dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Sun May 15, 2005 8:48 pm

I guess the New York Times is spending its time here on ANet

If an Airline Fails, Who Would Care?

Published: May 15, 2005
In giving United Airlines permission to default on its employee pension plans last week, Chief Judge Eugene R. Wedoff of United States Bankruptcy Court said the action was the "least bad choice" to keep the company in business.



Would United actually fail it were required to meet its pension obligations? The airline's unions say no, and plan to appeal the ruling. United counters that it will never recover if it has to pay $9 billion in pension debts, and that it might very well collapse.

But who would miss United if it just went under?

Its 61,000 employees would be devastated, of course, and they've already seen their wages cut twice, their pension plans disappear and their post-retirement health-care coverage vanish since the airline filed for Chapter 11 protection in December 2002.

But the truth is that for United's passengers - there were six million last year - and competing airlines, it might not matter all that much if the carrier disappeared.

Other carriers would be likely to swoop in and offer service on many of United's most lucrative routes, like many out of Chicago, where the company is in a dogfight for passengers with American Airlines.

And Denver is a gateway to many West Coast routes.

In addition, 80 percent of the airports United serves are also covered by low-fare airlines like Southwest, JetBlue or AirTran.

Because other airlines prize so many of United's routes, its collapse would not even allow ticket prices to rise much - bad news for other struggling airlines that need higher prices to help them recover costs.

In any case, a federal appeals court judge will now decide whether Judge Wedoff's "least bad choice" for United is just that - or if there is a better one.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/weekinreview/15basics.html?
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
commavia
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Sun May 15, 2005 8:53 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
But the truth is that for United's passengers - there were six million last year - and competing airlines, it might not matter all that much if the carrier disappeared.

Did Jayson Blair write this article? It's obvious the NYT is still having some fact-checking problems. United carried 61.51 million passengers in 2004, about ten times the "six million" stated!
 
Planesmart
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Sun May 15, 2005 9:35 pm

One airline disappearing from the market in an uncontrolled manner will not turn the industry around.

In contrast, a managed rationalisation / re-structure means all those expected to benefit will contribute to the costs, and hopefully, the people management can be better handled.
 
luv2fly
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Sun May 15, 2005 10:25 pm

People use to say the same that EA, PA and TW could never disappear, well where are they now?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
qxq400
Posts: 250
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Sun May 15, 2005 10:42 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3):
People use to say the same that EA, PA and TW could never disappear, well where are they now?

I use to say the same thing about UA. I am not so sure now,I think there chances of surviving are 25%-75% for survival. UA has huge issues,and no airline has been able to survive this long in bankrupcy.N7 tried and in the end the creditors just got tired of the whole process and pulled the plug. I think UA is close to that point.
Welcome baby Madison Renee
 
luv2fly
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Sun May 15, 2005 10:46 pm

Quoting Qxq400 (Reply 4):
I use to say the same thing about UA. I am not so sure now,I think there chances of surviving are 25%-75% for survival. UA has huge issues,and no airline has been able to survive this long in bankrupcy.N7 tried and in the end the creditors just got tired of the whole process and pulled the plug. I think UA is close to that point.

I have to agree they keep asking for extensions with out any sign of them getting a plan of action to emerge, full of excuses is what I keep reading. If it was not for the cost of fuel, if it was not for the pensions, if it was not for what we pay our employees, and on and on and on.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Bicoastal
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Sun May 15, 2005 11:02 pm

Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times. The same question could be asked of the New York Times. If it fails, would anyone care? Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times. The same question could be asked of the New York Times. If it fails, would anyone care? Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?

LMAO!!!!!  Big grin

Of course the NYT would never print an editorial questioning their existence, since it doesn't fall under the heading of "all the news fit to print!" !!
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
texdravid
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times. The same question could be asked of the New York Times. If it fails, would anyone care? Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?

Couldn't have said it better myself! Americans would definitely miss UA more!
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
jacobin777
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 1:05 am

Living in The Bay Area and commuting to ORD every few weeks, I would CERTAINLY miss UA....that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if AA would try to expand in SFO....95% of my flights from SFO are on AA, and their terminal is basically nothing compared to say UA.....

their majour routes from SFO are ORD/JFK/DFW/HNL/LAX/SAN....

to top it all off...AA has considerably cut their services from SJC also.......  mad 
"Up the Irons!"
 
