intothinair
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Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Tue May 17, 2005 9:19 pm

Lion Air is very close to a 60 aircraft order, most probably the B737-800/900 or A320. Lion Air expects to make the decision by the end of May.

Cheers, Konstantin G.

Source: http://www.atwonline.com/news/other.html?issueDate=5%2F17%2F2005
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Tue May 17, 2005 9:24 pm

Interesting they had signed an MOU for 737-900 and then Airbus made a counter offer AFTER the deal was "done". I think they will stick with Boeing.
One Nation Under God
 
N754PR
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:14 am

Unless the contract is signed its worth nothing. Hope Airbus get the deal.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
burnsie28
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting N754PR (Reply 2):
Unless the contract is signed its worth nothing. Hope Airbus get the deal.

Uh why?
 
kl911
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting N754PR (Reply 2):
Unless the contract is signed its worth nothing. Hope Airbus get the deal.

Me too! Nothing beats the A320!

KL911
 
gkirk
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Me too! Nothing beats the A320!

Except the 737....by a few thousand orders  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
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scbriml
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:21 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 1):
Interesting they had signed an MOU for 737-900 and then Airbus made a counter offer AFTER the deal was "done". I think they will stick with Boeing.

It was reported in this week's Flight International that the MOU was of the "loose, non-binding" variety, and was for 737-900X (if such a beast really exists).

They have received bids from both Airbus and Boeing and are currently negotiating on price. A winner may be selected by the end of the month.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Me too! Nothing beats the A320!

Nothing except all versions of the Boeing 737NG family that is.  Smile
 
D950
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:30 am

"They have received bids from both Airbus and Boeing and are currently negotiating on price. A winner may be selected by the end of the month".

With this airlines history, a "loser" will be picked by months end.
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
trent900
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 5):
Except the 737....by a few thousand orders

A few thousand orders?? I think you'll find that both manufacturers have sold roughly equal numbers in the same time period.

I think Lion will stick with boeing unless the airbus price was very good.

D.
 
mandala499
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:46 am

Interesting they had signed an MOU for 737-900 and then Airbus made a counter offer AFTER the deal was "done". I think they will stick with Boeing.

and...

It was reported in this week's Flight International that the MOU was of the "loose, non-binding" variety, and was for 737-900X (if such a beast really exists)

They actually initially announced that they've ordered 40 of them or so, valued at a ridiculous price... It was in the newspapers here.

It was only after "someone" raised the improbability of such orders being signed that quickly that they then conceded that "Airbus was still revising their offer"...

Then someone mentioned that it couldn't be an order if Airbus is still offering...
Lo-and-behold... Lion then announced that the original order was actually an MOU...

So, where did ATW get the news from? Boeing? Airbus? Or "Antara" news agency or the local newspapers in Indonesia?

This is an airline that announced that GECAS is a Boeing subsidiary and CIT leasing is a McDD subsidiary, and CIT leased them MD90s (and guess what, CIT said "We do not have any MD90s in our portfolio") and that the 734 and MD90 deal is a sign of not only the financial community's confidence in them, but also the manufacturers... *yea rite*

Then you got the "Fly in our 1996 built planes" advert when their youngest plane was 1994 and the average fleet was 1985 and their sole 1996 MD80 had gone to another airline the year before...

Earlier this month, they had another incident in WAAA/Makassar where a tyre burst occured... and guess what, they accused the airport of "putting sharp objects" on the runway!

Pax numbers down, crew leaving, MX nightmare (overhauled planes impounded for not being paid), hotels demanding cash payments (no more hotel credits for JT in a lot of places), incidents about once a month... Do they really have the money to cover even the lease downpayments/deposits for such an order?

"To replace their MD80"????? Well MD80s going to "subsidiary" Wings Air (5 already there), and Lion is increasing their 734 fleet... Wings will also shut down their Dash8 ops due to falling loads, falling reliability.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
burnsie28
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 9):
Quoting Gkirk (Reply 5):
Except the 737....by a few thousand orders

A few thousand orders?? I think you'll find that both manufacturers have sold roughly equal numbers in the same time period.

I think Lion will stick with boeing unless the airbus price was very good.

