RICARIZA
Topic Author
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Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Mon May 16, 2005 12:58 pm

The oldest airline in the world, KLM and the second, AVIANCA, were really close on the dates they were established and the dates they made their first flights, look at this:

KLM's foundation: October 7, 1919
AVIANCA's foundation:December 5, 1919

KLM's first flight: May 17, 1920
AVIANCA's first flight: September 20, 1920

I thought the differences were more notorious, but it was only a few months of difference.

Also KLM suspended services in two ocasions:
First between December 1920 and April 1921 due to a heavy winter and also between 1944 to 1945 due to WWII, that makes Avianca the most continuously running commercial airline in the world.
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
Armada
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Mon May 16, 2005 2:24 pm

For what it is worth.....

Chalk's Ocean Airways claims title of world's oldest. It started regular service in Feb., 1919 (between Miami and Bimini), with initial operations starting in 1917 before Mr. Arthur Chalk went off to fight in WWI.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Mon May 16, 2005 2:35 pm

Quoting RICARIZA (Thread starter):
KLM's first flight: May 17, 1920

In two days, it will be the 85 anniversary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
LHB727230Adv
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Mon May 16, 2005 2:40 pm

In fact, the Deutsche Luftreederei (renamed Lufthansa on the 6th Jan 1926) was founded on the 13th Dec 1917 with its first flight on the 5th Feb 1919. This makes LH 86 years and 3 months old. Unfortunately, LH suspended services after WWII until 1st Apr 1955.

Cheers,
Alex  bigthumbsup 
 
ozglobal
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Mon May 16, 2005 9:34 pm

"Papers formally establishing Qantas were signed in the Gresham Hotel, Brisbane, on 16 November 1920. " QF Website

http://www.qantas.com.au/info/about/history/details2
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
squirrel83
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Mon May 16, 2005 9:49 pm

Quoting LHB727230Adv (Reply 3):
LH suspended services after WWII until 1st Apr 1955.

Why was LH Operations suspended after WWII? may i ask details . . . .
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
legacy135
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Mon May 16, 2005 9:54 pm

Quoting Squirrel83 (Reply 5):
Why was LH Operations suspended after WWII? may i ask details . . . .

Well, Germany was under the supervision of the allied forces and has not been allowed to fly those days. But as I am not of this generation and furthermore Swiss, maybe a German colleague being more familiar with the subject may pop in and explain in details.
 
123
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Mon May 16, 2005 10:05 pm

If you check LB, it was founded in September 1925 and has been operating without interruption ever since. If you look at it that way "without interruption", it could with Chalks´be the oldest continuously operating airline in the world, because as I understand, LH/KL have interrupted operations, although I´m unsure about QF and Avianca.
 
flymia
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Mon May 16, 2005 10:06 pm

Quoting RICARIZA (Thread starter):
The oldest airline in the world, KLM and the second, AVIANCA, were really close on the dates they were established and the dates they made their first flights, look at this:

The battle is between KLM and Chalks Ocean Airways. No one is really sure who is the oldest. KLM says they are. Which I think KLM is the older but not by much.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
slider
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Mon May 16, 2005 10:09 pm

Most people recognize KLM as the world's oldest carrier, but I seem to recall readnig somewhere that Aerolineas Argentina was among the oldest.

I'll have to validate or look into it, but for whatever reason, the name just popped into my head.

I know NW is the oldest American major carrier.
 
flymia
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Mon May 16, 2005 10:11 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 9):
I know NW is the oldest American major carrier

Chalks Ocean Airways is the oldest airline in America.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
RICARIZA
Topic Author
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 12:01 am

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 8):
The battle is between KLM and Chalks Ocean Airways. No one is really sure who is the oldest. KLM says they are. Which I think KLM is the older but not by much.

The worlds' first airline DELAG was established on October 16, 1909, to carry passengers between German cities by Zeppelin airships.

KLM is the worlds' oldest airline established in 1919 and Avianca the second, established in 1919 as well.