CORULEZ05
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 1:11 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
In addition, 80 percent of the airports United serves are also covered by low-fare airlines like Southwest, JetBlue or AirTran.

...part of the reason why they are in this situation to begin with.

I would definetly miss United. I have flown with them a few times and they are a great airline. For some reason I feel like if United goes under, it is giving those 9/11 terrorist and others credit because in part, they are responsible for the situation airlines are in right now. Truly sad. Whatever happens, I wish all United employees the best......
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
PassBureauMgr
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 1:39 am

Is The New York Times calling the kettle Black? What a pathetic company to be making statements & mis-statements like they do. Furthermore in the field of journalism, they have one of the worst records of treating employees "exceptionally, or even paying their bills. Small businesses all over New York who carried them for goods & services on Net 30 were told 4 years ago take Net 90, and get over it.
 
scotron11
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting PassBureauMgr (Reply 11):

Small businesses all over New York who carried them for goods & services on Net 30 were told 4 years ago take Net 90, and get over it.

At least they pay their bills. You folks may not like it, but what they are saying about UAL is true. So get over it!
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:04 am

I love how many of you guys are bashing the most famous newspaper in the history of newspapers because they have moderate views and are saying what many people feel.

Oh I suppose that many of our online chatters like the garbage spewed from Fox News, but all that aside, I'll take a very Republican right-wing view for this thread.

United is the biggest welfare case that ever existed in the history of aviation. Actually, the second biggest after US Airways. Many people, including myself, are sick of paying for them.

Furthermore, what they did to their employees this week is criminal. I don't care how much of a UAL lover anyone is . . . to work for a company for 30 years and see a pension wiped out is a disgusting disgrace to the decency of humanity.

If there is justice in this world, they are in for it.
 
RAMPRAT980
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:06 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
United carried 61.51 million passengers in 2004,

With that amount of PAX's and at $300 a ticket average(maybe I'm too high or low with that estimate) then UAL grossed over 18 Billion dollars. You can't blame what they're going through on LCC's or high fuel. Either they're cooking the books or management is running the company into the ground. Now I think that since they aren't a publicly traded company the SEC has no jurisdiction. However since the pension plan was picked up by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. If they are subsidized by the U.S. government then its my opinion that they should step in and monitor their funds. No if's, and's or but's about it. Something smells fishy to me !!!
 stirthepot 
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
commavia
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 14):
With that amount of PAX's and at $300 a ticket average(maybe I'm too high or low with that estimate) then UAL grossed over 18 Billion dollars.

You are over. United's 2004 revenue total revenue was $16.4 billion, and they carried 61,508,000 passengers last year, for a rought average fare per ticket of approximately $266. That $34 makes a big difference -- of $2.06 billion dollars. In fact, if UA had sold each ticket last year for an average of $300, they would have made a nearly $1 billion profit.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 14):
You can't blame what they're going through on LCC's or high fuel.

Not totally, but both LCCs and high fuel are a huge part of their problems. Their bloated and complex operating structure and high fixed operating costs are their biggest problem, but LCCs and fuel play a sizeable role too in their current troubles.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 14):
Either they're cooking the books or management is running the company into the ground.

Or they were doing poorly pre-9/11, and then 9/11 exaccerbated their problems, and now they are forced to operate in the most competitive and challenging airline environment since the industry's inception eighty years ago.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 14):
Now I think that since they aren't a publicly traded company the SEC has no jurisdiction.

Their shares are still traded, even though they are essentially wallpaper, and the SEC still has oversight. Check sec.gov to view UAL's latest SEC filings.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 14):
However since the pension plan was picked up by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. If they are subsidized by the U.S. government then its my opinion that they should step in and monitor their funds. No if's, and's or but's about it.

It is not the government's place to "monitor" any company's funds, at least not in America. This is why UAL must disclose all of their finances and account for every dime earned and spent, so that any ordinary investor can hold UAL accountable with their wallets. The government has no place running companies.
 
Kahala777
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
their majour routes from SFO are ORD/JFK/DFW/HNL/LAX/SAN....

