably wont cause any interference. however, what if device was manufactured in foreign country, or some homebuilt or antiquated device is brought on, it may cause such interference. So i think the restriction of use of "portable electronic devices" is a blanket rule that covers all. as far as 10K ft is a mark where you can start using them, i dont know.

 twocents  from me
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satx
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting Concentriq (Reply 23):
So, for most devices manufactured in US, especially in recent times, are safe to use, as they probably wont cause any interference.

Are you simply referring to the fact that most electronic devices are no longer manufactured in the US in 'recent times'?
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
concentriq
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
Are you simply referring to the fact that most electronic devices are no longer manufactured in the US

haha. good one. this reminds me of some comedian who commented on a capture of a sophisticated US surveliance plane by the chinese few years back. It was escorted to some chinese military installation, for violating china air space, and US was resisting chinese officials entering the aircraft, for fear that they will be able to see all the top secret electronics that are in it. so the comedian says, chinese enter, and to their suprise find that most electronics inside the spy plane are ...made in china  Smile

i know you were probably sarcastic, but just in case: even though devices are manufactured elsewhere, if they are for US market, they have to comply with US regs.
Mobilis In Mobili
 
UPS Pilot
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 8:55 am

For those naysayers, I have an experiment for you. Set your cell phone near a car speaker with the radio on but at low volume. Have somebody call your cell phone at this time. You will hear electronic pulses through your speaker before the phone even rings.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 8:59 am

Most devices will not interfere with aircraft operation but a portable electronic device could be created which created interference on the frequencies used for communications and navigation. Since every device cannot be inspected by the flight crew to ensure FCC Regs, Industry Canada Regs, etc it is better that the crew ensure all devices are off during landing when navigation signal based approaches may be in use.
 
norcal
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 9:10 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 9):
I was referring to this:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireles...x.htm

definitely time to find those noise canceling head phones then
 
MrChips
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 11:12 am

You bet your bottom dollar that PEDs interfere with avionics.

One fine day, I was doing a walk-around on a 172, and when I had the electrics powered up, my cell rang, and when I answered it, the ADF needle pointed almost 90 degrees to the direction it was originally pointed. Curious, I asked the person to call me back in 10 minutes, and when I ended the call, the needle pointed right back where it was originally.

And in case you are wondering, the avionics in a 172 are made to the same standards as those of an airliner.
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TedTAce
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 11:23 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 4):
but i will really hate the day when cell phones are allowed to be used on board.

I will ask to be seated in the 'no calling' section.

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 4):
I think the noise cancelling heaphones sales will go up after that.

Like hotcakes!!

Quoting JBo (Reply 5):
think this is one for the Mythbusters to tackle

 checkmark 

Quoting EGGD (Reply 6):
The signals for mobile phones can be heard through the aircrafts communication systems which can be an annoyance.



Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 7):
We told him then about and it never occurred again, but he never again used this phone on board.

I think the key here is certain types of devices.. I know up until a couple of years ago (maybe even today) Nextel phones were NOTORIOUS!! I had one myself and I would have it literally more then 6 feet away from my computer and it woud cause the monitor and sound to do a 'tick, tick, tick' routine that ensured I knew a call was comming before the ringer did it's thing.

I never had any such problem with a Samsung phone on sprint even holding the phone right next to the monitor. I think another problem is when laptops were first comming out they didn't give a DAMN about RFI, and they did cause problems on A/C. Now you have "FAA certified" (whatever that means) laptops that control their RF signature very well.

I think the problem is going to be that as long as there are irresponsible manufacturers of electronics RF will always present some type of issue. Expecting flight crews to know the diference is ludicrous.

I only use electronics during t/o and landing under VFR conditions. If it's IFR I'm on board with

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 11):
Don't risk my life by having the arrogance to think that your device won't interfere with the onboard systems.
This space intentionally left blank
 
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alberchico
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 11:24 am

Iv'e used cameras during takeoff,cruise . and landing, nothing ever happend.....
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 31):
Iv'e used cameras during takeoff,cruise . and landing, nothing ever happend.....