I think he was talking overall  Wink
 
trent900
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 5:31 am

Ahh.. I see. Sorry I'm a bit slow today  dopey  You never know sometimes though.

D.
 
CrossChecked
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 7:27 am

To those who say that the Boeing 737-NG family of aircraft is better than the Airbus A320 family of aircraft, I would love to hear your reasoning.

We hear too many A Vs. B wars on here taking place between the resident pre-schoolers but I am yet to read WHY people prefer one to the other.

I'm an Airbus fan myself. I find the aircraft (particularly the narrow-bodies) far, far more comfortable, smoother, quieter and they tend to keep looking relatively new for some time, whereas Boeings tend to age (atleast in the cabins) more quickly.
Cabin crew, doors to manual and cross check.
 
norcal
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 13):
I find the aircraft (particularly the narrow-bodies) far, far more comfortable, smoother, quieter and they tend to keep looking relatively new for some time, whereas Boeings tend to age (atleast in the cabins) more quickly.

I'd agree with the quieter, as for comfort, I never notice the difference. I think the cabin interiors have more to do with the airline that installs them and less with Boeing/Airbus. Does the noise have to do with the engines? I think that B6 operates with the IAE engines while WN has CFM engines. My question is, are the IAE engines quieter than the CFM ones?
 
kl911
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 5):
Quoting KL911 (Reply 4):
Me too! Nothing beats the A320!


Except the 737....by a few thousand orders

Sorry, I was talking about passenger comfort. Quiet and more space.

KL911
 
Co757
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 8:28 am

Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 13):
I'm an Airbus fan myself. I find the aircraft (particularly the narrow-bodies) far, far more comfortable, smoother, quieter and they tend to keep looking relatively new for some time, whereas Boeings tend to age (atleast in the cabins) more quickly.

I'll have to disagree. But I have flown the A320 many of times and they sound and feel like they are going to fall apart on take off. I think the NG 737's are a much better choice. Overall Cabin comfort is better and more attractive, Quieter, maneuverability and handling is better, fuel effciency, and the body style and sleekness. Hope they stick with Boeing.
 
klkla
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 8:35 am

From a passengers standpoint there isn't much difference in terms of overall comfort or quietness between the two.

However, I have noticed when flying UA and HP A319/A320s (the only ones I have flown) there is a loud almost deafening buzzing sound during take off that I have never heard on any other planes.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what that sound is?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 13):
To those who say that the Boeing 737-NG family of aircraft is better than the Airbus A320 family of aircraft, I would love to hear your reasoning.

Includes, but not limited to:

- Lower OEW than respective A32X competitor. Lower landing fees and fuel burn accordingly
- More advanced wing. Faster climb and higher cruise altitude.
- Greater resale value. Lower risk investment
- Low ground access. Less ground equippement required
- More advanced navigation and avionics. Still maintains advantage over 2003 Airbus avionics update, A320 not yet available with VSD, HUD, or GPS navigation

The 737NG is an excellent airplane, and meets or exceeds the A320 in nearly all comparisons.

Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 13):
they tend to keep looking relatively new for some time, whereas Boeings tend to age (atleast in the cabins) more quickly.

Entirely the responsibility of the opperator and not the manufacture.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 6):
It was reported in this week's Flight International that the MOU was of the "loose, non-binding" variety, and was for 737-900X (if such a beast really exists).

Yeah it does. Can be in service in 18 months from the time an airline places an order, been available for about 2 years but has not reached the critical mass (about 40 aircraft) necessary for launch. It is very likely to be launched in 2005...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/210939_boeingjal07.html

Important to note that the 739X Boeing is marketing has some significant advantages over the A321-200.
 
bennett123
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 8:56 am

Personally, I find the A320 more comfortable than the B737. However I have only ever flown in a Classic.

Does anyone out there have sufficient experience of both types with a range of operators to make an honest accessment.

Besides when did airlines start asking passengers if they would prefer an A320 or a B737NG. Does any airline operate both types.
 
wukka
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Sorry, I was talking about passenger comfort. Quiet and more space.

You are? Wonderful. Please demonstrate some responsibility with your comments by showing us all some links / reports based on dB ratings inside the craft, as well as something substantial relating to seat pitch and airline operations.