Dallas

SFO-DFW: AA, UA
OAK-DFW: AA
SJC-DFW: AA

Honolulu

SFO-HNL: NW, AA, UA, DL, TZ, HA
OAK-HNL: AQ
SJC-HNL: AA

Los Angeles

SFO-LAX: AA, UA, AS
SFO-SNA: AA, UA
SFO-ONT: UA
OAK-BUR: WN
OAK-LAX: UA, WN
OAK-LGB: B6
OAK-ONT: WN
OAK-SNA: WN
SJC-LAX: WN, UA, AA
SJC-ONT: WN
SJC-SNA: WN, AA
SJC-BUR: WN

New York/Newark

SFO-JFK: AA, DL, UA, HP
SFO-EWR: CO, UA
OAK-JFK: B6
SJC-JFK: AA, B6
SJC-EWR: CO

Chicago

SFO-ORD: AA, UA
SFO-MDW: TZ
OAK-ORD: AA, UA
OAK-MDW: WN
SJC-ORD: AA, UA
SJC-MDW: WN

San Diego

SFO-SAN: UA
OAK-SAN: WN
SJC-SAN: WN

There are plenty of choices and United Airlines, would not be missed in the Bay Area market. United Airlines, offers nothing that any other airline does not offer from San Francisco. All of the International flying from San Francisco is duplicated by other airlines with the exception of Sydney, Nagoya, and Osaka. All of which are easily accessed via other airlines that currently serve San Francisco. The exception for the most part are the United Express routes. Which, are nickel and dime, considering the most pax that the United Express Jungle jets hold are about 60 passengers, or so! No, United Airlines, would not be missed!

Regards - Kahala777
 
dhefty
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:40 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?

Who is this "we" you're talking about, kemo sabe? The NYT is recognized as the best paper in the US, if not the world, and is read regularly by millions of people. They have the largest staff, worldwide scope, and by far the most influence on decision-makers. If they make an occasional error, they usually report it on the corrections page, something that most other rags don't do. As far I know, TV and radio news shows never admit their mistakes and basically have no in-depth coverage. Fox News is pure propaganda.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:40 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times. The same question could be asked of the New York Times. If it fails, would anyone care? Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?

I disagree; The New York Times is an American institution. Read internationally by the left and the right. I’m not sure if readership is down for the NYT, I would like to see those numbers. But in any case the NYT is not a failing business, NYT advertising revenue is not just based on print advertising but also on online advertising. So it would be missed if it were gone, because people all over the world log-on to NYT on the web to get their news.

United on the other hand is a failed business, and would probably be missed by many anetters, but non aviation enthusiasts wouldn’t miss it one bit. Do non aviation enthusiasts miss Pan Am or TWA? I doubt it.
 
RAMPRAT980
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:45 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
It is not the government's place to "monitor" any company's funds, at least not in America. This is why UAL must disclose all of their finances and account for every dime earned and spent, so that any ordinary investor can hold UAL accountable with their wallets. The government has no place running companies.

Like I said if you come to the federal government asking, pleading for money and they give it then they should have a look see at the books. Remember I estimated approx. 18 billion dollars grossed in 2004. Where did all this money go ? I say let UAL fall by the way side. There are pleanty of other airlines out there. Was the industry impacted when Eastern, Pan Am, or TWA faded away ? NO
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
Kahala777
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 19):
I say let UAL fall by the way side

Please... Please... Please...

 hyper 


Regards - Kahala777
 
commavia
Posts: 9781
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 19):
Like I said if you come to the federal government asking, pleading for money and they give it then they should have a look see at the books.

That's just it, though. The US government, you, I or anyone else in the world with a computer can view all of United's books in a matter of seconds by pulling up their financial statements and SEC filings.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 19):
I say let UAL fall by the way side.

I agree. If UA simply cannot come up with a viable business plan, than it should be aloud to fail and the free market should be allowed to take care of the capacity inbalance by itself.
 
RAMPRAT980
Posts: 584
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
That's just it, though. The US government, you, I or anyone else in the world with a computer can view all of United's books in a matter of seconds by pulling up their financial statements and SEC filings.