This doesn't mean that:
- Nothing will ever happen when you do it.
- Nothing will ever happen when anyone does it.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
TG992
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 12:07 pm

Alberchico - in the event of a sudden event such as aborted takeoff, runway overrun, etc, your 1kg camera will hurtle through the air with the equivalent force of a 20kg object. If it hits someone in the head, it WILL kill them, or, at the very least, render them unable to evacuate the aircraft if they have to. You will have their blood on your hands through your refusal to abide by the regulations of the airline.

Is it worth it to you?
-
 
FlyHoss
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 12:18 pm

Speaking from personal experience, the answer is yes, some electronic devices do cause interference. I can recall three occasions of (otherwise) unexplainable interference; I asked the FAs to check for someone using a cell phone and in each case, someone was doing just that.
If I you have the time, read all the reports at:

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report_sets/ped.pdf

Some of the reports are about behavior (passengers refusing to turn electronic devices off) though.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
N243NW
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 12:44 pm

Quoting UPS Pilot (Reply 26):
For those naysayers, I have an experiment for you. Set your cell phone near a car speaker with the radio on but at low volume. Have somebody call your cell phone at this time. You will hear electronic pulses through your speaker before the phone even rings.

Definitely. My car has a mysterious hole to the right of the radio (came factory standard...it's a '98 Civic, anyone know what it is?) that I always put my cell phone in when I'm on the road. I can immediately tell if I have an incoming call by the pulsating static that is emitted by my speakers, even before the phone actually rings. It's pretty neat and proves that interference does exist in this form. Is it enough to bring down a commercial airplane? I don't have a definitive answer to that (and neither does the FAA), but I don't want to find out anytime soon.

-N243NW bigthumbsup 
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 12:48 pm

This will explain everything you need to know:

FAR 91.21 Portable Electronic Devices

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following US registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.

(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.

In short, its up to the company or PIC to figure out what to allow.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
jamtide
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 2:10 pm

I have read these threads with great interest. I am going on my honeymoon next week to the Mayan Riviera and like most here, look forward to the journey itself. Particularly, I look forward to capturing some neat video footage on the flights to and from Cancun. Is it really a problem? I've done stills from the air during these critical phases of flight. All this talk made me think of this website and the countless of pax who have done it.

http://www.flightlevel350.com/

Jamie
 
UA772IAD
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 4:07 pm

I don't think it can, despite the purser's requests to turn them off. However, I have noticed on United flights (Haven't heard it elsewhere yet) that they are now including Blackberry(s) in their announcements, since those have a wireless signal transmisson.... don't know if you'll actually get service in the air though!
 
baw716
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 4:44 pm

To answer directly. One electronic device, nah, probably not. However, I would be willing to be a rather large sum of money that on a regular flight I would find more than 1 and probably more than 10 and quite likely more than 100 and possibly more than 200 and maybe 300 and on the outside almost all the passengers have some form of electronic device. If they were ALL on at the same time, collectively, that would be enough of an electronic signal to interfere with VHF transmissions to/from the aircraft, because FM radios operate on the VHF band (lower end). Cell phones, CD players, etc all produce a radio type signal and its the radio signals that cause the interference with the navigational aids.

That is why most of them are banned. Mostly radios and cell phones; however, I am seeing more and more CD players being banned, because they also emit a radio signal and that radio signal operates at a certain band that interferes with something on the aircraft. What I am not certain (I want to dig further here) because most business people carry PCs with CD drives, people carry CD players, etc. iPods are not permitted, etc etc.

It is not just because the carriers want to collect an additional $5 for the headphones to use their service. There are problems with the nav aids which are mostly radio based and until they can put fail safes in them that can work even through CD and Cell phone transmission, then we are stuck with what we have. I don't like it either, but we have to live with it.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
AlanUK
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RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 7:32 pm

Quoting NorCal (Reply 8):
I left my cell phone on once when to see if it would even get service.



Quoting NorCal (Reply 8):
I got a little bored sitting there after I had the plane all trimmed out. So I tried to make a phone call

It is nice of you to admit you broke the law on two occasions on your flight. Just a "gentle" reminder that is is against the law to use mobile/cell phones onboard a civil aircraft whilst engines are running...