Everything that I've read by you is nothing more than an inflammatory comment towards Boeing, or a happy circle-jerk over Airbus. Coming from the Netherlands with KLM being a national, would you be happy to see the 74x disappear? They flagship that Boeing, and are quite proud of it.

Stop throwing the gas on the fire. It's obvious that you get a thrill out of it, but it gets old... fast.

A true aviation enthusiast would encourage the competition. Somehow, you are stuck sucking on the teat of Airbus.

Let me pose this queston: Why do you not like Boeing aircraft? I'm looking forward to your answer.
We can agree to disagree.
 
kl911
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 9:05 am

Quoting Wukka (Reply 21):
Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Sorry, I was talking about passenger comfort. Quiet and more space.

You are? Wonderful. Please demonstrate some responsibility with your comments by showing us all some links / reports based on dB ratings inside the craft, as well as something substantial relating to seat pitch and airline operations.

Everything that I've read by you is nothing more than an inflammatory comment towards Boeing, or a happy circle-jerk over Airbus. Coming from the Netherlands with KLM being a national, would you be happy to see the 74x disappear? They flagship that Boeing, and are quite proud of it.

Stop throwing the gas on the fire. It's obvious that you get a thrill out of it, but it gets old... fast.

A true aviation enthusiast would encourage the competition. Somehow, you are stuck sucking on the teat of Airbus.

Let me pose this queston: Why do you not like Boeing aircraft? I'm looking forward to your answer.

Wow....relax..I like the 777,hate the 737 and love the airbus 320 and 340 because they are much more quiet and more spacious. Just my opinion so I don't have proof....
 
EI321
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 9:11 am

Quoting Wukka (Reply 21):
You are? Wonderful. Please demonstrate some responsibility with your comments by showing us all some links / reports based on dB ratings inside the craft, as well as something substantial relating to seat pitch and airline operations.

I dont have any links to demonstrate, but as a passenger I much prefer the A32X. It seems far quiter than any 737 I have ever flown on (Ive been on 732, 733, 734, 735, 737, 738 and 319, 320, 321). Also, the seats seem slightly wider in cattle class (but not much wider). But anyone who tries to claim the 737 is quieter is putting up a non-sense argument.

Seat pitch can be bigger on either plane, its down to how that airline specifies.

Wukka, if you have the noise specs please post them, I am interested to know.

[Edited 2005-05-18 02:15:25]
 
bennett123
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 9:13 am

Well clearly seat pitch is down to the airline, subject to the size of the cabin.

As for dB ratings, these will vary according to thrust levels, insulation, engine condition among other factors. Also two people hearing the same noise level will find it more or less intrusive.

Presumably Wukka as a true aviation enthusiast would encourage Airbus.

AirbusDriver, he said cruise altitude not Mach number. I notice that you do not quote the OEW either. As for avionics, I doubt that the 732 was built with a glass cockpit. I think that he is refering to the standard fit.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 9:34 am

Maybe Airbus will pay Lion Air to fly their planes, it seems to be their trend.
 
AirbusDriver
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 am

Quoting AirbusDriver (Reply 27):
The 777 wing has vortex generators and it's one of the most advanced airfoils ever manufactured. The 737NG wing is a modern, supercritical wing, and the AP Blended Winglet package further the 737's advantage.

Vortex generators also add drag!
And still no FBW on the B737...
 
KL808
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 10:06 am

This thread has gone way off topic.

The A vs B doesn't make sense at all.

There is no SCIENTIFIC FACT that the B737 is better than the A320 or vice versa.

If you have a scientific fact with REAL operating figures that are apples to apples then post it now, if not it ALL COMES DOWN TO our BIASES.

Mandala499 got it right. How can they afford these planes?

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
wukka
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 10:40 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 22):
Wow....relax..I like the 777,hate the 737 and love the airbus 320 and 340 because they are much more quiet and more spacious. Just my opinion so I don't have proof....

My apologies. Someone pissed in my Cheerios. However, your initial statement was implying nothing short of "fact" as to the spaciousness and quietness of A over B. I ask you to re-read your post and see how it would be taken that way.

An example would be my following statement:

Boeing aircraft offer a smoother ride than Airbus aircraft.