Please not to be rude, but do you actually think a 10K report is 1,000,000% truthful ?
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
commavia
Posts: 9781
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 22):
Please not to be rude, but do you actually think a 10K report is 1,000,000% truthful ?

Um, not to be rude, but a resounding yes!

Airlines, and all companies for that matter, must be truthful in their financial reporting for fear of fines and criminal prosecution by the government and the even more disastrous consequence: the complete financial collapse of their company due to loss of credibility and trust in the financial markets.

Look at companies that fudged their numbers: Enron, bankrupt, WorldCom, bankrupt, Global Crossing, bankrupt.

As to UA specifically, there is absolutely no evidence that they or their management have ever intentionally manipulated their financial reporting or mislead investors or the public. To do so would be contrary to every corporate moral and ethical standard imaginable. And, while UA's management could perhaps fairly be accused of making some stupid business decisions over the last few years, illegally misrepresenting the financial state of the company is not one of them.
 
RAMPRAT980
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 3:31 am

We can go one about this for eons and on and on.
ENRON, WORLDCOM, GLOBAL CROSSING all fudged their numbers. Essentially they lied. Knowingly put false, I'm sorry, mis-stated info in their 10-K's hoping that things would get better and when things got worse it snowballed and they got caught. To me, A 10-K report is as truthful as a company wants it to be. And there are many who agree with me. Let UAL fall by the way side. Just brush them aside.
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
slider
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 17):
The NYT is recognized as the best paper in the US, if not the world, and is read regularly by millions of people.

Whatever. If the Old York Times is recognized as the best paper in America, then print journalism is dead.

It's lost its influence because it's a sloppy, mismanaged, inaccurate fishwrap. and with the proliferation of blogs, the internet, and 24/7 media, its influence has thankfully been kept in check.

they can't even do basic fact checking on the number of pax UAL carried, much less keep rogue writers in line.
 
DeltaA380
Posts: 84
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times. The same question could be asked of the New York Times. If it fails, would anyone care? Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?

Just wait, soon the liberal revolution will come and we will have health care for all, international respect and perhaps even a government that works with companies and unions in a team effort to save good paying jobs. It will probably be to late for UA but I suspect, that unless der Furher in the White House shuts it down, the New York Times will still be there to report on it.

As to UA, I lost a lot of respect for them after they put a model of a PA DC-8 in their concourse at SFO shortly after PA folded; it looked like a war trophy. Now, unfortunately for the thousands of dedicated UA workers, (and despite the many news reports most of them still are very dedicated,) it may be WN putting a UA 777 in one of their terminals.
Vote Democratic in '06 and '08
 
COfaninBOS
Posts: 284
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 4:07 am

Corporate welfare is a total waste. Somehow, everyone in America blames welfare moms for all our social ills when in reality, it's the corporate fathers who get the most benefits outside of the military.

I also find it laughable that during this heightened "Christian" age in American politics, so many apparently have no problem with stripping people of living wages, healthcare options, and now their retirement pensions.

Jesus would be so proud.
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 4:19 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again; UAL can afford their pension obligations. However, nobody is forcing them to do so. It would require a sale of some assets, but it could be done (think Heathrow, for one). I can't fault the UAL management for trying this, though, as this way they get to keep the crown jewels and make someone else pay for it. And we're letting them.
Will Delta be next? What will be the next industry to follow suit?
Will your pension be next?
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
commavia
Posts: 9781
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 24):
ENRON, WORLDCOM, GLOBAL CROSSING all fudged their numbers. Essentially they lied. Knowingly put false, I'm sorry, mis-stated info in their 10-K's hoping that things would get better and when things got worse it snowballed and they got caught. To me, A 10-K report is as truthful as a company wants it to be. And there are many who agree with me.

Just for those still counting -- how many of those companies still exist in the same state and/or at the same size today?
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18253
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times.

It is fascinating to watch the debating games people play on these boards. I assume they are educated to it at school?

For example, that post of yours falls into the "Shoot the Messenger" caregory.

I read the report before I saw this thread and was rather surprised that, despite the headline, it seems to imply that Mr. Tilton may be in the process pulling off something remarkable, using the bankruptcy laws more acutely than they have ever been used before.

It was certainly extremely well argued, if contentious, but you'd never get that from reading this thread.