Check what the USA Today says on its last lines of this article:
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2003/07/10-avianca.htm
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
acvitale
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 12:14 am

I believe that Chalk's is the oldest as they started several months before KLM. The problem is that they changed names between Chalks to Pan Am Air Bridge and back to Chalks then to Chalks Ocean Airways.

KLM on the other hand did cease ops

Avianca in another thread supposedly did as well.

Of course KLM fans don't like to talk about Chalks as it is small and does not count in their minds.

It is all relative as to what qualifies and what does not.....

But for oldest airline that still exists today its Chalks!
 
petazulu
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 12:43 am

Does KLM still count as an airline? Outside of the paint job, I thought they were part of Air France now?
 
jush
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
quirrel83 (Reply 5):
Why was LH Operations suspended after WWII? may i ask details . . . .

Well, Germany was under the supervision of the allied forces and has not been allowed to fly those days. But as I am not of this generation and furthermore Swiss, maybe a German colleague being more familiar with the subject may pop in and explain in details.

Well, Germany wasn't allowed to have their own Airservice anymore as well we weren't allowed to have any force. After the allowance to have a force again Lufthansa was allowed to enter service again but wasn't allowed to enter Easr Germany and especially Berlin. I hope this explanation is sufficient enough for you..

Matt
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
Junction
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 1:09 am

This is probably a dumb question, but what does the K, L and M mean in KLM Royal Dutch Airlines?
 
FA4B6
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 2:33 am

I thought it was Mexicana?
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
Morvious
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 3:14 am

Quoting Junction (Reply 15):
This is probably a dumb question, but what does the K, L and M mean in KLM Royal Dutch Airlines?

There are no dumb questions, only dumb answeres.

Koningklijke / Royal
Luchtvaart / Aviation
Maatschappij / Company

This is a straight translation.
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
TACAA320
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 2):

In two days, it will be the 85 anniversary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did they stopped during WWII?
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
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keesje
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 12):
KLM on the other hand did cease ops

I never heard of this, services in the Caribean were continued afaik during those 1940-45.


I think Bristol-Lisbon was also flow during 1944-45.


KLM's European operation was suspended from 1939 to 1945, and some of its aircraft were chartered to the British Government for flights between London and Lisbon. In other parts of the world, KLM continued its pioneering, and by 1945, its network in Central and South America covered 5,761 miles, including 14 cities in 9 countries.

Source http://www.lib.uwo.ca/business/cr-klm.htm

The US carrier Chalk's Ocean Airways was founded in 1919 (date?) changed owners and names many times and came out of bankruptsy in 1999. http://www.chalksoceanairways.com/history/airline.htm>
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Junction
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting Morvious (Reply 17):
Koningklijke / Royal
Luchtvaart / Aviation
Maatschappij / Company

This is a straight translation.

Thanks for the info...I didn't see this even on the KL web site in the history section.
 
AMSSFO
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting Junction (Reply 15):
This is probably a dumb question, but what does the K, L and M mean in KLM Royal Dutch Airlines?



Quoting Morvious (Reply 17):
Koningklijke / Royal

Koninklijke (without g) Luchtvaart Maatschappij
translation is correct

Quoting Petazulu (Reply 13):
Does KLM still count as an airline? Outside of the paint job, I thought they were part of Air France now?

AF/KL is a holding with two different brands (AF and KL) both operating under their own licences. So KL does still count as world's oldest airline continuously operating under the same name.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 12:54 pm

Mexicana founded on July 12 1921 pretty close.....

https://www.mexicana.com/main/
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
SonicZoom87
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 1:20 pm

KLM - 1919
Florida's "Chalk's Ocean Airways" - 1919 (this one only flies a handful of small seaplanes)
Avianca - 1919
Qantas - 1920 (So far not a single airplane accident ever reported; Record!!!)
Mexicana - 1921
Bolivia's "LAB" - 1925
In the United States the oldest airline is "Northwest" - 1926 (Northwest's pilot uniforms toast their airline's origins as a postal service contractor with the words "U.S. Mail" in the center of their emblems.)