An old English saying is that "the proof is in the pudding". Based on what both of us have stated as "fact" with no substantial supporting evidence, we have no pudding.
We can agree to disagree.
 
davejondi
Posts: 18
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 10:55 am

Boeing rules!!! The 787 is going to mop up the A350!!!  banghead 
 
wukka
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 10:56 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 23):
Wukka, if you have the noise specs please post them, I am interested to know.

Unfortunately, I don't. That's why I asked KL911 for some stats to back up the statement.

I have also flown the same gambit of planes that you mention, and with the exception of the -200, the cabin noise differential between Airbus and Boeing craft is *in my opinion* negligible.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 24):
Presumably Wukka as a true aviation enthusiast would encourage Airbus.

I do encourage Airbus. The A346 is right up there in the list of my "favoritest, bestest" planes in the air... but I won't admit it to a Boeing basher.

(oops... did I just say that?)  white 
We can agree to disagree.
 
AirbusDriver
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 10:58 am

Quoting Davejondi (Reply 33):
Boeing rules!!! The 787 is going to mop up the A350!!! banghead

And you know that because???
All the Airbus I have flown have been better than the Boeing.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 11:16 am

Quoting AirbusDriver (Reply 32):
That A321 has a better OEW per seat than the 736 so it's a better airplane? Idiot!!!

Different aircraft are build for different mission parameters. The A318/736 being different than the A321/739. Why is it difficult for you to accept that the 738 beats the A320 in it's respective category?
 
AirbusDriver
Posts: 228
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting Co7772wuh (Reply 37):
AirheadDriver , shut up and drive ! And let the engineers do there job .

O.K.

P.S: I still think the A320 is better than the B738, What up with the 1970 Cockpit???
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:06 pm

I love todays pissing contest on A.net.....

If any of those 2 airplanes were so bad why are they competing?
If one is so clearly better than the other, why bother...
In my experience I have flown both planes and I concurr that he A320 is quieter and smoother while cruising but on full power some A320 tend to buzz... the gear down on the 73X sounds as if someone is hammering the plane, on the A320 sometimes you just dont hear it (if taken out in the last phase (flap setting 4), It gives me the willies because I dont hear it.!!!

The seat depends on the carrier but one thing I find annoying of th 73x is the flap retraction/action is kinda noisy. the seats in the aisle then to be better in the boeing product and the seats on the window seat is better on the airbus product.

If I am given a choice Id prefer the A320 but I have never said "oh darn a 737"

BTW I love when a airline buys airbus and naysayers say...nah! they must have gave them away...maybe I should start an airline, just put A and B competing and let A give the planes free and some financing to boot...

Best Regards
TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
zotan
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting AirbusDriver (Reply 35):
All the Airbus I have flown have been better than the Boeing.

How so? The window on the NG is actually 20% larger than the A320.

Quoting AirbusDriver (Reply 28):
And still no FBW on the B737...

Ah yes of course. FBW makes the plane. Why did I ever prefer the 737?

Quoting AirbusDriver (Reply 19):
Check out the picture of the cockpit. B732 with glass that all I got to say

Well the NG has a VSD. (Vertical Situation Display) This is something the A320 does not have. It also has a HUD, which the A320 also does not have. Also, Boeing just launched the new GPS landing system. It makes the plane able to land in airports that used to not be accesible during poor weather conditions.

I have a neighbor who is now a pilot for WN. He used to fly for United flying A320's. He says that he likes the 737 much better than the A320. Thats just his opinion though and Im sure there are hundreds of other pilots out there that prefer an A320 over a 737.
 
Carpethead
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:47 pm

I had to join in on today's AB battle.

737NG cruises higher.
A320 has wider fuselage width.

A person on a 737 in row 1 is going to have a different experience that the person in row 25 of an A320. Vice versa.

Interior of an aircraft is up to the airline. Some airlines have all six seats with the same width. Some airlines have put in wider middle seats thus scrunching the seats for the aisles and windows.

Depending on the config, A320 usually wins out in economy (an extra 1cm of eblow space). Both are same in first-class, always quiet and roomy.
Personally, I prefer the engine sound on the 737 (my experience with 737NG have been rather limited but endless on the classics). IAE A320 sound good but don't like the CFM powered ones.