Facinating.

cheers

m ariner
aeternum nauta
 
RAMPRAT980
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:06 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 29):
Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 24):
ENRON, WORLDCOM, GLOBAL CROSSING all fudged their numbers. Essentially they lied. Knowingly put false, I'm sorry, mis-stated info in their 10-K's hoping that things would get better and when things got worse it snowballed and they got caught. To me, A 10-K report is as truthful as a company wants it to be. And there are many who agree with me.

Just for those still counting -- how many of those companies still exist in the same state and/or at the same size today?

I don't know for sure if they all faded away but at the very least significantly downsized
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
schipholjfk
Posts: 521
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 5:54 am

How to Succeed in Business, Without Really Succeeding

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/business/yourmoney/15air.html


HERE'S a pop quiz for you frequent fliers (and disgruntled investors and union members): Who was the highest-paid executive at a major domestic airline last year, taking home $1.1 million in salary and bonus?

Not Gary C. Kelly at Southwest: His reward for running the industry's most profitable company was just $542,000. Nor was it Bruce Lakefield at US Airways, who got $425,000 as his company struggled to avoid liquidation. And forget about Gerald Grinstein at Delta, who earned a mere $250,000 as his airline battled to stay out of bankruptcy protection.

The big payday went to Glenn F. Tilton, the chief executive of United Airlines...


Read the rest at the New York Time...
The fun of flying... love it !!!
 
schipholjfk
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:11 pm

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Interesting coming from the Out-of-Touch Times. The same question could be asked of the New York Times. If it fails, would anyone care? Newspaper readership is at an all time low. Americans, like it or not, ignore all of the very left of center editorial positions taken by the Times. So what would we miss more, the New York Times or United Airlines?

Okay Rush Limbaugh. That is why NY Times has a circulation over 1 million. Get a clue! An average American could not point at Washington DC on a map or name the Vice President let alone read newspaper... so we all have to LOWER our standards and think like an average clueless American? Here is a clue... most Americans also DO NOT care about airlines or airline companies like most people do at A.net.

[Edited 2005-05-15 22:58:58]
The fun of flying... love it !!!
 
commavia
Posts: 9781
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 31):
I don't know for sure if they all faded away but at the very least significantly downsized.

Exactly -- CEOs of any big companies, let alone airlines, can't just go around recklessly disregarding the law and business ethics and completely mistating their company's finances in financial statements and SEC filings.

The consequences, when (not if) caught, are far too big as evidenced by the shape of said companies today versus five years ago.
 
RAMPRAT980
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:06 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 8:01 am

AS I HAVE STATED EARLIER


Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 31):
To me, A 10-K report is as truthful as a company wants it to be. And there are many who agree with me.
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
ib16uk
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 8:10 am

Im sure the 61,000 employees would miss UA

As would UAs regular travellers

I agree it is `criminal` what UA have done to their employees this week

Am I right in assuming that UAs action this week is right across the board ?

Even Senior Management?????????

Iain
Cabin Crew Wannabe
 
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jaybird
Posts: 176
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 8:24 am

the Times can stick it .. a few years ago they were relentless in knocking the company I work for (not travel related) .. if we "moved left" they said we should have moved right .. if we moved right they said we should have moved backward .. then as quickly as it started - it ended .. the world doesn't live and die with the NYTimes (as much as that might offend the New Yorkers on here .. )  Wink

as for United - I've supported them in the past, continue to do so, and WILL continue to do so in the future .. are they perfect? no .. is any airline perfect? heck no - and if someone says yes they're just had a VERY fortunte string of good luck .. i'm not anti-any airline .. but i do go out of my way to fly on United and to book our staff on them whenever possible ..
 
SWISSER
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Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 11:24 am

hi Guys,

(My mother works for UAL in BRU(brussels, belgium) since the beginning of service in 1991.)

In Belgium we have a totally government controlled total healthcare and pension package, wich means that who-ever you work for, you recieve the same package as long as you pay taxes to the state.
She off course recieves the same wage cuts etc. al UAL staff gets.

I admire the UAL employees by giving into these very important features,
wich shows the love they have to keep "there" airline alive.

I work for UA too, altough not directly, producing and creating the F and C class products in BRU,I also overlook other carriers off course.