I give credit for the facts posted to Patrick Smith, author of the great book named "Ask the Pilot". Personally I recommend it for all aviator's enthusiasts!
 
OzLAME
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 1:43 pm

Quoting SonicZoom87 (Reply 23):
Qantas - 1920 (So far not a single airplane accident ever reported; Record!!!)

Not true I'm afraid. Plenty of fatal accidents prior to and during WWII, last fatal accident in I think 1950, seven dead in a de Havilland Australia DHA-3 Drover off Lae in PNG. Lost a Connie off the end of the runway in Mauritius and of course there was the 747 at BKK a few years ago. Still an impressive record for an airline of QANTAS' size and age.
Monty Python's Flying Circus has nothing to do with aviation, except perhaps for Management personnel.
 
SonicZoom87
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 1:59 pm

OzLAME thanks for correcting me is true I checked a couple of websites and Quantas has not had a fatal accident in some 30 years or so but they have had fatal accidents and non-fatal ones in they're airline career history, so I do want to apologize "a.net" and thanks again for the correction.
 
OzLAME
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 2:25 pm

Don't sweat it SonicZoom, and welcome to a.net!
Monty Python's Flying Circus has nothing to do with aviation, except perhaps for Management personnel.
 
QantasPilot
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 4:21 pm

Quoting SonicZoom87 (Reply 25):

Please spell it as "Qantas".
Q = Queensland
A = And
N = Northern
T = Territory
A = Aerial
S = Services

Thanks,
Blake / QantasPilot  Wink
 
HAL
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 5:32 pm

Hawaiian Airlines:

Founded January 30th, 1929.
Has been operating continuously since then.
No mergers with or by other airlines - has stood on its own since the beginning.
Not one single passenger fatality in its 76 year history, having transported over 130 million passengers since it started operations.
Currently ranked #1 in US in overall passenger satisfaction: On time performance, baggage handling, fewest passenger complaints.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
DouglasDC10
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Tue May 17, 2005 6:30 pm

Keesje, as far as I know, there was also a route from the UK to Gibraltar operated by KLM. But I don't know, if this route was operated in the whole time from 1940 until 1945. At least, we can be quite sure that KLM did not cease operations in the war years but continued its caribbean flights and was awarded some routes out of the UK.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Wed May 18, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting SonicZoom87 (Reply 25):
OzLAME thanks for correcting me is true I checked a couple of websites and Quantas has not had a fatal accident in some 30 years or so but they have had fatal accidents and non-fatal ones in they're airline career history, so I do want to apologize "a.net" and thanks again for the correction.

In fact, it's "No fatalities in the Jet Era". Fatal accidents were all in smaller prop. planes during or before WWII, i.e. nothing in the last 60 years. The three non-fatal incidents since WWII are listed below. The WWII incidents were mainly in Papua New Ginea in a war zone, so were hardly under civil aviation conditions. The small number of other early incidents were before WWII.

date type registration operator fat. location
22-SEP-1999 Boeing 747 VH-OJH Qantas 0 Thailand A2
24-AUG-1960 Lockheed L-1049 VH-EAC Qantas 0 Mauritius A1
07-APR-1949 Avro Lancastrian VH-EAS Qantas 0 Australia A1
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
RICARIZA
Topic Author
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Wed May 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Quoting SonicZoom87 (Reply 23):
KLM - 1919
Florida's "Chalk's Ocean Airways" - 1919 (this one only flies a handful of small seaplanes)
Avianca - 1919
Qantas - 1920 (So far not a single airplane accident ever reported; Record!!!)
Mexicana - 1921
Bolivia's "LAB" - 1925

This is a nice summary.. Thanks SonicZoom87 and Welcome!
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
123
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Wed May 18, 2005 9:33 pm

Ajá, so LAB made it on the top 6 list! You see, LAB might be a small airline but without it, Bolivia would not have progressed due to it´s topography: Mountains over 6000 m and lowlands up to around 100 m, and a very low population density.