Back to the topic:
Can Lion Air afford either new 737 or A320? Then again Cebu Pacific which operates old DC-9s and some 757 put in an order for A320s, so I guess that answers my question. Yes, if the price is right.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 1:01 pm

You could have all saved your guns, because as, Mandala499 said in reply 10, this order is highly unlikely to ever materialize. The airline we're talking about is a company entangled in a systematic strategy on half truths and outright lies, and if one would take the effort of tracing its record of marketing and press releases, one would see that very few of the big plans that have been announced over the past two years or so have ever materialized.

Lion Air currently operates a fleet of or dozen or so ageing MD80s, most of them in an advanced state of shabbyness, as well as a couple of leased in MD90s, for which the airline still hasn't been able to secure financing in order to give them a paint job. Furthermore Lion is operating four B734s. Over the past year, the airline has announced, among others, the future acquisition of up to 25 B734s, 40 or so B739-X and then the same number of A321s, as well as a number of A330s, B777s and B744s for longhaul flights to all kinds of exotic destinations. Nothing has ever come of it and nothing will come of this announcement either.

This is an airline in trouble, in fact, one could hardly call it an airline, because with its increasingly worrying safety record, its questionable service levels and its low-level customer base for whom the only thing that ever counts is the lowest possible fare, this airline is actually an elevated bus company in the best of Indonesian traditions.

This airline doesn't have the customer base to operate a fleet of 60 aircraft, let alone pay for them! Anyone familiar with the Indonesian aviation scene could tell you stories about the state of local airports here, and that it's highly unlikely that certain aircraft types would ever be able to operate here. Again, the only thing that matters for Lion's customer base are low fares - that is low as in USD20 for a 1.5 hour flight, all taxed included - so I wonder how Lion would ever generate enough cash flow to pay for even half a dozen of these jets.

Let's stop talking nonsense here and focus on real airlines...
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 1:23 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 46):
I think we need to get back to the topic, how is Lion Air going to do this deal?

What a good idea! Please read Mandala499's post as well as mine, on the unlikelihood that any of these plans will ever materialize!
 
mandala499
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 1:58 pm

HB-IWC, no need to go and read the original reply but reading this one hopefully would be enough!

KL808,
Thank you...

Now for the others who are typing furiously in their own AvB war on this thread...

Lion? Passenger comfort? A320 or 737 more comfortable... to those who are making an AvB saga out of this let me tell you one thing... THIS AIRLINE DOESN'T CARE!

Better resale value? Let me say it again... THIS AIRLINE DOESN'T CARE... they fly the planes to breaking point !

Quieter? Again... This airline doesn't care... besides, only stage III is in force from 2006.

More advanced avionics/navigation? HUDs? Again, this airline doesn't care... Hey, they even fly their MD80s using outdated European Databases... or even switch them off!

This airline will jam pack as many pax as they can into the airplane, jam pack as many flight attendants onto the plane (yes, one witness has said they've EVEN SAT ON THE FLOOR DURING TAKE OFF AND LANDINGs) to make the pax feel like they're getting service... and then their ground crew steal/loot pax baggage (sad isn't it?).

"Maybe Airbus will pay Lion Air to fly their planes, it seems to be their trend."

Well, knowing the current situation Airbus may actually have to pay Lion Air to fly the Airbuses... and maybe Boeing have to do so to get an NG in Lion colours!

"and if one would take the effort of tracing its record of marketing and press releases, one would see that very few of the big plans that have been announced over the past two years or so have ever materialized."

Well, add a few factual lies and blatant accusations into there too! Documented!

"for which the airline still hasn't been able to secure financing in order to give them a paint job" <--- ONE IS PAINTED! THEY'VE PAINTED ONE!  Smile

Certain Maintenance facilities detained their overhauled aircraft pending payments...

Their Denpasar-Manila-Seoul is closed... after only a few weeks despite the fanfare in the local media about it! (Come on, DPS-MNL-ICN on 734s??????? gimme a break)

Now, ordering 60 aircraft? If I was Boeing or Airbus and looking at the outlook for the second hand market of my aircraft, I would actually AVOID selling planes to this airline...

The original news furor 2 months ago was 739X vs A321s and the value they've mentioned is rather extortionate! $2.4 Billion for 40 planes, making them 80m USD per aircraft!