I must admit (and not from my preservations), if you fly international,
book UA, the catering is the best around!

I always state; "worldwide service" "service you get, worldwide"

to the UA employees, keep up the spirit, you guys really deserve an applaus, even if UA falls...
What time is top of descent?
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Ib16uk (Reply 36):
Im sure the 61,000 employees would miss UA

As did the thousands of employees of National Airlines, Sabena, Pan Am, Eastern, Midway, Vangaurd, Trans World, AOM, Air Liberte, UTA and so forth missed their airline as well!

Quoting Ib16uk (Reply 36):
As would UAs regular travellers

You mean the travellers that United Airlines is handing over day after day at:

New York/JFK to Jet Blue and Song
Miami to American Airlines
Honolulu to Hawaiian Airlines
.. and so forth!

Quoting Ib16uk (Reply 36):
I agree it is `criminal` what UA have done to their employees this week

Ok, so why should such an airline be able to bleed the American public of even more taxpayers money?


Regards - Kahala777
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 12:30 pm

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 32):

The big payday went to Glenn F. Tilton, the chief executive of United Airlines...

given his backround, he's getting a paycut, not too mention, maybe an ulcer or two.....he really didn't need to take this job.....some people argue that "anybody" could do it..but not everyone can..there is a shortage of good management talent in the airline industry, especially given its woes and how much of a low margin sector the aviation industry is.....also, Tilton is a "turnaround specialist" who's had many years of bringing back a company from the "dead".....his services are especially needed (and no, I don't think Tilton is in the same category as "Chainsaw Al").

some salaries

NW
Douglas Steenland, 52
Pres, Chief Exec. Officer, Director $ 1.93M

HP
W. Douglas Parker, 43
Chairman, Pres, Chief Exec. Officer of Holdings and AWA $ 1.24M

FL
Joseph Leonard, 61
Chairman, Chief Exec. Officer $ 5.67M N/A
Robert Fornaro, 52
Pres, Chief Operating Officer, Director $ 1.25M $ 2.03M

these companies aren't close (cetainly not HP/FL) to warrant such a large pay....

Quoting Ib16uk (Reply 36):
I agree it is `criminal` what UA have done to their employees this week

why? they are doing everything within the laws and doing the best to keep this carrier solvent....many had predicted the demise of UA a couple of years ago, but not only are they still flying, there is a chance they will come out a leaner and profitable company...

there was too much excess built into this company during the 1990's...not too many people knew back then as too how much excess there was, but we are now finding out (and it isn't pretty)..

even though I'm an elite AA member, I hope UA makes it!

rather than wishing UA/US dead, lets hope they come out in some way, shape, and form so we have more services, employment, and diffenent planes/carriers to enjoy!!
"Up the Irons!"
 
NADC10Fan
Posts: 117
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RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 12:38 pm

Not gonna grouse into the anti-NYT/pro-NYT argument; it's not my paper, and so I don't have a dog in that fight. I could take it or leave it. The following, however ...

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 19):
Like I said if you come to the federal government asking, pleading for money and they give it then they should have a look see at the books. Remember I estimated approx. 18 billion dollars grossed in 2004. Where did all this money go ? I say let UAL fall by the way side. There are plenty of other airlines out there. Was the industry impacted when Eastern, Pan Am, or TWA faded away ? NO

I will entirely agree that continued corporate welfare for UA - much as I would like to see UA continue to fly for a multitude of reasons - is not something to be continuously supported, scrutiny or lack thereof notwithstanding.

Where I take exception is in the statement on whether or not the deaths of the other three major airlines named had impact on the industry. That was an awfully quick - and I think unwise - "no" that you threw in there, Ramprat. I believe there certainly was impact, and on a number of fronts.

Remember that when Eastern and Pan Am - and to a lesser extent TWA - died, the industry was very different. Yes, deregulation had come about, but we still had yet to see the tremendous overlap of services that now exist (and which make UA rather superfluous). When they passed, you had huge gaps in service which had to be filled. Now, yes, airlines did step up, take the routes and in many cases the planes into hand and offer that service in replacement ... but at what cost?