Under actual administration LAB will for sure survive for many years to come, something a few years ago, under VASP administration, was under risk.

Thanks SonicZoom87 for the list you sent, it makes the whole point of this thread clear at one sight.

123
 
TACAA320
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Wed May 18, 2005 9:53 pm

TA was also an old one.

Was found back in 1931 in Honduras by a New Zealand's citizen entrepreneur.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
flymia
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Thu May 19, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting SonicZoom87 (Reply 23):
In the United States the oldest airline is "Northwest" - 1926 (Northwest's pilot uniforms toast their airline's origins as a postal service contractor with the words "U.S. Mail" in the center of their emblems.)


Well since Chalks Ocean Airways is in Florida I would imagine Chalks would be the United States oldest airline. Do you mean major airline?
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
SonicZoom87
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Thu May 19, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting Flymia (Reply 34):
Well since Chalks Ocean Airways is in Florida I would imagine Chalks would be the United States oldest airline. Do you mean major airline?

Yes indeed Northwest is the oldest American Major Airline. Now it could have started earlier as a postal service contractor before Chalk's Ocean Airways began service and Northwest would have started oficially as an airline in 1926 but I don't have facts on this one, we would really have to do an in-depth research. Chalk's Ocean Airways being not so popular and serving just a small area I would consider it more of a "regional" airline.

Thanks,
Juan
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Thu May 19, 2005 11:14 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 9):
Most people recognize KLM as the world's oldest carrier, but I seem to recall readnig somewhere that Aerolineas Argentina was among the oldest

AR are only 55 years old...
 
TACAA320
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Thu May 19, 2005 1:18 pm

KLM was documented as the oldest airline, founded on 7 October 1919 and beginning service 17 May 1920.

Avianca of Colombia is listed as the oldest in the Americas and second oldest in the world.

Mexicana, the Mexican air carrier, is often listed as the oldest in North America.

Northwest is listed as the oldest US air carrier. This will require further research since today’s Northwest is comprised of several airlines through mergers over the years, including North Central, Southern, and Republic among others.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
jeb94
Posts: 587
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Thu May 19, 2005 6:51 pm

Lufthansa was a major player in developing the Luftwaffe of the Third Reich. Many, in fact most, of its aircraft were bombers disguised to look like airliners. The Do17 is a blatant example. It could never serve well as an airliner and yet it was part of Lufthansa's pre WW2 fleet. That is the most likely reason it was suspended from flying until '55.
 
flymia
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Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Fri May 20, 2005 3:55 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 37):
Avianca of Colombia is listed as the oldest in the Americas and second oldest in the world.

Chalks is considered the 2nd oldest airline in the world and oldest in the Americas. Just because it is a small airline does not mean it does not count. It was founded in 1917 I think and started service in 1919.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
waterpolodan
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Fri May 20, 2005 5:31 am

Just curious, anyone else ever flown on Chalks? I took a flight from Miami to bimini to Nassau on one of their Grumman mallards about 8 years ago or so... pretty entertaining!
 
adriaticus
Posts: 989
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RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Fri May 20, 2005 4:02 pm

(1) KLM (Koninklijke luchtvaartmaatschappij), founded October 7, 1919;
(2) Avianca, founded as SCADTA (Sociedad Colombo-Alemana de Transporte Aéreo) on December 5, 1919;
(3) Qantas (formerly Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services, Ltd.), founded November 3, 1920;
(4) Mexicana (Compañía Mexicana de Aviación, S.A.), founded July 12, 1921;
(5) CSA (formerly Ceskoslovenske Aerolinie) founded on October 6, 1923
(6) Finnair, which was founded as Aero O/Y on November 1, 1923.

That puts LAB on the 7th place, (1925).

Also, as per its own website, Chalk's Ocean Airways was founded as an air taxi service in 1919, and was not incorporated as an airline until the 1950's. Therefore, it cannot be on the league of KL, AV or MX.