Now technicals...
Within Indonesia, 739s and A321s can only operate into Banda Aceh, Medan, Palembang (once the old runway have finished resurfacing), Jakarta, Batam, Balikpapan, Surabaya, Denpasar, Makassar and Manado... Nowhere else... the aircraft's ACN is too high!

Some "technical experts" doubt that at MTOW the A321s (and 739s) would be legal taking off Manado (18 OR 36) and Makassar 13 due to surrounding terrain...

So now... can they absorb 60 of these planes? or even 40 739s and A321s... where the hell are they going to fly them? With 40 planes flying regional out of Indonesia and yes, 180 - 220 seaters... well that just sounds way off this galaxy at the moment...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 2:07 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 10):

That sounds like Lion Air is one screwed up airline.....as if we all didn't know already.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Sorry, I was talking about passenger comfort. Quiet and more space.

As if the non-aviations buffs would know the difference between the A320 and B737 size

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 20):
Personally, I find the A320 more comfortable than the B737. However I have only ever flown in a Classic.

Does anyone out there have sufficient experience of both types with a range of operators to make an honest accessment.

Same, but judging the classic B737 and A320 is an unfair comparasion
 
KL808
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Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 2:18 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 31):
Quoting KL808 (Reply 29):
There is no SCIENTIFIC FACT that the B737 is better than the A320 or vice versa.

Oh please.. how do airlines make decisions when purchasing products? One aircraft will be better or worse for an airline depending on the parameters an airline needs satisfied.

well said... But the argument is about which aircraft is better, therefore my statement that there's no scientific FACT that the B737 is better than the A320 or vice versa stands.

Where is your PROOF that the B737 is better than A320 or vice versa?

If the B737 was the best aircraft in the market then EVERYONE would buy them and no carrier would buy the A320 or vice versa. PERIOD

In the end of the day it comes down to our own BIASES.
DfwRevolution and AirbusDriver We definitely know what aircrafts you like, but neither of you have given substantial proof that one is superior to the other.
One Aircraft might excel in one area yet lag in another.

In conclusion LETS GET BACK TO THE TOPIC.

Well I believe this topic has been beaten to death.

You guys are a like a bunch kids in elementary school

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 2:35 pm

Futher to all previous comments about Lion Air, I have taken the effort to dig up some of its press releases over the past two years:

  • Lion will add MD80s and grow its fleet to 60 units by the end of 2003 ---> the highest number of MD80s in operation was 23, and the airline is now down to around 15 units, some of which are now operating for subsidiary Wings;

  • Lion will soon add widebody capacity (several press releases in 2003 and 2004) ---> they announced first A330s, and later factory fresh B777s, and earlier this year even B744s, nothing has ever come of it;

  • Lion will be operating 20 B734s by the end of 2004 ---> as we speak the airline is operating a grand total of 4 B734 airframes;

  • Lion will soon be starting construction of its own terminal at Jakarta's Soekarno Hatta International Airport (2003) ---> we're still waiting for the first truck of soil to be moved from there, as a matter of fact nobody (not even the airport authority) really knows where that Lion terminal was supposed to be erected;

  • Lion has signed a lease with the Halim Perdanakusuma Airport in Jakarta and will soon be moving all operations over there, effectively operating its own airport (2004) ---> nobody has ever heard anything about these big plans after this big announcement, because, as it turned out, the Halim Perdankusuma airport didn't know anything about the deal, nor would it be possible to relocate Lion operations there, because the place is too small;

  • Lion will soon be flying to a variety of international destinations (2003 and 2004) ---> flights to the following destinations were announced at various points but never materialized: Amsterdam, Paris, Dubai, India (unspecified), Bangkok, CAnton, Hongkong, Tokyo and Sydney;

  • Lion will be opening routes to Singpore, Saigon, Manila, Busan and Seoul (2004 and 2005) ---> Manila and Seoul were closed after a week, Saigon lasted a bit longer but suffered heavy losses, Busan never started, and the initial schedule of 4 daily flight to Singapore is now down to a single daily flight;

The list goes on, as this airline further entangles itself in a web of absurdities and outright lies, that make the latest press release regarding the acquisition of a large B739/A320 fleet just another good laugh for insiders of the Indonesian aviation scene.
 
mandala499
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 3:13 pm

Let's see...