While I will grant I cannot prove this in hard numbers, I find the reasoning logical and borne out by what observations I have made of the industry over the years; and so I offer you the following for thought:

These gaps that were created and into which the Deltas and Uniteds and etc.'s of the industry first rushed to fill created much if not most or even all of the instability which we see in the US legacy carriers at the least. They simply were not ready for the expansion they had to undergo to continue the services already offered and swallow the new ones as well, and they were not ready for the fresh competition that would step up to the plate with new ideas and approaches as a result of both the failures AND deregulation; and when these things happened. they sure as shooting didn't handle ANY of it at all well. And so the rumbles from those original failures still resonate to this day.

In addition, I think you devalue the local impact of the failures. When both Eastern and Pan Am failed in fairly short order, I can tell you it was a hammer-blow to the South Florida aviation industry in particular and to the area's overall economy in general. The reasons for this are many and obvious, and I won't insult anyone by repeating them. And while South Florida has seen recovery generally, I think the aviation industry down here still suffers from those failures; what used to be a thriving headquarters for two airlines now struggles to keep the occasional startup alive for any length of time, and the huge operations bases that used to see constant movement now stand with one essentially demolished and the other only a shadow of it's former self.

Perhaps the world in general doesn't particularly care; but I must tell you that this fact DOES have impact, on thousands of lives, not the least of which are people I know ... and some who are family. And many of these highly skilled people never returned to the industry; and THAT has impact as well.

So perhaps it's worth rethinking that statement, if only a little.
TANSTAAFL!
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 12:44 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 40):
there is a chance they will come out a leaner and profitable company...

Yes, in what decade?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 40):
maybe an ulcer or two

We can hope for three!

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 40):
Tilton is a "turnaround specialist"

To where? Victorville?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 40):
we have more services, employment, and diffenent planes/carriers to enjoy!!

Sure, keep United Airlines around so you can fly on a 777? That makes business sense!


Regards - Kahala777
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:43 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 1:16 pm

I think that is really inappropriate for such a prestegious newspaper such as the New York Times to publish. Honestly, especially since they consider themselves a LIBERAL newspaper. An article like this is something that belongs in the National Enquirer. The author Michaeline Maynard is also the one who has been covering all the aviation news (US's struggles, UA, etc), she should really know her facts--and should double check them before publishing stuff.

Here are my bones to pick:
1) She does not work for the airline, so she has no reason to be complaining for them-that's not her job and it's how she's coming accross

2) Wouldn't a single carrier aquire many of UA's routes (like they did with Pan Am's)

3) DEN being a "gateway to west coast routes" is an amigious assertation, and a misnomer. Any city east of Sacramento is a "gateway" to the West Coast

4) There are very few major airports that truly give UA problems in terms of LCC's. I would say IAD/DCA is one, and DEN is questionable (how much is Fronteir really hurting them). The examples given are also weak. AirTran only competes with UA on routes from the E. Coast to Florida.

5)"its collapse would not even allow ticket prices to rise much - bad news for other struggling airlines that need higher prices to help them recover costs."--Duh, and what's your point?

And finally...
"But the truth is that for United's passengers - there were six million last year - and competing airlines, it might not matter all that much if the carrier disappeared."
-Yes it would. What about the hub cities, who is going to immedealty pick up the slack? What if another airline doesn't? And what about international traffic... I don't hear any mention of that.

Poor article, no real hard evidence (often mistaken or re-worked), and no logical reasoning... very poor.
 
jetclipper747
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:10 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:01 pm

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 13):