Safe flying.
 
nucsh
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:29 am

RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 8:43 pm

Here's something you can do to test it...

Go out to your car, turn on your cell phone and your car's radio. Stick the cell phone near the radio. You should hear a good bit of interferance/buzzing. Now, walk away from your car with both on, say about 20-40ft away. Hear anything? Probably not.

One cell phone won't do it, but when you get a plane full of 100-600 of them, you can only imagine the amount of cell-waves (as I'll call them for now) are going to be traveling through that cabin. Not to mention how annoying it will be to have to listen to everyone's conversation in flight.

I think the major problem here though is the speed at what you're flying at. At high speeds, your cell phone passes over one cell tower every two minutes or so. And different carriers own certain cell towers. Not only would it be tough for the carrier to figure out whether your roming or not, it's tough for the phone to figure out which service it's trying to use. This means that you might not get billed for airtime you use. Not to mention that you'd probably run out of service every 5 seconds or so. And all of this also depends on altitude...

In reality, it's both a safety issue and a corporate issue. The cell providers want you to pay for everything, and the airlines want your attention. Why wouldn't you want to give them your attention anyway? You payed $250-500 to fly with them, they probably have something to say to keep you safe. Wink
If landing is about "kissing" the ground, you just about raped it.
 
EK156
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 8:01 pm

RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 8:47 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 5):

I think you watch too much of Discovery Channel JBo... what the hec.. I watch is 24/7 too..... hehehehehe
 
Planesmart
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 9:04 pm

Back up your Palm on your PC. Place your cell phone close to Palm. Call cellphone. Check Palm memory.
 
ThePinnacleKid
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:47 am

RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 10:25 pm

personal experience.. me and two other pilots went flying and wanted to test out the cell phone thing... made a few calls.. nothing happened... but one of the attempts... it made a VERY loud high pitch interference noise across all of our headsets... it was enough that it really hurt our ears for a short while... so I do know it is Possible that they can dissrupt critical things... at the same time, i also know it doesn't do it every time either... just depends on the circumstances... sorry don't know anything more technical on it. Just a lil' homegrown experiment at 11k feet while cruisin' one day
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
backfire
Posts: 3467
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:01 am

RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 11:03 pm

If you want to judge the evidence for yourself, try the NASA aviation safety reporting system database, which has a section dedicated to collecting reports of passenger electronic device interference. While the jury is still out on the effects of electronic devices, some of the reports are enough to make you think:

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report_sets/ped.pdf


Some of the more convincing submissions:

Report 609264 - a 737 aborting an ILS approach because of unexplained readings
Report 600964 - an MD-88 experiencing a serious heading error
Report 597486 - a DC-9's TCAS prompts a sudden climb despite no traffic conflict
Report 555344 - a 767 with serious electronic failure, causing pilots to consider emergency landing
 
Finkenwerder
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:54 am

RE: Cmon! Do 'Electronic Items' Disrupt Flight!?

Sun May 15, 2005 11:25 pm

The problem stems from something called screening. This is a potentially complex subject if you know nothing about induced RF or EMF. In brief....

All electrical devices emit Radio Frequencies (RF), in fact Anything carrying an Electrical charge will emit RF. Similarly anything capable of conducting electricity will also conduct RF or more commonly an induced voltage caused by another RF source.

An example

If my cell phone is on it sends peridioc signals to the network to let the network know it's on. If my phone is in my hand at 30,000ft and I happen to be sitting beside a Fly By Wire (FBW) cable loom, and trust me you do on Airbus's. Then it is not outside the bounds of possibility that my cell phone will induce a small voltage into the cables. This in turn could quite possibly be conducted to any one of 6 FBW computers. Which in turn could interpret the signal as a fault, a bank command, or even just ignore it.

Most Aircraft cables are screened to one degree or another, which means that any stray induced voltages or signals, are simply routed away from the core of the cable by the sheath to Earth (Ground) and never make it to any components. And yes FBW cables are very well screened.

However, after installing many many screened cables for FBW and Avionics databus's , I would never ever use my phone on board. I would suggest that anyone seeing anyone else using a phone in flight, should stop them imme

[Edited 2005-05-15 16:32:05]