18 February 2005:
"Lion orders 40 737NGs"...
It was announced that Lion signed the deal to buy 40 737-900s. It was said to have been signed by Lion's CEO and Boeing's Director International Sales Commercial Airplanes, Paul Righi.

28 February 2005:
"Airbus and Boeing chases Lion"
Both offering discounts of 25 - 30%.
Lion has 40% of domestic market share.
Announced that in the beginning of February, they signed an MOU to purchase 40 739s at US$60m each...

Conclusion: So where was the order? The news release on 18th Feb must have been a "PR spin!"

One Indonesian online aviation forum attacked the validity of such order and a week later the 2nd release came out...

17th February 2005:
"Lion will add 20 aircraft"... quoting the CEO's comments from the week before...
15 734s and 5 MD90s. Quotes to "Bisnis Indonesia" that:
- Lion now leases directly from Boeing via its subsidiary and no longer through brokers... "15 B734s from GECAS which is a Boeing subsidiary" and "5 MD90s from CIT which is a McDonnell Douglas subsidiary prior to the Boeing McDonnell Douglas merger."
- "The trust from the manufacturer is evident thanks to this deal.
- "The MD90s were built in year 2000"

GUESS WHAT? GECAS is part of GE group, and CIT isn't anywhere in MD or Boeing's list of subsidiary.

Furthermore... It was evident even before delivery that none of the post 2000 MD90 were up for lease... and that the MD90s were ex Reno Air built 96-97.

And then I got an email from one of the VPs of CIT Aerospace that said "CIT doesn't have MD-90s in its portfolio. Hope this answers your question."...

Lion's reaction in this Indonesian aviation online forum was from one of the members who claims to be an engineer at Lion saying it must have been the newspaper that got it wrong... And well, it was so wrong that this news have spread to other countries with the error...

Well... then... You decide whether the 60 NGs or Airbuses will come...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
lehpron
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 3:28 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 6):
and was for 737-900X (if such a beast really exists).

Isn't it an "ER" now? Boeing is really milking the 737, why on Earth if they plan to replace it?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 3:42 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 54):
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 6):
and was for 737-900X (if such a beast really exists).

Isn't it an "ER" now?

Don't think the B739X has been named the -900ER, but it most likly will be knowen as the -900ER
 
intothinair
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:05 pm

RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 4:33 pm

Thanks for all that information.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 52):
Lion will soon be flying to a variety of international destinations (2003 and 2004) ---> flights to the following destinations were announced at various points but never materialized: Amsterdam, Paris, Dubai, India (unspecified), Bangkok, CAnton, Hongkong, Tokyo and Sydney;

Lion Air flying to Europe, don't think this will ever happen, amusing information though, as well as the "Factory fresh 777's"
So, seems like Lion Air has been mentioning a lot of false information, let's hope this time they are correct(From what I've heard from Mandela499 and HB-IWC, seems like this MIGHT take some more time for them to order)let's hope not.
I'd be great if Lion Air had enough money to afford such a big aircraft deal!

Cheers, Konstantin G.
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 5:11 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 5):
Except the 737....by a few thousand orders

Well,

A320 family: 3400 orders in 20 years
737 family: 5300 orders in 40 years

The trend is in favour of the A320  Smile
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 5:13 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 57):
Quoting Gkirk (Reply 5):
Except the 737....by a few thousand orders

Well,

A320 family: 3400 orders in 20 years
737 family: 5300 orders in 40 years

The trend is in favour of the A320

How many B737NGs have been sold compared to A320?
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 5:24 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 58):
Quoting Sebolino (Reply 57):
Quoting Gkirk (Reply 5):
Except the 737....by a few thousand orders

Well,

A320 family: 3400 orders in 20 years
737 family: 5300 orders in 40 years

The trend is in favour of the A320

How many B737NGs have been sold compared to A320?

Just done some quick research and 2460 B737NGs have been sold since the B737NG was launched so the B737NG looks more popular
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Lion Air Close To A 60 Aircraft Order!

Wed May 18, 2005 5:27 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 59):
Just done some quick research and 2460 B737NGs have been sold since the B737NG was launched so the B737NG looks more popular

Correct.

It's probably time for Airbus to make an A320 replacement.

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