Ever since I started at UA (23 yrs ago) I wondered which self-righteous "journalist" didn't get a free upgrade they think they deserved by their lowly status and got bent out of shape. I am not an airplane idiot savant sitting behind a monitor all day. I am in the skies 21 days a month trying to pay the bills and keeping our passengers happy so that they'll return. I am constantly apologizing for supplies that are not boarded, enforcing security, keeping small children out of the overhead bins, and catching crap from a man who rips my head off because he got up late and did not get breakfast and does not get a meal on the :53 minute flight to SFO. Whether you approve of Tilton or not he has helped make UA into the leanest and most efficient in it's history. He said that we're not going to make the same mistakes that US Airways did by coming out before we're going to stay out. We're going to survive (sorry guys) and who knows what UA will look like 10 yrs from now. We expecting something like TED for all domestic (cause that's what the flying public wants - $40. seats) and the best US carrier to International destinations.
Am I mad about my pension, 33% pay cut, and having to work two jobs? Yes. But, being an adult I do what I need to do. We all make choices in life. By the way, we still have pensions. 25% less if this thing works. One might not have read this, if the ny times was their only form of media, but we got turned down for the government loan guarantees last year becaue it was decided that we were doing to well to merit "welfare". Please tell me where all this "welfare money from the government" went. You want to talk about airline problems? Read the Wall Street Journal and look up Delta Airlines. If we're on approach to the vast pit of Pan Am, Eastern, and TWA, Delta is looking for a hand hold along the edge. It's almost time to liquidate in ATL. Nothing left to mortgage out!
If you read the ny times (or USA Today, The SF Chronicle, or any other daily) and actually believe what is written between it's pages you must, like me, be a great lover of fiction. And please, stop thinking that everyone who dislikes the media is a right-winger. Last I heard, and my union would do wonders to understand this, is that WE live in America and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just as you have the right to call the ny times a moderate news paper, I have the right to remind everyone that only the BIG news sells and that all papers and "journalists" are trying to sell their papers. Thanks for your time. This is the first posting I have ever made on the internet in the 12 years I have owned a computer. I'm working too much I guess.
Sometimes a banana is just a banana.
 
jetclipper747
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:10 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:15 pm

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 24):

That's right. To hell with'em and may all the emplyees go on their way. Boy, why would you wish anyone to be out on the streets without a job? You ever heard of Kharma? I like your estimated numbers though. Can you do my check book? I need to show an extra billion.
Sometimes a banana is just a banana.
 
jetclipper747
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:10 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:22 pm

Quoting DeltaA380 (Reply 26):

The DC-8 was put up because it was the just moved there from the Pan Am hanger (now gone) that UA was refitting for their emergency training facilities. I seriously doubt it was malicious intent. As always with UA - just poor timing.
I was a cool model and I do still wonder what happened to it. There was also a 1/25 scale 707 that was in the Pan Am cafeteria.
Sometimes a banana is just a banana.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 2:33 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 42):
Yes, in what decade?

hmmm...lets see....considering we are a bit 4 1/2 years away to the next decade, I would assume it would be this decade...no, wait, given the rate at which UA is operating, lets give them until next decade..that's right..I couldn't figure it out for a few moments..but I got everything sorted now... thumbsup 

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 42):
We can hope for three!

 expressionless 

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 42):
To where? Victorville?

damn..u're brilliant..how did you guess??  confused   confused   sarcastic 

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 42):

Sure, keep United Airlines around so you can fly on a 777? That makes business sense!

sure, as my screen name implies, i'm somewhat a 777-biased person..and with UA being one of the largest 777 users in the world, it sure does makes sense to me (so he says in a sardonic voice)......  yes   wave 
"Up the Irons!"
 
DeltaA380
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:18 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Mon May 16, 2005 3:59 pm

Jetclipper747,

Thanks for your informative response, I have known quite a few people who have worked for UA over the years and I think UA has lot's of great and dedicated people. Never having had a chance to fly PA, I was always rather bitter about their demise; as you say, poor timing.
Vote Democratic in '06 and '08
 
RAMPRAT980
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:06 am

RE: NY Times To UAL, Drop Dead III

Tue May 17, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting Jetclipper747 (Reply 45):
That's right. To hell with'em and may all the emplyees go on their way. Boy, why would you wish anyone to be out on the streets without a job? You ever heard of Kharma? I like your estimated numbers though. Can you do my check book? I need to show an extra billion.

Sorry if you're upset but there is too much fat out there and its time that some of it gets trimmed off. You are right there are many, many dediacted people at UAL. And it would be sad for them to loose their jobs but unfortunately the person who should be the most dedicated employee is the one at the top and he isn't doing such a great job. Is he ? Seriously, did UAL really need to start up "TED". Maybe that money should have been spent for employee pensions. Instead they deferred pension payments saying they'll make it up later and now look what happened. Being that the airline industry is so customer service oriented then finding a civil service job shouldn't be a problem.  wave 
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