Regards,
___Ad.
A300/18/19/20/21 B721/2 B732/3/G/8 B741/2/4 B752 B762/3/4 B772/3 DC8/9/10 MD11 TU134/154 IL62/86 An24 SA340/2000 E45/90
 
flymia
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Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Fri May 20, 2005 9:54 pm

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 40):
Just curious, anyone else ever flown on Chalks? I took a flight from Miami to bimini to Nassau on one of their Grumman mallards about 8 years ago or so... pretty entertaining!

Yea I flown them a couple of times. Very convient airline to use, and lots of fun the water landing and takeoffs and be able to look in the cockpit the whole flight.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
RICARIZA
Topic Author
Posts: 2029
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:56 am

RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Fri May 20, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting Adriaticus (Reply 41):
Also, as per its own website, Chalk's Ocean Airways was founded as an air taxi service in 1919, and was not incorporated as an airline until the 1950's. Therefore, it cannot be on the league of KL, AV or MX.

Good Point Adriaticus!
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
TANS
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:46 pm

RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Sat May 21, 2005 12:14 am

It might be interesting to note that CSA Czech Airlines started operating in 1923 (on the 23rd of October to be precise). They first flew on an Aero A-14 (Brandenburg) from Prague to Bratislava, covering a distance of 321 km. They interrupted service only once, between 1939 and 1945. They always had the name CSA, changing only the first words of the brand from Czechoslovak to Czech airlines in 1993.

To be fair, they were not the first airline in Central Europe. They were preceded by Austrian Airlines and LOT (1918 and 1921, respectively). I wonder how true this quote from Austrian's web might be: "Austria established the world’s first regular international air connection on 1 April 1918, when it opened its route between Vienna and Kiev." Any thoughts?
 
JHSfan
Posts: 460
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 6:22 am

RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Sat May 21, 2005 12:19 am

Adriaticus - thank you for your list. I have to add a (0) to the list!

Det Danske Luftfartselskab (DDL) was founded on October 29th 1918. Almost one year before KLM. First flight was on August 7th 1920, when a De Havilland DH9 plane left Copenhagen for first Malmoe in Sweden and then continued to Warnemünde in nothern Germany.

The company has been flying ever since, also during WWII. Today it is the Danish part of SAS. The company is also known as "SAS Danmark A/S".
SAS was in 1946 formed from "Det Danske Luftfartselskab A/S" (DDL), "Det Norske Luftfartselskap A/S" (DNL) and "Svensk Interkontinetal Lufttrafik AB" (SILA).

Yours in realtime
JHSfan
Look at me, I´m riding high, I´m the airbornmaster of the sky...
 
NWADC9
Posts: 3942
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:33 am

RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Sat May 21, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting SonicZoom87 (Reply 35):
Now it could have started earlier as a postal service contractor before Chalk's Ocean Airways began service and Northwest would have started oficially as an airline in 1926 but I don't have facts on this one, we would really have to do an in-depth research.

NWA (then NorthWest Airways, Inc.) started out in 1926 flying two rented open-air bi-planes between MSP and Chigago with stops in Wisconsin for fuel. They didn't exist before then.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 37):
Northwest is listed as the oldest US air carrier. This will require further research since today�s Northwest is comprised of several airlines through mergers over the years, including North Central, Southern, and Republic among others.

Northwest is older than all of them, so we're still ancient stuff.
I convert Jet A and 100LL into noise.
 
AMSSFO
Posts: 912
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:42 am

RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Sat May 21, 2005 12:36 am

Quoting JHSfan (Reply 45):
Det Danske Luftfartselskab (DDL)

would only count if it is still flying under its own name or at least under its licenses. Merger etc do not count; otherwise there are many companies older than KLM (see Austrian link above): world's oldest airline still flying under its own name without interruption since its foundation.
 
MCOtoATL
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 1999 12:01 pm

RE: Oldest Airline In The World.. Very Close..

Sat May 21, 2005 2:04 am

And here's another piece of trivia. KLM's original fleet (circa 1920) consisted of several DC-9s that still fly with Northwest!!!!!

 liar 

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